eFootball (All Platforms)

[flokiman]

Excuse me but i beg to oppose to all this negativity.
Believe me im the person who gets disappointed really quick and easily BUT

The gameplay trailer gave me good impressions:

- Animations and movement in general look very smooth compared to 2021
- Footplanting is very accurate, and it portrays inertia very good . Watch the scene with iniesta, and neymar, and then RAshford.
Watch how naturally defenders got wrong footed and how this is portrayed. Because in real soccer passing by a defender is based on this. To make him put his weight on one foot at the wrong time and place. This is very obvious in the trailer.
- Ball has more detail in spinning and rolling, even on bouncing. Also it seemed very independed from player's body (Rashford and Neymar Scene)
- Add all this to the fact that online testers said that the game is more responsive.

I m not saying that this game is going to be a masterpiece, but i have seen some light of hope for the next iterations.

 

[martyl2]

Excuse me but i beg to oppose to all this negativity.
Believe me im the person who gets disappointed really quick and easily BUT

The gameplay trailer gave me good impressions:

- Animations and movement in general look very smooth compared to 2021
- Footplanting is very accurate, and it portrays inertia very good . Watch the scene with iniesta, and neymar, and then RAshford.
Watch how naturally defenders got wrong footed and how this is portrayed. Because in real soccer passing by a defender is based on this. To make him put his weight on one foot at the wrong time and place. This is very obvious in the trailer.
- Ball has more detail in spinning and rolling, even on bouncing. Also it seemed very independed from player's body (Rashford and Neymar Scene)
- Add all this to the fact that online testers said that the game is more responsive.

I m not saying that this game is going to be a masterpiece, but i have seen some light of hope for the next iterations.

And then there’s a linesman in the middle of the pitch, I hear ye bro

 

[etb10dmk]

This guy just demonstrates how lazy and amateurish were made those eFootbal trailers by Konami . He removed and put together just the best cuts, added some music sparks for 3 minutes in top of them, and voilà:



With some perfume added during 3 minutes (instead of 12), their crap could smell way better...

 

[nicetoknowyou]

Full IMO...

Technically speaking It is far far away from that all we think that it would be.
Plus... only F2P, not ML at launch, mobile-cross-platform...etc.

BUT, the early gameplay in the "Online Performance Test Demo" (Series X in my case) was fluid, with a nice feel with the gamepad in my hands, inertia-animations was ok, So if that gameplay is improved and polished the game will be nice. Yes, like i said, not is the PES 2023 of ours dreams.

 

[preak]

This guy just demonstrates how lazy and amateurish were made those eFootbal trailers by Konami . He removed and put together just the best cuts, added some music sparks for 3 minutes in top of them, and voilà:



With some better perfume added during 3 minutes (instead of 12), their crap could smell way better...

but that much better, its still sh*t after all

 

[etb10dmk]

but that much better, its still sh*t after all

That's true, but better marketed. In that way you'll know what really is just when you'll touch it... like a magic trick: "gameplay" is here, gameplay is "gone"...

 

[PESV]

You don't get it @PESV : i explain the logic. Effectiveness of pressing? That's not the point of that stats. I already thinked about it while writing that post.
It's the Frequency of pressing that stats is meaning. Like Agression. It's a mental attribute, not a skill, physical, technique, or intelligence attribute.

I said in the same post that if you choose always Pirlo, you will press like any other player, but from logic of realism : Pirlo won't never press like Gattuso will.
That's the whole point about the logic : if you don't control the player, and you press the button of double pressing with Pirlo choosen and he got low frequency, how would he react then? The player won't move at all and you will yell at him to move a bit?
Yes, that possible to reproduce: one player will run, the other will walk. And it will be very very frustrating.

Defensive implication is something you can't reproduce by effectiveness, two very different thing like positionning quality in attack and workrate frequency in attack, that's what i wanted to say by "i understand the logic behind it". I don't agree about it as it's still a game, so what matter is having more control. But i agree that the system of not forcing a player who isn't moving to his position, well, you won't never reproduce the likeness of that player.
Effectiveness is already represented by Ball Winning/Stamina/Physical Contact/Agression/Def Prow., depending the situation.

And i also thinked exactly, no joke, the same about Effectiveness. But then, i thinked "but it's not what the stat mean at all, i don't like it, but it's a bit more logic : stats and AI should as it's already settle by Defense/Ball Winning/Physical Contact/Stamina... Some player recuperate ball just because they are always try to be close to the action, try and retry to finally get it : they doesn't even get all that much quality, but try and retry until they get the ball.

Aswell as you may be completely disappointed by their choice, graphics or the game, it's not like everything is not logic and there's nothing to keep, or nothing logic.

So, a question, how would you represent the frequency of AI pressure with the button? Not an harsh question, it's serious.
Personally i gotted an idea, only the player(s) with more or less high Def. Implication will participate. But if the player is way too far from the action... Will make 30 metters while a close player won't move.
No sincerely i don't know exactly how. Perhaps a short term/breathing stamina stat? A bit too hard to rate, it's not even on FM.

But what i'm thinking, is that the teamate pressing + that stat are the same, so it's a paradox if you press the button when the player won't move : the only way to force him is to select him and press by yourself.
I don't say i like it, but if you want realism about pressing, that's well thinked. Now about gameplay, it's a restriction (even if it's not realistic, it's a game) so yes, me too as a player, i prefers the old system. Even if it's less logic.

Very interesting, thanks for you reply. I agree the current implementation of square is not that bad because stats do matter to a certain degree. Technique, defensive stats, stamina, etc. all have a certain impact in determining the outcome and how long you can press the button without making a foul.

I also agree that mental aspects are not taken into consideration enough, and i now better understand what you mean. Of course there is a difference between not responding at all, walking, and a noticeable slower response because the player has a low aggression or whatever traits that make him unfit for the job.

You could ask if Pirlo doesn't like to be aggressive or if he is not that good at being aggressive and therefore does not like it. A player being clearly worse in something, should be enough to prevent the user from abusing him. But often it isn't, because 1) it is not clear enough you are doing something wrong, and 2) there is no direct penalty after the fact, so the user can continue to abuse him even though Pirlo does not like that, at all.

Your suggested solution would also be mine; spamming with Pirlo should result in a faster stamina drain, or a temporary dip in form that impacts all his stats. Spamming should always be punished, but specially when a players skills, and his intertwined mentality, does not allow for it. I'd love to see the RPG elements of PES coming even more to the forefront. But in order to allow for better representation of such, or any differences really, the game should give a lot more feedback about player's stats and personality.

Like you said, adding a harsh penalty would make the gameplay inconsistent and thus unpredictable and frustrating. I guess this is why differences now are necessarily pretty subtle. For me, the most noticeable difference between players during pressing, might be the chance of a foul when you hold the button for too long. At least, that's what i think is the case because it might as well be a placebo. And therein lies exactly the problem i believe. Animation wise nothing tells me i am making a huge mistake by pressing agressively with Pirlo.

To solve the lack of feedback, each and every animation should contain information. A shot animation should be very clean and aesthetically pleasing only when your timing was perfect. In the same way the game should let me gradually show when i reach a players mental or physical limits. Its the only way to prevent frustration and confusion ("Why the hell is he not responding to my input!?!?"). When you see Pirlo putting his head down and starting to walk after showing a bit of aggressiveness without a result, you should be able to instantly notice 'this guy has had enough'. Next time, you will be more aware of his limits.

It is pretty easy to be aware and respectful of each individual player when you are talking about basic things like speed, technique, dribbling and strength. Yet, other aspects are much less represented animation-wise and as an consequence are dumbed-down as to not confuse the player. Sadly, differences that should affect gameplay are sometimes not having any noticeable impact. What if players with low technique have a much bigger chance to totally mishit a difficult pass and you see them excuse themselves to their teammates. What if other players sat down with muscle cramb when you abuse them. Maybe some players throw their arms in the air out of frustration when losing the ball to let you know their mentality / form is getting lower and lower and you might want to substitute them or use them in a better way before they have a negative impact on team spirit.

By being very explicit about the more hidden personality traits, and how they impact the game, you create a positive feedback loop where users learn to treat each player increasingly as an unique individual. If the game is able to continuously sends out feedback about your players and your teams mental state, instead of making you feel at the mercy of some black magic deep inside the gameplay code, then users would be able to anticipate to mental and physical limits much better and learn how to make the best of them. Make the logic explicit. This, in turn, allows Konami to add more and more contrast and layers of depth.

Depth and non-linearity could be added for example by a mental recovery trait that allows some players to recover more quickly from any mental or physical strain after you abused them. Thus, it might be worth pushing them to and over their limits more often. You might see them visually raise oneself after disappointment. In contrast, mentally less stable players might all too quickly fall out of form for a longer period while they stroll over the field and you have to slowly regain their confidence again, starting with some easy passes.

Developers can play around with how stats interact to other stats and even the stats of other players. Already there are these special traits that can positively impact the whole team, but i wouldn't know it if they actually do anything during the match. By making this explicit, eg show these players giving small peptalks and passionately clapping their hands in encouragement after a goal against, you can now understand why that young, talented striker is suddenly performing more stable after you added that experienced, calm player to the squad.

In conclusion, my idle hope is that the €Football model and Unreal engine will give Konami the possibilities to keep on adding more and more animations of the kind that give players detailed feedback about the more hidden personality traits and this in turn teaches users to take these fringe stats more into consideration when controlling a player or even when scouting for new players in master league.

 

[preak]

That's true, but better marketed. In that way you'll know what really is just when you'll touch it... like a magic trick: "gameplay" is here, gameplay is "gone"...

but, but sharp kick...

 

[vialli82]

Cross platform, and with Mobile they will have to compensate for it. Since Mobiles aren't nearly as powerful as a Console or PC , they need to have some things taken away and that will create an advantage for PC/Console user so they just removed it completely .

Not the problem of cross plateform as they've added stuffs on R2 analog, where there's an analog button on mobile?
No we already talked about it. It's one gameplay choice, not even related to mobile or cross or whatever.
They've added one stat which is more or less like that pressing button as we already talked about it (on very long posts and discussion regarding how to reproduce AI teamate help with Pirlo/Gattuso comparison, now i'm done with it, enough lol read if you want) also you can check how they downgraded the effectiveness just by comparing PES 2021 with any older one, i don't follow but i've already heard that esports player complained about that teamate pressing spamming too effective.
EDIT: The answer to me isn't "mobile", more an "esport/competition" thing to me. The complains of double pressing didn't came from Mobile users.
And yes X millions download, i downloaded it too, just for checking one player J-league stat in advance lol. I didn't even tried it that time.
But i always tried the 19 version. One half-time. I'm counted in the equation then? I don't know how many Pesmobile gamer there's really, i mean playing it seriously. I don't know one guy, a son of friend or young guy playing it. Not even on my "net" mates/friends, whatever. Just to say, i'm asking myself in which generation or world, or net-world i'm living lol.

Also like @fregen said, it's just basic controls showed, right analog etc. are more advanced type control... We're not sure there will be advanced control but just sayin' why they called it "basic control" then. (not talking about double press, but feint etc.)
But i'm suppose that advanced control isn't even decided yet so they didn't showed it.
Damn, how far they're looking ready to release their thing, i would have cancelled it at their place. But no like is said it's 2021 release like if their life depended on it, even 1/3 finished "game".

 

[Jamezinho]

I can't believe Messi puts his name to this garbage. It's not as if he needs the money.

 

[Hels The Ronin]

Very interesting, thanks for you reply. I agree the current implementation of square is not that bad because stats do matter to a certain degree. Technique, defensive stats, stamina, etc. all have a certain impact in determining the outcome and how long you can press the button without making a foul.

I also agree that mental aspects are not taken into consideration enough, and i now better understand what you mean. Of course there is a difference between not responding at all, walking, and a noticeable slower response because the player has a low aggression or whatever traits that make him unfit for the job.

You could ask if Pirlo doesn't like to be aggressive or if he is not that good at being aggressive and therefore does not like it. A player being clearly worse in something, should be enough to prevent the user from abusing him. But often it isn't, because 1) it is not clear enough you are doing something wrong, and 2) there is no direct penalty after the fact, so the user can continue to abuse him even though Pirlo does not like that, at all.

Your suggested solution would also be mine; spamming with Pirlo should result in a faster stamina drain, or a temporary dip in form that impacts all his stats. Spamming should always be punished, but specially when a players skills, and his intertwined mentality, does not allow for it. I'd love to see the RPG elements of PES coming even more to the forefront. But in order to allow for better representation of such, or any differences really, the game should give a lot more feedback about player's stats and personality.

Like you said, adding a harsh penalty would make the gameplay inconsistent and thus unpredictable and frustrating. I guess this is why differences now are necessarily pretty subtle. For me, the most noticeable difference between players during pressing, might be the chance of a foul when you hold the button for too long. At least, that's what i think is the case because it might as well be a placebo. And therein lies exactly the problem i believe. Animation wise nothing tells me i am making a huge mistake by pressing agressively with Pirlo.

To solve the lack of feedback, each and every animation should contain information. A shot animation should be very clean and aesthetically pleasing only when your timing was perfect. In the same way the game should let me gradually show when i reach a players mental or physical limits. Its the only way to prevent frustration and confusion ("Why the hell is he not responding to my input!?!?"). When you see Pirlo putting his head down and starting to walk after showing a bit of aggressiveness without a result, you should be able to instantly notice 'this guy has had enough'. Next time, you will be more aware of his limits.

It is pretty easy to be aware and respectful of each individual player when you are talking about basic things like speed, technique, dribbling and strength. Yet, other aspects are much less represented animation-wise and as an consequence are dumbed-down as to not confuse the player. Sadly, differences that should affect gameplay are sometimes not having any noticeable impact. What if players with low technique have a much bigger chance to totally mishit a difficult pass and you see them excuse themselves to their teammates. What if other players sat down with muscle cramb when you abuse them. Maybe some players throw their arms in the air out of frustration when losing the ball to let you know their mentality / form is getting lower and lower and you might want to substitute them or use them in a better way before they have a negative impact on team spirit.

By being very explicit about the more hidden personality traits, and how they impact the game, you create a positive feedback loop where users learn to treat each player increasingly as an unique individual. If the game is able to continuously sends out feedback about your players and your teams mental state, instead of making you feel at the mercy of some black magic deep inside the gameplay code, then users would be able to anticipate to mental and physical limits much better and learn how to make the best of them. Make the logic explicit. This, in turn, allows Konami to add more and more contrast and layers of depth.

Depth and non-linearity could be added for example by a mental recovery trait that allows some players to recover more quickly from any mental or physical strain after you abused them. Thus, it might be worth pushing them to and over their limits more often. You might see them visually raise oneself after disappointment. In contrast, mentally less stable players might all too quickly fall out of form for a longer period while they stroll over the field and you have to slowly regain their confidence again, starting with some easy passes.

Developers can play around with how stats interact to other stats and even the stats of other players. Already there are these special traits that can positively impact the whole team, but i wouldn't know it if they actually do anything during the match. By making this explicit, eg show these players giving small peptalks and passionately clapping their hands in encouragement after a goal against, you can now understand why that young, talented striker is suddenly performing more stable after you added that experienced, calm player to the squad.

In conclusion, my idle hope is that the €Football model and Unreal engine will give Konami the possibilities to keep on adding more and more animations of the kind that give players detailed feedback about the more hidden personality traits and this in turn teaches users to take these fringe stats more into consideration when controlling a player or even when scouting for new players in master league.

There's a lot of interesting things you're talking here. Some things can be done in PES 2021 when exe is modded by someone with enough knowledge plus some good dt added to the mix, like having skill attributes have more impact over the course of actions like difficult passes, difficult dribblings, etc.

However... Mental traits are completely different and in fact, due to not being able to correctly implement them on the pitch, Konami already threw some away in PES 2021, which is a pity. The key thing here is that that kind of things are quite hard to do, and on the other side, is something that only people who value simulation will actually give any value. Something that is easy less than 20% of PES target players.

On the other hand is something that even when done kinda right, after that you've got to balance it, so... More work for almost no reward, and that is something that Konami won't see it profitable, and ofc won't develop for good.

You know what's the worse thing of all this? The worse thing of all is that they tried to make a more realistic game in PES 2014, and partially for the press and partially for the community that catalogued it as the worst PES ever, it didn't progress. True, it was a complex game that didn't work in launch as good as one might want, but it was a game that tried to be the maximum exponent of a path that PES started to walk, very slowly at the beginning in PES 8 and 9, then each time with more enthusiasm in PES 2010 to 2013, that was the simulation path. It was a game that wasn't finished at launch, cause it is almost impossible to finish and complete within one year such an ambitious game in a new engine, and community was too harsh with it.

Konami learnt from that 2 things. First that community wasn't ready for a game so close to simulation, more even being so complex and in a new engine that they didn't master, and had to go a step back towards arcade, and second that it wasn't a good idea to change so drastically from one engine to another in so little time, and that's partially why we are in this situation, because this time they thought... "We could continue this IP for our hardcore fans with another yearly release that might work as bad as 2014 back in the day and get the same hate or... We could use this mobile app as base for a game as a service, go free to play to try to get some casual players back from FIFA and earn insane amounts of money". Having in count that Konami is a company, and shall I say, one that is not doing sales good enough with their main IP's (MSG is in the limbo, Silent Hill is dead, Castlevania is almost dead since LoS: 2, and PES gets hate from their hardcore fans and gets abandoned by casuals...) Is quite logical they took the second option.

And for sure there was people in Konami trying to evolve each new yearly release towards a better game and make RPG aspects of the game go deeper, as one can see with the addition of player personality in PES 2020, or the addition of roles in the team, or the addition of more and more playstyles each year. But that alone doesn't sale the game. They were more worried since Kojima's departure (and obviously with him, his team aswell) back in 2015/16 in learning an engine that they half understood, than in evolving the game, and of course, when we the community complained in 2016/17 that the AI was too easy (or maybe it was the press again), they obviously decided to script the shit out of it cause they weren't able to create a difficult but human AI with proper patterns of mistakes. And when finally could understand a bit better the engine, they decided to add in the right stick moves to make the game a bit more complex, but since the AI was so inhumanly and insanely precise defending, it served for nothing, even when they managed to perfect it in PES 2021 and make it smooth and fluid.

Where we are now? Well, we gotta face it. If we loose right stick finesse dribbling (one of the best adds to the franchise in years) best of cases is that we go back to pre PES 2020 scheme of controls, where you controlled the dribbling with the right trigger. But since that button now is the same for special maneuvers than for dash aka sprint, I guess we will have a game that automates most of the dribbling moves, taking control out from the player. And while it won't be completely our fault, it will be partially since hardcore fans of PES have given more hate to the saga since the change to Fox Engine than love, while casual online players give less headaches and more money. Sad but true.

And... Is not that we hardcore players are not right in our criticism. Sometimes we will, sometimes we won't. But it is undeniable that we are never satisfied and actually online gaming is the trend now and that along with the fact that Konami is low on money since 2015 or 16, almost leaves one option left to the company.

So what can we do now? Easy. Sit and wait. First of all, wait to have Konami make a bit of money with casual online gamers. Then wait to see them leave for FIFA cause it's actually a more polished and serious game since even casual online gamers prefer a game that doesn't play like a mobile app. Then wait to see if the game receives any patch that restores gameplay to a decent point and divides mobile game from console and pc game, with different gameplay each or, either, they release a new fully UE game with better gameplay and animations and such.

What we can do now is wait and pray.

 

[Rip-IssPesFifa]

I can't believe Messi puts his name to this garbage. It's not as if he needs the money.

Messi clearly wants as much money as possible why else goto to PSG 🤮

 

[Hels The Ronin]

Messi clearly wants as much money as possible why else goto to PSG 🤮

He wanted to stay in Barcelona half-salary but Tebas didn't allow it.

 

[vialli82]

@I've readed in diagonal your post (will read it entirely, just that i'm a bit let's say busy to do something... And i talked already too much about it)
But i retain one thing you mentioned : Konami tried, and people didn't accepted "simulation". It's a fact.
Well neither us liked that much PES 2014. The game should still "Action-Football" like Seabass named it, mix of realsim and action (not arcade).

Not too much add, not too much removal i mean in terms of new skills to learn : just keeping the right balance.
I don't know you, but dribbling normally with both stick, directing the upper body part with right stick and the lower with left... Was a bit too much.

No one plays in the Youtubers replaying, doing PES 2014 review using correctly Barycentre for example. And many people here don't from what i've read.

Just check the trailer the "Barycentre" revolutionnary (humm...) system is not at all presented on the trailer as a defensive feature at first, not about pushing the defender with your upper body only, it's one of the thing you can do with it yes.
But not the main concernc : it's much more about moving you upper body on one side, you lower body on the other and create some advanced movement, dribble, but also runs (i remember getting a + in speed by running with the stick in the running direction for winning perhaps 2 points of speed in more, but it worked!)

Why i said "humm..."? Because just see Kojima Death Stranding : it's more difficult to walk in his game with something on your back than in reality.
He got good ideas of gameplay, and Barycentre was a good idea, but it's not at all "action-football", it's a rupture, which i may said bad rupture between the arleady more or less complete PS2 versions and the things he added. We got to keep a certain "playabity" controller in hands. It should still simple and effective.
I remember Iss Pro Evolution, especially the Evolution version : in comparison to any other game, there were so much essential buttons to learn (not buttons to make a triple salto like on some game) and it was a bit hard to learn those buttons, even harder to play with it in a good way, but it was natural, well positionned, and not that complicated.
Just one anecdote: we were beaten at first from the youth brother. We were like, 5 or 6 to play on it. And one said "he must got something we don't know".
In fact, he was aware of the pressing and whe didn't probably double pressing for some, but i defended manually.
When we checked command, he was doomed. He could'n't pass anymore lol.

Spoiler

Well, if i remember some stuff like that from the past, it also because (don't say "sorry", it's been a very long time) that young guy perished in an car accident, and we talked a lot of what he did, what we remembered about it. Alcohol and more... He turned a bit bad not due to bad frequentation, i don't even think he was more than 19 y.o. ... But that's another story. Just for my conscience, i don't like to talk about someone which isn't from this world since a long time without mentioning it

 

[Sami 1999]

You know what's the worse thing of all this? The worse thing of all is that they tried to make a more realistic game in PES 2014, and partially for the press and partially for the community that catalogued it as the worst PES ever, it didn't progress. True, it was a complex game that didn't work in launch as good as one might want, but it was a game that tried to be the maximum exponent of a path that PES started to walk, very slowly at the beginning in PES 8 and 9, then each time with more enthusiasm in PES 2010 to 2013, that was the simulation path. It was a game that wasn't finished at launch, cause it is almost impossible to finish and complete within one year such an ambitious game in a new engine, and community was too harsh with it.

Konami learnt from that 2 things. First that community wasn't ready for a game so close to simulation, more even being so complex and in a new engine that they didn't master, and had to go a step back towards arcade, and second that it wasn't a good idea to change so drastically from one engine to another in so little time, and that's partially why we are in this situation, because this time they thought... "We could continue this IP for our hardcore fans with another yearly release that might work as bad as 2014 back in the day and get the same hate or... We could use this mobile app as base for a game as a service, go free to play to try to get some casual players back from FIFA and earn insane amounts of money". Having in count that Konami is a company, and shall I say, one that is not doing sales good enough with their main IP's (MSG is in the limbo, Silent Hill is dead, Castlevania is almost dead since LoS: 2, and PES gets hate from their hardcore fans and gets abandoned by casuals...) Is quite logical they took the second option.

Was pes 14 that ill received?

I thought it would blow up among pc playerbase. EA released old gen game that year, not to mention the graphics was one of the worst I had seen [and the downgrade from the demo which didn't help]. Both fifa and pes 14 ran on my potato laptop but one looked so good that it looked almost like a next gen game [and it really did compared to pc ports of pes 15-17].

Then came the gameplay. Both fifa 14 and pes 14 took the slow player locomotion approach. But on fifa 14, moving the players with left stick felt unresponsive and laggy whereas on Pes 14, using the left stick to move the player felt responsive. To feel responsive and balanced in animations and speed at the same time, the players would make small steps and finer movements which PES 18-21 didn't manage to emulate and ended up feeling like a sluggish/delayed mess.

These two major flaws was enough for me to prefer pes 14 over fifa 14 that year. I wasn't active on internet back then, so I probably wasn't aware of the reception of these games. But I personally played the shit outta pes 14 back then.

 

[vialli82]

He wanted to stay in Barcelona half-salary but Tebas didn't allow it.

The thing is : players thinks that Paris is a good town. A bit like Zidane when he signed to Madrid.
But it's not to me, overally i talk. Well Messi won't be in the same Paris everyone knows, but personnally i like some places France, South especially, but i visited and hated Paris. There's... To much polutions, and the city itself is depressing.
Well that's how i see Paris. Even the big things like Tour Eiffel and some building/house/appartement are similar to what we have here, i don't see what's special on it (well the answers is on the sentence lol)

 

[vialli82]

But I personally played the shit outta pes 14 back then.

Same here. Just because it looked real, and changed from FIFA usual patterns and lookalike. I played a lot that game, and the last patch wasn't that horrendous in fact.
Just the long shoots were a bit too hard to score for not saying impossible.

 

[Hels The Ronin]

Was pes 14 that ill received?

I thought it would blow up among pc playerbase. EA released old gen game that year, not to mention the graphics was one of the worst I had seen [and the downgrade from the demo which didn't help]. Both fifa and pes 14 ran on my potato laptop but one looked so good that it looked almost like a next gen game [and it really did compared to pc ports of pes 15-17].

Then came the gameplay. Both fifa 14 and pes 14 took the slow player locomotion approach. But on fifa 14, moving the players with left stick felt unresponsive and laggy whereas on Pes 14, using the left stick to move the player felt responsive. To feel responsive and balanced in animations and speed at the same time, the players would make small steps and finer movements which PES 18-21 didn't manage to emulate and ended up feeling like a sluggish/delayed mess.

These two major flaws was enough for me to prefer pes 14 over fifa 14 that year. I wasn't active on internet back then, so I probably wasn't aware of the reception of these games. But I personally played the shit outta pes 14 back then.

Yes, it was. Problem with PES 2014 is that went out half baked, without rain, and with a lot of problems in terms of optimization, and such. Towards the end of its life it end up being a great game but it had already a tag. Worst PES ever. While it's probably one of best PES ever made along 2021.

In fact, IMHO, the perfect PES would be a mix between PES 2014 and PES 2021. PES 2021 has a problem with short dribblings, they are hard to do even with finesse dribbling, precisely for the reason you said. Long steps and longer ball touches. So at the end, you have a problem when you want to do dribblings in a small area. PES 2014 had a wider array of animations with and without the ball and made the game felt much better than any other subsequent PES.

 

[vialli82]

Short dribbling is now a bit more influenced by Tight possession, which is a good thing, and one reason i prefer that version than the other on PS4 with no difference between dribbling "Ball keeping" style and dribbling "While running".
Try it with one player with high T.P. and another with low T.P. : you'll see the difference. Not saying it to promote PES 2021 haha but it's a great add in fact.
And long to explain (i already did it took me 4 paragraph) but Tight Possession and Dribbling system isn't at all like Precision Dribbling/Speed dribbling like it was from PES1 to PES 2013.
To resume, Dribbling is number of ball touches when you run with the ball, and T.P. is a bit the speed of touches + number of touches when you're not running but moving with the ball.
Fifa's Dribbling is all about a percentage of success when you're... Dribbling : it will have an impact of pushing the ball randomly not where you wanted to push the ball. It add variety but also randomness and "why the hell did the player loose the ball? I've made the right thing, don't get it". That not something i really like because it's frustrating.

Now i can explain exactly what the old Precision dribbling and Dribbling speed was in another post, it's far simpler in fact.
Precision Dribble > number of touchs in a small area whatever you're running or not /that's one big difference because Tight Possession doesn't apply while you're running. So it's lookalike but not the same processus/ it's related to others stats like Ball Control etc. Dribbling Speed are the speed of touchs in a certain area/so it increase also the number of touches... BUT sometimes the players running to fast for the ball so it caused some "errors" when you where running with for example a speedster and low Dribbling Precision. I don't know if i'm clear about the last part, sorry i got a bit too much fatigue to restore lol, but let's say that some player where slowed down by a wrong touch because his feets didn't followed the "push" distance with the ball. Like in real like if you gives the ball and makes running at full speed Usain Bolt.

You can see there that to keep a gameplay system less random and got a better overall control, a better feeling, at least to me the PES system is the one to choose. Now if you want TV retranscription above all, to make the game with perhaps less good feeling in what you do and controls, but better overall lookalike in motion and variety like when you're watching the real thing on TV, choose the FIFA system to handle stats, if you want to create a football game.
Because all starts with physics and stats.

 

[Sami 1999]

Same here. Just because it looked real, and changed from FIFA usual patterns and lookalike. I played a lot that game, and the last patch wasn't that horrendous in fact.
Just the long shoots were a bit too hard to score for not saying impossible.

Yeah long shots were kinda iffy on pes 14 but overall gameplay was fun.


The visuals of PES 14 look so good. Those cloth physics, those are exactly what I wanted always.

"Don't fix what ain't broken"

Why they decided to remove those cloth physics I will never understand.

Funny if you look at PES 14 [pc] and FIFA 14 next gen [ps4/xbox one], you will see that the cloth physics in those games were the best ones. All the sequels had dumbed down cloth physics. And now new generations of consoles came and they still can't match the cloth physics with those 7+ year old games.

Yes, it was. Problem with PES 2014 is that went out half baked, without rain, and with a lot of problems in terms of optimization, and such. Towards the end of its life it end up being a great game but it had already a tag. Worst PES ever. While it's probably one of best PES ever made along 2021.

In fact, IMHO, the perfect PES would be a mix between PES 2014 and PES 2021. PES 2021 has a problem with short dribblings, they are hard to do even with finesse dribbling, precisely for the reason you said. Long steps and longer ball touches. So at the end, you have a problem when you want to do dribblings in a small area. PES 2014 had a wider array of animations with and without the ball and made the game felt much better than any other subsequent PES.

Yeah exactly. It's the finer and responsive movements that make or break the games for me. If I can't make fine movements without delay from my input, then I feel like I'm not really controlling the players. PES 14 did it very nicely.

They need to either stick with PES 06/13's standard responsive locomotion or try to emulate PES 14. The thing we got in pes 18-21 was horrendus, you move your stick, the player takes forever to respond to your commands. This doesn't make the game unplayable since AI moves similarly like an ass too. But this is not fun and feels more frustrating than anything.

 

[Hels The Ronin]

@I've readed in diagonal your post (will read it entirely, just that i'm a bit let's say busy to do something... And i talked already too much about it)
But i retain one thing you mentioned : Konami tried, and people didn't accepted "simulation". It's a fact.
Well neither us liked that much PES 2014. The game should still "Action-Football" like Seabass named it, mix of realsim and action (not arcade).

Not too much add, not too much removal i mean in terms of new skills to learn : just keeping the right balance.
I don't know you, but dribbling normally with both stick, directing the upper body part with right stick and the lower with left... Was a bit too much.

No one plays in the Youtubers replaying, doing PES 2014 review using correctly Barycentre for example. And many people here don't from what i've read.

Just check the trailer the "Barycentre" revolutionnary (humm...) system is not at all presented on the trailer as a defensive feature at first, not about pushing the defender with your upper body only, it's one of the thing you can do with it yes.
But not the main concernc : it's much more about moving you upper body on one side, you lower body on the other and create some advanced movement, dribble, but also runs (i remember getting a + in speed by running with the stick in the running direction for winning perhaps 2 points of speed in more, but it worked!)

Why i said "humm..."? Because just see Kojima Death Stranding : it's more difficult to walk in his game with something on your back than in reality.
He got good ideas of gameplay, and Barycentre was a good idea, but it's not at all "action-football", it's a rupture, which i may said bad rupture between the arleady more or less complete PS2 versions and the things he added. We got to keep a certain "playabity" controller in hands. It should still simple and effective.
I remember Iss Pro Evolution, especially the Evolution version : in comparison to any other game, there were so much essential buttons to learn (not buttons to make a triple salto like on some game) and it was a bit hard to learn those buttons, even harder to play with it in a good way, but it was natural, well positionned, and not that complicated.
Just one anecdote: we were beaten at first from the youth brother. We were like, 5 or 6 to play on it. And one said "he must got something we don't know".
In fact, he was aware of the pressing and whe didn't probably double pressing for some, but i defended manually.
When we checked command, he was doomed. He could'n't pass anymore lol.

Spoiler

Well, if i remember some stuff like that from the past, it also because (don't say "sorry", it's been a very long time) that young guy perished in an car accident, and we talked a lot of what he did, what we remembered about it. Alcohol and more... He turned a bit bad not due to bad frequentation, i don't even think he was more than 19 y.o. ... But that's another story. Just for my conscience, i don't like to talk about someone which isn't from this world since a long time without mentioning it

I think problem with Bary-centre is that, iirc (played PES 2014 very little long ago during the year it went out) it was always active. However, PES 2021 has a magic button that let's you switch between using body feints or using the RS to do tricks with the ball. And that's precisely what you want to do, let people use or not your system cause maybe some adapt to it, some others don't, and also it might be a very situational system. Besides you want to have a stick have several uses.

There's s also something else IMHO about Football games and something about FIFA I used to like that is how intuitive is your control mapping. FIFA used to assign RT to sprinting, and LT to slow dribbling, alongside with LB aswell for certain dribblins in certain entries. This allowed for a enormous array of variables that could be used in a match while maintaining certain coherence and intuitiveness with other time of games, apparently not connected to football games, but more connected than what you may think. Racing games. In racing games, as in cars, the right trigger is the gas pedal and the left one is the brake. It's like that irl. So using that mapping for Sprinting/stopping the character, is gonna be much more logical than using RB, for example, like in PES. To the point I ended up mapping sprinting in PES to RT simply because is more natural for me, besides it allows me to keep a more relaxed grip on the pad. Another advantage is that if you want to allow to have different rythms of sprinting, like sprinting slower to control the ball easier when you get to catch it, you can make it with a trigger, but not with a button, and same for stopping a player, very similar, precisely, to how a car works, gassing too suddenly or braking too suddenly doesn't tend to be a good idea unless you know what you're doing, and exactly for the same reason in both cases. Inertias. Is easier to handle inertias if you can control them with a trigger (besides smooth movements in the sticks).

At the same time, you can hold both triggers to enter a different kind of dribbling state and you would have even both shoulder buttons for making different dribblings. Due to left shoulder button being the one to make smooth aerial pasess or shoots that require finesse, it could be used to alter how a player handles a ball, being a modifier to use more smooth movements on the ball, and you could use RB to use manual commands AND... trigger that marvelous Bary-centre system whenever you want, something that would feel logical since Bary-centre was quite a manual system. That way you have 4 buttons that can modify how you treat the ball or how you use your body, giving the possibility of a wider array of animations controlled all by player, and that translates in something good... More complexity in dribbling and therefore, a higher skill ceiling while maintaining certain logical and intuitive control scheme. Just to sum it up.

Right trigger: Sprinting, power shooting.
Left trigger: Stopping, doing sharp turns and stops with the ball, suddenly stopping the ball, precisssion shoots.
Left shoulder button:aerial long pass, lob, wall pass, precise handling (things like jumping with the ball over a sliding tackle, etc.).
Right shoulder: manual passing, Bary-centre system.
Right stick: moving the ball towards the different sides (the way of doing it depending on the modifier) pressing the stick to make different hat tricks.

Why they didn't make it? Cause they are LAZY. And because they were simply too busy figuring out how to make the engine work.

 

[vialli82]

Yeah we got others definition of fun, but to me it was refreshing. I remember have at the time, based on i don't remember which O.F., recopied the whole PESEDIT stats and all as they were the best in my opinion in the market.
I even founded the conversion from Ball Winning, Attack Prowess and Def Prowess and posted it on PSD at the time (even if i didn't agree with their sets, the stats talking was pretty good there)
Like for example one rule - If a player have "A" in LMF/RMF > (Defense + Balance + Balance)/3 *75 = Ball Winning
It depended on the "A" position (yes. It was a fast made and shitty conversion, but i followed it as it was the standard)

I put in bold what i've found especially. People thinked it was a + X or - X, but it was a percentage.

@Hels The Ronin i get what you mean... But i'm not that sure about your own mapping lol. It's okay for a car no doubt, but for a football game, a person isn't really comparable to a car. I don't really like it (sorry) i don't found the mapping "plug to play", it's far too complicated. Well perhaps i would get another feeling pad in hands, but too much buttons for simple moves : you're a bit doing what i was reaproching to Kojima in my previous post : transforming simple stuff like walking more complicated than IRL like Death Stranding or/and PES 2014 in a less measure. But you deserve a like just for thinkin of a that system : it's smart i can't tell the contrary mate.
Edit: probably for you it's "natural" i don't know perhaps it's because you're like car's game (i like them, but arcade style, it's annoying me to drive since 20 years so, and i like real cars too of course, but no simulation to me, on racing game i'm a Wipeout and a bit of Burnout fan, and love Mario Kart i played with a friend on Switch and like it, even like Driveclub with no problem and assistances... That says everything lol. Forza for exemple or Assetto Corsa : not interested)

 

[Hels The Ronin]

Yeah long shots were kinda iffy on pes 14 but overall gameplay was fun.


The visuals of PES 14 look so good. Those cloth physics, those are exactly what I wanted always.

"Don't fix what ain't broken"

Why they decided to remove those cloth physics I will never understand.

Funny if you look at PES 14 [pc] and FIFA 14 next gen [ps4/xbox one], you will see that the cloth physics in those games were the best ones. All the sequels had dumbed down cloth physics. And now new generations of consoles came and they still can't match the cloth physics with those 7+ year old games.





Yeah exactly. It's the finer and responsive movements that make or break the games for me. If I can't make fine movements without delay from my input, then I feel like I'm not really controlling the players. PES 14 did it very nicely.

They need to either stick with PES 06/13's standard responsive locomotion or try to emulate PES 14. The thing we got in pes 18-21 was horrendus, you move your stick, the player takes forever to respond to your commands. This doesn't make the game unplayable since AI moves similarly like an ass too. But this is not fun and feels more frustrating than anything.

They took away the clothing system cause it was quite an expensive thing in terms of resources and even In terms of development, probably. That simple. With all the optimization problems PES had back in the days, it was quite a headache.

On the other hand PES 2021 has evolved quite good over PES 2018 in terms of smoothness. IMHO, if 2021 had the control system I detail above and used certain slower and shorter steps from PES 2014 we could be speaking about the definitive game.

 

[Hels The Ronin]

Yeah we got others definition of fun, but to me it was refreshing. I remember have at the time, based on i don't remember which O.F., recopied the whole PESEDIT stats and all as they were the best in my opinion in the market.
I even founded the conversion from Ball Winning, Attack Prowess and Def Prowess and posted it on PSD at the time (even if i didn't agree with their sets, the stats talking was pretty good there)
Like for example one rule - If a player have "A" in LMF/RMF > (Defense + Balance + Balance)/3 *75 = Ball Winning
It depended on the "A" position (yes. It was a fast made and shitty conversion, but i followed it as it was the standard)

I put in bold what i've found especially. People thinked it was a + X or - X, but it was a percentage.

@Hels The Ronin i get what you mean... But i'm not that sure about your own mapping lol. It's okay for a car no doubt, but for a football game, a person isn't really comparable to a car. I don't really like it (sorry) i don't found the mapping "plug to play", it's far too complicated. Well perhaps i would get another feeling pad in hands, but too much button for simple moves : you're a bit doing what i was reaproching to Kojima in my previous post : transforming simple stuff like walking more complicated than IRL like Death Stranding or/and PES 2014 in a less measure. But you deserve a like just for thinkin of a that system : it's smart i can't tell the contrary mate.

Actually no. Walking would be achieved by moving left stick only a bit towards a direction instead of all the way in that direction. The point of what I am telling is that you would have a mapping that would allow you dozens of animations, and that would open the door to many other moves like for example, as I said, aerial dribbling (like lifting up the ball a bit towards a direction) with LB+Right stick, which would be logical and intuitive cause lb is the aerial modifier to do lob shots and passes, or do a small move of the ball towards a direction with LT+Right stick which would make sense since LT is swiftness modifier for shooting, or sending the ball far with RT+Right Stick which would make sense since RT is the modifier to run. You add freedom and variety without loosing intuitiveness, and we all win.

 

[vialli82]

That's the kind of thing which is hard to talk about because something that needs to be applied and tried before saying for sure, for let's say more than 70% of the player which is to me +- the researched percentage which you could state that those controls are "intuitive" or not.
So i would sincerely got a game with that system to try it but it's not possible, whatever the gameplay balance or other things it's not in the equation about what we're talking about, which is intuitive controls and big changes on it, if it's too much/too hard, acceptable, or even better (i could be applied to PES 2012 or 2014 or 2025, it doesn't matter)

I don't like to put a percentage like the "70%" which is a random number above 50, for that kind of thing but well... Don't know how to explain it with in another way.

Edit: but for example, on PES 2014 when i saw that you should use the right stick to dribble like it should be, i've thinked "mmhhh i don't think i'll be used to it" and that was the case : i forgot it while playing on some games.
Same for the Right Stick on PES 2020/2021 : yes it offers more possibilities. I can denies it and i could've executes some stuffs i couldn't on previous PES.
But directing the player with both sticks isn't really convenient.

Now i'm more or less used to it, but i won't be neither in terms of sensations or effectiveness as good as R2 block/slow dribbling in front of goal for sure, because i'm not at all used to manage the directions of a player with the Right stick, as simple as it be. And i'm still got issue with it after 2 year lol.
The thing if is don't even talk about football or sports, but even any character since the analog stick are relevant to games, like GOW, Souls Series, even Okami who was a PS2 game but needed to be played with the left analog stick as it was a 360 degree movement game.

It's not the same as pushing the ball like in some older Fifa with right stick (think it's still possible until FIFA 20, or they changed commands, i remember that it was too effective on feedback, but well the super acceleration is the same shit... Not sure when they changed system, just on FIFA 17 you gotted to left one button more to make the push effective. I got FIFA 20, not 21 don't want to remind my 60 euros trow in the toilets lol but i don't remember exactly the command : just that i've tried in vain the push. But it wasn't really needed for other reason lol, as the game balance were so offensive oriented...

What i wanted to say while comparing both is that on Fifa it was just a simple push, you don't let your finger on it and got to shift directions. It's like a multidirectionnal button let's say, to be bold.

 

[Sami 1999]

They took away the clothing system cause it was quite an expensive thing in terms of resources and even In terms of development, probably. That simple. With all the optimization problems PES had back in the days, it was quite a headache.

On the other hand PES 2021 has evolved quite good over PES 2018 in terms of smoothness. IMHO, if 2021 had the control system I detail above and used certain slower and shorter steps from PES 2014 we could be speaking about the definitive game.

hmm, probably.

But they just made it completely stiff now. Take a look at fifa 08 in xbox 360, even that has bouncy clothes and thats a 2005 hardware, I don't think ps4 gen hardware were incapable of doing such thing, especially when both fifa and pes barely stresses out even low spec gpus. Now if we are talking about intel hd graphics, that's another thing [but graphics option exists for a reason].


Nevertheless, we are on ps5 gen now, there is no excuse for them to make the games look like ass anymore, but both fifa 22 and pes 22 eFootball 22 looks like fecal matter. Gameplay looks like ass too, so I wonder what they did during development. Probably spent all the FUT and myclub money on weed.



You know, now that eFootball became mobile game, we might start seeing ad in game now.
Before every match starts, we will get 30 second advertisements. Now that would be a pure cancer.

 

[vialli82]

To me the rumors/leaks from insiders, i don't found it as it's from one year more or less, but the change was true : all the change(s) happened when he took control, it was after the trailer. Because the other was to open and "kind" they wanted someone more "boss" so they switched. But from what i've heard, Kimura always got his ideas, and hard to change his opinion. I really don't invent this : i think it was Renan Galvani who gets in contact and passed the message about the big "bordel" like we say in french, it happenned on Konami. I was like "yeah again another rumors to make some clicks or likes" but no : i sincerely believe it know.

I really, really hope he will learn this year that Esport and Mobile cross-gen aren't compatible at all / except if there's a Mobile prize for Mobile, means separated from Console/PC gamers > then yes. Or if you can play vs a friend who got the game only on mobile, and you active the stuff, and then you got the "mobile game" on your PS5/X/PS4/PC.

Not that he will learn only, but he will be fired the first year. And someone will took his place and it will takes times, but like Klashy said : things with PES will be back to normal, and a "PES" name comeback, in the future, will mean something good.

I just hope that they won't get bankrupted because of that choice / but a decrease in money in comparison to olders version and Kimura fired, replaced. I don't see Seabass having the shoulders for being boss, but the guy who was there on PS3 era got very good ideas : only that he wasn't responsible of the PS2.5 engine, and probably tried with PES 2014 "beta" game, and got fired for that.

Because it's like someone said, PES/ISS are like old friends. Whatever they've changed or not. Like Fifa became my friend on 2007... But i don't hope that much a restoration or back to basics, as much as i love Fifa, i really hate his father with E.A. initials. It's not that i like Konami but they were so much backstabbed by that Fifa's father, that i understand him a bit more, why he goes Pachinko, why he did think to not loose everything. Even if i want to give him some big slap in the face

 

[its999maggle]

To me the rumors/leaks from insiders, i don't found it as it's from one year more or less, but the change was true : all the change(s) happened when he took control, it was after the trailer. Because the other was to open and "kind" they wanted someone more "boss" so they switched. But from what i've heard, Kimura always got his ideas, and hard to change his opinion. I really don't invent this : i think it was Renan Galvani who gets in contact and passed the message about the big "bordel" like we say in french, it happenned on Konami. I was like "yeah again another rumors to make some clicks or likes" but no : i sincerely believe it know.

I really, really hope he will learn this year that Esport and Mobile cross-gen aren't compatible at all / except if there's a Mobile prize for Mobile, means separated from Console/PC gamers > then yes. Or if you can play vs a friend who got the game only on mobile, and you active the stuff, and then you got the "mobile game" on your PS5/X/PS4/PC.

Not that he will learn only, but he will be fired the first year. And someone will took his place and it will takes times, but like Klashy said : things with PES will be back to normal, and a "PES" name comeback, in the future, will mean something good.

I just hope that they won't get bankrupted because of that choice / but a decrease in money in comparison to olders version and Kimura fired, replaced. I don't see Seabass having the shoulders for being boss, but the guy who was there on PS3 era got very good ideas : only that he wasn't responsible of the PS2.5 engine, and probably tried with PES 2014 "beta" game, and got fired for that.

Because it's like someone said, PES/ISS are like old friends. Whatever they've changed or not. Like Fifa became my friend on 2007... But i don't hope that much a restoration or back to basics, as much as i love Fifa, i really hate his father with E.A. initials. It's not that i like Konami but they were so much backstabbed by that Fifa's father, that i understand him a bit more, why he goes Pachinko, why he did think to not loose everything. Even if i want to give him some big slap in the face

Kimura has been here for years. He didn't just start on this game.
https://patents.justia.com/inventor/seitaro-kimura

 

[vialli82]

I know, i know, even remember itw with him, but he wasn't that high in the hierarchy of the whole stuff from what i remember.
Needs to check since when... To see if the rumor was true.
If i said he took the place of the "directive executor" or i don't know how to call the last guy tooking decision in a game, that's obvious he was already in Konami's dev team.

 

[Tricky Dance Moves]

can't wait for eHockey