Liverpool Thread

do you consider our squad building plans and sallary structure + salary demands of the players?! also players preferences?
 
lets be realistic here.

we are rebuilding this club.

last season was a huge step in the right direction. we are far from the finished article where we will be consistently good.

I would say the market is difficult and Liverpool are always playing catch up because of what has gone on before the current regime.

with that said, we realistically want to be challenging for top 4, that should be the minimum goal

then a trophy or a stamp or piss our mark on the champs league. we need to remain consistent in the champs league

when we do that then we can expect to compete for the title every year

last season was a bit of a strange one.

I can see the league to be exciting again though
 
Rodgers want´s to buy right players for the system, not spening everything on a superstar who will reconsider the move once we are in trouble etc.. he said all players liverpool want are players who are hungry to give everything to the club and that have imo also re-selling possibility with profit..
 
Yes, if you want to win something you have to buy at least 2 superstars and they will cost you a lot (transfer + salary) and they will behave like divas. Just look at Yaya Toure; but would Mcity win the league without him? Probably not. Similar are situations with Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra...

On the other hand if you set a goal to battle for EURO spot in EPL, not spend more than 25 mil on a player and buy young players with potential you can not expect to win anything in EPL/ECL.
That is what Everton, Porto, Ajax... are doing (teams that do not have a lot of $$$) but if you have have 100-140mil to spend that is IMO setting your goals too low.

I guess we can all agree that with this players and this transfer strategy we can expect +-4th place in EPL next season.
 
Here is a proof that Liverpool's ambition is too low; let's take a look at Mutd and LFC at start of this transfer period (Suarez has left):
-both teams have players for 4th place in EPL max.
-both teams have 100-130 mil to spend.
Mutd has set high goal to challenge 1st position next season and they are buying/targeting top superstar 35-50 mil players (Vidal, Reus, Hummels, Di Maria...).
LFC has set lower goals (why?) and is buying/targeting very good 10-25 mil players (Lallana, Markovic, Bertrand...).

So with very similar starting positions (team that needs rebuilding, a lot of cash to spend) they will start the season with much different teams and ambitions.
 
goldfinger35 said:
Here is a proof that Liverpool's ambition is too low; let's take a look at Mutd and LFC at start of this transfer period (Suarez has left):
-both teams have players for 4th place in EPL max.
-both teams have 100-130 mil to spend.
Mutd has set high goal to challenge 1st position next season and they are buying/targeting top superstar 35-50 mil players (Vidal, Reus, Hummels, Di Maria...).
LFC has set lower goals (why?) and is buying/targeting very good 10-25 mil players (Lallana, Markovic, Bertrand...).

So with very similar starting positions (team that needs rebuilding, a lot of cash to spend) they will start the season with much different teams and ambitions.
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first of all, you can´t compare United and Liverpool in terms of marketing and ability to spend money... i won´t explain why, don´t have time for that. I will only remember you they just spended 30 mil + for Shaw and are paying Rooney 300 000 a week...

Liverpool ambition isn´t to low, but instead of making same mistake as Tottenham, buying everyone who has good career in previous team and played for the NT last season from Bale money, Liverpool have seems to me, or at least Rodges has a plan for longer term, with vision to get best out of the players for his team, so they can play his system.

United didn´t buy any of those players you mention... the fact they are linked is because they are United, one of the best teams in world who should go after such stars... they bought Herrera and Shaw, with massive money.. Liverpool bought Lallana and Markovic...now if you compare these 4, i don´t think we bought worse players.. but to compare them you need to see them play first for a whole season in their new teams...

Liverpool has CL this season, United has not...United can go after superstars, but...that doesn´t mean they will be a better team.. also with LVG they have a coach who also rather creates a superstar from the material he has got...United have some very exciting young players to be given chance...in this area we are similar yes...

other than that, wait for the transfer window to be over isntead of making statements that can´t be backed, they are just rumors so far.

edit: also maybe Liverpool are not linked to a superstar signing because, when is the last time we realy bought a SUPERSTAR?! i can´t remember...all the players that are superstars and were playing for us, is it Alonso, Mascherano, Torres (well maybe he was a little bit, but only in Spain), Suarez etc..were not realy SUPERSTARS before...they became those players while playing for LFC..i know we overspend in past, but you can´t realy compare the spending United did on players they realy wanted as first choice with spending Liverpool did in past wiht former owners and managers..that overspending will not repeat.. so you won´t see us splashing 30 milion on a 18 year old, at least i hope so. and with this i don´t want to criticise United and their Shaw deal, long term he might be their LB for next decade, but if he fails...it will be a blow. Liverpool won´t take such risks again, not with owners they have now.
 
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When we sold Torres, and got Carroll and Suarez, it was still a huge risk.
Suarez had never played in the EPL, Carroll was still young.

But Suarez turned out to be the best striker we have had in terms of goals/assists
since ian Rush in the 80s.

The way Rodgers is signing players, we need a good and deep squad.
Last season when we lost people like Henderson or Coutinho, we had no one to come from the bench.

Now, we have Lallana, Markovic, Can as good backup in the midfield.
Up front we will have Lambert and Remy.

Defense we will have more backups.

Every signing is a risk, but with the way Rodgers has made Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho as great LFC players,
I can hope that he will get atleast 50% of our signings as major stars in the next 2 seasons.
 
PIPA23 said:
Liverpool ambition isn´t to low, but instead of making same mistake as Tottenham.
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I have to disagree; Liverpool is doing something very similar to Tottenham last year; Tottenham have sold their best player for 100 mil and bought many young promising very good players worth 10-20 mil (Lamela, Eriksen, Paulinho, Chadli) and 1 already proven very good player (Soldado). That seems very familiar to what LFC is doing this season (Markovic, Manquillo, Obigi, Can + proven Lallana).
A lot of very good promising players and no top/superstar players=6th place.

PIPA23 said:
United didn´t buy any of those players you mention... the fact they are linked is because they are United, one of the best teams in world who should go after such stars...
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True, but as I said, they are targeting them because they have to buy such players to win something, and Liverpool is not even considering top players even with 100+mil budget. They only tried with Sanchez but they didn't even try going after Reus, Hummels, Vidal Di Maria and even Filipe Luis and are instead going for very good.

PIPA23 said:
United didn´t buy any of those players you mention... the fact they are linked is because they are United, one of the best teams in world who should go after such stars...
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That is what I am talking about (mid-table mentality); Mutd is one of the best teams in the world and is buying big and Liverpool is not even with 100+mil?!

PIPA23 said:
edit: also maybe Liverpool are not linked to a superstar signing because, when is the last time we realy bought a SUPERSTAR?!
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Exactly and maybe that is why we have not won much.
I can understand that we have not bought any superstars because our budget was not so large but this season we have 100+mil and there should be no excuses.

bebo said:
Don`t be so harsh mate, Liverpool really wanted Sanchez . Liverpool business is not over.
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I am not harsh but realistic. It is obvious that they are not aiming for top players but instead going for Everton/Newcastle rank of players and hoping that they will become new Suarez (and leave for Real, Barca...).
 
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Not sure what people are asking here. LFC cannot spend like City and Chelsea, they just can't, they have to operate at least close to business reality (although last year was pretty bleak for the bottom line).

Rodgers has to strengthen his squad as he's not going to only have 1 match a week anymore. The only way to do that is with more bodies, even if they're not as good. So some signings look somewhat mediocre, but there are a few points on that:

1. How many truly world class players at their peak have moved to England that didn't go to a sugar daddy club? And I mean in the last 20 years? Veron to United (that went well), and now Sanchez and Ozil to Arsenal. That's pretty much it imo. LFC, MUFC, AFC - none of these clubs have a history of buying the very best players in the world at their peak. To expect otherwise is odd.

2. Some high-profile moves work out. Yaya, Aguero, Silva are good examples. But they went for absolute top dollar. And the list that didn't work out is much longer. City/Chelsea can afford a 30m flop. They'll just offload em and buy a new one next season. LFC/AFC/MUFC can't do that. So you get Berbatovs playing for 5 years. It's far better to take a chance on 3 15m, young players and hope you get lucky. High profile stars that are available to LFC are not guaranteed to work, just guaranteed to cost a lot.

3. Rodgers says the system is the most important thing. Not the individuals. Personally I disagree and think Suarez was absolutely instrumental in making the system work, but we'll see. If he believes in the system, he has to buy for the system. Not names.
 
goldfinger35 said:
I have to disagree; Liverpool is doing something very similar to Tottenham last year; Tottenham have sold their best player for 100 mil and bought many young promising very good players worth 10-20 mil (Lamela, Eriksen, Paulinho, Chadli) and 1 already proven very good player (Soldado). That seems very familiar to what LFC is doing this season (Markovic, Manquillo, Obigi, Can + proven Lallana).
A lot of very good promising players and no top/superstar players = 6th place.
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All those playrs you mentioned were all but what i consider young + promissing.

Lamela was 21, played 6 times for Argentina and 62 games with 19 goals for AS Roma. Young? yes. Promissing?, well...he was already top player for Roma and considered one of best Seria A youngsters. Very expensive as well (£25.8 million, plus up to £4.2 million in bonus payments)

Eriksen was 21, played to date 44 games for Denmark and 113 games for Ajax, scoring 25 times. Young? yes. Promissing?, again he was top player in Eredivision best club at the time of buying + a well experienced national player. Cost? £11 million according to Wikipedia, wich is a bargain for player like him.

Paulinho was 25, played to date 32 games for Brazil and 86 games for Corinthians scoring 20 times, previously playing also many games in other leagues. Young? no. Promissing? He was already finished product player... Cost? £17m, club record at the time. before they broke it on Soldado, wich you didn´t mentioned in your post flopped big time in Tottenham...

Chadli was 23-24, played to date 23 games for Belgium and 84 games for Twente, scoring 25 times. Young? no. 23-24 isn´t young anymore in todays football. Promissing? no. He was already pretty much finished product, who cost £7 million, wich is a fair price for such player.

You didn´t mention Sodlado and Chiriches, both best players of their previous clubs, high profile striker and a top CB at Steaua and Romania NT captain as i remember good... both didn´t live up to expectations..and cost a lot combined.

All in all the Tottenham transfers mentioned were ALL unexperienced in Premier League, bought for the first 11, and in very short period of time, that is why most of them floped...

How can you even compare these players to Lambert, Lallana and Markovic...? First two are proven EXPERIENCED players in Premier league for YEARS, the third is highly rated talented youngster, similar to maybe Lamela transfer for Tottenham in terms of age (Markovic was year younger than Lamela) + money spended and his international experience...Markovic was even cheaper than Lamela, but Lamela had better stats from Roma than Markovic has from Benfica..i believe though Markovic will turn out better in his first season than Lamela did..

I consider players like Sterling, well not even him because he is proven now... players like Ibe, Markovic, etc... promissing and YOUNG, not 23+ year old players who played many times for NT and their clubs...
 
goldfinger35 said:
True, but as I said, they are targeting them because they have to buy such players to win something, and Liverpool is not even considering top players even with 100+mil budget. They only tried with Sanchez but they didn't even try going after Reus, Hummels, Vidal Di Maria and even Filipe Luis and are instead going for very good.
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You are saying stupid things sorry, how on earth do YOU know what players are the team looking at? what is your source? newspapers, tabloids?.... sorry but this is just stupid.
 
PIPA23 said:
How can you even compare these players to Lambert, Lallana and Markovic...? First two are proven EXPERIENCED players in Premier league for YEARS,
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Agree with some of this, but both of those players only have 2 years of prem experience. Not sure I'd call them prem veterans tbh. I actually think this is a huge test for Lallana in particular. 26 years old, only really had 1 great season at this level. Big fee, not clear what his role will be. Will be fascinating.

Lambert will score some goals. Not tons. But some. He'll be a plan B and used sparingly, will be great value at 4m.
 
goldfinger35 said:
Exactly and maybe that is why we have not won much.
I can understand that we have not bought any superstars because our budget was not so large but this season we have 100+mil and there should be no excuses.
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last season we were fighting untill very end with MANCHESTER CITY and probably would have won the leageu wasn´t it for bad mistake of Gerrard and red card to Henderson.. yes we didn´t won it..but we were challenging a team wich maybe 3 time higher speners in terms of transfers and sallary´s...probably highest spenders in world football in terms of what players they are able to buy and pay for...sallary wise.

Buying superstar won´t solve nothing.. City bought superstars and nearly lost the title us last season... Chelsea the same.. i agree we didn´t have the CL, but our squad was without depth as well.. let´s wait and see how we turn out next season before making statements like you did..
 
beachryan said:
Agree with some of this, but both of those players only have 2 years of prem experience. Not sure I'd call them prem veterans tbh. I actually think this is a huge test for Lallana in particular. 26 years old, only really had 1 great season at this level. Big fee, not clear what his role will be. Will be fascinating.

Lambert will score some goals. Not tons. But some. He'll be a plan B and used sparingly, will be great value at 4m.
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i ment mostly enlgish style of football. I didn´t call them veterans so...
 
PIPA23 said:
You are saying stupid things sorry, how on earth do YOU know what players are the team looking at? what is your source? newspapers, tabloids?.... sorry but this is just stupid.
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No Mr. Einstein, Brendon Rodgers and LFC comments in newspapers are my source. LFC will not be going after Reus, Vidal, Hummels, Di Maria rank /price of players.

PIPA23 said:
You didn´t mention Soldado
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And you should ask your eye specialist for better glasses.
 
I agree with beach regarding Liverpool not having the vast resources to spend huge money on some player who may not make it. For example Chelsea spending 50m on Torres.

We already had our fair share of wasting money: Carroll, Downing for 55m

So FSG want to be careful, and let Rodgers buy the players who he feels will benefit the team and the system he has developed over the last 2 years.
Markovic, Lallana, Can are good fits...
Lambert is more of a plan-B striker....and he was cheap.
Lovren will hopefully be a solid CB..
Remy will be a good striker to backup Sturridge and also play with him...

We will surely sign more players....

I can't see LFC spending 40-50m on players like Reus or Vidal because they are playing at teams
who have better chance of success in their respective leagues....unless we pay huge wages...
which we won't do either.
 
I don`t like the comparison w/ Spurs buying loads to Liverpool... what 'if' Spurs play to their potential. This season is their 2nd run ,Lamela was a beat vs Toronto last night :) . Spurs bought w/ a manager who was full of complex n lacked load of confidence . BR has no complex issues ,he's opposite. He sound like he won the 2nd place trophy and hand pick/groom Suarez.
 
Ninja has come back as a Croatian member now.
Pretty much agree with tik's post about Spurs.

That is also why i hope Spurs will perform better this season...
 
Kind of agree that you're not aiming high enough ...yet. It's not unspurs like but the main difference is that Spurs bought all foreign and untried in the PL whilst LFC have signed a couple of decent PL players. THey aren't the world class talent needed to win a league tho. If I was a pool fan I would be anxious about the striker situation, never mind the defense. I would be hoping for a 'marque' player to replace a marqque player in Suarez. LFC have the money and can afford a few players on top wages (140-200k) with the increased revenue and Suarez' departure (he was on over 200k let's remember)
Who knows what will happen this month or so but atm I'm thinking Rodger's et al aren't confident of remaining in the top 4 and so won't risk it. But that's a fulfilling prophecy...
 
I think Spurs will improve this year, with their players having a bit more experience in the EPL
and a much better manager Pochettino at the helm.
They could make this year's Title race even more interesting than last year.
 
Why players like Vidal/Reus/Di Maria etc will leave there clubs for LFC? LFC is not at the stage that Juve, Real, Dortmund, etc. are in the present moment. One year as a title contender cannot erase 6 years of mediocrity. Plus doubt LFC can offer significantly better wages than these already have.

For me LFC is on the right path. Buying young players, with loads of talent, that can be future stars and some solid English players. My only knock is that they should pursue better defenders, even if they have to pay top money. Their defensive line is very poor for a title contender, 50+ goals scored against is something that cannot happen. And this time around there no Suárez to bail them out. Strengthen the defence should be priority no. 1.
 
mathewsss said:
I think Spurs will improve this year, with their players having a bit more experience in the EPL
and a much better manager Pochettino at the helm.
They could make this year's Title race even more interesting than last year.
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agreed. think it was the coaches held them back last years. their players are quality and now pochettino is a very promising coach.
 
Luis Suárez, Manny Ramirez, and Knowing When to Cut Bait With a Troubled Superstar
JULY 22, 2014
by MIKE L. GOODMAN, ESPN

Luis Suárez’s exit from Liverpool was astonishingly fast. Giorgio Chiellini was probably still rubbing his shoulder when Liverpool owner John W. Henry and Fenway Sports Group decided they had had enough. By July 4, a mere 10 days after Suárez completed his biting trilogy, Barcelona had reportedly agreed to meet Suárez’s buyout clause. Barca have also reportedly indemnified themselves against the possibility of Suárez executing a George Lucas–like return to his earlier work with a no biting clause in his contract. The sale of Suárez wasn’t surprising (he tried to force his exit from the club last summer). It was FSG’s speed in acting on Suárez’s post–World Cup exit that surprised many. It shouldn’t have, though. After all, this ownership group has had to do this before.

Almost exactly six years ago, Fenway Sports Group found itself in a similar situation. It had a superstar at the height of his powers, but also nearing the end of his prime. His talent and production on the field was unquestionable, but so was the burden of his personality off it. The Boston Red Sox accomplished historic things with Manny Ramirez, winning World Series in 2004 and 2007, breaking an 86-year title drought. Boston dealt Ramirez just before baseball’s trade deadline on July 31, 2008. Less than a year after bringing a second championship to Boston, its best hitter was gone.

Manny being Manny and Luis being Hannibal are not the same thing. They each carry enough baggage to make unpacking their actions and personas an effort worthy of a freshman seminar in moral relativism. Suárez was suspended for racially abusing a player! Manny shoved an old dude! Suárez bit somebody! Manny allegedly couldn’t remember which knee he said he hurt! Suárez bit somebody again!

You could, and both Liverpool and Red Sox nations have, argue endlessly about who is “worse.” But it’s not about comparing how big the bags they carried were, it’s about comparing how quickly those bags got shipped out of town.

In addition to their mix of issues and talent, Suárez and Ramirez were both polarizing figures for their own fan bases. After Ramirez was traded, Bill Simmons spent many, many, many thousands of words considering how and why Red Sox fans fell out of love with Ramirez. Liverpool supporters went through the same process with Suárez.

Both players were subject to the typical media moralizing. Ramirez was pilloried for his failure to run out ground balls and his occasional defensive vacations, while with Suárez it was the diving and theatrics rather than playing through contact. Both players did more than enough to warrant criticism, which isn’t the same as saying the criticism they got was always deserved.

Perhaps most importantly, at least from FSG’s perspective, is that both players were fast approaching the end of their resale value. Ramirez, while he was still putting up huge numbers, was 36 at the time of his trade in a sport that had come to (wrongly) expect a longer and flatter aging curve. He (and super-agent Scott Boras) didn’t want the Red Sox to exercise the remaining team options on his contract. They were looking for one more long-term extension, while Ramirez was still in his prime.

The Red Sox were left with the option of either extending him well past that prime, or refusing to and having an unhappy star capable of making everyone feel that unhappiness.

Suárez, at 27, is similarly nearing the end of his prime. He’s also coming off, by far, the best season of his career, and was only one year from asking, exactly like Ramirez did, for his team to tear up his contract. Despite Bite III, Suárez would never be worth more than he was this summer.

Value is a funny thing that way. The Red Sox certainly didn’t get equal value for Ramirez when they traded him. They got Jason Bay, who, it’s kind of hard to remember, was actually a very good player before he got Mets stink all over him, but is still no Manny Ramirez. But if the other option was simply letting Ramirez walk, or having him openly revolt against the team, then Bay doesn’t seem that bad.

It’s hard to see how Liverpool will replace Suárez (the current plan seems to be buying the entirety of Southampton’s first team), and it’s very possible they’ll take a step back next year as a result. But, if the alternative is waiting out a four-month ban just to hold on to a player whose value is decreasing, without confidence in his ability to stay on the field, well then it’s a no-brainer.

Fans see Manny Ramirez and Luis Suárez. Ownership sees talented and volatile assets whose value will only decline. Best-case scenario, they get to pay them for past performance as they age out of their prime. Worst-case scenario, they are stuck with a player who they have to unload, only for drastically less than they could get for them now.

On top of that, the teams had the rare moment when popular opinion isn’t opposed to moving the star along. One of the biggest obstacles to trading a superstar leaving their prime is public perception. So, the fact that Red Sox fans were ready to let Ramirez walk, and Liverpool fans were contemplating the next four months without Suárez anyway, certainly helped pave the way. It would be an utterly unique set of circumstances if it hadn’t happened twice in six years.

The question for Liverpool now is, will it work? Will they be better off without their star? Well, the Red Sox certainly didn’t get better, losing in the playoffs twice in a row after trading Ramirez, and then missing the playoffs altogether for three years before returning to the top with a World Series win in 2013. On the other hand, it’s not like Ramirez would have helped them. Less than a year after he was traded, Ramirez failed a drug test, was suspended for 50 games, and was never close to the same player again.

There’s no way to know if Suárez will be able to put his history of suspensions behind him. Given past experience, though, both FSG’s and Suárez’s, you can’t fault Liverpool for betting he won’t.
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http://grantland.com/the-triangle/luis-suarez-liverpool-manny-ramirez-boston-red-sox/

Time was right to sell Suarez, admits Liverpool owner John W Henry

The Anfield chief says this summer was the right moment for both player and club "to make a break" but insists Brendan Rodgers' attack will remain "explosive" without the striker

Liverpool owner John W Henry believes this summer was the right time to sell Luis Suarez to Barcelona.

The 27-year-old, whose 31 goals helped Liverpool finish second in the Premier League last season, joined the Spanish club in a £70 million deal earlier this month.

Suarez is currently serving a four-month ban for biting Italy defender Giorgio Chiellini during Uruguay’s World Cup fixture on June 19.

But despite Suarez’s departure, Henry believes that Liverpool’s attack will remain “explosive” next term.

“It was time for Luis and time for the club to make a break,” Henry told NBC.

“He brought so much to the club but we brought a lot to Luis.

“[Without him] I think you will still see a very explosive Liverpool offense.”
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Regarding this big name signing discussion, shouldn't we be changing our expectations. At the moment it's to add a couple of WC players to try to be champions, or challenge strongly for it.

Yet last season everyone would have been happy with 4th with the other supporters explaining the teams succes down to a lack of games (which was also part of the success).

The clubs aim was always to get CL football and so far Liverpool have consolidated that 4th place position by building a squad that should hopefully be capable of maintaining the intensity of play seen last season.

Obviously Suarez will be a loss, however I seem to remember everyone calling him a flattrack bully anyway, so it remains to be seen how big it will be against the dross of the league with the extra options now at the club and the extra energy levels that will bring later in games.

To me the club seems to be doing the correct development, signing mostly proven players in the league that add quality and options to the squad and are competative enough to be important to the first team. Time will tell. As Beach said, it is only the monopoly teams and Utd (mostly because of last season) that aim for the big signings.
 
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