PES 2019 Discussion Thread (PS4, XB1)

I wish someone would do some input lag tests in football games, like testing how much time it takes a player in Pes to react to the moving, passing, shooting input but it's definitely something that has to do with fluid animations.

Fifa feels more twitchy when you move the players but quicker to react, while Pes has more frames in animations but is slower to react.

The worst input lag was in Pes 2014, where you had to wait almost half second for the player to start reacting to control input, it was unplayable, especially at release.
 
I would really like to see some of the members in here at the ball and count how long it takes from me pushing a buzzer until the execution of the shot. I bet we will be "slightly" above 0.5 seconds.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Disagree. Old games had huge player reaction delays. Thats why you felt player weight and players with better response. 2019 represents that perfectly.

Funny about ML (and i agree its frustrating) that actually fans asked for "more hardcore ai because its too ez". Well there we have it.
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I don't think when "hardcores" found game "too ez", had in mind that your stats will be flattened, CPU stats will be boosted no matter the team and the CPU playstyle will be dictated by the programming script, producing moments against the match flow.

I do not assume my self skillful player, but after all these years, i am experienced enough to judge if the CPU gameplay is cheating you or it is close to reality simulation , despite the wins or losses.
 
philla said:
I would really like to see some of the members in here at the ball and count how long it takes from me pushing a buzzer until the execution of the shot. I bet we will be "slightly" above 0.5 seconds.
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Fully agree. The moment you decide to kick you are starting the kick process - locking on target, adjusting your body and swinging your foot. The more precise or powerfull shot the longer you need to place it.
In old games ball was just ejected from your players feet hardly without any animation.
I think Pes is perfect regarding animations and realism when on the ball.
We can discuss the whole AI and yes, it would be nice to see more improvements there, but response-wise it is how it should be.
How many balls and goal scoring opportunities are wasted in real life because players were on the wrong foot or off ballance or were trying to controll the ball?
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Disagree. Old games had huge player reaction delays. Thats why you felt player weight and players with better response. 2019 represents that perfectly.

Funny about ML (and i agree its frustrating) that actually fans asked for "more hardcore ai because its too ez". Well there we have it.
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Perfectly? I just had a game where bonuventura beat giroud to aerial balls 9 times out of 10!
 
I have re-posted about the CPU-AI. 2015-2016 was decent despite the mandatory R2 low corner shoots(talking about the AI's play-style only, not including other game-breaking issues). 2017 had a very good AI ,they could work 2017's AI as base and produce from there,although it lacked some challenge after seasons, your team became OP in ML . In all these past version 2015-16-17 you could easily feel the pressure in a derby or a knock out match against ManUnited or Chelsea, you could identify ID's playing against Barcelona or Cheonsang Teayang!

I remember in the very bad 2016 it took me 3 seasons in EPL to start taking draws or winning with LEEDS united in derby games against Liverpool or Chelsea, i could feel Hazard and Willian smashing me through the flanks.
After 2018 and 2019 there in no consistency in the AI. The one day you can beat Barcelona 1-4 away and the other day you can loose from Pabrowiestein 1-3 with 15(9) shots from you and 3(3) shot from AI! When this keeps repeating every now and then in the ML season, it is something weird.

I do not demand the perfect human-style spiritual AI , but watching back in the series you can find that they have achieved far better AI for CPU or at least closer to a Simulation.
 
I don't know why in 2019 the answer to responsiveness problems should be less frames per animations, to be honest. It's not the first time I hear this and I've always thought about it as a super ugly, easy cop out to the problem while you could take the opposite route, namely to add more breaking micro-animations correctly tied to the main slower ones.

Regardless, if the alternative is to see an almost non-existent super fast touch or movement I'll take the realistic, slower animation every single time. Reducing frames and make it look unrealistic should never be considered if the goal is to reproduce something that resembles real football.
 
Also some patterns and routines still exist in the CPU-AI, although the latest patch fixed much of the AI playstyle. When the game wants you to concede a goal, or to post it better, when the CPU is in need of a goal in last minutes ,they are not doing any fancy experiments with nice football and joga bonito. The routine is still the same, :l1:+:triangle: to the winger low cross with double cros :circle:+:circle: and tap in/first time shoot :square:. It is like the cut-back pass we used to use in PS2 era against the CPU.
 
slamsoze said:
Also some patterns and routines still exist in the CPU-AI, although the latest patch fixed much of the AI playstyle. When the game wants you to concede a goal, or to post it better, when the CPU is in need of a goal in last minutes ,they are not doing any fancy experiments with nice football and joga bonito. The routine is still the same, :l1:+:triangle: to the winger low cross with double cros :circle:+:circle: and tap in/first time shoot :square:. It is like the cut-back pass we used to use in PS2 era against the CPU.
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Is the CPU actually pressing the buttons? That makes me think, would be kind of cool to have a VR mode where you can look to your side and the AI is just sitting there on the couch, controller in hand, playing against you, then after the game you also get a rating for how much abuse you shouted at it
 
Isslander said:
Is the CPU actually pressing the buttons? That makes me think, would be kind of cool to have a VR mode where you can look to your side and the AI is just sitting there on the couch, controller in hand, playing against you, then after the game you also get a rating for how much abuse you shouted at it
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It is meant to do, since the philosophy is one CPU controlled player to simulate a virtual opponent, although it does not technically pressing buttons, as it executes moves without any latency. You are in a permanent disadvantage ,but this limitation is due to current technology, so it does not matter at all.

If you want it better the AI makes lobbed through pass, low cross and first time shot, without buttons! :P
 
makavelli963 said:
Is there a reason that every pitch has vertical lines as a turf texture when using wide cam. Has anybody else noticed that when in replays or during goal kicks, the patterns switch depending on viewing angle.

Btw how is it that AI teams have insane ability to keep picking up runs and execute perfect passes at all times when any of my defenders leave even half a meter of space for any of the attackers. It is super tiring trying to keep my defenders close enough for those passes not to succeed no matter the quality of the opposition, because my defensive AI teammates are extremely stupid unless I control where they stand at all times, and because I can at most position one or two of my own defenders it becomes a chore to defend just due to the sheer accuracy and potency of the passes and the shots from the AI. The game is still good but this is an issue that has been present on the higher difficulties for a long long time. I can kind of accept if KdB picks out one amazing pass here and there, but to have somebody rated in the 70s perform the same accurate and lethal passes completely sucks out the fun.

I hate to bring attention to scripting, but it is definitely present in this game. Especially in Champions League matches, derby matches and late match situations against any random decent CPU team. It is a two fold problem because not only is the AI suddenly godly with quick rapid passes and accurate shots, but my defenders and midfielders decide not to follow players or position themselves in natural spots towards the end of the game.

It is strange to say, that even with the multitude of problems in regards to AI, scripting, localization, lack of turf options, underwhelming turf textures etc, etc.

There still is a decent football game here, yet it just feels like I am playing the same teams over and over and over again in ML, as they all exhibit very similar patters in regards to shooting and passing. This monotony saps out the joy, and monotony in my own passing and shooting resulting similar end results 99% of the time is bad too. I can not recall the amount of times, a CPU defender will out sprint a fresh neymar, or how often a pass that looked on is just snuffed out by the way the ball decides to spin into the path of the defender. Hope they eventually sort it out.
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I 100% hear exactly what you are saying and feel cheated by the same issues. The auto-positioning of non-cursor selected defenders is absolutely shocking and is done intentionally so to make CPU through balls more punishing. Even when you switch the cursor to the defender nearest the ball, you can actually feel a force or a tide pushing your defender into an area where he can't cut out a passing lane or make a tackle. You have to constantly override the movements the AI makes on your behalf.

As for the scripting, the very obvious scripting either occurs directly from kick off or at the end of a game, if the CPU is behind. In these instances, you may as well close your eyes and have a sleep. There's nothing you can do. Even if manage to defend the situation, the CPU will make one of your teammates run into you to cause a ricochet, which just happens to fall perfectly at the feet of their striker, who will smash the ball into the top corner (another gripe - almost every CPU goal is high and bullet like).

I think the biggest actual issue is that CPU patterns of play are all so easy to read but very difficult to stop. Same with the scripting. However, these issues simply cannot really be fixed. They exist intentionally, to create a level of difficulty. Unfortunately for us, if they altered their tactical approach and lessened the scripting, Superstar level wouldn't feel all that difficult. The CPU doesn't have an alternative method of playing. They'd have to re-write the code and re-program the game engine. It might happen in future releases but I honestly cannot see a patch fixing it.

One example, I am halfway through 1st season of ML with Lyon. I have just played a Ligue 2 side in the Cup and they cut through me with the same precision as Monaco or PSG. Exact same style of play, same passes, same goals - long ball forward to Striker - flick back into midfield - through ball down the middle or out wide - shot. Because of Konami's weird insistence that you can only tightly mark one player at a time, 2 of their 3 forwards always have ridiculous amounts of space and ultimately punish you for it, regardless of their OPR.
 
I understand all these posts, and I can´t deny I see these things happening. But I always believed (and said it last year) that tactics are very important. No one cares about that, but I believe that the game forces you to change tactics, RPG style, you´ll have to make decisions like, play the same tactic and keep a high TS, or change tactic to counter the CPU and risk playing with a lower TS.

I´ve noticed today, that this "mumbo jumbo scripting" you all talk about is not that effective. The way I see it, the CPU punishes you if you don´t use the "correct" tactic. My normal tactic let´s me play quite well against 1 or two strikers, but if CPU uses 3 forwards, then I´m screwed. The key here, is to avoid the ball getting into the box at all costs, and sometimes I have to sacrifice the attack to maintain a proper defense. Same goes for CPU, if they play more attacking, I can see ways of punishing them, as long as I get the ball. The way CPU does this "punishment" might not be realistic, its true. But on the other side I like the fact that I actually have to see how the CPU is playing and react acording to it, and I must say, if I do it well, it works.
The one thing that bugs me is that if CPU sees a break, they use it flawlessly. I don´t have any problem with low pass to the box, because if I had that chance, I would do it too. But to see it as a realistic thing, CPU should miss a bit more on these situations. Other than that, I blame myself mainly for poor use of my team, and yes, a bit of unresponsiveness based on low TS.
 
ono5985 said:
One example, I am halfway through 1st season of ML with Lyon. I have just played a Ligue 2 side in the Cup and they cut through me with the same precision as Monaco or PSG. Exact same style of play, same passes, same goals - long ball forward to Striker - flick back into midfield - through ball down the middle or out wide - shot. Because of Konami's weird insistence that you can only tightly mark one player at a time, 2 of their 3 forwards always have ridiculous amounts of space and ultimately punish you for it, regardless of their OPR.
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Tight marking is made for a purpose, and usefull against one striker for example. It´s good when the oponent plays the ball to the same player over and over again. On other situations, normal individual marking works better, depending on your defenders overall, and also the instructions you have on your team.
 
Good posts above.
Mine was pretty much me losing a few games and got properly pissed off
My issue is taking over a very good team and no matter what having a low TS.

It doesn't always work that way,my first Milan ML, I had between 72-85 depending on who's my captain.
A well established team should have a good TS,4-5 losses and it should go down to keep it more realistic.

The reaction time is very realistic,rather have a realistic button lag or what ever it is,than having players not having to set their bodies right first to shoot.
I'm sure I'll enjoy this game a lot in the future

@slamsoze fully agree on the Cpu AI for 15-16-17.
I'd wish they would have that back.
Pes 15 is a very tough game
 
@rockstrongo
On Pes18 there was a way to play around with players settings and positions to raise initial TS. I remember watching some clip from Spoony Pizzas, where he started ML with some team and had 50TS. Then he majiged things around and got it to 98 before even starting the match. Dont know if the same can be done on Pes19.
Personally I dont really care about initial TS as I pick shite team and im ready to have first shitty season. It was always like that so Im used to that.
 
Emroth said:
@rockstrongo
On Pes18 there was a way to play around with players settings and positions to raise initial TS. I remember watching some clip from Spoony Pizzas, where he started ML with some team and had 50TS. Then he majiged things around and got it to 98 before even starting the match. Dont know if the same can be done on Pes19.
Personally I dont really care about initial TS as I pick shite team and im ready to have first shitty season. It was always like that so Im used to that.
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Yeah if I had the same outlook I'd happily accept a shitty TS.
And I usually do,always trying to build a good side within 5 season,but I lost it when taking over Boca and having 67 TS without any transfers.

I pretty much play the tactics that has the highest TS,but in this case it was all crap no matter.

If you fiddle around you can get a decent TS.
Btw, Argentinian League and Chilean,never played a ML there before,so much potential,players shooting all over the place.

When I've calmed down I'll go back to it.
 
Madmac79 said:
I don't know why in 2019 the answer to responsiveness problems should be less frames per animations, to be honest. It's not the first time I hear this and I've always thought about it as a super ugly, easy cop out to the problem while you could take the opposite route, namely to add more breaking micro-animations correctly tied to the main slower ones.

Regardless, if the alternative is to see an almost non-existent super fast touch or movement I'll take the realistic, slower animation every single time. Reducing frames and make it look unrealistic should never be considered if the goal is to reproduce something that resembles real football.
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Should have been more clear, maybe less frames was not the right terminology, I meant the amount of time it takes for frames to execute certain actions is too long.
 
philla said:
Thank god it does. Players feeling like humans instead of hyperresponsive pilotfish on speed is a great thing when it comes to realistic socer gaming.
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On the other hand having the engine play all of the animations required for a certain action, and it taking an unnatural time to execute is not realistic either and is not human at all. There needs to be balance. You can have an amazingly well animated game, that is also responsive and quick. In PES 2019, certain actions, by top level athletes take far too long to execute. It hurts my enjoyment of the game because, I expect general in game movements such as walking, sprinting, accelerating, running and slowing down to be more accurate and responsive. Even simple actions like switching lanes feel sluggish, even with extremely highly rated players.

They need to blend animations better, and cut down on time to execute.
 
makavelli963 said:
On the other hand having the engine play all of the animations required for a certain action, and it taking an unnatural time to execute is not realistic either and is not human at all. There needs to be balance. You can have an amazingly well animated game, that is also responsive and quick. In PES 2019, certain actions, by top level athletes take far too long to execute. It hurts my enjoyment of the game because, I expect general in game movements such as walking, sprinting, accelerating, running and slowing down to be more accurate and responsive. Even simple actions like switching lanes feel sluggish, even with extremely highly rated players.

They need to blend animations better, and cut down on time to execute.
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Do you have any video examples of actions which are too slow in your opinion? There are a lot of factors (like game speed setting and player stats) which should have an influx on this, so it would be highly interesting to talk about a concrete thing.

What i normaly do is to compare the gameplay 1:1 to a real game footage. Regarding player movement, -2 is the best experience to archieve this. And even on -2 the player movement and animations tend to be a little bit faster on PES at times.
 
slamsoze said:
Also some patterns and routines still exist in the CPU-AI, although the latest patch fixed much of the AI playstyle. When the game wants you to concede a goal, or to post it better, when the CPU is in need of a goal in last minutes ,they are not doing any fancy experiments with nice football and joga bonito. The routine is still the same, :l1:+:triangle: to the winger low cross with double cros :circle:+:circle: and tap in/first time shoot :square:. It is like the cut-back pass we used to use in PS2 era against the CPU.
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Yes, i totally agree that there is a “strange” behavior that the game has when is vs Cpu especially ML matches.It was there in previous versions but it is really big this year. Although things got better after patch ,it there ,it is just less annoying post patch. However, the issue is not only with Cpu boost in certain situations. The worst thing that literally drives me crazy ,is that when they cannot score even with their boost on, then the mechanic of the game turns our cpu controlled defenders to amateurs without brain so that cpu can score. This is the worst by far & it causes frustration & disappointment at the same time. I mean, I can bear some OP cpu dribbling-shooting by a strong cpu attacker. I will say :Ok I have to improve my defense vs some players because they are special in real life & they can produce some great moments but it is really cheap to play solid on D and suddenly you see defenders to turn deliberately to the opposite side that ball is coming just for cpu goal.

And for me the reason that this is happening is because the haven’t succeed fixing things like player individuality. I think that it all starts from this. Because if they did, then when some players dribbled with the ball as they should ,doing moves that would be difficult to defend then the game will be completely different, it would be difficult for the defense vs them & the game would open differently & in more realistic way. Instead of this now we have players that almost do & play the same ,they don’t dribble they don’t do things with the ball in their feet. This is killing the game. That is why cpu gets so much one dimensioned & when the need to score badly they start unrealistic one touch passes from the middle of the field ending with a goal from the box after one tough backheel pass or a goal from classic cross vs a totally ultra- defensive Prepared line. It’s like there is no matter how hard your team is defensing because when it comes to their magic pass your defender goes to the other side of the ball…If you know to play solid D, then this is the one way they can score. The other is to transform complete cpu team players to super humans with unlimited stamina that they can genpress all the time until they steal the ball at your area & score.

All of the above are happening because the company cannot make players play like real footballers when it comes to individuality & we have the above behaviors when the cpu needs to be challenging
 
Went back to this yesterday (I know I know).

In Master League I won the pre season trophy with Newcastle United!! One of my goals I actually left their defender for dead with the pace of Rondon and slotted it home for a 2-1 win in the 92nd minute.

And get this....I WAS AWARDED A PENALTY! in the second match. I scored it. I celebrated like Xmas had come early.

I absoutely love this game when it's on song, there is nothing like it. Unfortunately I also get too annoyed with it.
 
Emroth said:
@rockstrongo
On Pes18 there was a way to play around with players settings and positions to raise initial TS. I remember watching some clip from Spoony Pizzas, where he started ML with some team and had 50TS. Then he majiged things around and got it to 98 before even starting the match. Dont know if the same can be done on Pes19.
Personally I dont really care about initial TS as I pick shite team and im ready to have first shitty season. It was always like that so Im used to that.
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Ir is simple.Pick a ML team with its official squad (not the ML) defaults.Set up the formation you want,position picks instructions etc.Save the formation.Exit to main menu, go to edit mode/edit team/gameplan change /load and apply to them the formation you saved in ML ,the once you saved before.save and exit edit mode.
Then start a new ML pick the team you picked before where you applied the tactics and voila!Your starting TS is up.
 
fefepes said:
Why would i take proof of something thats been happening since release? Sounds like you just dont want to admit pes is not perfect
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It's more like we can all have anecdotes and make statements but without proof they're all just as worthless as the next.

I played against Lyon yesterday as Milan, Cutrone beat Denayer in the air 9 times out of 10.

I play as Chelsea more than any other side, I've never had any issues winning the ball in the air as Giroud. Now it's my word against yours.

Proof helps, it adds context and legitimizes statements.
 
It's been a while since I posed here.
But for modding reasons, I've been going back to PES lately. Doing stuff, and testing them, kind of forces you to play even when you don't intend to.

So... I thought I'd post this:

The difference between playing PES (in generally, but more so in this 2019 version) in Exhibition Mode and or the rest of them (yeah, not just ML) is abismal.

I actually like PES 2019 in Exhibition Mode.
But whenever I try to start a League Mode or a Cup Mode, or a ML, there's something completely different. Even when playing with and against the same team AND the exact same setting I'd JUST played in Exhibition.

Players are less responsive, less active, and clumsier.
Dribbling becomes less and less likely.
Less randomness.
Less freedom.
The AI becomes harder, even on the same difficulty level as in Exhibition.

I don't know what the heck goes on.
So frustrating. I can't find any reasonable explanation behind it
Expect for the fact that maybe they don't even know why it happens themselves. Or maybe it's a piece of code that's been buried somewhere a long time ago. And since clearly they hardly play/test the game thoroughly, that's why they don't notice these things - Otherwise how would you explain that they released a game in the state it was pre-update? With a one-dimensional AI, doing the same things over and over, again and again?. They don't play the game for hours and hours like we do!
 
@Chuny
It must be affected by script/scenario and TS. There is no other explanation. Exhibition mode is pure gameplay, where AI is completely free from any background stuff and it just plays according to tactics.
TS is a great addition, but it affects too much. It affects everything. It should only affect player runs and tactics.
If you want to play quick one two players shouldn't "understand" your intentions and go to position with low TS.
TS should be dynamic. Same way they claim we have Adaptive, dynamic AI that learns our style and adapts, same way TS (AI team mates) should learn our and help us along with high TS.
It shouldnt affect passes, shots and everything along those lines. These should be affected only by stats and pass/shot error should always be present based on them.
If AI team spirit is high they should be able to break your defense with great runs and creativeness, but once they have shooting opportunity, outcome should be determined by shooting stats.
I remember seeing some screenshots from PC where every AI team was set to 99TS when you play against them.
As much as i like the idea of TS, if they cant implement it properly they should get rid of that altogether or give us the option to have it or not have it in ML.

I see all your complaints and I know where you are coming from. AI one dimentional football is still there and there is plenty of room for improvements.
Having said all that, I find the game enjoyable post patch and with all the issues I, personally, cant really complain looking at my league table. Im in the middle, loosing with strong teams and winning with weaker.
And since i switched back to manual and dropped to professional AI tiki taka and momentum are much less visible.

Im still hoping they will be tweaking gameplay with every data pack and at the end deliver us a complete package.
Because once Pes19 is polished and at its full potential - there wont be any need whatsoever to get Pes next year.
Unless they bring some groundbreaking changes, which I highly doubt they will.
 
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