FIFA 10

I know but that is what makes it shit. So attributes for passing, shooting and so on won't matter. Why would you want it like that? You remove all individuality. Gattuso will pass exactly like pirlo, absolutely no difference at all. I am really surprised to hear my fellow manual players want attributes to not matter at all. You can put any player up front, like a super quick player with shit finishing, because his finishing attributes doesn't mean anything anymore. This is crap.
 
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Gab_ said:
I know but that is what makes it shit. So attributes for passing, shooting and so on won't matter. Why would you want it like that? You remove all individuality. Gattuso will pass exactly like pirlo, absolutely no difference at all. I am really surprised to hear my fellow manual players want attributes to not matter at all. You can put any player up front, like a super quick player with shit finishing, because his finishing attributes doesn't mean anything anymore. This is crap.
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That's a really good point. We want total control. But total 100% control would mean the end of individuality of players. Catch 22 really.
 
Gab_ said:
I know but that is what makes it shit. So attributes for passing, shooting and so on won't matter. Why would you want it like that? You remove all individuality. Gattuso will pass exactly like pirlo, absolutely no difference at all. I am really surprised to hear my fellow manual players want attributes to not matter at all. You can put any player up front, like a super quick player with shit finishing, because his finishing attributes doesn't mean anything anymore. This is crap.
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I think there could be a way to use both attributes and full manual controls at the same time.Like a with skillful players you'll have a tendency to screw up less your passes and shots.They'll be more precise in terms of direction and power whereas if you have an average player, it'll be more difficult and depending on the situation (if you're under pressure) the success will vary.
 
kouroux said:
I think there could be a way to use both attributes and full manual controls at the same time.Like a with skillful players you'll have a tendency to screw up less your passes and shots.They'll be more precise in terms of direction and power whereas if you have an average player, it'll be more difficult and depending on the situation (if you're under pressure) the success will vary.
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I agree, but that is kind of what we have now. I think it should be like now but even more different in attributes (accuracy). This way the ball will end up where you aim often with skillful players, but like in real life a bad passer will screw up more.
 
Tim7 said:
But then if the player attributes affect the pass, it's not manual is it?
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It would still be manual but stats should play a role.It is difficult to explain never implementing it perfectly in the game.
100 % total manual controls (as Gab implied)would ruin the game since we wouldn't be able to distinguish between the players.They would all feel the same with differences being noticed on physical atttributes (height,speed,stamina,...)
 
With the analog sticks we should have total control over our intentions (as in real life, so if I play the game alot I know exactly where to point the stick in order for an ingame player with "perfect stats" to pass the ball exactly where the stick is pointing). But as in real life noone is able to do that, and using poor ingame players should still make it really hard to execute those intentions with regards to pass/shot accuracies, especially over longer distances or when applying more power to shots and passes.
 
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I feel like we are going over old ground here, but I agree with Gab. Player attributes and 100% manual control are a contradiction in my opinion. For player stats to make a difference there has to be a level of CPU assistance from the game to allow the stats to make a difference. Pirlo is a great passer because the assists kick in to ensure his passes are sufficiently weighted and accurate so that you feel you really are that player. That's exactly what I want from the game.

If you wish to direct and weight every pass/shot exactly then surely you are negating the player stats?
 
Definitely agree with that. Manual should be 100% accurate in terms of the signal that is received indicating the direction you wish to play the ball, but that signal should then be interpreted by the match engine resulting in an outcome that abides by the laws of physics and also is within the realms of possibility for the player performing the action. So it's definitely concerning to hear this guy asking for a game where attributes mean nothing - perhaps we should organise a hit squad and go and give him a piece of our mind?
 
The player stats affect how well the ball is struck, which increases or reduces accuracy.

A player with low stats would require more time and control
 
mjsmith2k said:
Spain?

:COAT:

Add to that list:

- Stay on the line when the ball ping pongs in the area.
- Take an age to come off their line and collect easy balls.
- Don't cover their posts properly. (Try this, go into the arena and take the ball to the furthest part right of the GK area, where it meets the touchline, but leave enough space so you can see a gap to shoot at goal from a free kick. Press on the D-Pad for a free kick. Notice how the GK doesn't cover his post? He ALWAYS faces forward. All you have to do is blast it in the gap. It's the same in-game.)
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Here's an illustration of my problem with GKs not covering their posts. I wonder whether they have sorted it. :PRAY:

In normal play they cover the post. However, when it comes to a free kick they face the complete opposite direction leaving the post completely uncovered.



This is how easy it is to score from this position, and believe me I have been able to use it in a lot in matches.

http://beta.easports.com/media/play/video/7555790
 
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That first position of the goalkeeper is completely unrealistic. My goalkeeper coach would kill me if I ever stood like that..

Overall their positions on crosses are stupid, hence the easy second-post-cross-tap-in-goals.

The problem is that free kicks are unrealisticly accurate and that the goalkeepers reaction sucks. Not his position.
 
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Dusse said:
That first position of the goalkeeper is completely unrealistic. My goalkeeper coach would kill me if I ever stood like that..

Overall their positions on crosses are stupid, hence the easy second-post-cross-tap-in-goals.

The problem is that free kicks are unrealisticly accurate and that the goalkeepers reaction sucks. Not his position.
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Unless the player is this close, the keeper shouldn't be that far out

http://everything-interesting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/arshavinblackburn.jpg
 
Trance_Allstar said:
With the analog sticks we should have total control over our intentions (as in real life, so if I play the game alot I know exactly where to point the stick in order for an ingame player with "perfect stats" to pass the ball exactly where the stick is pointing). But as in real life noone is able to do that, and using poor ingame players should still make it really hard to execute those intentions with regards to pass/shot accuracies, especially over longer distances or when applying more power to shots and passes.
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Yeah. One have to look at manual controls as in real life. Everyone can AIM for the top corner, but the chance of the ball ending up there has to do with our skills. Semi and assisted not only helps you with aiming, but they also help you with the outcome (I think).

If we strip it down to super basics and say that eto'o has 90 rating in finishing, that would mean 9/10 times the ball will end up where he aims in a 1 on 1 with keeper for example. So because of his skills it kind of is 100% manual controls. But like in real life if a defender got in the same position he could probably only hit where he aims half of the time or even that. This kind of manual control must be in the game, because this simulates real life. Everyone can aim, but skills (attribs) decide how big the chance is of it actually ending up there.
 
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andish2001 said:
I dont see the point in complaining about online to be honest - you have to accept that when you open the game to people worldwide and negate any CPU/AI influence, people will ALWAYS play the game differently to what was intended or find ways to be most successful. Every game, even the most successful online ones, have problems in this area. Its why online will NEVER be a proper competitive form of gaming and why LAN always will - rules can be set and people can be told face to face how to play the game and be punished if they don't comply.

Im sure this will piss a few people off, but it's just how I feel. This is coming from someone that has played online games competitively (and seriously, for $) and enjoyed it. Even at the highest level though, there will always be someone doing something that people disapprove of. It's simply the nature of online games, forums, and everything else - people's opinions are different.
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Just as a start, make fatigue an actual part of the game. Don't allow players to hold A and just follow the ball wherever it goes without momentum factoring into them changing direction. That in and of itself would cause people to stop doing it. They claim that this has been implemented so if you get beat one way it's harder to recover. Also with the increased pitch size and the ball finally moving at the speed that it's supposed to it should be easier to slow the pace of the game down if you want to.

Implement warnings that accumulate into yellow cards if players keep holding the B and just run through a player without taking the ball. Enough sendings off in a match and people would certainly take care to pick their spots and really figure out the best time to go in for a tackle.

Make the assisted pass stop affecting your opponent's players and simply make the pass accurate and on a line. If I have a player between him and his intended target and he passes it anyway, I should get the ball.

There a ton of other things they could alter to fix the problem with cheesers but those three on their own would go a long way to stopping the bullshit.

If shielding the ball doesn't do anything (and apparently won't do anything again in this game according to that Adam guy on FSB) then the game will once again encourage just charging into a guy.

Example, I pass it to my midfield, immediately a defensive midfielder on the opposing team (this is online of course) activates and just sprints right at me. So I turn around and shield the ball. He keeps running, now either he tries to run around me and maybe tap the ball away or...like it always happens in the game, he runs right through me. That's a foul. Call it a foul. He does it like 3 more times it's a yellow. They'll get the idea.
 
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Murkurial said:
Just as a start, make fatigue an actual part of the game. Don't allow players to hold A and just follow the ball wherever it goes without momentum factoring into them changing direction. That in and of itself would cause people to stop doing it. They claim that this has been implemented so if you get beat one way it's harder to recover. Also with the increased pitch size and the ball finally moving at the speed that it's supposed to it should be easier to slow the pace of the game down if you want to.

Implement warnings that accumulate into yellow cards if players keep holding the B and just run through a player without taking the ball. Enough sendings off in a match and people would certainly take care to pick their spots and really figure out the best time to go in for a tackle.

Make the assisted pass stop affecting your opponent's players and simply make the pass accurate and on a line. If I have a player between him and his intended target and he passes it anyway, I should get the ball.

There a ton of other things they could alter to fix the problem with cheesers but those three on their own would go a long way to stopping the bullshit.

If shielding the ball doesn't do anything (and apparently won't do anything again in this game according to that Adam guy on FSB) then the game will once again encourage just charging into a guy.

Example, I pass it to my midfield, immediately a defensive midfielder on the opposing team (this is online of course) activates and just sprints right at me. So I turn around and shield the ball. He keeps running, now either he tries to run around me and maybe tap the ball away or...like it always happens in the game, he runs right through me. That's a foul. Call it a foul. He does it like 3 more times it's a yellow. They'll get the idea.
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Of course there are things that can be done to prevent the problems i speak of. Your suggestions are fine. You must see though that regardless of how many control features we implement, filters they activate on searches, or how the game mechanics work that there will be those that think finding exploits and using them is fun - and there will ALWAYS be some exploits. Putting up the barriers to stop it will only result in people finding ways around it, and will at best delay the period after the game's release before we see cheaters and exploiters online.

The most competitive online game I have ever known, CS, was close to perfect but there were always ways (tricks, etc.) to get a leg up on your opponent. They weren't used in competitive games only because there was an unspoken law of what to do and what not to do to earn respect in the community.

Also keep in mind that CS was a very basic game, with all of it's mechanics having been tried and tested in thousands of games before it - it was hardly ground breaking. For a game like FIFA, where each new iteration sees additions like a trick stick, set piece creator and 360 degree dribbling, there will invariably be bugs or the feature will be fundamentally incomplete in the game, and people will find ways to exploit it.

The only solution to enjoyable and fair online play is to play with people you know. Anonymous online play will always be about ladders, scores, and exploits.
 
andish2001 said:
Of course there are things that can be done to prevent the problems i speak of. Your suggestions are fine. You must see though that regardless of how many control features we implement, filters they activate on searches, or how the game mechanics work that there will be those that think finding exploits and using them is fun - and there will ALWAYS be some exploits. Putting up the barriers to stop it will only result in people finding ways around it, and will at best delay the period after the game's release before we see cheaters and exploiters online.

The most competitive online game I have ever known, CS, was close to perfect but there were always ways (tricks, etc.) to get a leg up on your opponent. They weren't used in competitive games only because there was an unspoken law of what to do and what not to do to earn respect in the community.

Also keep in mind that CS was a very basic game, with all of it's mechanics having been tried and tested in thousands of games before it - it was hardly ground breaking. For a game like FIFA, where each new iteration sees additions like a trick stick, set piece creator and 360 degree dribbling, there will invariably be bugs or the feature will be fundamentally incomplete in the game, and people will find ways to exploit it.

The only solution to enjoyable and fair online play is to play with people you know. Anonymous online play will always be about ladders, scores, and exploits.
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Yeah, but these things plagued both FIFA 08 and 09 as well and we've been harping on them for some time now. And I don't really agree with the "if they stamp those out people would just find another exploit" argument. Sure that might happen but down the line the more realistic and less conducive to cheesing a game is the more the glitches and exploits are whittled down to simple isolated moves like the corner glitch. As it stands the entirety of the engine promotes cheesing, both online and off. If they were to even begin to work on a few of these then the only glitches you'd have left would be the shooting from kickoff and the previously mentioned corner kick glitch where you fire it to the opposite post knowing that the keeper will never be able to deal with it.

These are fundamental flaws with the game that should be fixed regardless of the fact that they are being exploited to death online. Fatigue should be a part of any sports game and should be properly represented.

These are aspects of the game which can easily be toned down or overhauled completely not something like the aforementioned kick-off shot or corner glitch which are pure glitches, pretty much cheats.

Just tell me, how hard would it be to implement a caution system? You can hold the B button all you want but, as often happens to me, if a guy runs at you and clips your heel and your guy does the whole stumble animation, or he runs up alongside you and somehow just pushes you straight to ground without touching the ball, that should be a foul no? Why isn't it? I mean, playing that way is obviously an example of someone using the fact that the game doesn't call the foul to their advantage but it doesn't change the fact (and in fact it just highlights said fact) that this should be in the game anyway.

In Madden, bumping into a WR or tackling him before the catch is a penalty, and it's called. In NBA 2k9 you can't just reach, reach and reach to keep trying to steal the ball. You'll get called for a reach-in foul. In FIFA, barging a man off the ball is a foul, if they called it a foul more often, and eventually carded people for accumulation, I think people would stop. I'm not simply saying this because it's being exploited online (although it does piss me the fuck off) but because online or offline those calls should be in the game.
 
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Dusse said:
Yeah, our skills. Not the fucking players stats.
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Maybe if you want a non realistic game where every player is the same. Your argument only holds if it works like that in Clubs, otherwise it's shit and ruins the realism of the manual controls.
 
Gab_ said:
Maybe if you want a non realistic game where every player is the same. Your argument only holds if it works like that in Clubs, otherwise it's shit and ruins the realism of the manual controls.
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No, becuase there are tons of other stuff that can make the players feel like themself without having to let the computer play the game instead of you.
 
They haven't announced anything about Clubs for FIFA10 yet have they? I'm seriously hoping they let you use your created player in Clubs so that you're team is actually everyone who's in your team. So say for example there were 4 human players, the team would be your 4 created players and then the rest of that team as the proper players. All 85 stats so there could be no cheating or exploits by creating 99 speed players etc. The only exploit could be just making everyone 7 ft tall, but not sure how to get round that really without capping the max height to about 6 ft 3, but then some people are taller than 6 ft 3, so it's not really fair on them.
 
Dusse said:
No, becuase there are tons of other stuff that can make the players feel like themself without having to let the computer play the game instead of you.
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If you take away the affect of player stats then it's purely aesthetics. I can't see why anyone would want to play a football game where the only difference between the players is the way they look. Sounds really dull and pointless to me. You may as well just lose all the real teams and have a bunch of generic squads instead.
 
Dusse said:
No, becuase there are tons of other stuff that can make the players feel like themself without having to let the computer play the game instead of you.
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What you want it a player like Evra being as good on top as Eto'o...

Tall and fast players will be all you need in your perfect FIFA 10, because all the other stats doesn't matter at all. What a shit game that would be.

On the subject of individuality, I think they need to assign roles for players too. The obvious one being Playmaker, like a pirlo or xavi, where the team (cpu) wants the ball to often go through them when starting attacks. But then there has to be a big difference in quality of the passes for example for it to matter. And not like Dusse wants, that every player is a generic clone.

Tim: I think that would be a nice solution too for Clubs. What if they remove the "Any" option too? And maybe make the CPU a little less retarded. This would also reward bigger clubs I think, not sure about it though.

Edit: I should also point out that people that wants the pass/shot/cross to always end up where you aim - don't want the position of the player to the ball to matter too. So not only will attributes don't matter, but the kind of position you're in won't matter too. Having you back to the other player you want to pass to? Doesn't matter, because the ball should always go where you aim... People must realise how much this would damage the realism and individuality.
 
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Murkurial said:
Yeah, but these things plagued both FIFA 08 and 09 as well and we've been harping on them for some time now. And I don't really agree with the "if they stamp those out people would just find another exploit" argument. Sure that might happen but down the line the more realistic and less conducive to cheesing a game is the more the glitches and exploits are whittled down to simple isolated moves like the corner glitch. As it stands the entirety of the engine promotes cheesing, both online and off. If they were to even begin to work on a few of these then the only glitches you'd have left would be the shooting from kickoff and the previously mentioned corner kick glitch where you fire it to the opposite post knowing that the keeper will never be able to deal with it.

These are fundamental flaws with the game that should be fixed regardless of the fact that they are being exploited to death online. Fatigue should be a part of any sports game and should be properly represented.

These are aspects of the game which can easily be toned down or overhauled completely not something like the aforementioned kick-off shot or corner glitch which are pure glitches, pretty much cheats.

Just tell me, how hard would it be to implement a caution system? You can hold the B button all you want but, as often happens to me, if a guy runs at you and clips your heel and your guy does the whole stumble animation, or he runs up alongside you and somehow just pushes you straight to ground without touching the ball, that should be a foul no? Why isn't it? I mean, playing that way is obviously an example of someone using the fact that the game doesn't call the foul to their advantage but it doesn't change the fact (and in fact it just highlights said fact) that this should be in the game anyway.

In Madden, bumping into a WR or tackling him before the catch is a penalty, and it's called. In NBA 2k9 you can't just reach, reach and reach to keep trying to steal the ball. You'll get called for a reach-in foul. In FIFA, barging a man off the ball is a foul, if they called it a foul more often, and eventually carded people for accumulation, I think people would stop. I'm not simply saying this because it's being exploited online (although it does piss me the fuck off) but because online or offline those calls should be in the game.
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I agree that things can (and should) be done to lessen the amount of exploitation, and I agree that fixing the apparent glitches will improve gameplay on and offline.All im saying is - At what point last year were we complaining about some of the things we are this year? We weren't. Chances are we'll be pissed at a new exploit this time next year in 10.

What I'm saying is that even once the current, most annoying exploits are solved, new ones will always develop and become apparent over time, because there are and always will be people who look for the exploits actively.

It's the same with anything - Tim Ferriss, an american, well, fuckhead, is a perfect example. He was the american national kickboxing champion only because his method of winning involved taking advantage of a loophole in the rules (pushing opponents out of the ring). His win may have brought him fame, but his methods were never respected and I don't think he even considers himself a proper kickboxer.

This is what happens when you open kickboxing, and gaming, to the world. People who cannot win under conventional rules will find other ways of doing so - you cannot possibly argue against this. So long as FIFA is based off a real sport, where there are loopholes in the rules as well, exploitation will occur. Bugs only allow new (and obviously virtual) types of exploitation to occur and increase the regularity of its use.

Say they fix every single bug in the game as you dream of. Then you go online, go a goal down, and the player passes it between the back 4 on assisted passing for the rest of the game. Its not a bug, but its exploitation. Without a physical presence where that player is telling him to improve his game, he has no real reason to do so. The game cannot punish him for this, because it's a valid tactic according to the rules set by the developers.

All I'm saying is that anonymous online experiences can never be fair, even or exploit free. It wouldn't make sense - two unrelated people in different countries playing together where either one has a method of winning every time, and neither use it? Dream on. Neither person owes anything to each other, they cannot be punished physically, and the rewards for winning are tangible. This is why LAN gaming and gaming with friends exists.

On another note, for them to fix the things you speak of would actually require they play the game actively and as a regular user. Some of their responses to the questions seem to indicate they playtest it during development and don't touch it again. Hence their massive reliance on feedback and frequent misinterpretation of that feedback and how to resolve it.
 
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