FIFA 10

Dusse said:
Yeah, our skills. Not the fucking players stats.
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If thats so, why is the player's preferred foot an issue?

The quality of the player being controlled has to have an effect, if not you might as well have Torres as your RB and let your skill handle the rest.

The player stats add an element of strategy, so you player to the strengths of the team you control.

So the choice of team your pick is a crucial decision, how you set up formation, who plays were. All that is part of the game and knowledge of that is a skill.
 
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Gab_ said:
What you want it a player like Evra being as good on top as Eto'o...

Tall and fast players will be all you need in your perfect FIFA 10, because all the other stats doesn't matter at all. What a shit game that would be.

On the subject of individuality, I think they need to assign roles for players too. The obvious one being Playmaker, like a pirlo or xavi, where the team (cpu) wants the ball to often go through them when starting attacks. But then there has to be a big difference in quality of the passes for example for it to matter. And not like Dusse wants, that every player is a generic clone.
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FFS, stop telling me what I want.:R1 If you put Evra on top in real life, he wouldn't become slower or worse at shooting. What should happen in a situation lika that is that his positioning should be horrible, he should not time his runs very well etc.

The greatest difference between players IRL is NOT IF THEY CAN PASS THE FUCKING BALL ACCURATE, but HOW EARLY THEY SEE THAT FUCKING PASS. Which could be simulated by better/earlier player runs if Xavi on the ball than Real-Diarra. Other things that could simulate how good passers they are: how quick the power bar is loaded, if the ball bounces a lot or not. Also the mayor thing Barca etc does that makes the a great passing team is that the players get the ball under control very quickly so that they have more time on the ball. They also position their bodies better so that they can do one-touch passes, as well as their movement off the ball is fantastic (which, again, can be simulated by the AI OFF THE BALL).

It is not that the Barca players are that much better at passing the ball, but what they do is make sure that they always move the ball quickly to have more time at the ball. Not that their passes are more accurate. Pretty much all proffesional players can make accurate passes if they have the time, but only skilles players like Xavi etc makes sure that they always have time.

This goes for pretty much everything. Dribbling? Skilled players keep the ball close to their feets so that they can change direction quicker.

But please, stop fucking telling me what I want, it only makes you look stupid(/or possibly drunk).:WASTED:
(Or I could tell you that the way you want it, the next things they should do is implent "auto moves", so that Ruud vN shoots every time he is in the box, even if you havent told him to! Woohoo, realism! YEAH BABY!)
 
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Gab, if they did remove the Any option, then the CPU ai would have to be 1000% better than it currently is.
 
Sure any player can hit the ball left or right but do they all have the finesse or technique deliver it right to the target player feet?

No, not all players do if not Fabregas, Xavi wouldn't be paid so much.

I watched Denilson player last season and that boy can't hit an accurate pass over 7 yards. without it being intercepted or the target player having to re adjust.

The difference between Denilson and Fabregas isn't just vision but technique. Fabregas' technique makes his passes alot more accurate.

It's all about how the ball is struck, which determines if it curls or not etc.

Fabregas knowing he has the required skill/technique has a lot more confidence to deliver an early pass without having to think about it like Denilson would.

Like I said before foot to ball contact is what determine a good pass.
 
Foot to ball contact is a prerequisite of a good pass - it doesn't determine it. Blaccat im afraid Dusse is more correct IMO - good passers dont need a 100% perfect technique - it's about what they see unfolding in their brain and how to position their body to enable that vision to happen.

Denilson is a good passer im sure - the difference between him and Fabregas is that Cesc is far quicker in thought - the execution comes naturally to them all, make no mistake about that. That's why Denilson can play like Fabregas at lower levels where the game isn't as fast paced - its about speed of thought, instinct for the game and ball sport flair (understanding how the ball will react to angles intuitively, how to make the most of those angles etc. This cannot be taught.).

How they would translate the above into the game I've no idea - I think a simple but effective solution would be to set a responsive "stat" for each player (i.e. Messi has 100 if he is the benchmark...Denilson has maybe 70) that translates through the button presses and makes it easier/harder to execute things due to timing differences - rather than the technical ability of the player. While some players are definitely technical standouts, I have no doubt that given time and space, Denilson can make any pass that Cesc can. My solution would effectively translate that I think.
 
I play with full manual controls. And I feel, which to my surprise seems to be the exact opposite of most of the people, stats should play a bigger part in full manual controls.
The balance should be 65/35 in, for example, a pass: the outcome of the pass should be determined in part by how well you timed / powered / aimed your pass, and the other part by the skill of the player in that given situation.
This would be easily implemented, at least in theory. The stats would affect not only the passing, but also the receiving player.
Let's use Pirlo and Gattuso as an example, in the same exact situation. Running into the opposite midfield, slowly. The exact same press of the button (in terms of power, etc) would give two different outcomes.
Sure, the pass would be sucessfull, but not the same: Gattuso's pass would probably bounce more. Be a little shorter or longer. The receiver of the pass would have to back track or run a little faster to catch it.
The more difficult the situation in which you would try to pass the more sucesfull you would be with a top player (considering yuo would give the right amount of power and the correct direction).
Ultimately it would be your skill that determined how the pass would go, but knowing to play the to the strengths of your players would be truly importante.
Should some actions (shotting, passing) have some random outcomes at time? In real life, even the best of players misses passes, even though he had the time and was positioned to succeed. I think they should. In 20 passes, in the exact same situation, perhaps 2 or 3 won't have the same outcome.
 
andish2001 said:
Foot to ball contact is a prerequisite of a good pass - it doesn't determine it. Blaccat im afraid Dusse is more correct IMO - good passers dont need a 100% perfect technique - it's about what they see unfolding in their brain and how to position their body to enable that vision to happen.

Denilson is a good passer im sure - the difference between him and Fabregas is that Cesc is far quicker in thought - the execution comes naturally to them all, make no mistake about that. That's why Denilson can play like Fabregas at lower levels where the game isn't as fast paced - its about speed of thought, instinct for the game and ball sport flair (understanding how the ball will react to angles intuitively, how to make the most of those angles etc. This cannot be taught.).

How they would translate the above into the game I've no idea - I think a simple but effective solution would be to set a responsive "stat" for each player (i.e. Messi has 100 if he is the benchmark...Denilson has maybe 70) that translates through the button presses and makes it easier/harder to execute things due to timing differences - rather than the technical ability of the player. While some players are definitely technical standouts, I have no doubt that given time and space, Denilson can make any pass that Cesc can. My solution would effectively translate that I think.
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Great post
 
You are forgetting something very important here, most of you anyway. Sure, everybody can aim for the top corner in real life, but there isn't such thing with a controller in the hands. You might try to aim there, but aim in FIFA is only where, not the height, and just because you want to aim there doesn't mean you do that. If that would be the case I guess assisted controls is the best way of playing the game (not FIFA's though, as the stats doesn't even matter that much there) is on very strict assisted settings where the whole pitch represents the goal and all you have to do is to aim pretty much at the cornerflag (close to the post of the goal) and let the player stats do the rest (balance, accuracy, power, etc.) Is that the kind of experience I want when I play a game? No, then I'd rather watch a real game on TV. I want to make a difference to what I'm playing, feeling that I am accomplishing what is done on the pitch. That kind of realism is what should only be in manager games where you don't play the actual game, not when you are the one pushing the buttons. There are better ways to make the players feel different.
 
hmmmmm....

i've been reading these posts about the manual debate, i'm of mixed feelings.

on one hand it needs to be fully manual, i'd be pissed if i got the shot direction spot on and then it misses due to the players shooting accuracy being low. but it shouldn't always go in, it should depend on the players technique, whether he hits it sweetly or with more power. the direction of passes, shots, headers and crosses should be down to the direction pressed on the stick everytime, but depending on the players technique the pass, shot, header or cross will be of less quality (not directional though). i think this is well implemented at the moment in 09, but the variation in individuality needs to be more present. in my MM i have Digard and A.Ramsey in CM positions and i can definitly tell the difference between them in terms of passing speed, control and movement. upfront i have Delfueneso and Vela and it's clear to see that Vela is far better at shooting due to his shots being hit alot sweeter.

if they make the players more individual, but leave the manual-ness of the game alone i'll be happy.
 
andish2001 said:
Foot to ball contact is a prerequisite of a good pass - it doesn't determine it. Blaccat im afraid Dusse is more correct IMO - good passers dont need a 100% perfect technique - it's about what they see unfolding in their brain and how to position their body to enable that vision to happen.

Denilson is a good passer im sure - the difference between him and Fabregas is that Cesc is far quicker in thought - the execution comes naturally to them all, make no mistake about that. That's why Denilson can play like Fabregas at lower levels where the game isn't as fast paced - its about speed of thought, instinct for the game and ball sport flair (understanding how the ball will react to angles intuitively, how to make the most of those angles etc. This cannot be taught.).

How they would translate the above into the game I've no idea - I think a simple but effective solution would be to set a responsive "stat" for each player (i.e. Messi has 100 if he is the benchmark...Denilson has maybe 70) that translates through the button presses and makes it easier/harder to execute things due to timing differences - rather than the technical ability of the player. While some players are definitely technical standouts, I have no doubt that given time and space, Denilson can make any pass that Cesc can. My solution would effectively translate that I think.
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Wait I fail to make proper contact with the ball how would I diliver a good pass?

What makes a good passer?

BTW Denilson can't play like Cesc, that has been proven on any level.

Like I said, if you have confidence in your technique you would be able to do things naturally. Meaning good technique saves you time and makes you a faster player (not in pace).

Naturally Cesc knows how to hit a pass any which way, so all he has to figure out is who to pass it to.

Which is why he has the time to scan whats around him, because all he has to do is pull the trigger.

But Denilson always has to stop get the ball under control then make a pass.

Where as Cesc can make instinctive pass with high precision. That's down to technique.

It's all good spotting an early run, but it's no good if you lack the skill/technique to deliver to the player.

After the FA cup match against hull, RVP made this a comment about the pass he got from Arshavin to score the goal.

http://www.zshare.net/audio/62916287e5bb54f2/

That's down to technique, "passing it back properly" straight to his right foot
 
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Blaccat said:
Wait I fail to make proper contact with the ball how would I diliver a good pass?

What makes a good passer?

BTW Denilson can't play like Cesc, that has been proven on any level.
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Put him in a league with a much slower tempo and I'm certain he can.

(Altough yeah, we can't have a 100% perfect player likeness, unless we let the computer controll the player. Or well..that wouldn't even work in the near future as the AI isnt good enough)
 
Blaccat said:
Wait I fail to make proper contact with the ball how would I diliver a good pass?

What makes a good passer?

BTW Denilson can't play like Cesc, that has been proven on any level.

Like I said, if you have confidence in your technique you would be able to do things naturally. Meaning good technique saves you time and makes you a faster player (not in pace).

Naturally Cesc knows how to hit a pass any which way, so all he has to figure out is who to pass it to.

Which is why he has the time to scan whats around him, because all he has to do is pull the trigger.

But Denilson always has to stop get the ball under control then make a pass.

Where as Cesc can make instinctive pass with high precision. That's down to technique.

It's all good spotting an early run, but it's no good if you lack the skill/technique to deliver to the player.

After the FA cup match against hull, RVP made this a comment about the pass he got from Arshavin to score the goal.

http://www.zshare.net/audio/62916287e5bb54f2/

That's down to technique, "passing it back properly" straight to his right foot
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Do you understand the word prerequisite?

I never said technique was unnecessary. I said it is required on some level to make a pass at the highest levels, and also that there are number of other factors which determine the outcome/success of that pass.

Considering Wenger and the Arsenal staff recruited Denilson as a natural partner/long term replacement for Cesc, I'm sure he has the technical ability AND the football smarts i referred to in my above post to make passes just as well as Fabregas. All he lacks in my view is experience at the highest pace, and the level of intensity that follows. I'll take Wenger's opinion on a player over yours, anyday.

"Which is why he has the time to scan whats around him, because all he has to do is pull the trigger.

But Denilson always has to stop get the ball under control then make a pass.

Where as Cesc can make instinctive pass with high precision. That's down to technique."

Thanks for proving my point. Cesc can play balls first time because his thought process is quicker. He knows where to look, how long for, and how things will change on the field between the time he looks and receives the ball. Technique is necessary for him to complete the pass.

Denilson stops the ball not because he lacks the technique to play it first time, but because at the highest level, he has not developed the speed of thought to know where to pass it, how much weight to put on the pass and where to run afterwards. The kid could hit any first time ball he wanted to WHERE he wanted to - it simply might not be the right place to pass it because he hasn't thought about it enough - i.e. he doesnt 'think' about it as quickly or effectively that Cesc does.

In your own words, "Naturally Cesc knows how to hit a pass any which way, so all he has to figure out is who to pass it to". Denilson can hit a pass any which way, he too has to figure out where to pass it, but he simply can't do it as quickly. At the level of football we are talking about, outstanding technical ability is expected and required from all players - Denilson wouldn't be playing for Arsenal if he couldn't produce first time passes.

In any case, this is has gotten quite off topic.
 
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Dusse said:
FFS, stop telling me what I want.:R1 If you put Evra on top in real life, he wouldn't become slower or worse at shooting. What should happen in a situation lika that is that his positioning should be horrible, he should not time his runs very well etc.

The greatest difference between players IRL is NOT IF THEY CAN PASS THE FUCKING BALL ACCURATE, but HOW EARLY THEY SEE THAT FUCKING PASS. Which could be simulated by better/earlier player runs if Xavi on the ball than Real-Diarra. Other things that could simulate how good passers they are: how quick the power bar is loaded, if the ball bounces a lot or not. Also the mayor thing Barca etc does that makes the a great passing team is that the players get the ball under control very quickly so that they have more time on the ball. They also position their bodies better so that they can do one-touch passes, as well as their movement off the ball is fantastic (which, again, can be simulated by the AI OFF THE BALL).

It is not that the Barca players are that much better at passing the ball, but what they do is make sure that they always move the ball quickly to have more time at the ball. Not that their passes are more accurate. Pretty much all proffesional players can make accurate passes if they have the time, but only skilles players like Xavi etc makes sure that they always have time.

This goes for pretty much everything. Dribbling? Skilled players keep the ball close to their feets so that they can change direction quicker.

But please, stop fucking telling me what I want, it only makes you look stupid(/or possibly drunk).:WASTED:
(Or I could tell you that the way you want it, the next things they should do is implent "auto moves", so that Ruud vN shoots every time he is in the box, even if you havent told him to! Woohoo, realism! YEAH BABY!)
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Haha. Dude you want arcade, that's fine but I don't, chill. And you also missing my point because you say the AI should help you out by shooting with ruud, so I don't think you understand much here. :LOL:
 
Tim7 said:
All this manual debate is making me miss the nets discussions :DD.
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Agreed:P

I do actually hope they better the physics. They do seem to be improving year on year but there is still room for improvement. I like the styles though, they seem about spot on.
 
I really hope they have different styles of nets. The same old square shitters every game gets annoying. They also need different depths to the nets, Wembley is much deeper than stamford bridge for example.
 
Gab_ said:
Haha. Dude you want arcade, that's fine but I don't, chill. And you also missing my point because you say the AI should help you out by shooting with ruud, so I don't think you understand much here. :LOL:
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Are you stupid or can't you read? Don't fucking tell me what I fucking want you fucking idiot.:FISH:

I don't want arcade, but what fun would it be to play a racing game where you can't controll the car if you don't drive with the best driver. Still I'd call them simulation racing games, wouldn't you? A 100% simulation can not be done if you are actually going to controll anything at all.

Jackass.
 
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About the manual vs. fully scripted debate, it's pretty obvious we all want manual controls to determine the intention of the player and stats to have SOME influence in the outcome of the action. That is the direction to go in my opinion.

But, there's something extra that most of the people misses: you, as the gamer with a gamepad in front of the tv, see the whole pitch in a way a real player never would.

That itself makes a big impact in the "simulation" approach, because Abidal, for example doesn't have the same "Vision" that Xavi has, but playing the game, this "Vision" is the same because it's you: the gamer. Thus, Abidal can make the same kind of passes that Xavi can in the game.

Addressing this is impossible so that aspect of the game should be simulated with some scripted things. For example, to have a "field of vision" for every player. This field of vision would be determined by two factors: grades of vision (form 45º to 270º) and range of vision (meters).

Any pass you do with a player out of its "vision field" should have a low percentage of success and would go in a very unaccurate direction, even in full manualness. That means directing the ball between 15º/-15º away of the target. That would make for a lot of loose balls with bad players doing difficult passes to places they couldn't see well in reality.

Implementing this, gone would be those backward passes were a player can perfectly put the ball at the feet of someone who is 20 meters away from him out of his vision field.

For extremely talented passers, the angle of vision could be great, like 270º, though never reaching 360º of "vision", and the reach of the vision field could be a lot of meters away (or the full pitch for great long passers like Xabi Alonso or Marquez).

Adding lots of minor things like that would add a lot to the "individual players" experience and are fairly easy to implement in one single cycle of development of the game.
 
Tim7 said:
I really hope they have different styles of nets. The same old square shitters every game gets annoying. They also need different depths to the nets, Wembley is much deeper than stamford bridge for example.
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Good point Tim

Be nice to see some tight and some slack also with different styles in the lower divisions.

They should replicate them faithfully to fit say the camp nou, Roma etc so an away match feels different.
 
andish2001 said:
Do you understand the word prerequisite?

I never said technique was unnecessary. I said it is required on some level to make a pass at the highest levels, and also that there are number of other factors which determine the outcome/success of that pass.

Considering Wenger and the Arsenal staff recruited Denilson as a natural partner/long term replacement for Cesc, I'm sure he has the technical ability AND the football smarts i referred to in my above post to make passes just as well as Fabregas. All he lacks in my view is experience at the highest pace, and the level of intensity that follows. I'll take Wenger's opinion on a player over yours, anyday.

"Which is why he has the time to scan whats around him, because all he has to do is pull the trigger.

But Denilson always has to stop get the ball under control then make a pass.

Where as Cesc can make instinctive pass with high precision. That's down to technique."

Thanks for proving my point. Cesc can play balls first time because his thought process is quicker. He knows where to look, how long for, and how things will change on the field between the time he looks and receives the ball. Technique is necessary for him to complete the pass.

Denilson stops the ball not because he lacks the technique to play it first time, but because at the highest level, he has not developed the speed of thought to know where to pass it, how much weight to put on the pass and where to run afterwards. The kid could hit any first time ball he wanted to WHERE he wanted to - it simply might not be the right place to pass it because he hasn't thought about it enough - i.e. he doesnt 'think' about it as quickly or effectively that Cesc does.

In your own words, "Naturally Cesc knows how to hit a pass any which way, so all he has to figure out is who to pass it to". Denilson can hit a pass any which way, he too has to figure out where to pass it, but he simply can't do it as quickly. At the level of football we are talking about, outstanding technical ability is expected and required from all players - Denilson wouldn't be playing for Arsenal if he couldn't produce first time passes.

In any case, this is has gotten quite off topic.
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The speed of thought is down to you hold the controller, the technique is down to the quality of the player you control.

Which is my initial point, the stats are need to gauge the quality of the player.

I was replying to Dusse posts

BTW Fran Merida is Fabregas' replacement, Denilson is to old to change.
 
Blaccat said:
The speed of thought is down to you hold the controller, the technique is down to the quality of the player you control.

Which is my initial point, the stats are need to gauge the quality of the player.

I was replying to Dusse posts

BTW Fran Merida is Fabregas' replacement, Denilson is to old to change.
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....
 
Dr Force said:
Good point Tim

Be nice to see some tight and some slack also with different styles in the lower divisions.

They should replicate them faithfully to fit say the camp nou, Roma etc so an away match feels different.
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Yes, if every stadium had the nets as they do in real life, (colour, style, slackness, depth), this would add SO much feel to away matches for example. It would be incredibly good.
 
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