PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

iluvnineties said:
I suggest you read the evo web better lmfao. Pes12 is crap. Tried it last night for 4-5 matches... 5th mmatch I turned off my ps3. Pes5 has better animations and gameplay than this garbage.
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So what's the difference between trolls who get banned and this guy. It's not even his opinion i find annoying (i.e i don't care if he doesn't like PES 2012. Read my posts, i've got a lot of negatives to say about the game. I really like WE9LE before he gets the wrong idea). I'm sure i'm not the only one who finds the things he says utterly pointless.

Edit: Just saw Pere Ubu's post. Dat's what am talkin' 'bout.
 
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ctruppi said:
If we went by Evo-Web every new PES is shit. I just perused some of the old discussions and funny that you bring up PES5. When it 1st came out, these boards were fuming with people who hated the game speed and cpu cheating and everyhting else and why did they bother buying the new one when they should have just kept playing PES4 and on and on. This game may indeed be crap as you say, but the fact that Evo-Web is aflame is no proof of such a claim - if so, no new PES would ever be decent.
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Exactly. Nothing new going on. Ctruppi has been here since 2003, so have I. Take our word for it.
 
Expander said:
So what makes a simulation and how do you define it?and what element of pes2012 would you gauge as simulated?.Stats?because the ball doesnt behave realistically,the animation is unrealistic,the keepers arent reaslistic,the collision system is firmly rooted in the 1990s and the pace of the game is a far cry from real footie.Add to this the fact that the tempo is generally forced on you and pes is so scripted and contrived theres no real game balance anymore if there ever was in the first place.

Same problem as its always been this gen,konami are totally unable to free themselves of the confines or walls that they created on the ps2,instead choosing to remix rather then truly innovate or evolve.

My posts arent a celebration of fifa,there based on facts and something real and tangible.Its called being grown up and acknowledging the strengths of another product,not,living in blind hope that a insular developer only interested in there bottom line and recycling old tech actually makes a statement again and produces something landmark.

This is a problem affecting 90% of the gaming output from japan currently,which with the exception of nintendo is killing the japanese gaming industry.Any modern business and developement model follows the same trend now to re-invest and create a better product.Not live off past glories and totally BS your customers each year.
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There is a confusion amongst gamers between "authenticity" and "realism". Most shooters (COD, Medal of Honor, etc) strive for authenticity - that is the guns sound real, the atmosphere is immersive, the storyline makes sense for the subject matter, the color pallete creates a mood, and on and on. These games purposely try not to get too much "realisim" into these games which would literally destroy the fun (one shot to the arm and you're down). FIFA is designed exactly the same way. The authenticity is mind-boggling. Licenses, uniforms, atmosphere, stadiums, modes, etc all ooze an "authentic" soccer experience. Unfortunately, there is little "realism" in FIFA for the same reason - EA know that the vast majority of their fan base don't really want the investment of really figuring out the tactics and strategies. Yes, they give you game sliders, but these are game enhancements which further immerse the player in "authenticity". I have tried every FIFA since '94 and I have never once felt compelled to stop a game, really look hard at my formation and tactics and figure out a change (subtle or major) that I felt would alter the course of the match. And I'm willing to bet most FIFA players don't either! Two reasons: the tactical abilities are severely limited (for in-game tweaks) and the real lack of player individuality makes the point mute. Have you seen the video where the guy is playing FIFA as a Bundesliga reserve team vs Barca (yes, that Barca) and he puts the GK as striker and the guy scores?!?! That would never, ever, ever happen in PES. Actually it would never happen in any game designed for people over the age of 13 - or grownups as you called them.

PES, on the other hand strives for "realism" while miserably failing on "authenticity". Yes the licenses are a key issue, but beyond that, they do a terrible job with animations and other buggy stuff that takes the player out of that "authentic" immersion. Better presentation and commentary would also help in this area. On the field however, I have never felt there is even a remote comparison. Playing FIFA, it's basically an exercise in learning and mastering a control scheme and knowing that pressing a certain sequence of buttons with a certain timing will typically yield succsessful results. While playing PES, I am pressing buttons, but I more often than not, am thinking about how a real soccer player or coach would approach the situation. It's not about Gattuso hitting a perfect pass because I've mastered the timing of the pass button and have memorized my teammate and opponent CPU tendancies (FIFA), it's about me looking up and saying "oh shit, where's Pirlo" and getting him the ball becaus he has a better chance of making the pass (PES). PES is about having trouble scoring because the defense is arranged in a formation, then going into the gameplan screen and moving my AMF forward 10 yards and to the left 15 yards and changing his role to SS. And then going back to the game and this subtle change actually pays dividends and creates goalscoring chances I have yet to see. You know, just like when this happens in a typical EPL or Serie A match. Yes, there is scripting in PES, but when you learn to avoid the situations that cause the scritping you realize that you're actually playing real soccer.

I hope that answers your question.
 
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Expander said:
This is a problem affecting 90% of the gaming output from japan currently,which with the exception of nintendo is killing the japanese gaming industry.Any modern business and developement model follows the same trend now to re-invest and create a better product.Not live off past glories and totally BS your customers each year.
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I agree that tech wise Japanese developers are so far behind but quality wise, by that i mean originality, then Japanese games lead the way. If you asked me then i'd say all western devs do is build on tech but rely on the same ideas. I know that isn't part of your argument at all but if you can name me a more creative publisher than Atlus i'll give you a shiny dime. I don't think its fair to say that 90% of the Japanese gaming market is shit, as you suggest. I believe that 90% of it just doesn't meet the different standards of the West.

Also we shouldn't forget,
Their first release, Dead or Alive, was comparable to other fighting games released at the time, though one of the things that made it stand out were the "outrageous physics" used for female fighters in the game, causing breasts to bounce even for simple actions such as walking.[49] Home console versions allowed players to toggle bouncing on or off.[50]

When porting Ninja Gaiden 2 to the PS3, violence and gore were reduced, and three female playable characters were added.[51] The game also made use of the PS3's unique SIXAXIS controller, by allowing players to individually control the bounce of these female characters' breasts

Now that's forward thinking technology. ;)
 
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ctruppi said:
There is a confusion amongst gamers between "authenticity" and "realism". Most shooters (COD, Medal of Honor, etc) strive for authenticity - that is the guns sound real, the atmosphere is immersive, the storyline makes sense for the subject matter, the color pallete creates a mood, and on and on. These games purposely try not to get too much "realisim" into these games which would literally destroy the fun (one shot to the arm and you're down). FIFA is designed exactly the same way. The authenticity is mind-boggling. Licenses, uniforms, atmosphere, stadiums, modes, etc all ooze an "authentic" soccer experience. Unfortunately, there is little "realism" in FIFA for the same reason - EA know that the vast majority of their fan base don't really want the investment of really figuring out the tactics and strategies. Yes, they give you game sliders, but these are game enhancements which further immerse the player in "authenticity". I have tried every FIFA since '94 and I have never once felt compelled to stop a game, really look hard at my formation and tactics and figure out a change (subtle or major) that I felt would alter the course of the match. And I'm willing to bet most FIFA players don't either! Two reasons: the tactical abilities are severely limited (for in-game tweaks) and the real lack of player individuality makes the point mute. Have you seen the video where the guy is playing FIFA as a Bundesliga reserve team vs Barca (yes, that Barca) and he puts the GK as striker and the guy scores?!?! That would never, ever, ever happen in PES. Actually it would never happen in any game designed for people over the age of 13 - or grownups as you called them.

PES, on the other hand strives for "realism" while miserably failing on "authenticity". Yes the licenses are a key issue, but beyond that, they do a terrible job with animations and other buggy stuff that takes the player out of that "authentic" immersion. Better presentation and commentary would also help in this area. On the field however, I have never felt there is even a remote comparison. Playing FIFA, it's basically an exercise in learning and mastering a control scheme and knowing that pressing a certain sequence of buttons with a certain timing will typically yield succsessful results. While playing PES, I am pressing buttons, but I more often than not, am thinking about how a real soccer player or coach would approach the situation. It's not about Gattuso hitting a perfect pass because I've mastered the timing of the pass button and have memorized my teammate and opponent CPU tendancies (FIFA), it's about me looking up and saying "oh shit, where's Pirlo" and getting him the ball becaus he has a better chance of making the pass (PES). PES is about having trouble scoring because the defense is arranged in a formation, then going into the gameplan screen and moving my AMF forward 10 yards and to the left 15 yards and changing his role to SS. And then going back to the game and this subtle change actually pays dividends and creates goalscoring chances I have yet to see. You know, just like when this happens in a typical EPL or Serie A match. Yes, there is scripting in PES, but when you learn the situations that cause the scritping you realize that you're actually playing real soccer.

I hope that answers your question.
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Bud,your teaching me to suck eggs and ive never patronished you like you are me.Ive also been playing the finished game for over a month so am not jumping to early assumptions.

I work in this industry and my feild is AI,so im hardly some jumped up 13 year old and theres not a konami footie game i havent played since the NES way back when.

Im also aware that pes thrives on the principles modern video games try to eliminate,unpredictability,inconsistency and the feeling however irrational,that the games is unfolding to a scripted outcome irrespective of the frenzied activities of the protagonists on the pitch...it is at its worse a terrible video game but as such a almost perfect simulation of football.......but that was back on the ps2 and maybe to some degree last year but these old arguments dont wash anymore in 2012.

The novelties worn thin and games have evolved......pes hasnt.And what does it matter if the core of football is there but most of the components feel broken.Read my posts i thought the first and second we2012 demos were sublime and konami had a real nugget of a game.But in true seabass style he wrecked it,its pes if it aint broken its not pes.

I generally play the halflifes,bioshocks and zeldas of this world,i dont subscribe to the mass market pap that is COD.I also learnt my trade on the zx spectrum and bbc micro,so fancy presentation and graphics arent what im about.

Of course all the media are wrong as are alot of people alot older and more knowledgable then you.......geeez what a jerk you are.
 
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ctruppi said:
There is a confusion amongst gamers between "authenticity" and "realism". Most shooters (COD, Medal of Honor, etc) strive for authenticity - that is the guns sound real, the atmosphere is immersive, the storyline makes sense for the subject matter, the color pallete creates a mood, and on and on. These games purposely try not to get too much "realisim" into these games which would literally destroy the fun (one shot to the arm and you're down). FIFA is designed exactly the same way. The authenticity is mind-boggling. Licenses, uniforms, atmosphere, stadiums, modes, etc all ooze an "authentic" soccer experience. Unfortunately, there is little "realism" in FIFA for the same reason - EA know that the vast majority of their fan base don't really want the investment of really figuring out the tactics and strategies. Yes, they give you game sliders, but these are game enhancements which further immerse the player in "authenticity". I have tried every FIFA since '94 and I have never once felt compelled to stop a game, really look hard at my formation and tactics and figure out a change (subtle or major) that I felt would alter the course of the match. And I'm willing to bet most FIFA players don't either! Two reasons: the tactical abilities are severely limited (for in-game tweaks) and the real lack of player individuality makes the point mute. Have you seen the video where the guy is playing FIFA as a Bundesliga reserve team vs Barca (yes, that Barca) and he puts the GK as striker and the guy scores?!?! That would never, ever, ever happen in PES. Actually it would never happen in any game designed for people over the age of 13 - or grownups as you called them.

PES, on the other hand strives for "realism" while miserably failing on "authenticity". Yes the licenses are a key issue, but beyond that, they do a terrible job with animations and other buggy stuff that takes the player out of that "authentic" immersion. Better presentation and commentary would also help in this area. On the field however, I have never felt there is even a remote comparison. Playing FIFA, it's basically an exercise in learning and mastering a control scheme and knowing that pressing a certain sequence of buttons with a certain timing will typically yield succsessful results. While playing PES, I am pressing buttons, but I more often than not, am thinking about how a real soccer player or coach would approach the situation. It's not about Gattuso hitting a perfect pass because I've mastered the timing of the pass button and have memorized my teammate and opponent CPU tendancies (FIFA), it's about me looking up and saying "oh shit, where's Pirlo" and getting him the ball becaus he has a better chance of making the pass (PES). PES is about having trouble scoring because the defense is arranged in a formation, then going into the gameplan screen and moving my AMF forward 10 yards and to the left 15 yards and changing his role to SS. And then going back to the game and this subtle change actually pays dividends and creates goalscoring chances I have yet to see. You know, just like when this happens in a typical EPL or Serie A match. Yes, there is scripting in PES, but when you learn to avoid the situations that cause the scritping you realize that you're actually playing real soccer.

I hope that answers your question.
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+1 This post sums it all up....the things i could do with Pirlo back on the ps2....makes me emotional thinking about it

Edit: I'm firmly in the 'great game, could have been better camp' btw, I really like the game, just don't love it, and that's the games fault not mine because it was so close.
 
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goalgerd said:
european club soccer v1 will be released tonight by 12am for uk ps3 gamers
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Haha, What a game! Puts PES 2012 animations to shame :))

Edit: I thought you meant this.....

immagini%5Cfoto%5Cmegadrive%5Ceursoccer.jpg
 
ctruppi said:
There is a confusion amongst gamers between "authenticity" and "realism". Most shooters (COD, Medal of Honor, etc) strive for authenticity - that is the guns sound real, the atmosphere is immersive, the storyline makes sense for the subject matter, the color pallete creates a mood, and on and on. These games purposely try not to get too much "realisim" into these games which would literally destroy the fun (one shot to the arm and you're down). FIFA is designed exactly the same way. The authenticity is mind-boggling. Licenses, uniforms, atmosphere, stadiums, modes, etc all ooze an "authentic" soccer experience. Unfortunately, there is little "realism" in FIFA for the same reason - EA know that the vast majority of their fan base don't really want the investment of really figuring out the tactics and strategies. Yes, they give you game sliders, but these are game enhancements which further immerse the player in "authenticity". I have tried every FIFA since '94 and I have never once felt compelled to stop a game, really look hard at my formation and tactics and figure out a change (subtle or major) that I felt would alter the course of the match. And I'm willing to bet most FIFA players don't either! Two reasons: the tactical abilities are severely limited (for in-game tweaks) and the real lack of player individuality makes the point mute. Have you seen the video where the guy is playing FIFA as a Bundesliga reserve team vs Barca (yes, that Barca) and he puts the GK as striker and the guy scores?!?! That would never, ever, ever happen in PES. Actually it would never happen in any game designed for people over the age of 13 - or grownups as you called them.

PES, on the other hand strives for "realism" while miserably failing on "authenticity". Yes the licenses are a key issue, but beyond that, they do a terrible job with animations and other buggy stuff that takes the player out of that "authentic" immersion. Better presentation and commentary would also help in this area. On the field however, I have never felt there is even a remote comparison. Playing FIFA, it's basically an exercise in learning and mastering a control scheme and knowing that pressing a certain sequence of buttons with a certain timing will typically yield succsessful results. While playing PES, I am pressing buttons, but I more often than not, am thinking about how a real soccer player or coach would approach the situation. It's not about Gattuso hitting a perfect pass because I've mastered the timing of the pass button and have memorized my teammate and opponent CPU tendancies (FIFA), it's about me looking up and saying "oh shit, where's Pirlo" and getting him the ball becaus he has a better chance of making the pass (PES). PES is about having trouble scoring because the defense is arranged in a formation, then going into the gameplan screen and moving my AMF forward 10 yards and to the left 15 yards and changing his role to SS. And then going back to the game and this subtle change actually pays dividends and creates goalscoring chances I have yet to see. You know, just like when this happens in a typical EPL or Serie A match. Yes, there is scripting in PES, but when you learn to avoid the situations that cause the scritping you realize that you're actually playing real soccer.

I hope that answers your question.
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Brilliant post, absolutely spot on. You summed up both games perfectly. :WORSHIP:
 
This game online, played against fair-players on Zero Assistance and with Non-Premium teams is a truly incredible experience. The balance is like nothing I have ever experienced. Truly amazing, I'm gobsmacked as to how realistic these games are playing out.

I've started my own Zero Assistance Community and will be starting a Community League within the next 10 days once I have enough members. :)
 
Expander said:
Bud,your teaching me to suck eggs and ive never patronished you like you are me.Ive also been playing the finished game for over a month so am not jumping to early assumptions.

I work in this industry and my feild is AI,so im hardly some jumped up 13 year old and theres not a konami footie game i havent played since the NES way back when.

Im also aware that pes thrives on the principles modern video games try to eliminate,unpredictability,inconsistency and the feeling however irrational,that the games is unfolding to a scripted outcome irrespective of the frenzied activities of the protagonists on the pitch...it is at its worse a terrible video game but as such a almost perfect simulation of football.......but that was back on the ps2 and maybe to some degree last year but these old arguments dont wash anymore in 2012.

The novelties worn thin and games have evolved......pes hasnt.And what does it matter if the core of football is there but most of the components feel broken.
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I reiterate a point YOU brought up in YOUR original post that I responded to:

"My posts arent a celebration of fifa,there based on facts and something real and tangible.Its called being grown up and acknowledging the strengths of another product,not,living in blind hope that a insular developer only interested in there bottom line and recycling old tech actually makes a statement again and produces something landmark."

Like soccer gaming, you need some definite rehabilition in the area of English vocabulary. If insinuating that I'm not a grownup because of my opinion of a footy soccer game isn't "patronizing" then I need to burn my dictionary!

But, getting back to the subject at hand - PES and FIFA. You didn't answer my question. Have you seen the video with the GK from the reserve team scoring against Barca in FIFA? Please comment on this specific item and how your entire argument is still valid. Doesn't this prove that FIFA is broken? How can anything be sim if the impossibe (or extremely, highly improbable happen)?
 
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Jimmy G-Force said:
This game online, played against fair-players on Zero Assistance and with Non-Premium teams is a truly incredible experience. The balance is like nothing I have ever experienced. Truly amazing, I'm gobsmacked as to how realistic these games are playing out.

I've started my own Zero Assistance Community and will be starting a Community League within the next 10 days once I have enough members. :)
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What platform you on? Im on 360 and found online plays nothing like offline, reminded me more of Club Football than PES 2012
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
This game online, played against fair-players on Zero Assistance and with Non-Premium teams is a truly incredible experience. The balance is like nothing I have ever experienced. Truly amazing, I'm gobsmacked as to how realistic these games are playing out.

I've started my own Zero Assistance Community and will be starting a Community League within the next 10 days once I have enough members. :)
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Why can't you get the game on PC instead of PS3? Dammit. :P

But yes, it is an incredible experience. I've had quite a number of matches against evo-webbers the past few days, and it's amazing how every match plays out differently. I've had dull,cagey 0-0 draws, and also 3-2 BPL style end to end thrillers.
 
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fernadez said:
+1 This post sums it all up....the things i could do with Pirlo back on the ps2....makes me emotional thinking about it

Edit: I'm firmly in the 'great game, could have been better camp' btw, I really like the game, just don't love it, and that's the games fault not mine because it was so close.
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Pirlo was much younger in the PS2 days, so that may explain this issue!!

Actually, I'm mostly in agreement, although PES12 is growing on me. Ask me in Dec and I'll give my final verdict.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
This game online, played against fair-players on Zero Assistance and with Non-Premium teams is a truly incredible experience. The balance is like nothing I have ever experienced. Truly amazing, I'm gobsmacked as to how realistic these games are playing out.

I've started my own Zero Assistance Community and will be starting a Community League within the next 10 days once I have enough members. :)
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It is, actually. From a tactical point of view, this game is the real deal. It's just the fact Konami seem to be unable to make their AI look more human which makes me want to pull my hair out. Even after swallowing my pride and accepting the fact I'm once again essentially paying for and playing a PS2 game, the AI just make me weep. I think I'd manage to get by if I had likeminded friends who'd appreciate slow, tactical gameplay but seeing how that's not the case I'm forced to deal with the AI for my PES-fix and even after two weeks of play that part of the game is not growing on me at all.

Very impressed with some of the debating in here by the way. Some very valid points made by both sides of the argument.
 
ctruppi said:
I reiterate a point YOU brought up in YOUR original post that I responded to:

"My posts arent a celebration of fifa,there based on facts and something real and tangible.Its called being grown up and acknowledging the strengths of another product,not,living in blind hope that a insular developer only interested in there bottom line and recycling old tech actually makes a statement again and produces something landmark."

Like soccer gaming, you need some definite rehabilition in the area of English vocabulary. If insinuating that I'm not a grownup because of my opinion of a footy soccer game isn't "patronizing" then I need to burn my dictionary!

But, getting back to the subject at hand - PES and FIFA. You didn't answer my question. Have you seen the video with the GK from the reserve team scoring against Barca in FIFA? Please comment on this specific item and how your entire argument is still valid. Doesn't this prove that FIFA is broken? How can anything be sim if the impossibe (or extremely, highly improbable happen)?
Click to expand...

Of course a goalkeeper can score in real life,he might not have the technical ability of a good striker or cf but he could still drill a shot home.Havent seen the video,dont care and i could show you many of pes2012 that dispel your wild claims and throw it into the realms of fantasy.So youve got your pes2012 and in defense your using the ps2 version to support your argument,thats lame.

Lets talk about realism then,why are the weaker teams and players in pes so weak.This isnt simulation or realistic because even a champioship player can hold players off,hit a descent first time strike or pass,run and have a high degree of technical ability.According to seabass only the top teared players can do this.

This is the whole hypocracy of pes and general pes fans which im one of.And when did i say fifa was the be all and end all.Someone needs a reality check just stick with pes2012 for a few more weeks your see.
 
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ctruppi said:
Pirlo was much younger in the PS2 days, so that may explain this issue!!

Actually, I'm mostly in agreement, although PES12 is growing on me. Ask me in Dec and I'll give my final verdict.
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Think it was the way you could open up any defense or midfield with him, he was my most important player, purely because of his range of passing, short, long manual cross field through balls...the whole lot.

I myself have started having some really good games now as I get adjusted to the game, the thing I feel my problems with the game were never gonna stop this from happening, I also knew how good the game was, how it's improved from 2011. I'm just noticing subtle points that could have probably been tweaked in a couple days, that would have made the experience much better and more fulfilling...like sorting this fumbling, staggering over when a defender looks at my shirt from behind for example.
 
I'm trying, but i'm really not warming to the game. It's strange, because i got into demo 2 very quickly. I have to say i feel a bit cheated, as i've ended up with a game that plays nothing like the demo that i appreciated. I've played a few games now and i haven't had a single fun one, nor have i had any inspiring moments. Most of them are spent noticing annoyances in gameplay. This isn't a moan, but merely my thoughts, as i give every year in the early stages of a release.
 
Im posting on ps3, so i`m going to use few words: the game IS desapoiting. Online is GARBAGE as i expected, but im not talking about assisted passing wich is completely pro~noob and pick up and play, its the sprinting and pressure that RUINS the game again.Defendoding is skilless imo, plaers can close u down too fast, its easier to steal the ball than the demo, refs are clearly worse. The game is completely ANTI hardcore online.

Offline can be decent with the right settings. Overall speed, -2 is the best, but the ball physics feel floaty at times. I think the game could really be nice, it needs some good teawks, but konami don know how to balance the game like the old days and can't get some things right, thats the truth.
 
Yup, but i don't see how people are moaning about people complaining, to pay £40 for something that you seen+played differently, isn't exactly going to have everyone being in good, fun moods. I'm having same problem, the games so buggy, i can't really express fully my disapoint at the xbox version of pes, it's like they barely put much work into it and focused mainly on pc and ps3 as thats what sells most in japan, just before anyone jumps on this, bare in mind i've not really seen/heard any bugs on these platforms as of yet.

Luckily i'm saving for a new pc as that seems only way i'm going to get any enjoyment out of pes this year
 
Dear fellow soccer gamers,

For me, playing a game always has to do with imagination. Imagination is what lies between a realistic showcase and the fact that in the end everything you see is not real. You always have to put your mind at work when playing a game, at least - that is what I think. Games that defy that just don't do it for me. The thing I like in PES is the way you can use your imagination: I have played soccer games for god knows how long (Emlyn Hughes Soccer), and I always played them with a fantasy league consisting of teams that are inhabited by my friends, acquaintessens, relatives and heroes (I also have a team with famous writers, for instance). Each team has his own playing style, key players, jersey etc. There has been no other game where I could do just that as good as I can do it in PES2012. That is not only because of the great editor, but also for the way everything you edit works out on the pitch. For instance: I created a team called 'Twin Peaks' (remember the series?) and I want them to play an extreme attacking play. Well, they exactly do that, switching positions, and midfielder Cooper pacing the game. Exactly the way I imagine they would play. So I am really, really enjoying this edition.

Is there anyone out there who plays the game in this way? Or is everyone just trying to emulate the real world?
 
Can anyone tell me how to control my keeper when he collects the ball. I'm playing on manual but cannot change cursor to the keeper when he is in possession.

Sooo frustrating, as the computer controls instead and blasts the ball upfield.

Someone please help.....
 
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