The Retro-PES Corner

Even I sinned yesterday.
FIFA 18,so technically a "retro game"
Never playing that or any other fifas in the near future,scripting insane.
World class 15 Min
Me Hull vs Bury!
See if anything sticks out on the stat screen.
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Mikhail said:
Wow...FIFA 18 is such a horrible game though, my worst FIFA in a long time.
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Using the OS sliders,but lowered sprint to 26/29 and it plays ok,but the scripting drove me nuts.
I know it's been like that forever when playing Carabao cup,always end 0-0 and pens.
But this was something else,not to mention my games on 17&16...
I prefer 18 to 15-16-17 ,those are so twitchy.
Biggest deal-breaker isn't the script though,it's that defenders magically slides two meters and gets in front of you.
 
rockstrongo said:
Even I sinned yesterday.
FIFA 18,so technically a "retro game"
Never playing that or any other fifas in the near future,scripting insane.
World class 15 Min
Me Hull vs Bury!
See if anything sticks out on the stat screen.
View attachment 7063
Click to expand...
The only blessing for me with fifas 17-18 is that as I have never played any fifa before,I can play in professional difficulty which is pretty human at the moment no obvious scripting.If I ignore the fifa physics which are weird it is a funny experience.I assume it like a mobile game for android where I just pass-pass around and in the end I say wtf,it is more like I play against myself:P
But I admit it is more user friendly for a noob like me.In pes over regular if you are a first day player you got hammered before you find how the buttons are working!!! :P
 
Been away for a while as i hadn't had much motiovation to play much Retro PES, been dipping in and out of PES 2019 but the AI offline is disapointing and while Online can be fun, it's so long winded getting the game to connect to servers and wait to be assigned an opponent that booting up and playing it can feel like a chore.

Had 20 mins spare yesterday so quickly booted up WE9LE for old times sake, played a quick friendly between Spain v Nigeria and after a few mins of playing, the grin widened on my face and the magic was back.
This game has so much character, so much excitment and unpredictabilty, every player emotes after somethign eventful happens and there's some about this game that evokes a feeling of a living and breathing football match.

Joaquin switches the play with a wonderfully weighted pass to Iniesta accross the ground and decieves the Nigerian midfielder, Raul crosses first time but it's not a laser guided cross, even Torres' youthful leap isn't enough to meet it and Raul is denied a powerful downward header at the near post on Joaquin's roll of the dice.

UeCGlSn.gif


Nigeria were pretty subdued but woke me up with this thunderbolt outta nowhere in the second half that thundered off the woodwork.

YcOC4q3.gif


Only thing better than a last gasp match winner is when it bounces off the underside of the cross bar and settles into the roof of the set and over the goaline i say.

SLkMqSS.gif
 
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slamsoze said:
The only blessing for me with fifas 17-18 is that as I have never played any fifa before,I can play in professional difficulty which is pretty human at the moment no obvious scripting.If I ignore the fifa physics which are weird it is a funny experience.I assume it like a mobile game for android where I just pass-pass around and in the end I say wtf,it is more like I play against myself:P
But I admit it is more user friendly for a noob like me.In pes over regular if you are a first day player you got hammered before you find how the buttons are working!!! :P
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Ha ha yes,FIFA is probably a bit more user friendly,you're correct there
It's a steep learning curve.
I saw a post in the Pes 12 thread were a user said "it's to hard to learn"
 
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I installed pes 2016 at my old PC with Intel 2 Duo and 2GB RAM...The game runs smooth without any lags but when i went to task manager i saw that the cpu is all the time 100%...

Is it dangerous for the PC? I dont have any stuttering or freezing or laggs when i m playing..

edit.. WE9LE is PES 5 or PES 6?
 
@MafiaMurderBag: Retro-PES is like your first love, one might f*** around but he always comes back! :PIRATE:

@Falcao_9: Neither, WE9LE is a more refined version of PES5 which is a very competent "bridge" between the gameplays of PES5 and PES6, as it can provide a more fluid gameplay like that of PES6 but still conserves the toughness and the midfield battles that are so typical of PES5. It's a must-have for any Retro-PES enthusiast.
 
Falcao_9 said:
I installed pes 2016 at my old PC with Intel 2 Duo and 2GB RAM...The game runs smooth without any lags but when i went to task manager i saw that the cpu is all the time 100%...

Is it dangerous for the PC? I dont have any stuttering or freezing or laggs when i m playing..

edit.. WE9LE is PES 5 or PES 6?
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Technically is between 5 and 6.In real life it is a kind of “expansion” of PES5,same menu same content different (improved) gameplay.As I misread your question in the beginning and I thought that you asked for a comparison I will go for my personal evaluation: pes5 for the more solid and sim approach, pes6 for the action and more arcadey direct responsiveness and we9le if you are an art/masterpiece lover. :)
 
slamsoze said:
Technically is between 5 and 6.In real life it is a kind of “expansion” of PES5,same menu same content different (improved) gameplay.As I misread your question in the beginning and I thought that you asked for a comparison I will go for my personal evaluation: pes5 for the more solid and sim approach, pes6 for the action and more arcadey direct responsiveness and we9le if you are an art/masterpiece lover. :)
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Am i right in also adding that WE9LE includes the January rosters for that year too?
 
miguelfcp said:
@MafiaMurderBag: Retro-PES is like your first love, one might f*** around but he always comes back! :PIRATE:

@Falcao_9: Neither, WE9LE is a more refined version of PES5 which is a very competent "bridge" between the gameplays of PES5 and PES6, as it can provide a more fluid gameplay like that of PES6 but still conserves the toughness and the midfield battles that are so typical of PES5. It's a must-have for any Retro-PES enthusiast.
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@miguelfcp , Indeed, those who stray from the righteous path seldom stay in the wilderness for long. @MafiaMurderBag and @fmicablues7 may be distracted by a harlot of a football game I can not even mention again for fear of catching fire by the wrath of our PES God.

Retro-PES forever.... :WORSHIP::WORSHIP::WORSHIP:
 
@miguelfcp , Mig, quick question for you related to a post you made a while back at how players in the early ISS games could never round the keeper and always had to shoot.

The poor dribble control is the reason for this and in PES 6 I am finding this too. The biggest bug is still the very loose and amateur dribble control of all players, do you find this in the PC version of PES 6 too ?

Making going around the keeper impossible.
 
@WhoAteMeDinner: I don't remember talking about that :D Anyway, I've been playing a bit of PES3 lately and can understand what you mean: dribbling with a a player who has a good/great Dribble Acc. + Agility combination has a certain "oompf" to it that I don't think any other PES game of the PS2 era is able to match - though dribbling in PES4 is so much fun, I find most players to have god-like dribble control.
However, on PES6 and PES08 PS2, whether the player is CPU or player controlled, if he has this combination of stats he'll show excellent ball control too; at least I find this type of player to be quite hard to steal the ball from him.
 
PSD stats work wonders in PES3 IMO. I always felt that PSD stats would overrate players in PES6, but in PES3 it is perfect. I found there are even more fouls and more intelligent runs, surely due to the higher teamwork and mentality standards in PSD database.
I know @miguelfcp said this on Amador's topic : "Player individuality: Other football games/patches' databases only have pro-level players, so there's absolutely no individuality at all because every player is at least above average on any given skill. On Amador, there are players with 10 dribble speed, midfielders with 40 top speed, strikers with 58 attack, and players with -60 mentality and teamwork. The best of the bunch will stand out and you'll notice it."

That is absolutely not my experience with PES 3. Ronaldo (the brazilian) is so much different than Henry and so on. Little differences like 95 and 92 in body balance are very obvious. I believe it is less the case the more you move forward in time in the series. Maybe, as the game became more "free", the stats lost also their weight. Some might argue PES 3 is too rigid, but stats worked amazingly well and produced a lot of diversity.
 
miguelfcp said:
@WhoAteMeDinner: I don't remember talking about that :D Anyway, I've been playing a bit of PES3 lately and can understand what you mean: dribbling with a a player who has a good/great Dribble Acc. + Agility combination has a certain "oompf" to it that I don't think any other PES game of the PS2 era is able to match - though dribbling in PES4 is so much fun, I find most players to have god-like dribble control.
However, on PES6 and PES08 PS2, whether the player is CPU or player controlled, if he has this combination of stats he'll show excellent ball control too; at least I find this type of player to be quite hard to steal the ball from him.
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Thanks @miguelfcp , I am still looking for a player in PES 6 that does not dribble the ball seven or eight yards in front of him when running at full pace. It makes for the most stupid looking gameplay in the PES series I believe. The keeper jogs out to the edge of the box as soon as a quick forward breaks through on goal and just scoops the ball up with ease.

Every single player I have played against does this, none of them can dribble. :SHOCK::SHOCK::SHOCK:
 
fmicablues7 said:
PSD stats work wonders in PES3 IMO. I always felt that PSD stats would overrate players in PES6, but in PES3 it is perfect. I found there are even more fouls and more intelligent runs, surely due to the higher teamwork and mentality standards in PSD database.
I know @miguelfcp said this on Amador's topic : "Player individuality: Other football games/patches' databases only have pro-level players, so there's absolutely no individuality at all because every player is at least above average on any given skill. On Amador, there are players with 10 dribble speed, midfielders with 40 top speed, strikers with 58 attack, and players with -60 mentality and teamwork. The best of the bunch will stand out and you'll notice it."

That is absolutely not my experience with PES 3. Ronaldo (the brazilian) is so much different than Henry and so on. Little differences like 95 and 92 in body balance are very obvious. I believe it is less the case the more you move forward in time in the series. Maybe, as the game became more "free", the stats lost also their weight. Some might argue PES 3 is too rigid, but stats worked amazingly well and produced a lot of diversity.
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@fmicablues7 , Yup, spot on as always. (BTW, hope you are back playing the king of games and am sure a game against Juventus, Rekordmeister or Europort will end your dull winning streak).

PES 3 has never come close to being matched. It refined and adjusted the excellent Player stats database of PES 2 and made every stat a bit lower but even a subtle numerical difference of say 85 instead of 81 showed on the pitch. And the speed merchant players were always balanced by having inferior dribble, technique and agility numbers than midfielders like Roberto Baggio or Juan Roman Riquelme, who were quite slow but so technically superb that you just could not get the ball off them.

And finally, before I go completely off down memory lane, the big lads in PES 3 have this kind of hidden ability to keep possession that their stats don't suggest. This is so realistic to the actual game where players like Duncan Ferguson or Les Ferdinand could hold off defenders all day.

Just saw that other football game's telly commercial last night and it made me......:SICK::SICK::SICK:
 
@fmicablues7: Interesting stuff there. I've played PES6 patches that used PSD stats and was really turned off by the outcome, it made the gameplay a lot more arcadey.
Also I remember reading - I think in the PES5 guide - that there's a lot more difference between a "dark red stat" (95+) and another dark red stat than a 81 vs 88, for example...don't know if this nuance had already been introduced back in PES3.
What I do know is the stats in PES3 have a very obvious influence on the game indeed. I've edited my beloved FC Porto on it with its current roster and it's a joy to watch how I was able to replicate each player's real-life playing styles - and I didn't even mess around with the "special ability stars" yet. A guy like Marega (90+ aggression) is always looking for space behind the defense, Brahimi is as fun to dribble with as he's fun to watch dribbling in real-life, and crossing with Alex Telles is addictive.

@WhoAteMeDinner: From PES09 PS2/PSP onwards, the players' ball control was improved and made the ball always stick closer to the players' feet. I've written about this before, but while it made CPU players harder to steal the ball from, it also made it too easy to dribble - even at full speed - with even the most mediocre of dribblers. Overall I like both systems as each has its own advantages and disadvantages, what I do know is that this small gameplay tweak made a huge difference between PES08 PS2/PSP and PES09, though both use the same "platform" of gameplay, and in my opinion it works better in PES08.
 
miguelfcp said:
@fmicablues7: Interesting stuff there. I've played PES6 patches that used PSD stats and was really turned off by the outcome, it made the gameplay a lot more arcadey.
Also I remember reading - I think in the PES5 guide - that there's a lot more difference between a "dark red stat" (95+) and another dark red stat than a 81 vs 88, for example...don't know if this nuance had already been introduced back in PES3.
What I do know is the stats in PES3 have a very obvious influence on the game indeed. I've edited my beloved FC Porto on it with its current roster and it's a joy to watch how I was able to replicate each player's real-life playing styles - and I didn't even mess around with the "special ability stars" yet. A guy like Marega (90+ aggression) is always looking for space behind the defense, Brahimi is as fun to dribble with as he's fun to watch dribbling in real-life, and crossing with Alex Telles is addictive.

@WhoAteMeDinner: From PES09 PS2/PSP onwards, the players' ball control was improved and made the ball always stick closer to the players' feet. I've written about this before, but while it made CPU players harder to steal the ball from, it also made it too easy to dribble - even at full speed - with even the most mediocre of dribblers. Overall I like both systems as each has its own advantages and disadvantages, what I do know is that this small gameplay tweak made a huge difference between PES08 PS2/PSP and PES09, though both use the same "platform" of gameplay, and in my opinion it works better in PES08.
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Choosing a stats database for PES has always been a questionable topic. Each database has his own strengths and weaknesses. There are particularly three databases which stand out :

PSD Stats:
+The stats-makers have generally very good knowledge about attributes and how they work in-game
+People can post their opinions
+Regular updates for most players
+Individuality stand out
-maybe a bit biased ?
-not adapted for every PES game

Konami Stats:
+Obviously, Konami knows how their game work, so their values and standards are always a great help, if not accurate
+Individuality stand out
-Anything besides stars players is generally garbage
-Lots of errors in weight/height/positions

FM Stats:
+Huge database
+Same standards for every players
-Attributes are very different from PES ones, even the attributes which look similar
-Hard to figure out a formula
-Weird/overrated stats for some players

What kind of stats did you use to implement current Porto players ?
 
@fmicablues7

I guess Konami, like you say, know how their games work so I would think the 'star' players of the time of each edition are highly accurate and maybe that's the crux of it, that's where their mark should be in relation to other players. So for instance taking FM Stats, let's say Roy Keane's short passing is 75 in PES6 (no idea what it was just plucking a figure out of thin air) and for the same year in FM it's 13. Then a 13 for passing in FM you could say should be a 75 for short passing in PES and so on. I remember Heskey being remarkably similar to the real player, even to falling over all the time. Again though, like you say, lots of errors in their stats so you'd have to use those star players to base it on as they will be the accurate one's.

The ideal way would be of course to know each player extremely well and work your own stats out (as Miguel has done for Porto and we could probably all do for our own teams, but none of us would be working to the same standard so while it would portray our team really well, they probably wouldn't be balanced when playing each other. So it's just not feasible for an option file full of teams so for me FM is 100% the way to go and always has been. It has a huge database, all players are measured the same and the majority of players are genuinely 'scouted'. Now of course we all have our own valid opinions on players that will differ but the key is the database is for the most part, as you say, the same standards, so the relation to other players will be consistent across the board.

I've evolved my formulas over time and I'm pretty happy with them now (although they can still improve of course and probably always will continue to evolve) I would love to see how the Amador file would translate into PES3/4/5 but unless someone makes a pes3/4/5 editor with an import csv then that isn't going to happen unfortunately, unless someone wants to manually type the stats in and that sadly isn't me!

On Amador, something I mentioned to Miguel, having seen how many fouls we're getting compared to the standard PES6 I'm really wondering now whether Konami didn't in fact 'reduce' the fouls from PES5 to 6 and onwards as such, but rather raised the threshold of what would cause a foul. Reducing some of those key stats such as balance has brought back many of the Pes 5 type fouls, knocking players over in challenges and so on.

I've also thought about using a site like whoscored which has a lot of the opta type stats. Particularly for long/short passing. I think it's fair to take the pes stat as a % being it's on a 1-100 scale. A prime example is Jordan Henderson who has something like a 91% pass accuracy but watch him closely and all he does is pass it sideways and back to his CB's 90% of the time. His short passing is 95% but check out his long passing stats and his completion % is 51%. So, as an example, could you use that and have his short passing at 95 but long passing at 51. The only problem is with a 95 for short passing would he suddenly become a danger around the box with great through balls which he can't do in real life? Personally I just wouldn't play him anyway but that's just me :LOL:

Anyway it's something I've thought about because after all it is a 100% accurate stat for the current season and each player would be 100% accurate and relative to each other. It would be interesting to see how implementing those stats would play out on the pitch. I might try the passing stats for a couple of teams and try it out. It would be interesting if nothing else. Could use shot accuracy as well, shots to shots on target and so on. It's something I'm going to explore anyway


EDIT: Just looking at the pes stats explanation as well and I think that passing stat could work because it can be adjusted with the pass speed which is defined as the higher this value the more the player is able to make short passes that are difficult to intercept. So perhaps using 'key' passes which is also a stat on who scored that could be used to bring down the pass speed so in Henderson's case, his 95 would translate to good short passing in open situations but get in tight spots or looking for through balls and they wouldn't be precise and quick. Hmm, definitely going to give this a try now.
 
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@fmicablues7: Great analysis there, it's indeed a topic that should be more discussed.

PSD Stats: Agree with everything there. Regular updates, accurate statsheets, and at least the top leagues have stats for every player.
- Tendency to overrate. I spent a few years without looking at their stats, now I'm catching up and it seems they're overrating less; however it's still there. This seems to be their vision about how the game should play like, mine is a bit more cynical. I've given -60 pass accuracy to FC Porto's Marega, for example, and poor Attack and Defense stats to Óliver Torres to mimic his real-life football tendencies; they prefer more balanced statsheets always, whereas I'm less afraid to "drop the hammer" and give very high or very low stats when I think a player deserves so.
Still they accurately capture the strengths and weaknesses of the majority of players I see there, it's just that my vision is a bit different.

Konami: They've improved in recent years (the fact that PES19 has a statsheet with less stats than a 15-year-old PES helps...) but still, has a lot to improve. Even star players have obvious mistakes, and on more obscure ones it's even more so.

FM: As you say, FM stats are different than PES - even if they have the same name - so I avoid using it. In a database like our Amador it works because every player is made-up, with real-life players we'll always be judging whether their virtual playing style is realistic compared to what we know about the player in reality.
@mattmid is a fan of it but I have concerns not only about the fact that FM stats don't always do the same thing as a PES stat with the same name, but also with the stats' influence on each game engine. Considering your example Matt, Roy Keane has 13 passing on FM's engine, but on the engine of PES, would it translate to a 75 really? Or could PES' passing accuracy system within its own engine be different than FM's, therefore making a 13 passing a 85 on PES (for example)? Don't know if I'm making myself clear, but consider that the difference between a 95-97 stat is much more obvious than a 78-85 on retro-PES, does that happen on FM as well (difference between a 19-20 being more pronounced than a 12-15?) If it doesn't, "translating" FM to PES is even harder.

To answer your question Fmica, I used my own stats but am checking with both PSD and Konami always. My stats knowledge is very limited these days, so if I end up creating non-portuguese teams, I'll be having to use those.
 
@miguelfcp I don't know whether FM's 'gaps' are rigid. I believe so, but whether they have an internal decimal point rating I have no idea. For instance they may be 13.1, 13.5, 13.7 etc, so in fact on a 1-200 rating scale. The 95+ thing does create it's own problem with PES but my point with FM stats is it doesn't really matter if 13 is a 75 or an 85 as long as each FM player with a 13 is the same. The PES number can be adjusted to a level you feel is correct for that player and then the formula adjusted so a 13 will come out at the number you want on PES, be that 50, 75 or 85.

You're right in what you're saying in Amador, we have no knowledge of these players, no pre conceived idea's of how they should perform therefore we can't say, oh he wouldn't be able to do this or that, or is not that good in the air and so on. But the point is these are based on FM stats from lower level leagues and translate into a very good game on PES6 with the key reason being, in my opinion, that they 'relate' to each other.

There's 4452 players put into 140 teams completely at random and the teams are all competitive to one degree or another, that for me is the value of FM stats. The key is translating them into PES in a realistic way. The fact Amador captures that lower level football feeling so well is a testament to the FM stats. I think over time I've come to work out which FM stats to use for what where as you rightly say some PES stats have no direct comparison and a bit of a mix and match of similar stats is required. Also key to Amador I think is something I've worked on a long while which is to get a system in place for ATT and DEF which has been key to being able to translate many different levels of football realistically (I hope!).

Of course it is even better if you can get individual players really playing like their real life selves and fine tuning of the player if you have good knowledge of them will always be better because it will then match your 'view' of that player.
 
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