Bad news for italy

[lo zio]

?:shock:

"It is not only 80 silly people who have stopped Italian Football" - LOL

actually they weren't 80..... they were 39, mate :mrgreen:
they (and that's a fact) stopped football in italy last week.
but this is not the problem, of course. the problem is that those 39 silly idiots just underlined a wider situation, that involve a lot of italians supporters groups..... (i'd say that involves the whole society, as it's not just a supporters problem) ......this looks quite obvious to me..... but according to your statement, is not useless to write it.

burying your head in the sand will not make the problem go-away

have u been asleep the whole last week?. a thousands millions industry (that gives work to a lot of people) stopped last week.
The italian federation said that the stop caused a economical damage of 240 millions euros..... 240 millions euros "burned". each newspaper has an article in first page about the italian football crisis since saturday morning.....2 decrees and 3 laws have been approved in 3 days..... 39 people arrested in 4 days....... how can u say that we're burying our heads in the sand??? :shock:

The fact is that Italian Football is percieved, by Europe and people with at least half a brain - for anybody who can read between the lines....

i don't wanna underestimate your "perceptions" mate, but them (your perceptions) are our last worry, at the moment

-has been corrupt for decades

then u must have some evidences that our courts don't have.... coz we found evidences of corruption for the last 2 years :mrgreen: .
of course this doesn't change the situation... (1 year, 2 years, "decades".... in any case it's disgusting), but just a few posts ago we were talking about how useless is talking by generalizations, so i think u should inform yourself better, before expriming yourself

everyone one thinks this but no-one will say this

45 civil trials and 160 criminal trials......isn't this enough for u :mrgreen:
one of the reasons why i'm proud to live in italy is that here, if u do something wrong, sooner or later, it will come out...... and this doesn't happens everywhere.....
moreover, if "no one will say this"....... what are we talking about right now?....... what about this thread?......... finally, if no one will say it, how do u know it? do u think it's just your "perception"....... i'd say that u know this cause all the newspapers in the world are actually saying this, don't u think? :lol:

-the problems (hooligans etc.) have been actively ignored by the clubs because they only care about tickets for matches which have been decreasing over the last decade)

once again, mate: get some informations before talking. the real problem (and if u would have read this thread before posting u would already know it, as we wrote it almost a thousand times) is that our clubs can't do anything. our clubs aren't the owners of our stadia so they can't take care of the security..... that's the problem. the responsibles of this situation are our governments (this and the previous ones), are our police forces.

-Little action over player/fans fascist/extremsim banners/chants

ever heard about expression liberty???? those banners may appear disgusting (and they actually do), but i'm proud of living in a country where even those bastards fascist idiots can express their (disgusting) opinions. this means that i live in a civil country, in a country where expriming your views (no matter how stupid they are) is not a crime...... and if u can't understand this by yourself, mate, well i cant help u.

moreover, do u think that u live in an utopic community with no fascist, no nazi, no anarchists??? really do u?:lmao:
the only difference is that in england u're not allowed to bring banners at the stadium, that's all.
here in italy we can, and it's a nice thing cause i can see a lot of great, funny or hilarious banners each week.
of course even an idiot fascist has the same right. so it happens that u can see an idiot carrying a sheet with horrible fascist phrases...... but believe me mate, i don't care, as i already know that here in italy (like everywhere in the world) there are idiots, fascist or anarchists...... i don't need to see a banner to understand this. And i know that when i see a fascist banner in a stadium, this doesn't means that 50 thousand people in that stadium are fascist..... it's just a couple of idiots.... and i can say his cause the extreme right party took just a miserable 0.4% at the last elections....
... once again, if u can't understand this, then i can't help u :roll:

-The TOTAL lack of control by The ITALIAN FA - emphasised when fans allowed back in to San Siro.

still you're showing that u don't know what you're talking about......

1- is not the italian FA that decides wich stadia can stay opened to the crowd...... we are a constitutional repubblic, so this is a dept. of internal affairs duty.

2- when inter and milan understood that san siro would have been closed, they hired almost 80 speciallists who worked day and night for 2 days and 3 nights. this way they managed to do acquit all the pisanu act requirements. that's the reason why, in the end, San Siro was opened

i'd like to underline that San Siro, that wasn't ready according to the pisano act (till 7 hours before sunday match), still was (before the upgrade) a 5 stars (the highest quality) stadium, according to the uefa security parameters..... i think this says it all (about the San Siro situation, and about the severity of the pisano act requirements).

I could go on.....

u'd better not mate, according to what u wrote till now..... or at least, inform youself, and then come back with some interesting and agreable statement

lo zio, keep posting news as it happens my friend, these are important issues.

@ Ad16: i will, mate

 

[gomito#10]

lo zio is spot on.... the right to free speech is a beautiful thing, even if you disagree with it...

 

[lo zio]

lo zio is spot on.... the right to free speech is a beautiful thing, even if you disagree with it...

more than beautiful, it's the ground work of a civil society, the most elementar rule of democracy....... but still somebody doesn't understand it.... maybe they think we should just arrest all those idiots...... or brainwash them :lol: :lol: :lol:

how can we pretend to "export" democracy if we don't even know what democracy is :roll:

 

[bebo]

cheers everyone... :applause:

I watched Cagliari vs. Siena over the weekend and it was a great match . I usually would over look it ,but I had to see how a match with no fans would look like . I saw a small group of fans , but they were loud . Can the chanting come from outside the stadium?


I like watching Inter. it`s like watching NBA players playing futbol(so many tall players)or is that my imagination :mrgreen: there unstoppable

 

[lo zio]

Can the chanting come from outside the stadium?

that's the power of passion, Bebo

I like watching Inter. it`s like watching NBA players playing futbol(so many tall players)or is that my imagination

:lol: u'r right mate, it's not your immagination. according to the stats they're the world tallest team by now.
and that's the reason why they win even when they aren't in good shape (like sunday).... they simply dominate their opponents.

and the most unbelievable thing is that they're even starting to play beautiful football...... it looks unbelievable, as we're talking about inter, but still it is :shock:

 

[Bothered]

sorry was this conversation about world peace and democracy?

Or Italian Football

Just like politicians who say
-Education for all
-Lets fight the environement
-Freedom of speech
hardly something anyone can argue against as being bad!

Anyway i feel you have a lot of things to get off your chest and because of freedom of speech and democracy its your right (wow american movies are great!)

So enjoy the thread and thanks for your views. I feel enlightenened especially after hearing the word "utopic"

Il shut the door on my way out...Seems like it's your house in here.

 

[lo zio]

sorry mate, i read your post 2 times, but i really can't understand. we were talking about "italy football crisis"... what are u talking about?

sorry was this conversation about world peace and democracy?

we are talking about some thugs who last week killed a man..... of course we're talking about peace.... better we're talking about education.

sorry was this conversation about world peace and democracy?

we are talking about a way to solve this problem avoiding "feudal" solutions. protect the society by theese thugs without violating the freedoms guaranteed (even to those thugs) by our constitution.......... of course we're talking about democracy.

Anyway i feel you have a lot of things to get off your chest and because of freedom of speech and democracy its your right (wow american movies are great!)

it's really said to hear this from an englishman, mate, because freedom of speech and democracy are something more than a phrase in a movie....... and theese words weren't born in america...they were born in england...... at your home.

So enjoy the thread and thanks for your views. I feel enlightenened especially after hearing the word "utopic"

Il shut the door on my way out...Seems like it's your house in here.

sorry mate, did i hurt or offend u some way? i just suggested u to inform yourself, as a couple of things u wrote were simply uncorrect... that's all
btw do as u want.... actually i really don't care.... u didn't add anything to our conversation... so it won't be such a big loss...:roll:

 

[lo zio]

last news:

it looks like italian government measures are working (till now), as a lot of cities\clubs are now working together to upgrade their stadia.

a 17 years old guy is officially suspected for agent Raciti's murder (they say that police forces found some evidences, looking at the videosurveillance tapes).

catania stadium is disqualified till the end of the season.

according to what our clubs owners say every day on tv, it looks like their new most important priority is having their own stadia (it would be great)..... we'll see

Thanks for the information lo zio your one of the best members here always helping people

didn't notice it before :mrgreen: . thanks Jake, u're a nice guy. but in the end, that's what this forum is about...... "football discussion".

could i ask u something? are u an italian who lives in Scotland, or a Scot who supports Roma?

 

[lo zio]

another law has been approved this week.....
from now on bringing banners at the stadium will be extremely hard
this law establishes a specific procedure... people who wants to bring a banner must contact the GOS (special security police group) one week before the match. the GOS will allow to enter into the stadium only those banners which aren't "offensive" for the community (this may seem a good decision..... but who has the right to judge what is actually "offensive"?).
And finally all supporters messages (banners) must be written on fireproof material....... (wtf, never heard about banners burned!).

as u will understand all theese "obstructions" will bring a lot of people who want just to express themselves in a "goliardic" way, to give up (where the hell we have to find some fireproof materials!)

and all of this, just to disallow a couple of idionts fascists to bring their stupid banners at the stadium....
i'm wondering; who really won in the end? us or them?

here in italy a lot of newspapers are celebrating the death of banners in italy, showing us some of the greatest, funniest, most hilarious of the last 20 years..... so sad

i'll post here a couple of them, just to show u what we'll miss from now on.



match: messina reggina.
as you know those 2 cities are on the 2 opposite shores of strait of messina... so they're one in front of the other..... here it is the banner that reggina supporters shown to messinesi


VI INVIDIAMO SOLO IL PANORAMA

translation: we just envy your view :lol: :lol:

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this is the banner that an inter supporter showed after (another) bad performance of his team.


NON SO PIù COME INSULTARVI

translation; i don't know wich words i may use to insult u again :lol:

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match: sweden - italy

VI "SMONTEREMO" L'IKEA

translation: we'll "dismantle" ikea... :lol:

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match: inter - don't remember who

NO MARTINS, NO PARTY

i'd say this doesn't need any translation..:mrgreen:

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match: fiorentina - como


VOI COMASCHI, NOI COLLE FEMMINE

comaschi are como citizens. but in fiorentino, the word "comaschi" also means "to go with men", so the banner may sound like this "you go to bed with men, we go to bed with women"


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after Lyon - Roma (last week)

'A COUPET T'AVEMO SCAPPOTTATO LA PORTA, DA OGGI FATTE CHIAMà CABRIOLET

translation: coupet, last week we dismantled your net.. from now on people will call u "cabriolet" :lol: :lol: :lol: (priceless)

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finally the most famous.
match napoli - verona.... early in the 80s.
between theese two cities there's a huge rivalry. in the first leg match veronesi showed an offensive banner to napoletani. this was their (great) answer in the second match.

GIULIETTA ERA UNA ZOCCOLA!

translation: juliet was a bitch!

juliet is a character form "romeo and juliet" , the famous Shakespeare drama; as u will know, both of them (romeo and juliet )were from verona.... juliet is an icon in verona, like the Virgin of Compostela.

Now a banner like this today couldn't enter into a stadium, as it's undenyably offensive...... but goliardic has to be a little offensive. it's up to us to be smart, accept it, and have a laugh.........


.... unfortunately, this won't happen anymore

 

[Stan]

Stupid law and truly great banners...football can provoke the worst and the best in human beings...if you have other examples lo zio...please...i really love them.

 

[marukomu]

Banners should not be banned. They should ban the ban that bans banners that the banners want.

Hope I don't get banned for that.

 

[lo zio]

Banners should not be banned. They should ban the ban that bans banners that the banners want.

.....:shock:
.....:lol:

if you have other examples lo zio...please...i really love them.

here they are, then.

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can't read the message..... but is beautiful.....
ah, this is an inter banner. (the snake is inter's symbol)
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milan banner.
it says something like "interista, we'll make u "scream"

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another milan banner (during a milan inter match.... but we're not talking about this year. we're talking about one of the past few years...... when milan used to win everything, and inter..... well :roll: ... nothing)

it says "(interisti) we're making your dreams come true... for us!"
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roma banner. Roma supporters to bush... "bush, why don't u just buy Risk?" (i guess u know Risk, the game)

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"God, do not save Reggina"
"Reggina" is reggio calabria football team. but "regina" (without a "g")means "Queen"

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no need to trnaslation for this :lol:

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this banner was shown after italy's victory at the world cup. it's dedicated to our french friends.
it says "and now give back to us la Gioconda too!"
La gioconda is at the louvre. a lot of italians think that france stole us la gioconda (as Napoleon stole a lot of piece of arts from italy). Actually this isn't true, as la gioconda was regulary sold by Leonardo to King Francois 1st.... btw this banner is so funny :lol:
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napoli.
can't read the messages, but they're HUGE!
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still Napoli... it may look like a painting.... but it isn't. its a photo from a book about napoli's history.... beautiful



and this is another picture a took from the same book:

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i know, it's not a stadium banner.... but it's just too beautiful..
this banner was just outside the napoli cemetery the day that Napoli won their first scudetto (1987)...
it says "they have no idea of what they missed"
this is ART!
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and finally a couple from Palermo :mrgreen:

Palermo centenary:

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Palermo reaching Serie A after 31 years!

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Palermo - juve (last year, i think)

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palermo - catania (2 years ago)

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Palermo's eagle "executing" the snake (inter), the devil (milan) and the zebra (juve)

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i could go on for days. last year there was a show on tv; each week they used to "rate" football banners and choose the funniest one (among all italian stadia).

i still remember one of the "winners". it was a banner shown by inter supporters to lazio supporters, during an inter - lazio.
it said "god bless Nero" (Nero was the emperor who burned Rome) :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Milanista]

A few years ago when Milan played United at San Siro, the Milan fans held a giant banner with a devil saying something like "The devil inside" as both teams are represented by a devil.

Another was Milan-Inter, the Milan fans made a giant banner of a tennis court with Milan winning 6-0 against a blue and black snake.

 

[lo zio]

talkin about roma - man utd.....

TIKTIKTIKTIK WROTE:

Every country has its problems (chelsea/westham fans recently having a figth with a couple of fulham fans getting injured by being in the wrong place at the wrong time) however italy, like turkey, now have a consistent record of trouble. The frisk incident, the semi last year with inter/ac, this seasons domestic troubles, fraud last year, and over zealous policing(However when one of their own has been killed by "football fans", you cant blame them for going in strong) aswell as the power the ultra's have in the stadium, to di canio making political gestures. Im just worried that UEFA/FIFA are gonna wait till people get killed to truly do something, instead of pathetic 6000 / 42000 fines, the clubs make more money on match day selling pie's! Make that prawn sandwiches as its the manu thread im posting in

Italy atm are the problem country when it come to football trouble, they need to sort it out.

 

[lo zio]

good post tiktiktiktik, i agree with u
we have big problems, but we're also working on them.
after the pisano act application, the situation inside our stadia changed a lot.
just to make u an example; 3 weeks ago while i was entering inside palermo's stadium, i was checked in by a steward who asked me to leave my belt, coz it could represent a "weapon".
our stadia are getting safer places (actually my stadium has always been a safe place), but when an idiot wanders around the city carrying a knife, what shall we do? Should we check each citizen to see if they're carrying anything that could be dangerous?
i remember that in the"bad news for italy" thread Cloud wrote that there was no difference between disorders inside or outside the stadium. but the problem is that this just ain't true. we can "clean" our stadia.... but it's unpossible to "clean" a whole city

 

[lo zio]

TIKTIKTIKTIK WROTE:

I think a main problem in the stadium was highlighted by UEFA, italian law means its the police that are responsible for order, whereas in england its stewards. I think that has an effect aswell, some guy standing in a yellow illumous vest wont make anyone scared, but at the same time they wont really make anyone angry or violent either, whereas standing infront of riot police must be a scary situation. And with whats happend in italy, like i said earlier, its not surprising they are heavy handed.

As for outside the stadium, i dont really know what you can do about that tbh, other then loads of police and a lot of control.
But thats really about hardcore "fans", which differs from club to club and country to country.

 

[lo zio]

spot on, mate
u're absolutely right. that's why, according to the pisano act, in 1 year police will be taken out of our stadia, and more stewards will take police place inside them.
but we really have to hurry up

 

[lo zio]

RUNEDGE WROTE:

And by the way, if it WAS our fans causing all the problems, surely you'd see a lot more of that at Old Trafford. But we dont.

 

[lo zio]

that's wrong, mate.
i've been at old trafford many times and i can tell u that is very, very, very much easier to guarrantee security in that stadium than in italian stadia, for many reasons (supporters usually are seat down, ends tickets are much more expensive than in italy, surveillance system -even if talking about surveillance system some italian stadia are on the english level).

in my opinion english supporters didn't changed at all in the past 20 years. you weren't devils those days, as u are not angels today..... what really changed is your background. Now you're put in conditions that disallow u to do anything bad (modern stadia, stewards, highly repressive laws and an exemplar application of law).
so it's quite natural that your supporters act fairly when they're at their own home.
but when english fans go in france, spain, and especially italy, then they find different conditions, the same conditions that italian supporters use to find each week (and that are the 1st cause of our problems).

that's the big difference between italy\spain\france\turkey and england. in england, no matter if u're a thug or a civilized person, u HAVE to respect the law.
in other countries in europe people at the stadium think they can do anything they want, as our stadia (in italy, france, spain and turkey) are considered like a "no mans land", where the law has no value.

so in our countries security is almost up to us, the fans. if we are polite, civilized and law respectful, then we will act normally........ if we are not like this, then it happens what happened this year in catania, or in sevilla, or in paris or lyon......
and it may happens that 1, 10, 100 or, 1000 idiots ruin the reputation of a country of 64 millions people.

anyway, talking about yesterday, well, i wasn't there, but i'm honestly sure that english guys caused some troubles (as they always cause troubles when they come in italy), BUT this has nothing to do with those bastards romans who were carrying knives..... so no matter what u did, we did something worst.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

you make some good points, but they dont apply here. The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police. That is a fundamental flaw in your argument. If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized? The conditions in england also need to be noted, do not include baton weidling police who randomly beat away supporters including the elderly and females. These reports are comming from the BBC and other news agencies as well as United supporters and officials. Your basically saying without law all people will act like animals, and you have to apply the law and policing in order to keep the animals in line, if not you have situations like in italy where the animals are free to roam... I think its not so cut and dry. I think there are bigger issues here then whats on the surface.

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

No one is blameless in this situation. roma fans for charging the barrier and throwing stuff, the manc fans for retaliation and the police who were just waiting for the chance to act.

If you go to european aways in italy you have to expect that indimidating treatment, or dont bloody go. You have to just sit there and take it watch the game and then get out , you certainly dont react to it no matter how much you want to.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

no, but the police shouldnt be blamend at all! And there in the middle of it! it was few manc fans, not the entire section. human reaction dictates if someone takes a swipe at you, you swipe back. the police are there to prevent this from happening and if it does to "police" the situation. Thats not what happend, now is it? You have a good point, but again its incredibly troubling to me when the police are agitating the situation, it doesnt help italy in this crucial time. This could lead to a ban from all european competetions... you never know...

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

the police are waiting for a reaction. Those few united fans gave them a reaction. If the united fans dont react the police dont come down on them hard, and if they do they have no fallback excuse.

Its common sense in the end. That doesnt dismiss the idiocy and encitement of the italians, but until italy sorts itself out those away games there have to be treated with utmost precaution - that includes biting your lip and turning a blind eye if necessary.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

huh im not following you... at all. The police are there to prevent violence not punish. They should have arrested the offending fans, not randomly beat the shit out of away supporters. The police acted as judge, jury and executioner. This is inexcusable in a free society such as Italy. When you see police beating unarmed and unprotected citizens, there is a bigger problem then football violence.

 

[lo zio]

ok, mate let's reason toghether about this. it might be a good way to put things in the right perspective.

you say:
Quote:
The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police.
now, i can see a sort of a paradox in this phrase.
look. i buy i newspaper this morning, and i read that "the police attacked english supporters indiscrimnitley" .
at this point the first thing that comes into my head is.. WHY??? those people are supposed to protect us, they are paid for this. So why should they attack people without a reason(coz this means "indiscrimnitley")? i could understand if 1 person would attack another person without a reason....u know people sometimes do weird things.... but when u say "police" u're not talking about 1 man, u're talking about a lot of men. so what? did they just get out of their mind? all toghether? in the same time?

so, just by reading that phrase, being a reasonable man, i wouldn't believe to that newspaper.

let's go further. u say
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
then i could reply to u; Why then do policemen always attack the same persons? better, the same kind of persons?
i mean, i, and millions of people (like Himawari, according to what he wrote), never had any kind of problems with the police at the stadium. if they really attack people "indiscrimnitley" why i wasn't ever "attacked"? do u think it's just a coincidence? it isnt. the truth is that policemen DON'T ATTACK INDISCRIMNITLEY". let me tell u this; each time u hear or read from someone or somewhere the word "indiscrimnitley", then u have to realize that what u're listening or reading is just wrong. NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A REASON. So, if someone tells u that the people was attacked indiscrimnitley, it means that he doesn't want to tell u why they were attacked, or that he didn't understand why they were attacked.

i usually see football matches from the sideline tribunes, coz our ends conditions are awful and i like to stay confortable. And , even if here in palermo, we never had troubles with our guest supporters, sometimes it happens that palermo's supporters in the ends have some problems with policemen (policemen never beated our supporters, but sometimes, they almost did it, the situation just calmed down before the degeneration). some of my friends prefere to see the match from the ends. they're not ultras but they say that they can "feel" the game when they are there. 5 years ago i had a conversation with one of them about policemen in that stadium. i asked him "why do our ultras have problems with our policemen (because of course, when i see the policemen loosing their coolness, i think that the ultras must have done something, it's obvious)?
then he replied "policemen are all bastards. they have such an horrible attitude. they act like fascists. It looks like they wanna stimulate our reaction. "
then i said to him "are u idiot or something? they're policemen not SS. They're just absolving their duties, trying to keep us safe. why should they act like this! it has no sense! they are here to avoid troubles, not to create them, and, according to the fact that they have problems always with the same 60\90 persons, it must means that those 60\90 persons actualy do something. Otherwise, why each time i talked with a policemen, i never had any problem? why they are always kind and polite with me? "
it was such a weird conversation, coz my friend is a nice, educated and cultured person; he's an university student (he was), but still he talked like an ultras.

then last year i had the chance to talk to a policeman. and i finally understood. it all starts from misunderstanding and fear.
this policemen told me that the "stadium duty" is a hell. Nobody wants to do it, especially in the ends.
because making the "stadium duty" it means staying in front of hundreds of guys excited for the match and angry (with policemen). so doing that stadium duty in the tribunes it's quite easy. people are all seat down, polite, "educated".
but in the ends there isn't only polite and "educated" people. there are also thugs. he said "those guys don't tolerate the authority, they don't tolerate us. no matter what we do, they are always against us. so if there's any problem, no matter what we do, they start throwing us everything lighters, coins, chairs, sticks. if 2 guys are having some troubles and start a fight, what should we do? we have to go there and try to divide them, to calm down them. but do u know what happens when we do it? then 50 guys come against us screaming and throwing objects.
so each time something "bad" happens, we have 2 choices; we can do anything and just let the situation degenerate. or we can act, but when we act, then the situation also degenerate because we acted. that's the reason why we have to be so "authoritary". because if those thugs aren't "scared" by us, they will attack us. and it's really frightening when 50, 80, 100, guys throw each kind of objects to u, screaming that u're a bastard, that they will beat u, and things like theese."

so on one side we have policemen who are scared by the mass, and because of their fear, they try to be as much authoritary as they can.
On the other side we have some guys who don't tolerate authority, and are prejudicially agaisnt the policemen (coz they consider policemen as the biggest expression of authority).
as u can see this situation can't bring anything good.

but it's all about context, about scenario. the same policemen are always nice and kind with me and all the other people in the stadium. coz they aren't scared by us. they don't see us as dangerous persons.

in my job i come in contact with robbers, petty criminals, murderers, mafiosi.
and i learned that their reactions depend by how they're approached. Csaunders, u're an educated, cultured man; if i'm rude with u, then your reaction will be "why are u so rude with me?". generally if you're rude with a thug, he won't ask u just why, he will overreact being even more rude than u. so it's all about approach, it's all about context.
it's not about being animals, like u say. but it's about instinctive reactions. our instinctive reactions might be different, depending on how we are stimulated, approached. and the instinctive reaction of 1,3,8 people, in a particular scenario as a stadium, may degenerate into a riot involving much more people.
and an educated, cultured person can control his instinctive reactions better than a thug, of course.
that's the reason why policemen troubles are always in the ends and not in the sideline tribunes. the ends here in italy are very cheap, poor people, and thugs can be found only in the ends.

my friend, when i talked to him about the policemen at the stadium, replied to me like he was an ultras. but if i'd go with him to the theatre for an opera, and a "steward" would come to him, asking not to speak loud, he wouldn't be rude. He would just smile and do what the steward told him. this because he don't see the steward as an expression of authority. it's just a gentle steward who is asking him to be quiet. so he won't be angry with the steward.... he will be embarassed for the troubles he caused by talking loud.
when the context changes, the reaction changes too.


Our policemen aren't hostile. they're unprepared to face the mass (when the mass is composed by thugs, or by drunk people like english guys yesterday). coz of this unpreparation, they are scared, coz of their fear, sometimes they overreact.
our ultras are not (all) devils (exactly as those english guys yesterday). they just see our policemen (with their stick and all the equipment) as enemies (while they aren't).

so, to reply to your question:
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
.. i can answer by saying that is not the police the ones causing the violence. violence comes from the misunderstanding between (some) people and the police. the problem is not the police neither the thugs or drunk people. the real problem is their relationship. the relationship between policemen and those guys. our policemen are good people. they just can't handle our ends. that's why we should put in our stadia just stewards.

in a cinema, ina a theatre, in english stadia, the context is different. the fans don't consider the stewards as "enemies", and the stewards aren't scared by the fans..... coz the are prepared.

that's why in a cinema, in a theatre, in an english stadium there are no disorders.

it's all about context, preparation, good approach, mate.
without theese conditions, there are misunderstandings. misunderstandings bring to fear. fear bring to disorders.

action - reaction. as i said before, nothing happens without a reason (and nobody beats people "indiscrimnitley").

this is about the police.
but when we talk about people walking with a knife, we're talking about criminals, maybe petty criminals, but still criminals.

@ Csaunders: mate, our conversations are becoming really an hard test for my english! It was a hell of a work to put all theese stuff in english, so sorry if i'm not so clear sometimes

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

my friend but the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence. This is the flaw I see in your argument. The police reaction should never be violent, no matter what the action upon them was. This is what keeps a society civil. Once the police cross that line, its not longer police "policing" its now vigilantism. Its the police taking the law into there own hands. They should use reasonable force, i dont know how bashing a female who is unarmed is deemed reasonable. BUT as you state the police are not prepared to deal with violence, and this I alluded to earlier when I said its bigger then some random thugs acting out at a football match. There are huge problems in Italian football, and unprepared policeman is one of them. You and I are basically agreeing on the same thing I think. The way fans attend football matches in Italy MUST be changed. This kind of behaviour needs to end on all ends. We need peace in football.

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

sorry saunders but what do you want them to do? give the fans a stern telling off? Thye are at a match for goodness sake with thousands of people. While i dont condone it they will use force as a measure of control. As lo zio says theres a minority of police compared to the fans, so they need the batons to keep order.

What i was saying is that they will USE force if they see opposing fans (in this case man utd as the smaller minority and as such more controllable) react to the roma fans. Its not vigilante in the least

 

[lo zio]

Quote:
the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence.
of course mate, that's a right statement. And i'm sure that each policeman would agree with u...... when is seat down, calm, behind a monitor.
but when u face 100 guys screaming to u that u're a bastard, that they will kill u, and bullshit like theese, the situation is different.

there are a lot of antropologic studies about "the mass" and how people reactions change, when they feel they are part of a mass. Now i know, it might sounds crazy, but when we feel we're a part of a mass our "animal instincts" overwhelm us. our instintive reactions overwhelm our reasoning ability.
Police discovered that the murderer of Agent Raciti in catania was a 17 years old guy, son of a doctor and an engineer. he was supposed to be an educated guy, a cultured guy, a nice guy, and he probably is. but that evening he literally lost his mind. he lost his inibitions cause he felt he was a part of "something bigger", and he did something that, in "normal conditions" he wouldn't have done. that evening an innocent, educated guy turned into a killer. this means that in an "adeguate situation" we can loose control.
of course, as i said before educated and cultured persons are more able to control their instinctive reactions... and probaly that guy wasn't able to control himself coz, even if he is educated, he is very young.
now each police force, everywhere in the world knows this. thay know that in certain situation, even a nice guy can turn into a threat for their safeness (R.I.P. agent Raciti). So they go through a special preparation to face situation like, big concerts or politic manifestations).
but this perparation isn't enough to control a stadium. talking about security a stadium is an hell. really worst that an avenue or a "place for concerts". nothing can prepare u to this experience (as italians policemen know and as english policemen knew in the 80s).

when u're facing this kind of threat, u just can't "measure your force". morover there's no use to intimate, as anybody will even hear u. our policemen just loose their coolness, exactly as those guy do. opposite situation-same reactions. i know it sounds insane but i'm quite sure that even u and me, if we were in that situtation (10 of us in front of 100 of them, as Antred wrote) we would have a similar reaction. when u fear for your life u can't be cool, u can't reason, u can't measure your reactions (of course i'm not saying that is normal to die in italian stadia..... "just" 2 persons died in our stadia in the last 20 years.... but our policemen always have that feeling of danger, of course, no matter how many people died in the last 20, 30 or 40 years).

it's quite similar to the situations of militaries when they're in action abroad. quite often we hear about disgusting things done by our guys (in iraq, afghanistan, ex-jugoslavia territories, albania). do u think that those guys are really so cruel, so mean, so "animals". they aren't. Sometimes adrenaline might bring u to do unbelievable things, things that u wouldn't ever do when you're "cool". we have a lot of usa military bases here in italy. When Usa soldiers come here from iraq, they have to follow a "special rehabilitiation program" that helps them in gettin back to the civil society. i was astonished the first time i heard about it, but if u think to it, it's quite natural. the only undenyable truth is that we are all animals, no matter how educated, cultured or civilized we are. that's a matter of fact. and u can realize it when u see that illogical anger in some thugs eyes in the stadia...... u can realize it when u see the fear in our policemen eyes.

as u say this situation must end now. and we can do it, now we understood how to do it. by building new stadia, and by keeping our police forces out of our stadia. it's quite easy, but it will require at least a couple of years , imo
by now, juve is buildin his brand new stadium (it will be ready for next year) udinese, palermo, napoli, and reggina are building their new stadia. messina and torino already have their new stadia (they built them last year). other clubs are approving projects for their new stadia.

all theese new stadia will be owned by the clubs, they won't be owned by our cities; and this will allow our cities-boards to keep their police forces away (cause the clubs will provide about stadia security, like in england).
as i said before we're on our way

 

[ClassicManiac]

somebody should really teach you how to quote properly.

 

[lo zio]

sorry mate, did i make something wrong? if i did tell me, so i won't do it anymore