ok, mate let's reason toghether about this. it might be a good way to put things in the right perspective.
you say:
Quote:
The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police.
now, i can see a sort of a paradox in this phrase.
look. i buy i newspaper this morning, and i read that "the police attacked english supporters indiscrimnitley" .
at this point the first thing that comes into my head is.. WHY??? those people are supposed to protect us, they are paid for this. So why should they attack people without a reason(coz this means "indiscrimnitley")? i could understand if 1 person would attack another person without a reason....u know people sometimes do weird things.... but when u say "police" u're not talking about 1 man, u're talking about a lot of men. so what? did they just get out of their mind? all toghether? in the same time?
so, just by reading that phrase, being a reasonable man, i wouldn't believe to that newspaper.
let's go further. u say
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
then i could reply to u; Why then do policemen always attack the same persons? better, the same kind of persons?
i mean, i, and millions of people (like Himawari, according to what he wrote), never had any kind of problems with the police at the stadium. if they really attack people "indiscrimnitley" why i wasn't ever "attacked"? do u think it's just a coincidence? it isnt. the truth is that policemen DON'T ATTACK INDISCRIMNITLEY". let me tell u this; each time u hear or read from someone or somewhere the word "indiscrimnitley", then u have to realize that what u're listening or reading is just wrong. NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A REASON. So, if someone tells u that the people was attacked indiscrimnitley, it means that he doesn't want to tell u why they were attacked, or that he didn't understand why they were attacked.
i usually see football matches from the sideline tribunes, coz our ends conditions are awful and i like to stay confortable. And , even if here in palermo, we never had troubles with our guest supporters, sometimes it happens that palermo's supporters in the ends have some problems with policemen (policemen never beated our supporters, but sometimes, they almost did it, the situation just calmed down before the degeneration). some of my friends prefere to see the match from the ends. they're not ultras but they say that they can "feel" the game when they are there. 5 years ago i had a conversation with one of them about policemen in that stadium. i asked him "why do our ultras have problems with our policemen (because of course, when i see the policemen loosing their coolness, i think that the ultras must have done something, it's obvious)?
then he replied "policemen are all bastards. they have such an horrible attitude. they act like fascists. It looks like they wanna stimulate our reaction. "
then i said to him "are u idiot or something? they're policemen not SS. They're just absolving their duties, trying to keep us safe. why should they act like this! it has no sense! they are here to avoid troubles, not to create them, and, according to the fact that they have problems always with the same 60\90 persons, it must means that those 60\90 persons actualy do something. Otherwise, why each time i talked with a policemen, i never had any problem? why they are always kind and polite with me? "
it was such a weird conversation, coz my friend is a nice, educated and cultured person; he's an university student (he was), but still he talked like an ultras.
then last year i had the chance to talk to a policeman. and i finally understood. it all starts from misunderstanding and fear.
this policemen told me that the "stadium duty" is a hell. Nobody wants to do it, especially in the ends.
because making the "stadium duty" it means staying in front of hundreds of guys excited for the match and angry (with policemen). so doing that stadium duty in the tribunes it's quite easy. people are all seat down, polite, "educated".
but in the ends there isn't only polite and "educated" people. there are also thugs. he said "those guys don't tolerate the authority, they don't tolerate us. no matter what we do, they are always against us. so if there's any problem, no matter what we do, they start throwing us everything lighters, coins, chairs, sticks. if 2 guys are having some troubles and start a fight, what should we do? we have to go there and try to divide them, to calm down them. but do u know what happens when we do it? then 50 guys come against us screaming and throwing objects.
so each time something "bad" happens, we have 2 choices; we can do anything and just let the situation degenerate. or we can act, but when we act, then the situation also degenerate because we acted. that's the reason why we have to be so "authoritary". because if those thugs aren't "scared" by us, they will attack us. and it's really frightening when 50, 80, 100, guys throw each kind of objects to u, screaming that u're a bastard, that they will beat u, and things like theese."
so on one side we have policemen who are scared by the mass, and because of their fear, they try to be as much authoritary as they can.
On the other side we have some guys who don't tolerate authority, and are prejudicially agaisnt the policemen (coz they consider policemen as the biggest expression of authority).
as u can see this situation can't bring anything good.
but it's all about context, about scenario. the same policemen are always nice and kind with me and all the other people in the stadium. coz they aren't scared by us. they don't see us as dangerous persons.
in my job i come in contact with robbers, petty criminals, murderers, mafiosi.
and i learned that their reactions depend by how they're approached. Csaunders, u're an educated, cultured man; if i'm rude with u, then your reaction will be "why are u so rude with me?". generally if you're rude with a thug, he won't ask u just why, he will overreact being even more rude than u. so it's all about approach, it's all about context.
it's not about being animals, like u say. but it's about instinctive reactions. our instinctive reactions might be different, depending on how we are stimulated, approached. and the instinctive reaction of 1,3,8 people, in a particular scenario as a stadium, may degenerate into a riot involving much more people.
and an educated, cultured person can control his instinctive reactions better than a thug, of course.
that's the reason why policemen troubles are always in the ends and not in the sideline tribunes. the ends here in italy are very cheap, poor people, and thugs can be found only in the ends.
my friend, when i talked to him about the policemen at the stadium, replied to me like he was an ultras. but if i'd go with him to the theatre for an opera, and a "steward" would come to him, asking not to speak loud, he wouldn't be rude. He would just smile and do what the steward told him. this because he don't see the steward as an expression of authority. it's just a gentle steward who is asking him to be quiet. so he won't be angry with the steward.... he will be embarassed for the troubles he caused by talking loud.
when the context changes, the reaction changes too.
Our policemen aren't hostile. they're unprepared to face the mass (when the mass is composed by thugs, or by drunk people like english guys yesterday). coz of this unpreparation, they are scared, coz of their fear, sometimes they overreact.
our ultras are not (all) devils (exactly as those english guys yesterday). they just see our policemen (with their stick and all the equipment) as enemies (while they aren't).
so, to reply to your question:
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
.. i can answer by saying that is not the police the ones causing the violence. violence comes from the misunderstanding between (some) people and the police. the problem is not the police neither the thugs or drunk people. the real problem is their relationship. the relationship between policemen and those guys. our policemen are good people. they just can't handle our ends. that's why we should put in our stadia just stewards.
in a cinema, ina a theatre, in english stadia, the context is different. the fans don't consider the stewards as "enemies", and the stewards aren't scared by the fans..... coz the are prepared.
that's why in a cinema, in a theatre, in an english stadium there are no disorders.
it's all about context, preparation, good approach, mate.
without theese conditions, there are misunderstandings. misunderstandings bring to fear. fear bring to disorders.
action - reaction. as i said before, nothing happens without a reason (and nobody beats people "indiscrimnitley").
this is about the police.
but when we talk about people walking with a knife, we're talking about criminals, maybe petty criminals, but still criminals.
@ Csaunders: mate, our conversations are becoming really an hard test for my english! It was a hell of a work to put all theese stuff in english, so sorry if i'm not so clear sometimes
