PES 2009 General Discussion Etc. (STRICTLY NO FIFA TALK OR POLITICAL CHAT)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Badgerman said:
Well I certainly can't tell if the ball's bobbling from a youtube vid but I'm guessing it is.
Click to expand...
Excuses again. "Oh, I can't see that because of the quality of the video".

Why do you always have to contest every bad word said about the game? :SS
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

That is a woeful route to go down.

I say that I can't judge the ball bobbling from the blurry vids we've seen so far. You then give me a youtube video where the ball is roughly 6 white pixels. I can't judge shit from that.

I think the more appropriate question is why are people always looking for the worst in this game.

edit: I have jesus, real football and logic on my side. I cannot lose.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Maybe i am mad but to me the ball bobble just right, i saw Roma-inter last night and even considering that San Siro is the worst italian pitch the ball didn't bobbled a lot.

On the other hand i admit that the ball looks sort of braked while running at speed, its a bit strange to look at but but maybe gameplay wise its better who knows.. and honestly the running animation coupled with the automatic shot feint its so bad that its distracting me from the ball.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

The only problem with that is. WTF was the goalkeeper doing!?

That was a huge bug and the only reason why that goal went in, so it's not a good thing to be honest.
Click to expand...

I was trying to focus on the cross and the indirect free kick. In all fairness, I can concede that it was a bug, but I can also concede that the French player pressed the triangle button for the keeper to come out.

kobashi said:
badgerman you can clearly see the ball near enough stopping dead when the players dribble. It looks very strange and your argument is weak!
Click to expand...

Oh, for f's sake, come on now, you can really do better than that... What's next? The grass doesn't budge when it's stepped on?

From 0:08 in that video - and there are better examples:

(these frames are read

1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
)



The camera is always focusing on the ball, could it not be an optical illusion?

I picked the first dribble in FIFA09's first video in FSB (the last two he's turned but I didn't notice at the time, 'cause I could spot no contact).



Sadly I'm no artist, so the presentation is lacking, but come on guys, give me a break. So the FIFA dribble is longer - like the one in PES where you use R1+R2 or double-tap the forward arrow. Thus, it is stronger, therefore the ball has more inertia to it.

But never in anyone's sane dreams would someone say that the ball in the PES videos drops dead at the players feet. Can your eyes not follow the grass stripes??? Seriously???

Next thing I'm going to listen to is someone saying that real-life car wheels are badly animated because they turn backwards when the car is over 100km/h.

Oh, and Rob92: you want to see the ball bounce on a real-sized video? Look at the Seabass interview posted a couple of pages ago in HD. There's plenty of balls bouncing there on normal passes as well. Hope I made your day.

Granted, not all passes bounce the same - namely the through balls, which have a forward spin applied to them. And I wouldn't expect the ball to bounce much on a well kept grass - a ball is heavy, the grass is not that short, I would assume that there would need to be some great bumps somewhere for the ball to bounce off on passes that don't lift the ball by themselves. But that's just me, from memory.

When the pass is strong enough to lift the ball, or the foot hits the ball in an angle where it lifts the ball a bit, the ball will bounce.

I'm sorry I'm a bit over the edge, but these arguments aren't worth the effort of being up this late on a work day trying to get frame by frame comparisons of a ball during a dribble, or looking at an HD video to see a ball bounce.

I'm off to bed, I really need to rest.

Best regards to all, no matter which way do you see the ball in your video animation...

Paulo Tavares
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

See folks, we are not here making shit up. We are genuinely saying things as they are.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Badgerman said:
That is a woeful route to go down.

I say that I can't judge the ball bobbling from the blurry vids we've seen so far. You then give me a youtube video where the ball is roughly 6 white pixels. I can't judge shit from that.
Click to expand...
Seriously? I, and most others can judge how the ball (even if it is small) bounces and bobbles from the surface by looking at that video.

Badgerman said:
I think the more appropriate question is why are people always looking for the worst in this game.
Click to expand...
Well there isn't much else we can talk about to do with it is there? After all we have seen almost everything in the videos from PES3/5/08, shows how far the game has come on since then...

Normally a new version of a game comes out you can discuss it's major improvements and it's new features - Not the case here as there are not many new major features/game modes worth discussing (CL and Be a Legend are the only two I can think of) and there are no major gameplay improvements, they are simply making it play like a previous games in the series... When a company looks backwards, that is a negative sign to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

The PES3/5 thing is a meme that has caught on.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but repitition is the key to the door that is success.

Older Pro Evo games are being mentioned because they were very good. A subtle hint in regards to 2009 not being like PES3 and PES5 is that both PES3 and PES5 have little in common.

Also, good for you can judge subtle features from that video. Unfortunately the quality is substantially lower than, say, if you were playing the game in HD. It's good for getting a general glimpse as to how the game will play, but I'm not going to judge how realistically the ball is rolling when I can't even see the pattern on the ball.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

The ball bobbles from the start of most passes, like I would suspect, ofcourse then it should start rolling, infact I would say it wouldbe pretty crap if it kept bouncing and bouncing. Most pitches should be nice enough to play a short low pass with the ball not bouncing at all, depends on how you kick it, if the pitch has ditches and divets it would bounce. So the passing argument can go either way. But on PES from what I have seen, on short passes there is a suitable couple of bounces, then it rolls, which to me is fine.

Now the dribbling, I need to have moreof a description, to fully understand what you mean, as obviously the ball stopping dead could be anything, and if you mean after its been kicked while dribbling the ball stops dead, that is certainly not true.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Badgerman said:
The PES3/5 thing is a meme that has caught on.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before but repitition is the key to the door that is success.

Older Pro Evo games are being mentioned because they were very good. A subtle hint in regards to 2009 not being like PES3 and PES5 is that both PES3 and PES5 have little in common.

Also, good for you can judge subtle features from that video. Unfortunately the quality is substantially lower than, say, if you were playing the game in HD. It's good for getting a general glimpse as to how the game will play, but I'm not going to judge how realistically the ball is rolling when I can't even see the pattern on the ball.
Click to expand...
Both PES3 and PES5 were very good games at the time, but mixing aspects of both into the same game and giving it HD graphics does not make it acceptable to me for a 2008, next-gen game.
Progress needs to be made, advantage should be taken of new control methods and processing power... Analog sticks have no use in PES games, as it's fully 8-directional. That is a joke for a new game, I can't think of any other games nowadays which only uses 8 directional control.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Seraphs21 said:
words
Click to expand...


Oh God, I agree with a scummer.

Rob92 said:
Both PES3 and PES5 were very good games at the time, but mixing aspects of both into the same game and giving it HD graphics does not make it acceptable to me for a 2008, next-gen game
Click to expand...

Which is a good point, except for the fact that I haven't seen a Konami press release or anything mentioning that PES2009 is lifting bits from the aforementioned games and giving them a coat of HD.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

pjft said:
I was trying to focus on the cross and the indirect free kick. In all fairness, I can concede that it was a bug, but I can also concede that the French player pressed the triangle button for the keeper to come out.



Oh, for f's sake, come on now, you can really do better than that... What's next? The grass doesn't budge when it's stepped on?

From 0:08 in that video - and there are better examples:

(these frames are read

1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
)



The camera is always focusing on the ball, could it not be an optical illusion?

I picked the first dribble in FIFA09's first video in FSB (the last two he's turned but I didn't notice at the time, 'cause I could spot no contact).



Sadly I'm no artist, so the presentation is lacking, but come on guys, give me a break. So the FIFA dribble is longer - like the one in PES where you use R1+R2 or double-tap the forward arrow. Thus, it is stronger, therefore the ball has more inertia to it.

But never in anyone's sane dreams would someone say that the ball in the PES videos drops dead at the players feet. Can your eyes not follow the grass stripes??? Seriously???

Next thing I'm going to listen to is someone saying that real-life car wheels are badly animated because they turn backwards when the car is over 100km/h.

Oh, and Rob92: you want to see the ball bounce on a real-sized video? Look at the Seabass interview posted a couple of pages ago in HD. There's plenty of balls bouncing there on normal passes as well. Hope I made your day.

Granted, not all passes bounce the same - namely the through balls, which have a forward spin applied to them. And I wouldn't expect the ball to bounce much on a well kept grass - a ball is heavy, the grass is not that short, I would assume that there would need to be some great bumps somewhere for the ball to bounce off on passes that don't lift the ball by themselves. But that's just me, from memory.

When the pass is strong enough to lift the ball, or the foot hits the ball in an angle where it lifts the ball a bit, the ball will bounce.

I'm sorry I'm a bit over the edge, but these arguments aren't worth the effort of being up this late on a work day trying to get frame by frame comparisons of a ball during a dribble, or looking at an HD video to see a ball bounce.

I'm off to bed, I really need to rest.

Best regards to all, no matter which way do you see the ball in your video animation...

Paulo Tavares
Click to expand...


Paulo, não perca seu tempo respondendo a bobalhões que não têm mais o que fazer a não ser criticar e criticar. O melhor a fazer é ignorar esses infelizes que insistem na mesma briga fifa x pes. Venho aqui em busca de notícias sobre o PEs e tudo que encontro são as mesmas velhas brigas, seus posts são realmente uns dos poucos que se salvam!

Continue concentrando-se apenas nos comentários pertinentes, ignorando os que não merecem suas respostas.

Abraços,

Honome
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Rob92 said:
Normally a new version of a game comes out you can discuss it's major improvements and it's new features - Not the case here as there are not many new major features/game modes worth discussing (CL and Be a Legend are the only two I can think of) and there are no major gameplay improvements, they are simply making it play like a previous games in the series...
Click to expand...

Yes, the other route is - when there's no new stuff to talk about we bash it for being similar.

We talk about new things:

- ball physics, which we like so far (or at least some of us),
- the new control method that's being pushed more actively (the old semi-fixed one)
- the become a legend mode, which sounds class
- the possible CL license
- the off-the-ball movement
- the new animations
- online multiplayer
- Legends mode

This seems like new stuff for PES 2009. You can like them or you may not like them. I respect.

Why don't you go to the FIFA thread talking about new modes and new features then, and leave this to talk about new things on PES?

What's that?

- New ball physics
- improved animations
- Improved controls
- Be a Pro career mode
- 10 vs 10 online

Wow, that sounds an awful lot like PES's changes. Why are these being praised in that thread, and the equivalent in PES being bashed by you? Why are they worth discussing there, and worth bashing here?

If you are going to compare the changes to FIFA, that's a whole new topic, and I'm not going to delve into it. Some of them are better in FIFA, others are subjective, and others may be better in PES. I'm really not getting into it, see? Because that's not the point of this thread.

This thread is just to talk about new things in PES.

Come on. Can there be such a difference in criteria when it comes to PES's improvements and features and FIFA's ones?

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares

[EDIT:]

[PT] Obrigado Honome_WEC. Só estou a tentar manter a thread um pouco moderada para ver se não descamba de novo...
[UK] Thanks Honome_WEC. I'm just trying to keep the thread a bit moderated, just to make sure if it doesn't go off track again...
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

ARTHILHEIRO said:
Will be possible play PES 2009 (UK) in a american PS3 console?
Click to expand...


obviusly all ps3 games are region free.....you maybe can have problems with the format of your tv.....for example some games pal, canot play in an ntsc tv......

sory for this offtopic.

Just 2 days....to the NDA finnish
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

What I find odd is that with the negative nancy's being confronted with the fact that the game has been improved, harking back to the days when PES was good, the line of attack has been changed to PES is taking a backwards step because their last good game was PES6.

Well I'm pretty glad that they're not focusing on PES2008 as a base and surely that's something we can all be thankful for.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Placebo said:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/39069.html
Click to expand...

My main concern with watching this video is that it is simply more of the same. My current footy game of choice is PES6 on the PC. It is heavily edited (thanks to Evo-Web) and the graphics and gameplay are fantastic.

Nothing in these videos appear to really change much of anything. As a longtime player of the series, I already know how to do the R2 dribble moves and initiate the L1+X runs off the ball... so as much as I appreciate Konami making these functions more automatic in PES2009, it really doesn't change the overall game experience to me.

I'm still on the fence as to whether I'm buying PES 2009 or not. Given that the single player experience will probably offer less (it is already of absolutely no challenge to me) than PES6 which I already have, I'd only be purchasing it for the multiplayer (which admittedly is pretty damn fun).

I'm certainly buying FIFA as it looks to be pretty good this year, and it's newness will at least provide me a challenge until I master the gameplay... which would be a nice change.

This has been a problem for me with PES over the years, I'm so used to the gameplay that as soon as I unwrap the game I can already destroy any AI opposition from the get-go and the only challenge comes from multiplayer. Here's hoping things are a bit different this year, but there isn't much to indicate any single player improvement other than the be-a-pro type mode.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Haha agree with a scummer :D

I play fifa and see some of the crap that happens, they can trap the ball perfectly pretty much everytime, and it looks so off, the way they control some passes is off, and its my biggest complaint, as half the time the ball passes through the player so they can make the touch, which is not realistic, in theory if they cant make the touch, they shouldnt, the game shouldnt force it to happen. But the players can be running, ball played waist height from behind, the ball will like pass through the leg, and he will raise his leg and control it with the inside of his foot easily, and I just have to think he is not in the position to control it, the ball should hit him and bounce away or he should turn, slowing down the passing process so he can control it, which is realistic, and like in pro, means the players in general have to be facing the right direction, as usually, if not, they make a shite touch, and you lose play, and thats another thing I prefer in PES than Fifa.

I dunno if that applied in PES08 much but in PES I always find that you wont pass well and accurate unless you are facing the correct direction and the reciever has the time, space and position to take a touch, if not then it will like be a mis control, which I always found to be done well in PES. Might just be me however.

Probably talking crap anyway haha, but thats how I feel, and what I notice.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

It seems WENB has been hacked..here are tidbits I found in PESFAN...

Originally Posted by someone random
"All of a sudden there was a post that apeared to be Adam reading 'The lies must stop' Then the tread was We are ending the bull , All your information has be given to underground to do what they will with it."
Adam (i think it was the real Adam) apologized and then the site went down.

Originally Posted by Adam from WENB
"Yeh we'll be back even if its a refresh. Right now, because if the time it happened and as its a bank holiday, we cant do much from our end. Thats why we'll know more tomorrow.

And regarding tracing him, I can say we've got so much on this guy its untrue! Lets just say he's left many details, so we'll be passing it onto the police and letting them deal with it.

Mad we're talking like that over a PES site LOL.

But yeh stay tuned "
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

pjft said:
Yes, the other route is - when there's no new stuff to talk about we bash it for being similar.
Click to expand...
I think that's justified, as if no effort is being made to add and improve things, I think it deserves criticism.


pjft said:
We talk about new things:

- ball physics, which we like so far (or at least some of us),
They are better than PES08, but certainly don't stand out against PES5 or 6 as an improvement
- the new control method that's being pushed more actively (the old semi-fixed one)
I didn't look on PES 08, but winston said that the "manual" cursor change setting was almost identical to how that is being described as new. But I reserve making a full judgement on this aspect until I play the demo, as it could be different from that


- the become a legend mode, which sounds class
It does sound good, finally a new game mode introduced into PES. That is good news
- the possible CL license
Would be nice to have but it's just one tournament really. Wouldn't be something you would play a lot unless it had online features
- the off-the-ball movement
I still see the full backs leaving wingers unmarked and other stuff that has been in PES for years, but the off the ball runs seem improved in attacking positions
- the new animations
I didn't see many, and they all look jerky and mechanical, not seamless and flowing
- online multiplayer
Every PES has had this since PES4, and we can't comment on whether the servers will be better or not yet
- Legends mode
I havn't read any info on this yet, or have forgotten what it is

This seems like new stuff for PES 2009. You can like them or you may not like them. I respect.
Click to expand...
Replies in bold, my honest opinions on each point.

pjft said:
Why don't you go to the FIFA thread talking about new modes and new features then, and leave this to talk about new things on PES?
Click to expand...
I wasn't even comparing PES to FIFA recently :SS I was just talking about PES and how I think it lacks new stuff, that is discussing PES, what this thread is about...


pjft said:
What's that?

- New ball physics
- improved animations
- Improved controls
- Be a Pro career mode
- 10 vs 10 online

Wow, that sounds an awful lot like PES's changes. Why are these being praised in that thread, and the equivalent in PES being bashed by you? Why are they worth discussing there, and worth bashing here?
Click to expand...
They are being praised as personally I think some of them are important and there are more of them than you listed. EA also seem to take on board what the community say and look to improve on those aspects instead of just resting on old laurels like Konami are doing.

pjft said:
If you are going to compare the changes to FIFA, that's a whole new topic, and I'm not going to delve into it. Some of them are better in FIFA, others are subjective, and others may be better in PES. I'm really not getting into it, see? Because that's not the point of this thread.

This thread is just to talk about new things in PES.

Come on. Can there be such a difference in criteria when it comes to PES's improvements and features and FIFA's ones?

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
Click to expand...
I did just compare Konami and EA there slightly (you don't have to take any notice :-pp)
As I said before, I was not comparing PES to FIFA and Konami to EA in this thread recently - I cut that out.
I was simply saying, I think Konami's set of improvements for PES is very weak and it has been for a long time. The time a PES game got proper improvements in my opinion was from PES2 to PES3 - from then on it was minor tweaks, and still is, which I don't think is acceptable in 2008, to be given a game which has the core gameplay of something 5 years old.

You make very good posts, all your points make sense and I respect you for that. You are a good contributor to the forums, we just have differing opinions on the two football titles. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that eh? :))

Badgerman said:
Which is a good point, except for the fact that I haven't seen a Konami press release or anything mentioning that PES2009 is lifting bits from the aforementioned games and giving them a coat of HD.
Click to expand...
I think it looks similar to PES3 and 5 in places, and a lot of people who have played it have said this as well.

Anyway, I'm off for now :)).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Zakov said:
It seems WENB has been hacked..here are tidbits I found in PESFAN...

Originally Posted by someone random
"All of a sudden there was a post that apeared to be Adam reading 'The lies must stop' Then the tread was We are ending the bull , All your information has be given to underground to do what they will with it."
Adam (i think it was the real Adam) apologized and then the site went down.

Originally Posted by Adam from WENB
"Yeh we'll be back even if its a refresh. Right now, because if the time it happened and as its a bank holiday, we cant do much from our end. Thats why we'll know more tomorrow.

And regarding tracing him, I can say we've got so much on this guy its untrue! Lets just say he's left many details, so we'll be passing it onto the police and letting them deal with it.

Mad we're talking like that over a PES site LOL.

But yeh stay tuned "
Click to expand...

Oh yeah it was all kicking off here because of that, we had some knob here who I reckon was responsible.

I've also had some other guy PMing me on another forum saying that his site was hacked under similar circumstances. I directed him your way Mart because I don't know shit about what's going on.

I know you've got his IP address but it's obviously going to be a proxy.

He was a very interesting caper, that one.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

That's quite sad that someone would have to hack WENB.

Seriously, someone must not like the fact they are saying PES09 is gonna be good, and actually genuinely liking the demo they played... all to much for some peoples ego's I guess, cant let others say what they think, on the scale they did.

Arewell, they will be back, stronger.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

gawd, and just over a footie game? daft twat.....

Yak, nice vid there....I had no idea Become a Legend was so in-depth, rofl
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Rob92 said:
This should be good enough quality for you to see it:

[youtube]_zzJw9LZ-f0[/youtube]

Only when they're hit at an awkward angle do they bobble enough...
Click to expand...

Badgerman said:
Well I certainly can't tell if the ball's bobbling from a youtube vid but I'm guessing it is.

As for the players running at speed thing, when players run with the ball, the ball doesn't roll at a constant speed, nor does it roll at the same speed as the player is running. You know, it's down to momentum, energy and all that stuff.
Click to expand...

kobashi said:
badgerman you can clearly see the ball near enough stopping dead when the players dribble. It looks very strange and your argument is weak!
Click to expand...

pjft said:
I was trying to focus on the cross and the indirect free kick. In all fairness, I can concede that it was a bug, but I can also concede that the French player pressed the triangle button for the keeper to come out.



Oh, for f's sake, come on now, you can really do better than that... What's next? The grass doesn't budge when it's stepped on?

From 0:08 in that video - and there are better examples:

(these frames are read

1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
)



The camera is always focusing on the ball, could it not be an optical illusion?

I picked the first dribble in FIFA09's first video in FSB (the last two he's turned but I didn't notice at the time, 'cause I could spot no contact).



Sadly I'm no artist, so the presentation is lacking, but come on guys, give me a break. So the FIFA dribble is longer - like the one in PES where you use R1+R2 or double-tap the forward arrow. Thus, it is stronger, therefore the ball has more inertia to it.

But never in anyone's sane dreams would someone say that the ball in the PES videos drops dead at the players feet. Can your eyes not follow the grass stripes??? Seriously???

Next thing I'm going to listen to is someone saying that real-life car wheels are badly animated because they turn backwards when the car is over 100km/h.

Oh, and Rob92: you want to see the ball bounce on a real-sized video? Look at the Seabass interview posted a couple of pages ago in HD. There's plenty of balls bouncing there on normal passes as well. Hope I made your day.

Granted, not all passes bounce the same - namely the through balls, which have a forward spin applied to them. And I wouldn't expect the ball to bounce much on a well kept grass - a ball is heavy, the grass is not that short, I would assume that there would need to be some great bumps somewhere for the ball to bounce off on passes that don't lift the ball by themselves. But that's just me, from memory.

When the pass is strong enough to lift the ball, or the foot hits the ball in an angle where it lifts the ball a bit, the ball will bounce.

I'm sorry I'm a bit over the edge, but these arguments aren't worth the effort of being up this late on a work day trying to get frame by frame comparisons of a ball during a dribble, or looking at an HD video to see a ball bounce.

I'm off to bed, I really need to rest.

Best regards to all, no matter which way do you see the ball in your video animation...

Paulo Tavares
Click to expand...


From the video posted on the previous page, the ball seems to have a bit too much friction on the grass.

Now, that is assuming the pitch isn't wet, and that the pitch is designed to reflect the properties of a well-maintained high quality pitch.


The ball seems to slow down too much and too quickly. Either the ball has too much mass, or the pitch has a bit too much friction. It looks a bit off, when compared to movements in most normal conditions.

It obviously doesn't stop dead. Anyone can see that. But, it looses speed much too quickly after the player kicks it out when running (it sort of looks like it would if the ball hits a patch of water, which it might be unless rain isn't an option for the demo).

HOWEVER, it seems very obvious that this is "wrong" when you compare the movement of the ball @ 0:14 - 0:15. You will notice that the ball looses speed very quickly when it is being dribbled by a player, but when it comes loose and rolls freely, it maintains speed much better along the surface. 2 different, and conflicting, designs for the same thing (ball rolling on grass).


For a football game, I'd expect slightly better (especially when designing the pace of the ball on the surface you ae playing on). Since this is a demo, it is possible this has already been fixed, and that this was just an artifact or slight bug.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I think the litmus test for the game will be how it plays.

If there are bugs that are obviously hindering the gameplay then that will be a big black mark against it. If, however, it's an aesthetic flaw then it becomes less of an issue.

Right now it's too early too tell, but I haven't heard many people talking about one horrendously wrong aspect, infringing on the quality of the game.

I would quote you but it's 2:30 in the am and my clicking finger is tired.

And I'm watching the Democratic National Convention thingy.

Go Ted Kennedy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom