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vialli82 said:
Well except for Stadium, it's the same as ML with fakes players to me. But whatever.
I don't see what's exceptionnal, i don't dream it from years.
About regens there was a Q/A survey dating from 2020 asking if we prefers to have ne
w players or keep the regens.
Personnally i don't think it's impossible for PES 2022 to introduce a "no regen" system.
That's the only think i really want for ML to be honest.... But my main concern, what i really dream of, is not about ML, but on edit mode.

-To be able to create teams/leagues instead of replacing the 101 fakes teams in game
-Also, gives us the option to put a market value on every created player (they've got a system based on Reputation/hidden stats + Overall... But it's not that accurate)
-And finally, the option to completely remove a player from participating in ML / Not even on Free agents. I'm sick of all those players with blank faces, no information, some don't even exist IRL (such as in AFC CL) and i just don't want them to flow all around the teams on ML. Just a way to get rid of some players. So one "Free Agents" section, and one "Deleted" section where you put some players you don't want to participate in Master league.

Also why they don't f***ing update AFC CL? I personnally think it's lazyness. Teams aren't right and dating from May/June 2020. I saw it once one PES 2020 that they've updated some faces (who were blank > means "0" in every parameters)

If i'm right or remember well, they used to up to date AFC on the first time it appeared in game... Don't remember if it was on PES 2014.
The system from 2010-2013 with Libertadores hidden in ML was way better and didn't caused any kind of duplicated players.

So two option : Or they update AFC (and we won't get duplicates) or they hide it like they've did before with Libertadores (as they were "locked" in a certain season such as AFC CL)
It's super simple. But i'm tired and don't like that much to have to remove some players from those teams for not having twice for example, like one year, twice one big player who moved for one year in Qatar then come back to for example, Celta Vigo.
Click to expand...
That's one big thing people don't talk about. But don't you see that what you said has actually an influence on ML? Like the market value is one critical point for a successful ML campain.

I also would like to see an "expandable" database, I would really like to experience more possibilities as I like playing and trying what I can do with databases.

And to comment on the regen stuff. I think KONAMI has a solution but they never though about it. What is it? You see, KONAMI already made deals with multiple teams like Atalanta, Lazio etc... why not use Atalanta Academy as the youth team when you choose Atalanta as the team you want to manage in ML and so on for the other teams. For the unlicensed team they could have just put some 15 to 20 fake players for each specific team which means they won't be duplicated.

That is really one of my biggest concerns about PES really...
 
In regards to master league would be a great start if they categorised the total money made in 5 areas to invest
1. Scouting
2. Youth development
3. Medical
4. Transfers
5. Stadium improvements
Everyone would have a different story and just by doing something as simple as that would increase playing time, as much as I fkn hate micro transactions unfortunately we have no choice for now it’s here to stay but they could intergrate that into the ML for those that don’t have the patience to grind it out, lot of ideas where they Konami can benefit with ML micro transactions
 
Anybody remember when they've changed engines in the past?
Each time it's happened they delivered a shell of a game. With each iteration it took 3-4yrs to fix gameplay to a functional level, and add back in content that was there previously.
Why is this time gonna be different? Myclub 2022 with exhibition mode × infinity for ML lol.

If they've just copy n pasted their Reliant Robin chassis code over (to save dev time), but covered it with a Ferrari body it's still gonna drive like a piece of shit. Tbh, we'll be lucky if it has wheels and brakes, nevermind suspension, gears, seats etc.

Learning the limitations of the fox engine was their last excuse. Wonder if they'll come up with a new one this time round?
 
The Moroccan said:
That's one big thing people don't talk about. But don't you see that what you said has actually an influence on ML? Like the market value is one critical point for a successful ML campain.

I also would like to see an "expandable" database, I would really like to experience more possibilities as I like playing and trying what I can do with databases.
Click to expand...

1) Yeah, that was exactly my point : all i said was for a better ML/Career mode. And yes, it's a critical points. The issue is that there's in one side players with Market Value assigned regarding transfermart, and on the other part created players (or original PES players) with no market value assigned but an algorithm ONLY based on the Overall. But age count, and position too... So i'm not against what they tried to do, about the algorithm.

But a 300K 35 years old CF is a pretty good value for his age, could be 75 OVR... But a 25 years old with the same value will got 66-69. That's the problem in their algorithm, as market value is not so simple. Firstly, it's agents and people who assign it, regarding performance and potential... And also 200k in a rich club/country doesn't mean the same as in a relative poor one.

To be brief : yes you should be able to assign a market value, but not obligatory. You can leave "automatic" and a more advanced algorithm with the parameters i gived (age/stats/position/reputation>potential) would do the maths. If you create a fantasy team for example.
Personnally, if i edit i would gives TM market value and that's all. Then it will increase, still the same, or decrease on ML regarding performances.

I readed an article about "how to define a player market value", and to be honest it was pretty complicated. Just google it if you want, i don't even know if that article exist anymore but they were others talking about it.
We have to remember that it's still a game, so even with the automatic system i purpose, the approximation would be far better than what we have now and we would got more , but it will never be perfect. At least... It will be correctly standardised. It's not the case now unfortunately...

2) I agree about expandable database. But i don't want fakes teams everywhere : create a league or a single team (continent/country etc.). One thing is that i got absolutely no idea how those created league will be "incorporated" in the whole database when you will start ML. It's kinda complicated... The only way to me is that they've got to introduce a rule for every supposed country in Continental (Champion's, Europa, AFC, Libertadores), in advance. But the first year of ML will always be the same i suppose. There's a way : advanced settings, and you select yourself which created teams will participate, if you don't it will be the strongest ones (it's the current system when you play ML : PES select for example Dortmund as a 4th country participating, or America if you create Liga MX etc. before the start. Personnally that's one thing i don't found that bad)

But it's not and never be a Manager game, so there will be a bit of randomness for those CL (or lower) continental cup qualifications. I don't believe at all they will goes that far to be honest. Fifa don't have that problem, as there's no created teams.
So, we need to be realistic, FM don't have to handle tons of facebuilds, appeareance, it's data only and many of those data are randomly given for many players... No game is perfect, neither FM in terms of realism.

In brief about it : gives us something credible and more or less logical, and i think we'll be satisfied, in Master League. Changes was doable with the old engine. Fox was a nightmare to changes and add stuffs (it was even far easier on PS3 era before PES 2014) and Unreal has a capacity in terms of O.S. to open much more door than the old PES O.S. and even more than FOX (if you do the maths, FOX was the most restrictive of the 3 O.S. engine lol)
It's not a fake excuse : you just got to take a look at before. It was far more open in editing/adding new features terms.

Also the database system is outdated (i won't talk about it), it needs a global restoration (AFC CL duplicates, Live Updates, etc.)
 
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Dscru said:
Anybody remember when they've changed engines in the past?
Each time it's happened they delivered a shell of a game. With each iteration it took 3-4yrs to fix gameplay to a functional level, and add back in content that was there previously.
Why is this time gonna be different? Myclub 2022 with exhibition mode × infinity for ML lol.

If they've just copy n pasted their Reliant Robin chassis code over (to save dev time), but covered it with a Ferrari body it's still gonna drive like a piece of shit. Tbh, we'll be lucky if it has wheels and brakes, nevermind suspension, gears, seats etc.

Learning the limitations of the fox engine was their last excuse. Wonder if they'll come up with a new one this time round?
Click to expand...
The last time they switched to Fox Engine they didn't even readd things. We never had back tons of things we had on Ps3 games, like stadium editor.
 
Ribas2810 said:
Guys, follow my mood till 21st of July :WHISTLE:

"I don't expect anything, but i'm already disappointed"
Click to expand...
I see what you did there...
Eb8uy_kU0AIMfP3.jpg


Cuoricino per la citazione.
 
Jimi_Zuko said:
In regards to master league would be a great start if they categorised the total money made in 5 areas to invest
1. Scouting
2. Youth development
3. Medical
4. Transfers
5. Stadium improvements
Everyone would have a different story and just by doing something as simple as that would increase playing time, as much as I fkn hate micro transactions unfortunately we have no choice for now it’s here to stay but they could intergrate that into the ML for those that don’t have the patience to grind it out, lot of ideas where they Konami can benefit with ML micro transactions
Click to expand...

I like all these, I wish they would also take into consideration teams that are ran differently like Athletic Bilbao who only sign basque players, in ML they should rely solely on their scouting and youth development for their players I wish they could code this in somehow
 
Dscru said:
Anybody remember when they've changed engines in the past?
Each time it's happened they delivered a shell of a game. With each iteration it took 3-4yrs to fix gameplay to a functional level, and add back in content that was there previously.
Why is this time gonna be different? Myclub 2022 with exhibition mode × infinity for ML lol.

If they've just copy n pasted their Reliant Robin chassis code over (to save dev time), but covered it with a Ferrari body it's still gonna drive like a piece of shit. Tbh, we'll be lucky if it has wheels and brakes, nevermind suspension, gears, seats etc.

Learning the limitations of the fox engine was their last excuse. Wonder if they'll come up with a new one this time round?
Click to expand...
True, this did indeed happen going from PES6 to PES2008, and then it happened again going from PES2013 to PES2014, so the track record from Konami when changing engines is a huge red flag, however, and I don't recall if this was an engine change or just a huge improvement on the same engine, but going from PES2010 to PES2011 we got two games that were completely different, with PES2011 retaining most of the content from it's predecessor, while also adding new stuff, so if this was indeed an engine change too, then they did get it right at some point, right now all we can do is hope that they can pull something along those lines off again, because if they have another disaster launch like PES2008 and PES2014 I'm not sure if they could recover, then we'd officially have a monopoly and the state of football gaming would manage to get even worse.
 
I think what FIFA are doing with hyper motion is being understated although realistically, they too are too scared to alter the gameplay too much in case of putting of the ultimate team babies.

However, it’s at least innovative moving away from rigid mo-cap.

With PES there’s no innovation at all. Copy and paste from 2015.
 
Is ultra realistic movement the way too go?
Maybe in the future, but I think for now both Konami and EA need to focus on making their games responsive again. Both games, pes more than fifa, feels like playing with input lag.
And imo this is due to the animations. Although ecstatically it looks good that a player makes an ultra realistic move before passing, this move takes a few extra milliseconds before the actual pass is made, giving you the feeling of unresponsiveness. If the animation was simpler and thus quicker it would be much more responsive. Yes the game would look less realistic, but the gameplay would be better.
I am sure in the future realistic animations can be combined with quick response times, but until then they should focus on responsiveness first.
 
Rayven_king said:
I like all these, I wish they would also take into consideration teams that are ran differently like Athletic Bilbao who only sign basque players, in ML they should rely solely on their scouting and youth development for their players I wish they could code this in somehow
Click to expand...
Yeah kind of like NBA2K where each club runs things very differently from the other
 
SKYHIGHTREES said:
wow can't wait for the 21st, that will be make or break...
imagine a game where everyone is forced to play manual as there is no PA1,2,3? I long for those days...
in the future i will make that game, wait on me
Click to expand...
just a week to go... fingers crossed!

the majority would probably go berserk! :LOL:

i'll be waiting for sure! :)
 
SKYHIGHTREES said:
wow can't wait for the 21st, that will be make or break...
imagine a game where everyone is forced to play manual as there is no PA1,2,3? I long for those days...
in the future i will make that game, wait on me
Click to expand...
I believe FIFA 2002 World Cup on the PS1 was FUMA by default, though I never played it, so I'm not 100% sure about that one.
 
Dillion said:
Is ultra realistic movement the way too go?
Maybe in the future, but I think for now both Konami and EA need to focus on making their games responsive again. Both games, pes more than fifa, feels like playing with input lag.
And imo this is due to the animations. Although ecstatically it looks good that a player makes an ultra realistic move before passing, this move takes a few extra milliseconds before the actual pass is made, giving you the feeling of unresponsiveness. If the animation was simpler and thus quicker it would be much more responsive. Yes the game would look less realistic, but the gameplay would be better.
I am sure in the future realistic animations can be combined with quick response times, but until then they should focus on responsiveness first.
Click to expand...

I deffinetly agree on this. The time we need animations to finish, so that the action we choose to do, actually happens has broken the game even more since PES 2014.

In PS2 times we did not have this 1 or 2 sec animations, the game was responsive and whatching the animations now on youtube i dont think they are that less realistic than now. Sure they were faster but that was the joy of PES, was it´s responsiveness and the balance between sim and Arcade.
Fifa on this does a lot better, but at the expense of the iceskating feeling. PEs back then did it perfectly, we had all elements correctly balanced, it was responsive, it had weight and inercia.

Now once you enter a skill animation it´s like an RPG were you select the skill the defender select what to do and we wait 2sec to see if it results or not, sometimes its like playing Captain Tsubasa.

I wonder many many times in my head, if NO ONE in PES Dev team remembers to check how those PS2 games were made, and the code behind it, regarding animations, shooting, movement, AI etc, just to try and adapt it to this new game engines, with more graphic fidelity, and smother transitions, making what was already extremelly good into something even better.

Also regarding the full manual aspecth, i am of the opinion tha tit should only be optional. I understand the people who like it, but for my it takes down the purpose of stats, if you are abble to choose the exact direction and strenght on a pass, what differs a player like Pirlo from a player like Maguire. I guess with full manual all that differs in players are physicall attributes like stamina, speed, strenght, height, and not skill attribues like pass accuracy, shot accuracy. And that is one of the things that always distiguished PES from FIFA in my opinion, the fact that stats matter, and make a big impact in the way we could play.
 
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vialli82 said:
1) Yeah, that was exactly my point : all i said was for a better ML/Career mode. And yes, it's a critical points. The issue is that there's in one side players with Market Value assigned regarding transfermart, and on the other part created players (or original PES players) with no market value assigned but an algorithm ONLY based on the Overall. But age count, and position too... So i'm not against what they tried to do, about the algorithm.

But a 300K 35 years old CF is a pretty good value for his age, could be 75 OVR... But a 25 years old with the same value will got 66-69. That's the problem in their algorithm, as market value is not so simple. Firstly, it's agents and people who assign it, regarding performance and potential... And also 200k in a rich club/country doesn't mean the same as in a relative poor one.

To be brief : yes you should be able to assign a market value, but not obligatory. You can leave "automatic" and a more advanced algorithm with the parameters i gived (age/stats/position/reputation>potential) would do the maths. If you create a fantasy team for example.
Personnally, if i edit i would gives TM market value and that's all. Then it will increase, still the same, or decrease on ML regarding performances.

I readed an article about "how to define a player market value", and to be honest it was pretty complicated. Just google it if you want, i don't even know if that article exist anymore but they were others talking about it.
We have to remember that it's still a game, so even with the automatic system i purpose, the approximation would be far better than what we have now and we would got more , but it will never be perfect. At least... It will be correctly standardised. It's not the case now unfortunately...
Click to expand...
In principle, KONAMI are just too lazy to assign market value to the rest of the players, or just too lazy to implement an algorithm just like you said.
vialli82 said:
2) I agree about expandable database. But i don't want fakes teams everywhere : create a league or a single team (continent/country etc.). One thing is that i got absolutely no idea how those created league will be "incorporated" in the whole database when you will start ML. It's kinda complicated... The only way to me is that they've got to introduce a rule for every supposed country in Continental (Champion's, Europa, AFC, Libertadores), in advance. But the first year of ML will always be the same i suppose. There's a way : advanced settings, and you select yourself which created teams will participate, if you don't it will be the strongest ones (it's the current system when you play ML : PES select for example Dortmund as a 4th country participating, or America if you create Liga MX etc. before the start. Personnally that's one thing i don't found that bad)
Click to expand...
It was actually doable, you finish creating the league and then create the competition, assign a calendar, assign some promotion or continental qualification and you're done. But I get your point about the fake teams (I don't want to give FIFA as an example but f*** it), KONAMI should follow its concurrent's steps.

Just to avoid misunderstanding @vialli82 , by "fake teams" you mean the "fictive teams" right ?
 
Mikhail said:
Yeah it would be terrible.

some of us like the default controls - I’ve used them since ISS Pro Evolution Soccer.

This thing that you have to play manual to enjoy a football game is ridiculous and it’s snobbery.
Click to expand...
Dillion said:
Is ultra realistic movement the way too go?
Maybe in the future, but I think for now both Konami and EA need to focus on making their games responsive again. Both games, pes more than fifa, feels like playing with input lag.
And imo this is due to the animations. Although ecstatically it looks good that a player makes an ultra realistic move before passing, this move takes a few extra milliseconds before the actual pass is made, giving you the feeling of unresponsiveness. If the animation was simpler and thus quicker it would be much more responsive. Yes the game would look less realistic, but the gameplay would be better.
I am sure in the future realistic animations can be combined with quick response times, but until then they should focus on responsiveness first.
Click to expand...

Completely agree on this. Current games feel like I'm not playing it, it feels like I'm playing a guessing game with my inputs since all of the actions have too much delay. I personally don't like it at all.

You made a good point about the accuracy stats too.

As for me, there is no way to play in manual since I like playing with D-pads and keyboards- meaning I'm limited to 6 directions. Reason I play like this is because I feel comfortable playing on keyboard and I tried playing with gamepad's analogue sticks a lot. I just don't feel comfortable with it.
 
Agree. I´ve been playing FUMA for a couple months now. Started on Pro level and recently moved to TP. It´s really easy to notice the only increase in dificulty is not how good the CPU plays, but how bad your players become. On some matches, it´s like I´m playing with passing assist, for worse. The same type of pass suddently has a diferent direction from my inpuct, not to mention the boost that CPU gets on physical atributes. Also, player stats work based on "relativity"; I´ve noticed this a long time ago, and I can see it all the time. When I play against a better side, my players are slower and heavier for example, I also have a hard time doing simple things like turning with the ball, awareness and reaction times are worse, etc. So there´s always this feeling; The outcome of the match is always a consequence of how good/bad my players perform, and not how good/bad the CPU performs. This seems legit, but the problem is that my team´s performance is not related to my input, instead it´s related to an apparent random form that the game decides for itself.
 
xicpanad said:
Agree. I´ve been playing FUMA for a couple months now. Started on Pro level and recently moved to TP. It´s really easy to notice the only increase in dificulty is not how good the CPU plays, but how bad your players become. On some matches, it´s like I´m playing with passing assist, for worse. The same type of pass suddently has a diferent direction from my inpuct, not to mention the boost that CPU gets on physical atributes. Also, player stats work based on "relativity"; I´ve noticed this a long time ago, and I can see it all the time. When I play against a better side, my players are slower and heavier for example, I also have a hard time doing simple things like turning with the ball, awareness and reaction times are worse, etc. So there´s always this feeling; The outcome of the match is always a consequence of how good/bad my players perform, and not how good/bad the CPU performs. This seems legit, but the problem is that my team´s performance is not related to my input, instead it´s related to an apparent random form that the game decides for itself.
Click to expand...
This has been part of PES for as long as I can remember. As an angsty teenager I remember nearly smashing controllers because of this. Playing on a high difficulty used to mean your striker taking a couple of extra touches when you were 1-on-1 with the goalkeeper, for example, and running straight into him. Infuriating.

Looking at the situation back then, I get it - you couldn't use a PSX chipset and make a challenging, organic AI. If you didn't allow the AI to cheat, you'd beat it every time. Yet - here we are on PS5s, and it's never gone away...

But I suppose the flip-side is what the other game suffers with, i.e. they can't make it hard enough without making Barnsley dribble like Barcelona, which has you turning the console off immediately.
 
Chris Davies said:
This has been part of PES for as long as I can remember. As an angsty teenager I remember nearly smashing controllers because of this. Playing on a high difficulty used to mean your striker taking a couple of extra touches when you were 1-on-1 with the goalkeeper, for example, and running straight into him. Infuriating.

Looking at the situation back then, I get it - you couldn't use a PSX chipset and make a challenging, organic AI. If you didn't allow the AI to cheat, you'd beat it every time. Yet - here we are on PS5s, and it's never gone away...

But I suppose the flip-side is what the other game suffers with, i.e. they can't make it hard enough without making Barnsley dribble like Barcelona, which has you turning the console off immediately.
Click to expand...
I’m asking the community: how can organic difficulty level be achieved?
let’s get a bit more detailed here!

making your own players at hand/controller behave worse or making the opponent AI less error prone are the current tools used, if Im correct.
how could this be changed? Let’s assume the teams in a video game do exactly play their tactics like in real life, and 6er dropping back to defend ;) , what are the real life values that make Barnsley stand out for a day or a 2 week streak for example and how could this be translated into a video game?
 
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