The Retro-PES Corner

[miguelfcp]

@mattmid: Amador really made the FM-PES conversion shine, really. With no comparisons to real-life players to be made, it works as a stat generator that provides diversity and realism when it comes to generating those different levels of football as you put it.
Now when it comes to reproducing real-life players, I find it's better to understand what each PES stat does exactly and then try to use that knowledge to create a decent statsheet. I read a while ago on PSD that they reduced drastically Sergio Ramos' defense attribute because of the player's recklessness when it comes to his defensive positioning, often committing rookie mistakes on that regard. I think they dropped it to a good 70-something. However, what they overlooked was the fact that - as the PES5 AKA Retro-PES Bible explains - "Defense" on PES is not just positioning but how quickly a player is able to get back on his feet after he commits to a sliding tackle; and in my opinion Sergio Ramos is probably among the best of the world on that particular ability. On FM he'll probably be a high Marking and "interception" kind of guy, but with less Concentration or Composure I believe. Reproducing this on PES should be tricky: don't underrate his defense, maybe rate his Response on really high 90s but also don't reduce Mentality to mimic his lack of concentration/composure because Sergio, to me, would be a really high Mentality player with his warrior spirit. Pre-PES6 still had an unhidden "consistency" stat, so probably it'd be the stat that allowed to reproduce this particular element of his style of play.

Just like the "1-touch pass" is actually "first-time-shot"...attributes in retro-PES are written in Konamispeak so us mere mortals are left a bit puzzled about how to actually translate it into real-life-speak. FM - translate to PES - translate to Reality is the way to go? You don't do this, but the patches I've used that utilize FM stats go about that translation "blindly", converting from FM to PES and boom, that's it. It's a far more complicated matter to convert it - and you should know it as you've developed your own method to overcome this.

Here we are speaking of in-depth matters when PES19 doesn't even have mental stats!

 

[miguelfcp]

Plus: here's the "Defense" attribute as explained in the Bible:

The higher this stat, the better and faster a player is at performing challenges and sliding tackles. Where the latter is concerned, it also has an influence on how quickly a player can get back on his feet.

So not a word about defense as "positioning", and the description makes me believe a guy like Sergio Ramos would be high-90s on this stat.

 

[mattmid]

@miguelfcp Yes that's exactly it. With that pes5 manual and the in game editor description of each stat that's what I've used to base the stats on.

DEF in the in game editor has the lucidly clear ( ) Konami description of "Higher value favours defensive positions" Nothing like a clear, concise description there then! It's almost like the original guy to come up with the stats left and they are all guessing at what each one does

I have found (by putting an entire team at 99) that it really improves a player in defence (and attack for ATT) they become more competent at what they do. I kind of envisage it as an additional stat of their over all competence at defending ( or attacking). For example a good top level defender might have 88 for defence where as say a third tier good defender (for the level) might be say 70 but it could be that in certain areas he is better than the top level defender - perhaps he's a better passer for example, but his 'over all' defending (for want of a better word) will be less effective.

One thing I have picked up on from that manual that you can see clearly in Amador is where seabass mentioned about animation (Cycles? I think). A player better at something has less animation cycles and you can clearly see that with the low free kick skills of our Amador players, you can notice they appear to run up to the ball slowly to take the free kick. That has to be the extra animation they are doing which must be how Konami 'slow' players down with things like reaction etc.

 

[Red_Star_Belgrade]

Fuck PSD. Hey let's give Ronaldo 70 for dribble speed, a fucking 70.....

 

[miguelfcp]

@mattmid: Yes, it surely has to mean that a high-Defense stat player must have great defensive positioning/awareness as well, and the PES5 guide's description of it goes to show that the stat is far from one-dimensional. Just like the "Swerve" stat is not just the obvious amount of curl that a player can apply to the ball, but also how much "dip" the ball has - particularly when trying to make the ball fly over the wall when attempting a freekick. On both cases, the stat has a fundamental, more obvious meaning, while at the same time it has deeper effects on the gameplay that one would not get by reading its often oversimplistic descriptions ingame - and, at times, just plain wrong like the 1-touch-pass star.

I hadn't noticed that on Amador, that's quite interesting. I remember reading about animation cycles apropos of the "agility" stat. Another thing that could easily fly under the radar: agility is not just how fast a player can control his body, high agility attribute means faster animation cycles too.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Plus: here's the "Defense" attribute as explained in the Bible:

So not a word about defense as "positioning", and the description makes me believe a guy like Sergio Ramos would be high-90s on this stat.

It is far more subtle and deep than we could imagine in early PES games. Defending for example is determined by several stats: balance, defense, positioning, aggression, technique. All of these numbers interact with each other to make a top defender.

I would always sign a player with stats consistently in the mid-70s range all the way down the page than some player with a scattering of a few amazing orange and yellow numbers.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@mattmid: Yes, it surely has to mean that a high-Defense stat player must have great defensive positioning/awareness as well, and the PES5 guide's description of it goes to show that the stat is far from one-dimensional. Just like the "Swerve" stat is not just the obvious amount of curl that a player can apply to the ball, but also how much "dip" the ball has - particularly when trying to make the ball fly over the wall when attempting a freekick. On both cases, the stat has a fundamental, more obvious meaning, while at the same time it has deeper effects on the gameplay that one would not get by reading its often oversimplistic descriptions ingame - and, at times, just plain wrong like the 1-touch-pass star.

I hadn't noticed that on Amador, that's quite interesting. I remember reading about animation cycles apropos of the "agility" stat. Another thing that could easily fly under the radar: agility is not just how fast a player can control his body, high agility attribute means faster animation cycles too.

That PES 5 guide is amazing, 240 pages of detailed explanations of everything.

 

[miguelfcp]

@WhoAteMeDinner: I remember you saying a while ago that you liked to control a "Vornander" type of defender, big bulky but slow, because his lack of agility/speed + good defense attribute was a positive combination for us controlling the player, it'd facilitate a more direct and resolute defensive approach on our behalf. That has to do with the animation cycles me and Matt were speaking of, less cycles for Vornander means every step he takes without the ball is much more important than a fast guy like Ivan Córdoba for example, with which you can easily spawn the R1 button and commit every kind of defensive mistake with him, he'll still be able to get back on track with the play with its excellent speed.

 

[geeeeee]

Yes, your own team. Konami removed that from PES 6 on for whatever reason...

Off-Topic : Have to say FIFA 19 looks promising, i saw you started to play it, how is it stats-wise ?

You can set strategy counter attack and pressure but not ABC levels.

Yep sorry well off topic : damn you caught me playing fifa The stats work well in fifa 19 but i’m still struggling to really enjoy it if i’m honests. That’s the problem with all the different slider settings i feel that it’s a never ending tweak here and there.

Don’t worry though i am still editing PES2008 just doing a little less a day. I am looking forward to AMADOR full release so i can start a ML on that.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@WhoAteMeDinner: I remember you saying a while ago that you liked to control a "Vornander" type of defender, big bulky but slow, because his lack of agility/speed + good defense attribute was a positive combination for us controlling the player, it'd facilitate a more direct and resolute defensive approach on our behalf. That has to do with the animation cycles me and Matt were speaking of, less cycles for Vornander means every step he takes without the ball is much more important than a fast guy like Ivan Córdoba for example, with which you can easily spawn the R1 button and commit every kind of defensive mistake with him, he'll still be able to get back on track with the play with its excellent speed.

@miguelfcp , Exactly cheesehead, exactly. I did not know anything about the animation cycle speed thing you and @mattmid have detailed very well. But it makes total gaming sense, if you think of special moves in beat 'em up games back in the day, then having a players' special skills slowed down in animation to show their exceptional football abilities.

On Vornander, he ambles towards COM forwards that are twice as fast as him and just steals the ball with such ease and grace, it really displays the value of having a team of varied talents.

 

[mattmid]

That PES 5 guide is amazing, 240 pages of detailed explanations of everything.

Yes it's really great. Imagine if Konami had thought of putting this info in the manual? No, that wouldn't be Konami then would it. Let's just put some vague stuff in the menu on what things mean

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

You can set strategy counter attack and pressure but not ABC levels.

Yep sorry well off topic : damn you caught me playing fifa The stats work well in fifa 19 but i’m still struggling to really enjoy it if i’m honests. That’s the problem with all the different slider settings i feel that it’s a never ending tweak here and there.

Don’t worry though i am still editing PES2008 just doing a little less a day. I am looking forward to AMADOR full release so i can start a ML on that.

@geeeeee , The other game is the seed of satan.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Yes it's really great. Imagine if Konami had thought of putting this info in the manual? No, that wouldn't be Konami then would it. Let's just put some vague stuff in the menu on what things mean

@mattmid , and what is even more hilarious than the limited in-game description is the tiny booklet of a manual they used to supply in hardcopy with Playstation 2 games.

 

[slamsoze]

@mattmid: Yes, it surely has to mean that a high-Defense stat player must have great defensive positioning/awareness as well, and the PES5 guide's description of it goes to show that the stat is far from one-dimensional. Just like the "Swerve" stat is not just the obvious amount of curl that a player can apply to the ball, but also how much "dip" the ball has - particularly when trying to make the ball fly over the wall when attempting a freekick. On both cases, the stat has a fundamental, more obvious meaning, while at the same time it has deeper effects on the gameplay that one would not get by reading its often oversimplistic descriptions ingame - and, at times, just plain wrong like the 1-touch-pass star.

I hadn't noticed that on Amador, that's quite interesting. I remember reading about animation cycles apropos of the "agility" stat. Another thing that could easily fly under the radar: agility is not just how fast a player can control his body, high agility attribute means faster animation cycles too.

One-dimensional. That's how all stats work in modern days. I remember an OF tried in the last year i played intensively PES6 where all defenders and GKs had globally +5 agility/defense/response(one of the most important stats imho gameplay wise). They were really working contextually* back then.

*By the way i have noticed the latter years, since PES started its decline that the word CONTEXTUAL has become a really hot trend being used in the most cases to describe the modern gameplay while in reality it sound more like an excuse for everything. examples:
1)-userA: Stats don't matter at all everybody runs and catches-up the same way/time
-userB: Stop moaning, speed is contextual!


2)-userC: Foxengine (game engine at general) dictates so much of the gameplay overriding stats resulting a RightFotoed player with 60 shot accuracy scoring an out of balance first-time, mid-air knucle shot with his Left Foot.
-userD: Stop moaning, shooting is contextual!


3)-userE: CPU-AI goalkeepers with OPR 60 are chesty-unbeatable, everyone is making saves like Peter Schmeichel, it is unrealistic
-userF: It is not unrealistic,it is contextual!

 

[reinelt97]

Quick question for those retro-PESing on PS2...

I have PES looking okay on a HDTV but is it worth up/down-grading to an old CRT TV?

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Quick question for those retro-PESing on PS2...

I have PES looking okay on a HDTV but is it worth up/down-grading to an old CRT TV?

I would, anything pre HD console looks better nativley on CRT. the only way older 3D games look better in HD is if you're playing them on PC or via an emulator and you can manually override and upscale the internal resolution.

I play a lot of old games on PC, mostly old PS1 games that i missed out on back in the day and even on PC, i use curved CRT filters to give it a cosy old school feel but also so it looks the way it was intended.

 

[fmicablues7]

Interesting discussion here, guys.

I understand the reasoning behind using the FM stats in your case, @mattmid. In the end, like i said earlier, there isn't a "best" way, it's about preference . I mostly use PSD stats and watch how the players act in-game and adjust if necessary. I have trouble emulating some players though, like Messi. In PS2 game engine, he would probably need a 150 Attack rating at least, because he's nowhere as dangerous as he is in reality in regard to his attacking intelligence with 99, in every PS2 PES i tried.

Sometimes, PES players should have "weird stats" in regard to FM IMO, because of the way the game works. Sergio Ramos is a great example. I was a in favour of a low defense for him. In my PES3 game, it emulates him so well, such a great defender because of his strength, stamina, passes, technique, header and speed combined. But someone very impetuous and making mistakes, notably positioning-wise. I'm not sure about PES5, but in PES3 defence rating do not influence the speed of getting back on feet after a tackle. I should test more to confirm, but i think agility, response and especially the sliding tackle star affect that.
I would also take with a pinch of salt the explanations in the PES guides (and Konami's ones obviously), because it is clear to me that defence stat has a major impact on positioning, i tested it a lot on PES5 and 6, and i guess it is the same for the others PES. I would rather refer to these definitions, which were clearly tested over the years https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38461

In Sergio's case, i think PSD didn't fear to "drop the hammer" like you said you do, @miguelfcp. The same can be said about Ronaldo and his 70 dribbling speed. We should take in account that dribble speed is a percentage of the speed itself, so it will still be not that low for a guy like Cristiano, which has still a great top speed.

Opta stats and percentage, i'm not sure to be honest. Stats usually don't show the whole picture and shouldn't be taken as a sole reference IMO. I'm also not sure, if the full scale of stats has an effect in PES for some stats.

 

[slamsoze]

Interesting discussion here, guys.

I understand the reasoning behind using the FM stats in your case, @mattmid. In the end, like i said earlier, there isn't a "best" way, it's about preference . I mostly use PSD stats and watch how the players act in-game and adjust if necessary. I have trouble emulating some players though, like Messi. In PS2 game engine, he would probably need a 150 Attack rating at least, because he's nowhere as dangerous as he is in reality in regard to his attacking intelligence with 99, in every PS2 PES i tried.

Sometimes, PES players should have "weird stats" in regard to FM IMO, because of the way the game works. Sergio Ramos is a great example. I was a in favour of a low defense for him. In my PES3 game, it emulates him so well, such a great defender because of his strength, stamina, passes, technique, header and speed combined. But someone very impetuous and making mistakes, notably positioning-wise. I'm not sure about PES5, but in PES3 defence rating do not influence the speed of getting back on feet after a tackle. I should test more to confirm, but i think agility, response and especially the sliding tackle star affect that.
I would also take with a pinch of salt the explanations in the PES guides (and Konami's ones obviously), because it is clear to me that defence stat has a major impact on positioning, i tested it a lot on PES5 and 6, and i guess it is the same for the others PES. I would rather refer to these definitions, which were clearly tested over the years https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38461

In Sergio's case, i think PSD didn't fear to "drop the hammer" like you said you do, @miguelfcp. The same can be said about Ronaldo and his 70 dribbling speed. We should take in account that dribble speed is a percentage of the speed itself, so it will still be not that low for a guy like Cristiano, which has still a great top speed.

Opta stats and percentage, i'm not sure to be honest. Stats usually don't show the whole picture and shouldn't be taken as a sole reference IMO. I'm also not sure, if the full scale of stats has an effect in PES for some stats.

My only objection about KONAMI guides in game is that they are hiding too much stuff as it is kind of secret.In handheld manuals there was always more info that’s why I was always big fan of booklets and used to study them for hours when I was buying PES dvdroms back then.For example it took them 8 years,from pes5 to pes2013 to explain us how R2 is functioning in helping you make a more fluid ball. Control when you receive a pass.
Furthermore stats like AGILITY,Mentality,Aggression work more as a game slider than a plain stat.Thats why in my opinion,the reason these stats are not affected in ML by players development/decline and cannot be trained but remain the whole players carrier the same.At least Konami should include them in a separate stats page.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Interesting discussion here, guys.

I understand the reasoning behind using the FM stats in your case, @mattmid. In the end, like i said earlier, there isn't a "best" way, it's about preference . I mostly use PSD stats and watch how the players act in-game and adjust if necessary. I have trouble emulating some players though, like Messi. In PS2 game engine, he would probably need a 150 Attack rating at least, because he's nowhere as dangerous as he is in reality in regard to his attacking intelligence with 99, in every PS2 PES i tried.

Sometimes, PES players should have "weird stats" in regard to FM IMO, because of the way the game works. Sergio Ramos is a great example. I was a in favour of a low defense for him. In my PES3 game, it emulates him so well, such a great defender because of his strength, stamina, passes, technique, header and speed combined. But someone very impetuous and making mistakes, notably positioning-wise. I'm not sure about PES5, but in PES3 defence rating do not influence the speed of getting back on feet after a tackle. I should test more to confirm, but i think agility, response and especially the sliding tackle star affect that.
I would also take with a pinch of salt the explanations in the PES guides (and Konami's ones obviously), because it is clear to me that defence stat has a major impact on positioning, i tested it a lot on PES5 and 6, and i guess it is the same for the others PES. I would rather refer to these definitions, which were clearly tested over the years https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38461

In Sergio's case, i think PSD didn't fear to "drop the hammer" like you said you do, @miguelfcp. The same can be said about Ronaldo and his 70 dribbling speed. We should take in account that dribble speed is a percentage of the speed itself, so it will still be not that low for a guy like Cristiano, which has still a great top speed.

Opta stats and percentage, i'm not sure to be honest. Stats usually don't show the whole picture and shouldn't be taken as a sole reference IMO. I'm also not sure, if the full scale of stats has an effect in PES for some stats.

Yep, @fmicablues7 , response is a key factor for reacting and recovering. I think there is also a response special ability star in PES 3 too, which makes a player react to loose balls bobbling in the box like a ninja.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@miguelfcp , Rough old week for the Portuguese Overseas Global Elite. CR7 is in for a right old American legal sh_t storm this evening and Jose (aka Juan Mata's stalker) has totally lost his marbles.

Are you in the gym working on your eight pack or sending your CV to Manchester ?

 

[mattmid]

@WhoAteMeDinner Man Utd should maybe have a look at Accrington's manager. Anyone who can win League 2 on a 17k week budget for the entire squad and then lose just 1 of their first 11 matches in League one is some manager in my eyes. But no, it's the same old group of manager's who get recycled from job to job in the top League. Paul Cook's another example, does any manager have a better 5 year record than him? Lge 2 Champions, Lge 1 play offs, Lge 2 play offs, Lge 2 Champions, Lge 1 Champions. No, what a Premier team will do is give the likes of Pardew another go.

I'd love to see some of these big name manager's go and take over the like's of Accrington. Here's your budget, these are your players, any really good one's will get snapped up by a bigger team, now get on with it and manage.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@WhoAteMeDinner Man Utd should maybe have a look at Accrington's manager. Anyone who can win League 2 on a 17k week budget for the entire squad and then lose just 1 of their first 11 matches in League one is some manager in my eyes. But no, it's the same old group of manager's who get recycled from job to job in the top League. Paul Cook's another example, does any manager have a better 5 year record than him? Lge 2 Champions, Lge 1 play offs, Lge 2 play offs, Lge 2 Champions, Lge 1 Champions. No, what a Premier team will do is give the likes of Pardew another go.

I'd love to see some of these big name manager's go and take over the like's of Accrington. Here's your budget, these are your players, any really good one's will get snapped up by a bigger team, now get on with it and manage.

@mattmid , yep, totally agree, must admit you know far more about League 1 and League 2 than I do at the moment. (as mentioned before, EFL disappeared from Irish television while on Channel 5). And I am only catching up again now.
What strikes me about the three EFL tiers is just how much more competitive they are compared to the Russian / Chinese / Arab money laundering scam disguised as the Premier League. (When I underline something it is not a compliment btw).

League 1 is full of former Premier League outfits now in harder times like Portsmouth, Sunderland and Charlton Athletic. As you say, given how the massive Premier League corporations regularly trawl the lower leagues for dozens of young players they seem just to buy in order to warehouse them and prevent their rivals perhaps signing a future top player. Then how can EFL managers have any squad stability or develop talent fully ? Poor old Steve Bruce got the flick from Villa and they sold half the team from under him.

Premier League is a flippin' global wealth management scheme, not a sports league, just ask Man Utd fans (if you speak Chinese that is).

 

[mattmid]

@mattmid
Premier League is a flippin' global wealth management scheme, not a sports league, just ask Man Utd fans (if you speak Chinese that is).

Do they speak Chinese in Guildford then?

I know about League 1 and 2 because my team's spent the last few years in them and but for a late rally, would have dropped out of Lge 2 four seasons ago. You mentioned them (Portsmouth). And boy are we the poster boys for bad foreign ownership. Most of my time supporting them has been in the Championship (Div 2 as was) and lower leagues bar our 7 season flirt with the Premier and the appalling mismanagement that came with that. We had a Russian whose father was an alleged arms smuggler, convicted and then overturned and changed to tax evasion, along with various Arab owners who may or may not have actually existed. Of course all were passed by the FA fit and proper person test. Quite what it takes to fail that I have no idea. At one stage our season tickets sales for the following season were being used as collateral for loans.

I have to admit there were some great moments, an FA Cup win, something I never thought I'd get to see and a Europa League night at home to AC Milan who had Kaka, Ronaldinho, Inzaghi, Seedorf and so on in their team. I had to pinch myself to believe I was there watching that. A night where we led 2-0 at one stage and ended up with a 2-2 draw. The ironic part of that night was at 2-0 up I turned to my mate and said Is this the high point? It turned out yes it was, from there it went into a nosedive. Those two occasions were one's I could only have dreamt of witnessing my team take part in. Other memorable moments were home wins against the likes of Man Utd and Liverpool. However, by about the third or fourth season the novelty had worn off and your aspirations for the season ahead are not to get relegated - hardly the stuff of dreams is it? One of the best parts of pre season is that feeling that maybe this could be the year you get promoted or win the league, well there's no chance of that in the Premier any more so for most clubs it's just to avoid relegation.

Ironically we are now under foreign ownership again (an American) however this time it is someone who is not going to throw money at it and wants slow and steady growth and to date has done exactly what he preached. He was also shocked at the manager turnover and didn't understand it. We'll see how that one pans out when we have a bad time and the twitter brigade get out in force

Now my mate and I have conversations such as if we get back into the Championship do we really want to get back in the Premier? Not particularly, but how can you start a new season NOT wanting your team to win the league? Hopefully by then, should it happen, the big boys will bugger off and form a European super league and there'll be a top domestic league that you can actually have a chance of winning.

Spoiler: You couldn't make it up

from wikipedia, a nice summing up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_F.C.#2010–2017:_Decline_and_relegation_to_League_Two

 

[miguelfcp]

@WhoAteMeDinner: At least my beloved Porto won their Champions League match, not all is lost! Also Nuno Espírito Santo is doing great on the Premier League, it's good to see him and his glorious beard shining for Wolverhampton.
United knows where to find me. First thing I'd do when I got to the training ground would be to pack Smalling, Bailly and Lindelof's bags and tell them to follow Zamenhof to a retreat in Tibet, and come back only when they've mastered the dark arts of defending with the help of Ra's Al Ghul. That defense is so bad right now, it'll surely not even come close to save Gotham.

@slamsoze: That reminds me of the Team Spirit thingy in modern PES. In retro-PES, a team with high levels of cohesion and mental stability - a great real-life example would be Simeone's Atletico at its peak - would be measured by the players that were part of it, even if of course the tactics and strategy made an impact, as it does in reality. Besides having players with good overall statsheets, they'd have guys like Godín, Juanfran, Tiago, Gabi, Koke and Diego Costa who should have very high Teamwork and/or Mentality stats. Same with Guardiola's Barça, having a midfield with three of the players with higher Teamwork stats + passing/technique in the world helps to create superb team chemistry.
Nowadays, instead of having Mentality or Teamwork stats for each player, you get a "Team Spirit" overall rating and that's it. Current-day FC Porto would be an example of a team with high Team Spirit, but in reality they pull that off because of high Teamwork and/or Mentality players like Casillas, Maxi Pereira, Herrera, Marega...however, they fit Brahimi there, who has horrible Mentality-Teamwork combination. On retro-PES you can capture these kinds of nuances because there are mental stats for each player. On modern-PES, borrowing the word you used, player individuality is sacrificed for "context". So you can better reproduce Brahimi's tendency to often play "hero-ball" - one man vs. an entire defense as he often does in real-life - on retro-PES. And your team will have lots of chemistry depending on the players you pick, not because you summoned a deity or something and he upgraded your Team Spirit rating...

@fmicablues7: Sometimes they do "drop the hammer" and Sergio Ramos is a great example of it - though they've abandonded the idea of giving him 70-something defense, upgrading it +80 -, but more often than not they're not as cynical as I am when evaluating a player. It's fine, like I said it's more a matter of each person's particular vision. I've yet to understand how my vision works on PES3, will have to test it furtherly. What I do know is that the game seems to be a great "playground" to test stats, as it's so obvious that it has a visible impact on the gameplay.

 

[rockstrongo]

Yeah I've started my Hoarder's career lads.
A small step for man,and a giant leap for mankind!

 

[mattmid]

@miguelfcp Why stop there, send Jones with them That defence has been awful for years, De Gea has been player of the year for about 4 of the last 5 seasons I believe. No wonder, he must win them more points than any other player. It says an awful lot that a 'top' team have had the keeper being player of the year so often. There was a game last season away to Arsenal when I think was it 14 saves he made(?) it was the record anyway and at least half of them were one's where you thought it has to be a goal here. They won the game 3-1, if I recall correctly, and could have easily lost it 10-3 with no exaggeration.

 

[papinho81]

Also I remember reading - I think in the PES5 guide - that there's a lot more difference between a "dark red stat" (95+) and another dark red stat than a 81 vs 88, for example...don't know if this nuance had already been introduced back in PES3.

This non linear curve for player stat was new to pes5 and I don't know if it has been implemented in pes6. In pes5 the players stat to "real value" relationship is linear until 94, then exponential from 95 upward.

 

[mattmid]

This non linear curve for player stat was new to pes5 and I don't know if it has been implemented in pes6. In pes5 the players stat to "real value" relationship is linear until 94, then exponential from 95 upward.

This is Konami at it's best isn't it? We have no idea if they carried on with that or not! Have to assume they did but in all honesty who knows for sure.

There was another thing that I just recently thought about that I'd never considered before. If you consider a player's stats, let's say for argument's sake that it's agreed upon that Messi's dribbling accuracy is to be set at 95. Now, the thing here that I hadn't considered before is that if that is where we all considered his dribbling stat to be then shouldn't that be considered his stat 'at the top of his game'? The thing is, if he has a red arrow that dribbling accuracy total is increased by 9% so he just suddenly got better than his best. Surely, in this example, we should be setting it so that with a red arrow of form his 9% increase puts him at what we consider his best form, a 95. So his actual dribbling accuracy stat in this case should be 87/88. Then when he's at the top of the game he 'realises' his best form and plays at 95. Thoughts?

 

[papinho81]

Messi dribbling stat at its best is 104. At least.

 

[miguelfcp]

@mattmid: Even forgot about Jones, that's how important I think he is for the team!
That's an interesting thought. It's why every statmaker always says he has to watch many many matches of a certain player before he's able to come up with a decent statsheet representation of him. I use this formula to represent a player as he usually plays; then, let the arrows do their thing and define a player's "off days" and "god-like days", so to speak. If you put Messi with 87/88 dribbling acc., he'll drop down to a mediocre value if he's on a down arrow, which will be unrealistic because even on his off days, he's still superb on that regard. If you assign 95, he'll be a God on up arrows which will give him 99 dribbling acc., and I'd say that's much more accurate for a legend like Messi; and while on a down arrow he'll still be a pretty good dribbler.

Here I go again speaking of Porto players but Brahimi is a classic example of one of the hardest players to create a statsheet for, using this formula. On a good day his dribbling/agility is so effective he can't be stopped, but the next game he won't be able to dribble past his defender, not even once. Same with his speed, shooting acc., passing, technique, these items vary a lot on his game. But after sampling hundreds of matches in which he played, I can come up with a somewhat realistic representation of his "usual self", which in turn will give accurate down/up arrow "contextual statsheets" according to his form on PES. And his usual self is at least an "orange" dribble acc. stat (+90), for example.