The Retro-PES Corner

Although with best intentions I think I have more of a tentative NY retro PES list.

1) Get this ML defaults league properly up and running (I have actually played the first match of the season and might get to the next one today actually)

2) Convert Amador to PES 13. This should be fairly straightforward player wise as it's just a case of juggling the csv files around a bit. Of course there's more team slots on 13 than 6 so that might develop into more and with the South American part then.... oh bugger. This is probably why I keep putting this off! :D

I'd love to convert Amador to PES3 but now I've been spoiled with the csv import of the PES6 editor I just can't bring myself to edit manually to that extent any more. I did convert two teams about a year ago just to see what it was like but that was it. By the way if someone does want to convert it feel free! A conversion to PES 5 might be possible with @marqisspes6 working on something to import teams into PES 5. Can you begin to imagine the foul count in PES 5 on Amador? :LOL:

3) Get the editing mojo back which at the moment has completely left me. I find it comes and goes like that though.

4) Dependent on 3, I'm tempted to do a UK counties OF with real current players based on their place of birth.

5) Do an Amador ML.
 
mattmid said:
Although with best intentions I think I have more of a tentative NY retro PES list.

1) Get this ML defaults league properly up and running (I have actually played the first match of the season and might get to the next one today actually)

2) Convert Amador to PES 13. This should be fairly straightforward player wise as it's just a case of juggling the csv files around a bit. Of course there's more team slots on 13 than 6 so that might develop into more and with the South American part then.... oh bugger. This is probably why I keep putting this off! :D

I'd love to convert Amador to PES3 but now I've been spoiled with the csv import of the PES6 editor I just can't bring myself to edit manually to that extent any more. I did convert two teams about a year ago just to see what it was like but that was it. By the way if someone does want to convert it feel free! A conversion to PES 5 might be possible with @marqisspes6 working on something to import teams into PES 5. Can you begin to imagine the foul count in PES 5 on Amador? :LOL:

3) Get the editing mojo back which at the moment has completely left me. I find it comes and goes like that though.

4) Dependent on 3, I'm tempted to do a UK counties OF with real current players based on their place of birth.

5) Do an Amador ML.
Click to expand...

what's amador mod? haha if you gave me into a readable format then i can create the mdb file for importing with dkz database editor, i believe almost all data can be imported
 
@Madmac79 as you asked many times, as me, where is the KCEO production team. While i was searhing if KONAMI will give something for Switch, if found this:


"I internally probed the possibility, because I'm a big fan of the International Superstar Soccer saga , and for me it would be great to have it back again, and if it's Switch, better, because I grew up playing Nintendo. But when we asked the production team internally if it was possible or not, I found something that surprised me: the team that made International Superstar Soccer, it is a totally different team [from the one which makes] PES.

The truth that surprised me and they said it is difficult, because it is something that belongs to someone else. I ran into that. I'm not saying it can never happen, but you have to look at who was working at that time in that game and see how we can resurrect it. It surprised me. It is an anecdote, but hopefully we can have it. For us older people, we would like to have something more retro."

That said by Robbye Ron, PES brand manager for Latin America . What's socking for me is, that they needed to internal ask something that us the fans, know it since 15 years ago. ISS was by KCEO , WEPES by KCET.

If what said by this brand manager is true, seems that KCEO team is missing in action... What does not make sense to me is that, it is known that even the PES development team themselves, have changed since PS2-era. Is n't it obvious that the ISS team would not be the same with the current-era PES development team?

Source: https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...h_is_getting_closer_says_series_brand_manager
 
@slamsoze yeah, a bit bizarre for him to not know, especially for somebody with his job who seems to also be an old school guy, while for us it's kinda common basic knowledge.

By the way, what he said sounds interesting, the whole "more retro" bit I mean. Having a new team working with a game in the spirit of old ISS would already be something to look forward to. Sad thing is that I think it will all stay dead letter, but one can dream right?
 
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10 games in , this is how everything stands in my Master League
 
I made a little goal compilation of all the goals I scored during my Retro PES pilgrimage this past year, How could anyone look at the variety and the animations and say these games look too old to play?

This year has been brutal for us all but it's been nice to find distractions in the little things, especially video games, specifically football games. These tournaments have been a journey, told stories the only way PES can and certainly kept me busy.

Thanks to everyone in this magical corner for your support, company and encouragement.

Here's to another year of living in the past!

A look back at some of the incredible goals scored during our memorable Retro PES & FIFA tournaments throughout this past year!

 
What was it about that 2002-2006 period for sports games? Seems like there's so many absolute classics released at that time, not just football games, and there were many other decent sports games we just don't get any more.

Grand Prix 4 (2002), NHL 04 (community still updates it), Championship Manager 4, NFL 2K5/Madden 2005 (still the best franchise modes), Fight Night series was alive, MVP Baseball 2005, Tiger Woods games, Links 2003, Top Spin/Virtua Tennis both being decent, Codemasters snooker games etc... Probably missed out loads of stuff.

Seems like these days sports games can be absolute dross and sell solely on being the only option on the market and people will buy the games every time just because they are a fan of that sport.
 
They were still just that - games. Enjoyable hobby.

Two things changed it imho:

1.) blindly chasing after "simulation" style (especially PES), not realizing it takes so bloody much to create an actual, proper simulation of literally anything, not to mention things as complex as team sports. Amount of things needed to be represented (100% accurately) to actually simulate something is just insane. Instead of keeping it simple, PES went opposite path and started complicating shit.

I can absolutely tell you - PES 6 with PES 2008-2013 interface and game modes would be absolute killer. PS2 versions from that era seem to have extremely good opinions. Instead of expanding Master League they went for "rEaLiStIc GaMePlAy" and now we reached the script kingdom, because sheer amount of factors to simulate is impossible to recreate so conami (and ea) just put some blanket modifiers over it to make it "harder".

I'm playing WE 2000 rn (second game in Flipper's post actually) and as barebone and simple as it is, it's just pure fucken fun! Games were meant to be fun, not to be some space age simulator bullshit.

2.) Gacha Modes - people will pay millions just to get that in-form black ball historical moment super-rare holo Ronaldo, even when odds are 1:6900000. We used to collect Panini stickers back in the day, today you collect cards / black balls / whatever.

Some of my friends play this game called Genshin Impact and it's basically MyClub except with titty waifus. Gameplay's probably better too.

In 2006 I thought by 2016 I would be able to play Master League online with friends, as in start a savegame and have 4 people running their teams in one world.
How wrong I was!! 🐑

tl;dr overcomplicated for no reason and waifu collector game modes. No fuckens given though, there are enough PES titles to keep me going forever 🐑

only solution would be some third party stepping up and making completely license-free game with its own teams and players, coz otherwise I bet my sweet ass EA lawyers would go after them right off the bat.
 
Flipper the Priest said:
At it again with the shūto collection. Can't keep track of what I've ordered. I never understood the appeal of just... collecting things before. I get it now. These will just sit on the shelf as I already have the ISOs, their titles glowing from the unit in a language I can't understand!
Click to expand...
There's just something so stylish, so classy & so retro about the Japanese box arts. They always look like you're getting something really premium & loved when you buy soemthing that looks the way these do. I can hear the soundtracks just from looking at them.
rojofa said:
What was it about that 2002-2006 period for sports games? Seems like there's so many absolute classics released at that time, not just football games, and there were many other decent sports games we just don't get any more.

Grand Prix 4 (2002), NHL 04 (community still updates it), Championship Manager 4, NFL 2K5/Madden 2005 (still the best franchise modes), Fight Night series was alive, MVP Baseball 2005, Tiger Woods games, Links 2003, Top Spin/Virtua Tennis both being decent, Codemasters snooker games etc... Probably missed out loads of stuff.

Seems like these days sports games can be absolute dross and sell solely on being the only option on the market and people will buy the games every time just because they are a fan of that sport.
Click to expand...
I think it's to do with not only the culture of game development of the time having more to do with faithfully respecting the subject matter more but also games didn't have the pressure of replicating ultra realism. There was a good blend of great visuals, convincing animations but also intuitive accessible controls with tight responsivness.
 
@MafiaMurderBag: Amen. And to those who feel like they don't have any football game to play because they don't like the modern ones, or those who just don't understand why we play the games we play, I'd just show them your video. Or @Meazza84's wonderful compilation. Or @Flipper the Priest's or @Saint Angelo's Master League adventures. Or the adventures people post here - shout out to Shales on twitter as a shining example of the retro-PES fever spreading elsewhere too! How can one see and read about the wonderful history of the PES series and not want to jump in on the action himself? Even more so when he can be a part of a community of great people who are friendly, warm, ever-helpful, and even productive: but instead of producing meaningless discussions that lead nowhere they create amazing content for games that were either almost completely forgotten or whose full potential was unknown to the vast majority of people, who are still stuck on that ridiculous carousel of exclusively playing just the most modern of games - until a newer one comes out! rinse and repeat -, oblivious to the phenomenal (and huge) catalog of games (and mods) they could be enjoying, whilst exploring the history of this art.

You are right, this was indeed a brutal year, but I am on the other hand grateful for providing me with a gamechanger of a mindset...change. Ever since I personally dove into this retro adventure, with retro-PES as captain, I understood it as mere quality entertainment - again, for me personally, as even a perfect substitute for modern football gaming. This year brought me a new perspective, an idea I fell in love with: the idea that these games are not just entertainment (though they play wonderfully, as ever) nor mere "nostalgia bombs" (though they work quite well on this regard too): whether one likes gaming or not, and regardless of one's feelings towards it, it is undeniable that gaming is the Art of our generation. Therefore, as an Art, it is also our Culture and History. When I had that epiphany, I asked myself: what will I do with this information: ignore it? Or fight to preserve an history that the vast majority of people seem hellbent on wanting to forget; a culture that shaped the lives of millions of people around the world, an art that showcased human brilliance at its best, breaking boundaries deemed impossible to overcome, producing virtual masterpieces in the process...? I might not have been born in time to witness the glory of the Roman Empire, the breathtaking Renaissance, or the first man on the moon, but I'm lucky to have witnessed the evolution of the art of gaming from a rudimentary pastime to the galaxy it is nowadays: and this story is worth telling - probably, when all is set and done, it will be one of the most incredible and inspiring stories in the history of mankind.

More than having loads of fun, which clearly we're having, this is ultimately what we are producing here in our little but lovable Corner: the preservation of the memory of a series that elevated the art of gaming to impossible heights, making history as a cultural phenomenon, hoping that our message reaches not just our contemporaries but those in the future, so that they all know that we were lucky to have experienced these games' greatness. Here's to another retro year!
 
Apologize for the double post, but I wanted to dedicate this one to my PES5-fueled Parma ML. Halfway through the second season on the D1 Superleague, we are currently, shockingly, leading the table with one more point than Real Madrid; plus we have won our WEFA group (and what a group it was, comprised of Milan, Juventus and Isar) and are still on the D1 Cup. Pazzini is having a wonderful season, almost topping the goal scorer list, whilst newcomer Figo is one of the players with the most assists - though he is physically wrecked (can't play more than about 60 minutes in each game and has spent at least one third of his stay here injured...).
Clearly our summer transfer market operations paid off, for now we are a much more competitive side. Gattuso devours the midfield completely with his unmatched energy; I adapted Bresciano to the CMF position and he formed a wonderful duo with the Italian, leaving the left side to N'Zogbia. At the back, Chinese leftback Soi Nan continues to improve like a maniac, clinching the role on his debut campaign.

Yet once the winter transfer market came, I knew I needed to fix a situation that I was previously unable to deal with: acquiring a CMF to replace Hokkabaike, who we had sold to Sevilla - I had bet all my chips on Maniche but he wouldn't accept. With loads of PES Points in the bank, this time I am able to spend a pornographic amount to convince the Portuguese to join us and, lo and behold, I can now field a duo comprised of Gattuso and Maniche - my PS2 will overheat with all that energy.
Another issue I hadn't fixed before was rightback Camara's situation, a promising young RB who Coco relegated to the bench. It made no sense to have such a player as a benchwarmer so I tried to sell/trade him but couldn't; now, I was somehow able to (brace yourself @Madmac79) get an offer for him, as Man Red acquires him - even if for a miserable sum. My work was done, we had all the pieces we needed to deal with the rest of the season. Or at least I thought.

I decide to "test the market" by letting a few players I wouldn't mind losing available, including starters Lupatelli our GK and Heitinga. I get offers for both and I ultimately decide to sell them: Merseyside Blue gets the Italian keeper and Ajax offers leftback Maxwell for Heitinga. Considering Barbosa is certainly going to be twice the keeper Lupatelli ever was, and Heitinga, despite his impressive stats, wasn't really that great on the pitch, I let them go. I also get an offer for Dessena and he's off.

Still having plenty of PES Points to spend, I grab Mascherano, hoping that despite him being a DMF he might form a solid duo with Bonera at the back. Molina the reserve keeper is traded to Porto for the mighty Jorge Costa, one of my favourite players of all time, and one of the most impressive players in this game regarding exclusively his mental attributes. He'll do for a reserve centreback. Piccolo and Coda are traded to Juve for Paro and Chimenti, N'Zogbia for Lorne, and Cesnauskis goes to Milan for De La Red - him and Savi could make a fantastic duo of promising midfielders whose careers were tragic...
Finally, though Barbosa is doing really well, I wanted another keeper to replace Lupatelli but was a bit short on PES Pts now. I tried Israeli keeper Aouate (90 Defense now, what a monster) but he wouldn't sign, so I settled for a cheaper, less impressive option: Moreira, a Portuguese keeper who was supposedly the next big thing in the early-00s - considered a kind of Portuguese Casillas - but peaked very early. After many moves, our roster is set: these are the players who might conquer the whole world with Parma's glorious shirt:

GK: Barbosa, Moreira (Lisbonera), Chimenti (Juventus);
CB: Bonera, Joy Raisun, Mascherano (Somewhere FC), Jorge Costa (Porto)
RB: Coco, Diana, Paro (Juventus)
LB: Soi Nan, Maxwell (Ajax)
CMF: Gattuso, Maniche (Somewhere FC), De La Red (Milan), Savi
SMF: Figo, Bogodani, Hadimon, Bresciano, Rebecchi, Lorne (Bruxelles?)
CF: Riordan, Pazzini, C. Lucarelli, Sorrentino
Jack of all trades: Gambino
 
The complexity and "realism" probably is a factor - getting an AI to effectively move and pass in 360 degress, using thousands of animations with different ball positions etc and play an effective/challenging overall game compared to the simpler mechanics of PS1/PS2 era.

However even in games where the gameplay is pretty much the same in terms of controls, the AI and often many other features were still far superior, including even the feeling of the physics. GP4 is pretty much the PES5/WE9LE as far as offline F1 games go. The AI is far more complex/realistic than modern games in how the CPU drivers will change their lines to defend their position or attempt an overtake etc, a way more detailed weather system (rain in some parts of the circuit but not others) etc...

We make excuses for these newer games like "maybe they can do this when they use a new engine" when damn near 20 year old games used to do the same things better. Or executed better even if it was achieved with less complexity... If you give a proper artist an old broken pencil, they'll still produce a better picture than a chef with all of the art supplies in the world. Modern games don't seem to be made to be games first and foremost, they are more like a collection of detailed 3D assets and visual effects with a bit of serviceable gameplay code tacked on as an afterthought so you can sell it as a game.

I feel old moaning about this kind of stuff but I'm just so bored of the vast majority of the latest sports games.
 
Honestly I don't feel like chasing realism has much to do with the current state of footies. What firstly drawn me to older Konami titles was that, compared with all the other ones around, with their limited means they chased indeed realism, at least in the sense of reproducing the feeling of a goal or a field situation. There was a criteria, a general logic that tied it all and made it comparable with the real thing. Not in any hyper accurate way or anything (that wouldn't have been possible anyway at the times), but you could point out this or that play you made on your Psx/Ps2 and compare it with a real one you saw last sunday on a real match in a lot of elements. Who hasn't done it at least a couple of times?

To me the elephant in the room with modern stuff comes more from the necessity of giving people games with fast reward to spend moneys on.. the realistic aspect is just in the animations, in the player models, and the cosmetic things (in Fifa not even much of that, lol).. while the heart is mostly dull, repetitive and to me it represents football as a whole way worse than older titles. Yeah I get it, modern physics, fox engine, older titles bad and outdated and so on and so forth, but when I see Rivaldo's classy bursts by CPU in Pes 3 I feel like football is better represented than any supposedly calculated real time animation you can give me today. I'm conscious I'm in the minority.. it's fine, I don't even care much to debate it anymore.

Past days I was watching an italian guy play MyC, just cause he's fun when he rages. And it's always the same goals, the same exploits, the same way of play with one twos and what not. What's realistic about that? The idea of reproducing true football moments is long gone at this point.

Give me a real simulation, or at least one that is a better compromise between immediacy and well done fundamentals and I'm probably set for life lol.

In the meantime I'll keep playing great classics anyway, as I feel it's probably the most near thing I'll get to the above :D .
 
Yo @miguelfcp this team is outrageous! Absolute revolution so many people bought and sold.

I do remember de la Red and it is, indeed, tragic, for once it seemed a Real Madrid's youngster would go places but nope!

What was the price for Maniche's head - would Chinese government allow that information to be revealed? My record was 47 500 for Ronaldinho. Sometimes you just gotta make it rain.

Looks like a very well balanced team at this point, nothing else left but to win that trophies!


rojofa said:
We make excuses for these newer games like "maybe they can do this when they use a new engine" when damn near 20 year old games used to do the same things better. Or executed better even if it was achieved with less complexity... If you give a proper artist an old broken pencil, they'll still produce a better picture than a chef with all of the art supplies in the world. Modern games don't seem to be made to be games first and foremost, they are more like a collection of detailed 3D assets and visual effects with a bit of serviceable gameplay code tacked on as an afterthought so you can sell it as a game.
Click to expand...

And I see those people everyday. Hop onto reddit fam (r/wepes) and see for yourself. There is this massive group in PES community which forces themselves to play modern titles, absolutely hates them, rages online and then goes back to play games they hate.

It's almost as if we couldn't just spend our free time having fun idk 🐑

I don't think it's a coincidence that football games are where they are. Best case scenario, license fees got so high there's simply no budget left to make actual game, but I don't believe it could be that bad. But hey, there's entire catalogue of godlike football video games (NOT simulators) so why bother? No more excuses. Sorry but goddamn if I'm playing 20 years old PS1 (play station one, mid 90s console) game and things like audio (chants, commentary) are better than soon-to-be PS5 games, what excuses can there be really??

Shit's ridiculous!!

Go forth and spread the gud word. People simply don't realize video games can be fun. The more we can bring to the promised kingdom - reddit, twitter, evo-web even just look at the shambles of a thread 2021 is - the better.

Crazy we have to remind people in 2020 (21 tmrw) that hey, you can have fun too! No need to torture yourself bro.

Madmac79 said:
. There was a criteria, a general logic that tied it all and made it comparable with the real thing. Not in any hyper accurate way or anything (that wouldn't have been possible anyway at the times), but you could point out this or that play you made on your Psx/Ps2 and compare it with a real one you saw last sunday on a real match in a lot of elements.
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And that's the subtle difference people don't get imho. Arcade doesn't mean real - just means it's simplified, but can still be similar to the real thing. Simulation is a big, bad word, with a very heavy meaning and massive responsibility - it has to be real and it has to deliver.

It hasn't since 2014 at least though!!

Limited gameplay isn't bad. Eight directions, two or three feints, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Less is more, if it's balanced right. And that sometimes gives that illusion of simulation.

I feel like that's, partially, what dragged PES down. Also that trash mentality (been there, done that) of FIFA = arcade, PES = simulation, therefore PES better because for grown-ups and FIFA for babbies. That was when FIFA started picking up the pace and got over PES. This sort of trash talk made PES fans feel better I'm afraid, hell I did the same. A very dangerous way of thinking 🐑

Madmac79 said:
In the meantime I'll keep playing great classics anyway, as I feel it's probably the most near thing I'll get to the above :D .
Click to expand...

Not that we have any better, but! All the modding advances will only make the classics better. Like that ML salary editing thing that was found out recently. Or all the ball physics stuff. Super hi-res graphics, stats converters, etc. etc.

We are golden 🐑 I just worry about peoples forcing themselves to play games they hate, while they could have fun instead!!
 
miguelfcp said:
Apologize for the double post, but I wanted to dedicate this one to my PES5-fueled Parma ML. Halfway through the second season on the D1 Superleague, we are currently, shockingly, leading the table with one more point than Real Madrid; plus we have won our WEFA group (and what a group it was, comprised of Milan, Juventus and Isar) and are still on the D1 Cup. Pazzini is having a wonderful season, almost topping the goal scorer list, whilst newcomer Figo is one of the players with the most assists - though he is physically wrecked (can't play more than about 60 minutes in each game and has spent at least one third of his stay here injured...).
Clearly our summer transfer market operations paid off, for now we are a much more competitive side. Gattuso devours the midfield completely with his unmatched energy; I adapted Bresciano to the CMF position and he formed a wonderful duo with the Italian, leaving the left side to N'Zogbia. At the back, Chinese leftback Soi Nan continues to improve like a maniac, clinching the role on his debut campaign.

Yet once the winter transfer market came, I knew I needed to fix a situation that I was previously unable to deal with: acquiring a CMF to replace Hokkabaike, who we had sold to Sevilla - I had bet all my chips on Maniche but he wouldn't accept. With loads of PES Points in the bank, this time I am able to spend a pornographic amount to convince the Portuguese to join us and, lo and behold, I can now field a duo comprised of Gattuso and Maniche - my PS2 will overheat with all that energy.
Another issue I hadn't fixed before was rightback Camara's situation, a promising young RB who Coco relegated to the bench. It made no sense to have such a player as a benchwarmer so I tried to sell/trade him but couldn't; now, I was somehow able to (brace yourself @Madmac79) get an offer for him, as Man Red acquires him - even if for a miserable sum. My work was done, we had all the pieces we needed to deal with the rest of the season. Or at least I thought.

I decide to "test the market" by letting a few players I wouldn't mind losing available, including starters Lupatelli our GK and Heitinga. I get offers for both and I ultimately decide to sell them: Merseyside Blue gets the Italian keeper and Ajax offers leftback Maxwell for Heitinga. Considering Barbosa is certainly going to be twice the keeper Lupatelli ever was, and Heitinga, despite his impressive stats, wasn't really that great on the pitch, I let them go. I also get an offer for Dessena and he's off.

Still having plenty of PES Points to spend, I grab Mascherano, hoping that despite him being a DMF he might form a solid duo with Bonera at the back. Molina the reserve keeper is traded to Porto for the mighty Jorge Costa, one of my favourite players of all time, and one of the most impressive players in this game regarding exclusively his mental attributes. He'll do for a reserve centreback. Piccolo and Coda are traded to Juve for Paro and Chimenti, N'Zogbia for Lorne, and Cesnauskis goes to Milan for De La Red - him and Savi could make a fantastic duo of promising midfielders whose careers were tragic...
Finally, though Barbosa is doing really well, I wanted another keeper to replace Lupatelli but was a bit short on PES Pts now. I tried Israeli keeper Aouate (90 Defense now, what a monster) but he wouldn't sign, so I settled for a cheaper, less impressive option: Moreira, a Portuguese keeper who was supposedly the next big thing in the early-00s - considered a kind of Portuguese Casillas - but peaked very early. After many moves, our roster is set: these are the players who might conquer the whole world with Parma's glorious shirt:

GK: Barbosa, Moreira (Lisbonera), Chimenti (Juventus);
CB: Bonera, Joy Raisun, Mascherano (Somewhere FC), Jorge Costa (Porto)
RB: Coco, Diana, Paro (Juventus)
LB: Soi Nan, Maxwell (Ajax)
CMF: Gattuso, Maniche (Somewhere FC), De La Red (Milan), Savi
SMF: Figo, Bogodani, Hadimon, Bresciano, Rebecchi, Lorne (Bruxelles?)
CF: Riordan, Pazzini, C. Lucarelli, Sorrentino
Jack of all trades: Gambino
Click to expand...

Mig, your ML is starting to resemble some glitch in the Matrix to me :D .. absolutely crazy. I'm sure I've even picked Parma in the past yet nothing of the kind ever happened :D .

Great roster, anyway. Midfield in particular is rock solid!

With your Figo's play description you make me want to start another old guys challenge, but this time on Pes 5, even more. It has been in my head for some time now, maybe that could be one of this new years resolutions for me :D .
 
Saint Angelo said:
Limited gameplay isn't bad. Eight directions, two or three feints, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Less is more, if it's balanced right. And that sometimes gives that illusion of simulation.

I feel like that's, partially, what dragged PES down. Also that trash mentality (been there, done that) of FIFA = arcade, PES = simulation, therefore PES better because for grown-ups and FIFA for babbies. That was when FIFA started picking up the pace and got over PES. This sort of trash talk made PES fans feel better I'm afraid, hell I did the same. A very dangerous way of thinking 🐑
Click to expand...

I absolutey agree on ALL the line! Complexity on itself does nothing to me. That's not where depth comes from in my opinion, in a football game but also in any other genre.

Saint Angelo said:
Not that we have any better, but! All the modding advances will only make the classics better. Like that ML salary editing thing that was found out recently. Or all the ball physics stuff. Super hi-res graphics, stats converters, etc. etc.

We are golden 🐑 I just worry about peoples forcing themselves to play games they hate, while they could have fun instead!!
Click to expand...

Yeah I used to be one of those lol. Now it's so silly to think about the incredible mole of truly wonderful chapters I just played "for the season" and set aside the second the new one came out (no matter how much I preferred the previous) because that's what the market says and where the general crowd tends to go.

I feel so lucky we have this small but solid community, I don't think I would have enjoyed all those small boxes of virtual/ football history like they deserve.

In a sense, Retro-Pes (and Fifa) is my new chapter :D
 
I think the main thing with the older games is they managed to capture the enjoyment of football.

Let's be honest for a moment. This game we all love, when watching it, is for large parts boring. I was roughly working it out the other day and I must have been to over 800 games in person and I know I've come away from more matches thinking, well, that was shit, than wow, what a game that was. But it's those what a game moments that make it all worthwhile. Those times you walk out of the stadium and think that's why I go to football. And this is what that era of PES in particular captured so well. It had all the key parts, lots of variation, goal fests, tight games, late goals, endless moments of drama, comedy own goals, reckless tackles, moments of pure brilliance and that was before you threw in the ML stories that would unfold.

I liken it to the season we had Prosinecki, we were mostly pretty crap, finished 17th but he was such a joy to watch in action that I didn't care, I'd have paid to watch him play on a Sunday morning in the park. Those moments of pure joy he gave and that I'll never forget is what those PES of the time managed to give in their own way.

I'm sure the new games have their great moments but they seemed to have lost the soul of what PES was.
 
@Saint Angelo: Initially I just wanted to get Maniche, but transfer windows are like a virtual Christmas to me, I just can't help it. Plus, player individuality in PES5 is so fantastic that it is so much fun controlling new players, as each really feels completely different from one another.
I don't know for sure but I believe I got Maniche for about 8000 to 9000 PES (certainly no more than 10000). I do remember his salary, and again I overpaid him with a nice 800-something PES Point deal. He was also one of my favourite players in real life so I was ready to move mountains to grab him. I still have Deco on my shortlist as his contract with Barça is running out (might be able to grab him as a free agent!) so one of these days I might be able to reproduce a substantial part of that legendary Mourinho's Porto CL winning team of 2004, now that we have Jorge Costa too.

@Madmac79: :DD I don't know if this helped, but I put different players on the transfer list on each different "week" of the transfer period, perhaps the "novelty factor" attracts the CPU. So far the AI has been behaving quite cleverly too. Ajax for example is growing at the expense of my gullibility: first they got my Schweinsteiger for Heitinga, then they got Heitinga back for Maxwell: now they have two phenomenal wonderkids on their team, plus the likes of Babel...

Go for it! Despite its issues, PES5 is the perfect game for such a challenge. This old version of Figo is lovable: you can't use the R1 with the guy, so he plays as if he were sitting on a chair all the time, but his touch is unbelievable. Days ago he even assisted a goal with his ass: he dove for a header, but the ball was intercepted, touched his bottom and assisted Gattuso for a tap-in. I checked after the match and the game recognized it as an assist! Legendary skills.
 
mattmid said:
I think the main thing with the older games is they managed to capture the enjoyment of football.

Let's be honest for a moment. This game we all love, when watching it, is for large parts boring. I was roughly working it out the other day and I must have been to over 800 games in person and I know I've come away from more matches thinking, well, that was shit, than wow, what a game that was. But it's those what a game moments that make it all worthwhile. Those times you walk out of the stadium and think that's why I go to football. And this is what that era of PES in particular captured so well. It had all the key parts, lots of variation, goal fests, tight games, late goals, endless moments of drama, comedy own goals, reckless tackles, moments of pure brilliance and that was before you threw in the ML stories that would unfold.

I liken it to the season we had Prosinecki, we were mostly pretty crap, finished 17th but he was such a joy to watch in action that I didn't care, I'd have paid to watch him play on a Sunday morning in the park. Those moments of pure joy he gave and that I'll never forget is what those PES of the time managed to give in their own way.

I'm sure the new games have their great moments but they seemed to have lost the soul of what PES was.
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Agree with almost every word. Since PES2013 I haven't felt that kind of feeling, at least in the PES saga. In FIFA I felt it until FIFA18, since then the magic was kinda lost (in my opinion). But playing PES6, PES2013, FIFA15/16/17/18, those are the games that I've felt more inside of the pitch than any other versions of both sagas.
 
miguelfcp said:
@MafiaMurderBag:it is undeniable that gaming is the Art of our generation. Therefore, as an Art, it is also our Culture and History. When I had that epiphany, I asked myself: what will I do with this information: ignore it? Or fight to preserve an history that the vast majority of people seem hellbent on wanting to forget; a culture that shaped the lives of millions of people around the world, an art that showcased human brilliance at its best, breaking boundaries deemed impossible to overcome, producing virtual masterpieces in the process...?
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Wonderfully put. We are living through a gaming revolution, In 30 years gaming and mobile phone technology are 2 of the fastest man made evolutions and we're not stopping any time soon.

What I love about gaming is that even though it can seem as though mainstream games can hit a plateau and publishers play it safe and release copies of the status quo to appease the lowest common denominator, there are still developers who want to take risks and innovate and offer a totally unique experience, Which propels the innovation forward. Which is why I often prefer to play indie games on my modern consoles instead of the usual AAA open world bloat.

There's a great YouTuber called Futurasounds who uploads these wonderful analytical videos on games, their philosophy's and psychology... And he made a really interesting comparison like yours however, It was likening the medium of gaming to rock and roll music.

That throughout the 20th century, Rock music evolved and innovated through various genres and interpretations, As soon as a convention would get old, A new sound would emerge and would become the sound of a generation until that would run it's course and something new would take over until here we are, At a point where just about everything has been done, Every idea has been recycled ad nauseum and rock music is no longer the pop culture genre of choice.

With gaming, We're sort of in the middle of that rock and roll evolution, It's a commercialised glam rock period if you will where the music takes a back seat to the image and marketing, We're seeing more and more unfinished mainstream games than ever that still have the cheek to ask you to spend more money on their fashion. Like a merch stand at a concert yet it's in game.

But there are still those small underground acts who still care about that raw art and want to innovate, And those are our indie games. The ones who grew up with what we consider retro and source it as inspiration for their current work. Remembering what was great about gaming in the first place - Fun, Productivity and skill. Magical sights and sounds and not this photo realistic representation of reality to the point where every game looks the same.

Anyway, I'm digressing a little. But yes we're living through a really exciting, Almost post-modern period of art in gaming if developers start taking risks but the industry is cut-throat and driven by profits first and foremost and art will always take a backseat to the cookie cutter.
 
ryudek said:
Agree with almost every word. Since PES2013 I haven't felt that kind of feeling, at least in the PES saga. In FIFA I felt it until FIFA18, since then the magic was kinda lost (in my opinion). But playing PES6, PES2013, FIFA15/16/17/18, those are the games that I've felt more inside the pitch than any other versions of both sagas.
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Sorry for the double post too hahahah, forgot to add something:

I also have the most fun playing football videogames when I'm in a difficult position: fighting relegation, not depending on myself to qualify on a group, etc. It's a different type of emotion, and I feel it's more 'intense'. Being relegated could be devastating for a football club, so there's always more at stake. And those games I mentioned really make those moments feel more intense.
 
rojofa said:
Grand Prix 4 (2002), NHL 04 (community still updates it), Championship Manager 4, NFL 2K5/Madden 2005 (still the best franchise modes), Fight Night series was alive, MVP Baseball 2005, Tiger Woods games, Links 2003, Top Spin/Virtua Tennis both being decent, Codemasters snooker games etc... Probably missed out loads of stuff.
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Loved the Geoff Crummond(? think that was his name) Microprose Grand Prix games. High Heat Baseball was another great one of that time too. I played that endlessly at the time.


miguelfcp said:
@Madmac79: :DD I don't know if this helped, but I put different players on the transfer list on each different "week" of the transfer period, perhaps the "novelty factor" attracts the CPU. So far the AI has been behaving quite cleverly too. Ajax for example is growing at the expense of my gullibility: first they got my Schweinsteiger for Heitinga, then they got Heitinga back for Maxwell: now they have two phenomenal wonderkids on their team, plus the likes of Babel...
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Kind of a Black Friday sale for the AI? :DD


ryudek said:
I also have the most fun playing football videogames when I'm in a difficult position: fighting relegation, not depending on myself to qualify on a group, etc. It's a different type of emotion, and I feel it's more 'intense'. Being relegated could be devastating for a football club, so there's always more at stake. And those games I mentioned really make those moments feel more intense.
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I totally agree with this. I actually enjoy losing to the AI, not continually of course but in the manner you're describing. Having to battle to win, fighting for every ball. Nothing worse for me that if it's too easy to just keep having win after win. The ML I posted up on here a year or two back was just like that, It took me 7 seasons to get the defaults promoted and was just endless fun and a real sense of achievement when it happened.
 
Madmac79 said:
eah I used to be one of those lol. Now it's so silly to think about the incredible mole of truly wonderful chapters I just played "for the season" and set aside the second the new one came out (no matter how much I preferred the previous) because that's what the market says and where the general crowd tends to go.

I feel so lucky we have this small but solid community, I don't think I would have enjoyed all those small boxes of virtual/ football history like they deserve.
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Tell me about it! Literally bought PS4 Pro for PES 2020 release because of the demo hype. Ended up being the same game it was in 2015.

Exchanged after a month for Switch and Let's go Eevee and it's much better football game...somehow.

As per the community it's quite insane. Any PES place you go to is doom and gloom and hitler. Then you click here and it's like 🐑 just having fun would you believe that?

But hey, modern titles have the proymer legue licensed so what do I know.

miguelfcp said:
so one of these days I might be able to reproduce a substantial part of that legendary Mourinho's Porto CL winning team of 2004, now that we have Jorge Costa too.
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This is actually such a good idea, imagine if you were to face Monaco in CL Final as well.

Mourino 2: Parmese Boogaloo is on!!

MafiaMurderBag said:
Anyway, I'm digressing a little. But yes we're living through a really exciting, Almost post-modern period of art in gaming if developers start taking risks but the industry is cut-throat and driven by profits first and foremost and art will always take a backseat to the cookie cutter.
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If only someone took the risk with full 3D PS2-style football game with no licenses. Huge risk, coz how do i play soccer without monchester unoited??? but also, it could be a decent football game for once!

There's tons of crazy games and studios out there indeed, if only one tried their hand at football game...

I would buy it 🐑

ryudek said:
I also have the most fun playing football videogames when I'm in a difficult position: fighting relegation, not depending on myself to qualify on a group, etc. It's a different type of emotion, and I feel it's more 'intense'. Being relegated could be devastating for a football club, so there's always more at stake. And those games I mentioned really make those moments feel more intense.
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Especially since these moments are not being manufactured by the game under the hood, behind the pitch. I had my share of ML league titles on Superstar and yet it rarely ever felt as a success, knowing I either got handicapped or helped out by the mysterious powers.

I remember PES 2015 and Go Ahead Eagles (weakest Dutch team in the game) ML, won the title first try in ML (Superstar) but it was so much pain. Season two I suppose the powers that be wanted to make things a bit equal, I will never forget CL seminfinal against Man United and Fellaini's volley from like 45 meters, literally off my goal kick. 5-6 super shocker semi final, emotions galore and yet I just felt hollow. Hooray, you played out your scenario game now die.

Couple weeks later started PES 6 Firebird ML with Deportivo. Barely got promoted season 1, barely got 6th place and eurocups spot in the last game. Now that was a cause for a celebration, even though it was just 6th place in the league.

And old PES had that. We might not notice sometimes, especially after grinding PS2 titles for 15 goddamn years, but it is fair from start to end and whatever happens, happens for real. No magical interference. Even without all those bells and whistles, press conferences, e-mail inbox, b-movie cutscenes, awards, etc. it still feels 1000 times more realistic than the modern ML which actively attempts to be realistic.

Man this stuff is a joke 🐑 who cares? let's just enjoy good games - let others suffer if they want to

happy new year!! time to open drinks - post quality might deteriorate rapidly from this point onwards.


enjoy yourself 🐑
 
mattmid said:
Loved the Geoff Crummond(? think that was his name) Microprose Grand Prix games. High Heat Baseball was another great one of that time too. I played that endlessly at the time.
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Yeah that's the guy, I was watching some gameplay of GP4 and was very impressed with how it looked and the quality of the AI. I wasn't really into F1 at the time so didn't play it myself, but it seems to be held in very high regard with a cult following on other forums/communities pretty similar to people like us appreciating retro PES.

Found this interview with Geoff Crammond from 2014 - quite interesting how the man behind such a classic and well regarded game answers the questions about the AI, other modern simulators etc, mirrors a lot of what we've been saying here about football games really;
http://virtualr.net/upload/jim-c-geoff-crammond-interview.pdf

Especially when asked about the excellent AI in GP4;

image.png
 
I want to start a ML with the original season in PES6, with the original ML players (Minanda, Castolo, etc), but having mods such as some nice stadiums or faces, what patch would you guys recommend? To be honest I'm clueless, the furthest I've gotten is using Sany installers for the World Cup/Euro patches and moving the zoom setting :LMAO:
Would love to hear your recommendations!

EDIT: To be honest any season under 2009 is good for me, just the sense of something older but not that old
 
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