The Retro-PES Corner

Interesting stuff about stats... Personally, i don't like psd stats, players are so overrated, especially body balance. At the beginning PSD was like "all konami stats are bullshit so we are here to create realisitc stats for you" but in reality, their stats from that period can be described as " just random numbers". Then they realize that because konami actually invented this bloody pes game, maybe they know something about stats, and psd moved to a "konami is good, but nevertheless we are better of course" so now they have "new standard" thing, which is - make konamish stats but more extremely, EXTREME KONAMI.
 
@miguelfcp That's one of the main reason's I don't like the form arrows - or at least don't like the % increase it gives, it's too much in my opinion (and decrease) I think the diagonal arrow values would have been enough. You're right in that taking that off his dribbling on a down arrow is wrong, which is why I don't like the arrows. He doesn't suddenly lose his ability to dribble. He might have an off day because the defending is better, or he's closed down quicker, less space etc, he didn't suddenly lose 9% of his dribbling ability on the day.

If anything form should probably be linked to mentality as it's usually down to confidence or lack thereof. Take Salah for example, sky high confidence, he didn't think about any chance, just took it. Now he's questioning himself and over thinking things because he's lost confidence.

Also, some things shouldn't be affected. Jumping for instance is ridiculous that it gets affected by form arrows. Suddenly I can jump 12% better because I'm in form.


Also after what we saw with that 123 on that amador youth file I think the internal rating goes over 99 with the form bump.
 
@miguelfcp We discused during summer how the old teamwork was a bless and a miracle for a video game with that technology.Basically it was a “context “ of 110 strings (11players*10teamwork strings) and all these combined with strategy maybe and affinity+teamwork stat of each player individually.
The current TeamSpirit concept as good it is as a concept the more bad it is in execution.There is no logic for a 2018/2029 game to be so one dimensional where for example to your beloved Porto FC: If you have RB Joao Pedro,RWF Brahimi and CF Marega with 90 TeamSpirit,they cooperate well but if you make a sub to your RB and TS falls extremely,lets assume below 70 ,which cannot happen in game but let’s say it for the experiment, it doesn’t not only affect the teamwork between the RB and RWF-CF but it also affects the teamwork of the pair CF-RWF which is pretty stupid cause they are still the same players Marega-Brahimi.Also it is stupid and limited cause it makes them running slower or having worse positioning,or making worse passes.As in older games and reality it should only affect covering, group transitions and vision- prediction of teamate’s A precise movement/action by teammate B.
 
Drumroll please....

And the winner is....

Bet you didn't expect that, but life is easy when you have Liverani on your side.

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@mattmid: 100% agreed, to me it's an interesting attempt at creating a form system but it's too exaggerated. Fortunately, depending on the retro-PES game you're playing, these effects can be somewhat toned down: for example on PES08 PS2 I rarely ever got any of the two down arrows (mainly got them when a player got too fatigued) so, assuming it'd be the same for CPU teams, 99% of the time there was only 3 levels of form for the players in each match.
Could that be true, regarding the 123 stat? Never thought of that, always assumed even a 99 stat player would just keep his 99 rating even on a top form arrow.

@slamsoze: Exactly, it's a much more evolved approach to recreate team chemistry because it considers the players as individuals to fit a strategy/tactic and how they relate to each other, rather than the Team Spirit thing that I won't ever understand. To me it's yet another oversimplification that takes away the depth that the game could have. Instead of carefully looking at every single player's Mentality and Teamwork, you just look at a number that means nothing - besides the fact that your team could or could not be possessed by a benevolent or evil spirit - and there you go. Reminds me of the dreaded player Overall rating...
 
Just catching up with the posts on here. It’s interesting to hear the observations regarding Form arrows.

Can i throw a spanner in the works?

What about the Consistency value? In 2008 you can only see it in the Pes Editor not in the game itself. I normally put the most consistent players at 8 (obviously). Not sure what affect it has on players. Might search the web later.

I suppose Messi with 8 Consistency would be more likely to perform to his best for example hitting the target more but then what about Shot Accuracy. Mmm...
 
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"Consistency defines the number of mistakes a player makes in a match. Basically, if you kick the ball, the player has 5 consistency you have about 50% chance of successfully utilising SA SP ST to there full potential, the game instantly factors how effective your attempt was. Furthermore, it influences the form a player has; meaning the higher the Consistency, the bigger the probability to have an above-average arrow. " This is the definition from PSD forum. In PES3, consistency had another name "Play stability" and it works the same as the description above.

To sum up, Condition is related to physical condition and Consistency is related to "mental" condition.

Edit : I think since PES 2011 or 2010, can't remember, they removed consistency altogether even in the external editor, so the condition stat (which was renamed "form" i think) take maybe care of the two aspects.
 
fmicablues7 said:
"Consistency defines the number of mistakes a player makes in a match. Basically, if you kick the ball, the player has 5 consistency you have about 50% chance of successfully utilising SA SP ST to there full potential, the game instantly factors how effective your attempt was. Furthermore, it influences the form a player has; meaning the higher the Consistency, the bigger the probability to have an above-average arrow. " This is the definition from PSD forum. In PES3, consistency had another name "Play stability" and it works the same as the description above.

To sum up, Condition is related to physical condition and Consistency is related to "mental" condition.

Edit : I think since PES 2011 or 2010, can't remember, they removed consistency altogether even in the external editor, so the condition stat (which was renamed "form" i think) take maybe care of the two aspects.
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Basically, @fmicablues7 , @mattmid and @miguelfcp , to pull together all your discussion and very detailed descriptions of consistency, mentality, defence and dribble stats. All of these stats had great meaning and interplay with each other and the special ability stars in games up to PES 6 and maybe one or two editions beyond that, including the LE editions I have never played.

But the relationship and impact of all of these stats upon each other and on the actual gameplay of players on the pitch is zilch from PES 2009 onwards. All the players play, dribble and pass the exact same way.

They could get rid of all the stats as far as I can see. :SHAKE::SHAKE::SHAKE:
 
miguelfcp said:
@mattmid: Even forgot about Jones, that's how important I think he is for the team! :DD
That's an interesting thought. It's why every statmaker always says he has to watch many many matches of a certain player before he's able to come up with a decent statsheet representation of him. I use this formula to represent a player as he usually plays; then, let the arrows do their thing and define a player's "off days" and "god-like days", so to speak. If you put Messi with 87/88 dribbling acc., he'll drop down to a mediocre value if he's on a down arrow, which will be unrealistic because even on his off days, he's still superb on that regard. If you assign 95, he'll be a God on up arrows which will give him 99 dribbling acc., and I'd say that's much more accurate for a legend like Messi; and while on a down arrow he'll still be a pretty good dribbler.

Here I go again speaking of Porto players :D but Brahimi is a classic example of one of the hardest players to create a statsheet for, using this formula. On a good day his dribbling/agility is so effective he can't be stopped, but the next game he won't be able to dribble past his defender, not even once. Same with his speed, shooting acc., passing, technique, these items vary a lot on his game. But after sampling hundreds of matches in which he played, I can come up with a somewhat realistic representation of his "usual self", which in turn will give accurate down/up arrow "contextual statsheets" according to his form on PES. And his usual self is at least an "orange" dribble acc. stat (+90), for example.
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All this talk of red stats above 95 make me think of Robbie Baggio, Pavel Nedved and Alvaro Recoba in the golden age of PES, running around the pitch like football gods, the ball stuck to their feet like it was made of toffee.

Who is this Messi fella ? :CONFUSE::CONFUSE::CONFUSE:
 
miguelfcp said:
@WhoAteMeDinner: :LOL: At least my beloved Porto won their Champions League match, not all is lost! Also Nuno Espírito Santo is doing great on the Premier League, it's good to see him and his glorious beard shining for Wolverhampton.
United knows where to find me. First thing I'd do when I got to the training ground would be to pack Smalling, Bailly and Lindelof's bags and tell them to follow Zamenhof to a retreat in Tibet, and come back only when they've mastered the dark arts of defending with the help of Ra's Al Ghul. That defense is so bad right now, it'll surely not even come close to save Gotham.

@slamsoze: That reminds me of the Team Spirit thingy in modern PES. In retro-PES, a team with high levels of cohesion and mental stability - a great real-life example would be Simeone's Atletico at its peak - would be measured by the players that were part of it, even if of course the tactics and strategy made an impact, as it does in reality. Besides having players with good overall statsheets, they'd have guys like Godín, Juanfran, Tiago, Gabi, Koke and Diego Costa who should have very high Teamwork and/or Mentality stats. Same with Guardiola's Barça, having a midfield with three of the players with higher Teamwork stats + passing/technique in the world helps to create superb team chemistry.
Nowadays, instead of having Mentality or Teamwork stats for each player, you get a "Team Spirit" overall rating and that's it. Current-day FC Porto would be an example of a team with high Team Spirit, but in reality they pull that off because of high Teamwork and/or Mentality players like Casillas, Maxi Pereira, Herrera, Marega...however, they fit Brahimi there, who has horrible Mentality-Teamwork combination. On retro-PES you can capture these kinds of nuances because there are mental stats for each player. On modern-PES, borrowing the word you used, player individuality is sacrificed for "context". So you can better reproduce Brahimi's tendency to often play "hero-ball" - one man vs. an entire defense as he often does in real-life - on retro-PES. And your team will have lots of chemistry depending on the players you pick, not because you summoned a deity or something and he upgraded your Team Spirit rating...

@fmicablues7: Sometimes they do "drop the hammer" and Sergio Ramos is a great example of it - though they've abandonded the idea of giving him 70-something defense, upgrading it +80 -, but more often than not they're not as cynical as I am when evaluating a player. It's fine, like I said it's more a matter of each person's particular vision. I've yet to understand how my vision works on PES3, will have to test it furtherly. What I do know is that the game seems to be a great "playground" to test stats, as it's so obvious that it has a visible impact on the gameplay.
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@miguelfcp , there is nothing "playground" about PES 3, mig dude, unless playgrounds in Portugal are full of hard men with baseball bats.

BTW, CR7 is not in Portugal team......:(:(:(
 
@mattmid , Portsmouth have been through alot in recent years, plenty of shady owners and off the pitch drama, but things are going well now, top of League 1 after eleven games and I hear even better times are ahead. New owners about to buy the club, who have already passed the FA / Premier fit-and-proper-person-test:

:THINK::THINK::THINK:

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mattmid said:
@WhoAteMeDinner :LOL: Take it back about 7 years and it wouldn't be that unlikely! Renamed Novichok Utd in a nod to Konami's made up names :)
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@mattmid , in a sense, that would not be a bad thing as it would allow you and your fellow Pompey mates to form a breakaway real football club called AFC Portsmouth which would then get promoted to a division above Novichok Utd.

:PRAY::PRAY::PRAY:
 
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@WhoAteMeDinner Which must have been a fantastic moment for the AFC Wimbledon fans, particularly to see MK go down in the same season. :) When they met, Wimbledon wouldn't give any seats to the MK board, they had to go in the stand with the away fans and they wouldn't put the word Dons next to MK on the programme either. A moment of victory for football.
 
@WhoAteMeDinner: Who are those two guys in the pics you posted, are they our beloved Russian Bots who're always lurking around in our thread?
:DD Portugal is considered one of the safest countries in the world so there's little chance for that to happen! I meant playground as a treat for a stat-junkie like myself, who likes to mess around with player stats and try out new things on that regard. I've used PES PSP for that up until recently - not only the gameplay is great but playing on a handheld console comes in very...handy:BY:...for editing stats. However I'm finding PES3 an even better platform for that, as stats seem to have even a more direct influence.

@fmicablues7: Interesting...so a guy like Brahimi could have high condition, as he's able to play consecutive matches without needing to rest (and season after season he's always one of the players with more minutes played), but low consistency. Either that, or low condition+low consistency to make it even more obvious how irregular his performance is...?
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
@mattmid , Portsmouth have been through alot in recent years, plenty of shady owners and off the pitch drama, but things are going well now, top of League 1 after eleven games and I hear even better times are ahead. New owners about to buy the club, who have already passed the FA / Premier fit-and-proper-person-test:

:THINK::THINK::THINK:

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I lost respect for Pompey when they sold out their supporters trust ownership to Eisner (Disney)
A proper Mickey Mouse club.
Lovely old ground though
 
@rockstrongo Unfortunately it wasn't financially viable to continue as it was, the stadium was in need of millions of pounds of investment just to keep it open, the capacity had dropped by 2-3k already because of health and safety not allowing parts of it to be used (years of neglect by the mega rich owners) and there was no way to do it under fan ownership that had no way of raising that sort of money. We won Lge 2 under fan ownership with crowds of 18k and still didn't make a profit. There was no big benefactor amongst the fans to take it on, just five main guys with a bit of money who put a bit in here and there to keep things afloat after the initial 2m raised by the fans.

I don't think anyone especially wanted to sell but it was the only viable way forward and as it happens we have got extremely lucky because he isn't a shit owner. He put his offer on the table and even said I'm not going to be throwing money at it chasing a premier league dream, if that's what you want I'm not your man. He wants to build up the academy and look to grow from there - we currently have 5 ex academy players in our first team squad, another two got from non-league teams and an Irish boy that we got from Derry and @WhoAteMeDinner no doubt is aware of called Ronan Curtis who's going to go on to big things I think. He said I'm going to run it properly and look to make gradual progress and to be fair he's been true to his word so far. The one thing he's brought from his time as Disney chief exec is the 'family' ethos, he respects the history of the club (Americans love history), all staff were kept on and are still there now. There's three fans on one of the boards that ensure all decisions relating to the football side of the club are heard and approved. I think we were all sceptical but seriously he's about as good an owner as you could ever wish for. He's already put millions into getting the stadium fixed and capacity is up by 1500 or so already. So, no, we are not a mickey mouse club.
 
mattmid said:
@rockstrongo Unfortunately it wasn't financially viable to continue as it was, the stadium was in need of millions of pounds of investment just to keep it open, the capacity had dropped by 2-3k already because of health and safety not allowing parts of it to be used (years of neglect by the mega rich owners) and there was no way to do it under fan ownership that had no way of raising that sort of money. We won Lge 2 under fan ownership with crowds of 18k and still didn't make a profit. There was no big benefactor amongst the fans to take it on, just five main guys with a bit of money who put a bit in here and there to keep things afloat after the initial 2m raised by the fans.

I don't think anyone especially wanted to sell but it was the only viable way forward and as it happens we have got extremely lucky because he isn't a shit owner. He put his offer on the table and even said I'm not going to be throwing money at it chasing a premier league dream, if that's what you want I'm not your man. He wants to build up the academy and look to grow from there - we currently have 5 ex academy players in our first team squad, another two got from non-league teams and an Irish boy that we got from Derry and @WhoAteMeDinner no doubt is aware of called Ronan Curtis who's going to go on to big things I think. He said I'm going to run it properly and look to make gradual progress and to be fair he's been true to his word so far. The one thing he's brought from his time as Disney chief exec is the 'family' ethos, he respects the history of the club (Americans love history), all staff were kept on and are still there now. There's three fans on one of the boards that ensure all decisions relating to the football side of the club are heard and approved. I think we were all sceptical but seriously he's about as good an owner as you could ever wish for. He's already put millions into getting the stadium fixed and capacity is up by 1500 or so already. So, no, we are not a mickey mouse club.
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I get it mate the Mickey mouse reference was a Disney pun.
Don't know why British clubs can't operate under fan influence successfully,and I hope for your sake ownership doesn't get you back to previous horrors.
Wimbledon' is still under fan ownership right?
I think the FA has been to lazy with approving ownerships in the football league/PL seen a few horrible ones buying clubs

Always had a soft spot for Pompey though,great ground,and we had a Swedish striker there in the early 2000s (or late90)
Best of luck with Pompey mate
 
@rockstrongo Thanks. Yeah we have had that pun :D I agree in an ideal world it fan ownership would be great. I'm not sure why it doesn't work here. Finances for one I guess as all the inflated Premier wages filter down - apparently the Championship clubs are about a billion pounds in debt between them. I read that the average Championship wage bill is about 20m a year, to put that in context ours last season was 3.5m which was supposed to be about average for League 1. Football here is going to go bang eventually, it's just no sustainable to keep putting all the income straight out into the players pockets.

I think Wimbledon still are yes, I think they've also got approval to move back to Wimbledon and build a new stadium. They've been playing in a 4k capacity one (Kingstonian I believe) since returning to the league so that'll be great.

The FA are a complete joke with their fit and proper person test. Anything this side of genocide is ok I think.


Hmm, just thinking who that could be? We had Matthias Svensson at that time, really liked him but I'm pretty sure he came from Elfsborg. Maybe he started at Hammarby(?) or was it someone else?
 
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miguelfcp said:
@WhoAteMeDinner: Who are those two guys in the pics you posted, are they our beloved Russian Bots who're always lurking around in our thread?
:DD Portugal is considered one of the safest countries in the world so there's little chance for that to happen! I meant playground as a treat for a stat-junkie like myself, who likes to mess around with player stats and try out new things on that regard. I've used PES PSP for that up until recently - not only the gameplay is great but playing on a handheld console comes in very...handy:BY:...for editing stats. However I'm finding PES3 an even better platform for that, as stats seem to have even a more direct influence.

@fmicablues7: Interesting...so a guy like Brahimi could have high condition, as he's able to play consecutive matches without needing to rest (and season after season he's always one of the players with more minutes played), but low consistency. Either that, or low condition+low consistency to make it even more obvious how irregular his performance is...?
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I do not know Brahimi as well as you, but it sounds to me that low mentality/teamwork/consistency would do the trick. You'd better give him high condition, if he can play consecutive games without needing to rest.
 
@fmicablues7: I'll still have to test it out, all these years I've been playing around with PES games that didn't have Consistency - or even if they did, it was hidden and I never learnt how to edit a PSP OF outside the ingame editor...now I have to catch up.
 
fmicablues7 said:
Of course ! Playing casual Konami Cups for now, i'll start a master league later.
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Good to hear mate, and if you are still hammering all the COM opposition with ease, then maybe do a salary cap Master League save (as I am in PES 3), or an even tougher version is one of @miguelfcp 's absurdly tough Default Originals Challenge options.
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
Good to hear mate, and if you are still hammering all the COM opposition with ease, then maybe do a salary cap Master League save (as I am in PES 3), or an even tougher version is one of @miguelfcp 's absurdly tough Default Originals Challenge options.
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I'm kind of creating my own challenge with a special database. And I can already say it will be very hard, maybe even harder than the Default Originals Challenge. :P Basically, all teams will have classic players or important past and current players in their lineup, whatever era they come from. Therefore, we begin as the defaults in Division 2 against such teams as :

Benfica :
Oblak
David Luiz
Luisao
Maxi Pereira
Coentrao
Matic
Ramires
Di Maria
Aimar
Eusebio
Nuno Gomes

Monaco :
Barthez
Squillaci
Rafael Marquez
Thuram
Mendy
Fabinho
Petit
Giuly
Bernardo Silva
Mbappé
Prso

And these are only Division 2 teams :

In first division, there is for example Barcelona :SHOCK: :
Victor Valdes
Piqué
Puyol
Dani Alves
Van Bronckhorst
Guardiola
Xavi
Iniesta
Messi
Eto'o
Ronaldinho
 
mattmid said:
@rockstrongo Thanks. Yeah we have had that pun :D I agree in an ideal world it fan ownership would be great. I'm not sure why it doesn't work here. Finances for one I guess as all the inflated Premier wages filter down - apparently the Championship clubs are about a billion pounds in debt between them. I read that the average Championship wage bill is about 20m a year, to put that in context ours last season was 3.5m which was supposed to be about average for League 1. Football here is going to go bang eventually, it's just no sustainable to keep putting all the income straight out into the players pockets.

I think Wimbledon still are yes, I think they've also got approval to move back to Wimbledon and build a new stadium. They've been playing in a 4k capacity one (Kingstonian I believe) since returning to the league so that'll be great.

The FA are a complete joke with their fit and proper person test. Anything this side of genocide is ok I think.


Hmm, just thinking who that could be? We had Matthias Svensson at that time, really liked him but I'm pretty sure he came from Elfsborg. Maybe he started at Hammarby(?) or was it someone else?
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I was a bit vague on "us" I meant Matthias as a swede.
So that's him mate
Always had a soft spot for Pompey for a nr og reasons,underdogs in the PL, Arry as coach,Teddy Sheringham when he was getting older,lovely genuine ground.
Don't know how many times I've done both manager and player career for Pompey on fifa 16-17

Yes wages are insane in the championship,pretty much (stars aside) what you make in Serie A/Ligue 1.
Not really in proportion to quality and brand.
I agree on the bubble will be popped soon.
I hope that MK really reaches out and gives Wimbledon it's past glories back (trophy's etc) it's great news on Wimbledon getting a new home.

Theres a few stadiums I'd like to tick off in the UK and Fratton park being one, preferably Vs Your rivals in a cup tie
 
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rockstrongo said:
I was a bit vague on "us" I meant Matthias as a swede.
So that's him mate
Always had a soft spot for Pompey for a nr og reasons,underdogs in the PL, Arry as coach,Teddy Sheringham when he was getting older,lovely genuine ground.
Don't know how many times I've done both manager and player career for Pompey on fifa 16-17

Yes wages are insane in the championship,pretty much (stars aside) what you make in Serie A/Ligue 1.
Not really in proportion to quality and brand.
I agree on the bubble will be popped soon.
I hope that MK really reaches out and gives Wimbledon it's past glories back (trophy's etc) it's great news on Wimbledon getting a new home.

Theres a few stadiums I'd like to tick off in the UK and Fratton park being one, preferably Vs Your rivals in a cup tie
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@rockstrongo , nah, give me Amerigo Atllantis, Cuito Cuanavale or Estadio Gran Chaco any day over real stadiums. No roof, that is for the middles classes, no corporate boxes and no dodgy foreign owners.

How for example does someone who owns an English football club, but is refused a UK residency visa still meet the fit-and-proper-person-test by the FA and Premier League.

:R1:R1:R1
 
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