Bad news for italy

[lo zio]

spot on, mate
u're absolutely right. that's why, according to the pisano act, in 1 year police will be taken out of our stadia, and more stewards will take police place inside them.
but we really have to hurry up

 

[lo zio]

RUNEDGE WROTE:

And by the way, if it WAS our fans causing all the problems, surely you'd see a lot more of that at Old Trafford. But we dont.

 

[lo zio]

that's wrong, mate.
i've been at old trafford many times and i can tell u that is very, very, very much easier to guarrantee security in that stadium than in italian stadia, for many reasons (supporters usually are seat down, ends tickets are much more expensive than in italy, surveillance system -even if talking about surveillance system some italian stadia are on the english level).

in my opinion english supporters didn't changed at all in the past 20 years. you weren't devils those days, as u are not angels today..... what really changed is your background. Now you're put in conditions that disallow u to do anything bad (modern stadia, stewards, highly repressive laws and an exemplar application of law).
so it's quite natural that your supporters act fairly when they're at their own home.
but when english fans go in france, spain, and especially italy, then they find different conditions, the same conditions that italian supporters use to find each week (and that are the 1st cause of our problems).

that's the big difference between italy\spain\france\turkey and england. in england, no matter if u're a thug or a civilized person, u HAVE to respect the law.
in other countries in europe people at the stadium think they can do anything they want, as our stadia (in italy, france, spain and turkey) are considered like a "no mans land", where the law has no value.

so in our countries security is almost up to us, the fans. if we are polite, civilized and law respectful, then we will act normally........ if we are not like this, then it happens what happened this year in catania, or in sevilla, or in paris or lyon......
and it may happens that 1, 10, 100 or, 1000 idiots ruin the reputation of a country of 64 millions people.

anyway, talking about yesterday, well, i wasn't there, but i'm honestly sure that english guys caused some troubles (as they always cause troubles when they come in italy), BUT this has nothing to do with those bastards romans who were carrying knives..... so no matter what u did, we did something worst.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

you make some good points, but they dont apply here. The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police. That is a fundamental flaw in your argument. If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized? The conditions in england also need to be noted, do not include baton weidling police who randomly beat away supporters including the elderly and females. These reports are comming from the BBC and other news agencies as well as United supporters and officials. Your basically saying without law all people will act like animals, and you have to apply the law and policing in order to keep the animals in line, if not you have situations like in italy where the animals are free to roam... I think its not so cut and dry. I think there are bigger issues here then whats on the surface.

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

No one is blameless in this situation. roma fans for charging the barrier and throwing stuff, the manc fans for retaliation and the police who were just waiting for the chance to act.

If you go to european aways in italy you have to expect that indimidating treatment, or dont bloody go. You have to just sit there and take it watch the game and then get out , you certainly dont react to it no matter how much you want to.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

no, but the police shouldnt be blamend at all! And there in the middle of it! it was few manc fans, not the entire section. human reaction dictates if someone takes a swipe at you, you swipe back. the police are there to prevent this from happening and if it does to "police" the situation. Thats not what happend, now is it? You have a good point, but again its incredibly troubling to me when the police are agitating the situation, it doesnt help italy in this crucial time. This could lead to a ban from all european competetions... you never know...

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

the police are waiting for a reaction. Those few united fans gave them a reaction. If the united fans dont react the police dont come down on them hard, and if they do they have no fallback excuse.

Its common sense in the end. That doesnt dismiss the idiocy and encitement of the italians, but until italy sorts itself out those away games there have to be treated with utmost precaution - that includes biting your lip and turning a blind eye if necessary.

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

huh im not following you... at all. The police are there to prevent violence not punish. They should have arrested the offending fans, not randomly beat the shit out of away supporters. The police acted as judge, jury and executioner. This is inexcusable in a free society such as Italy. When you see police beating unarmed and unprotected citizens, there is a bigger problem then football violence.

 

[lo zio]

ok, mate let's reason toghether about this. it might be a good way to put things in the right perspective.

you say:
Quote:
The reports comming out of rome are that the United supporters were indiscrimnitley attacked by.... the police.
now, i can see a sort of a paradox in this phrase.
look. i buy i newspaper this morning, and i read that "the police attacked english supporters indiscrimnitley" .
at this point the first thing that comes into my head is.. WHY??? those people are supposed to protect us, they are paid for this. So why should they attack people without a reason(coz this means "indiscrimnitley")? i could understand if 1 person would attack another person without a reason....u know people sometimes do weird things.... but when u say "police" u're not talking about 1 man, u're talking about a lot of men. so what? did they just get out of their mind? all toghether? in the same time?

so, just by reading that phrase, being a reasonable man, i wouldn't believe to that newspaper.

let's go further. u say
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
then i could reply to u; Why then do policemen always attack the same persons? better, the same kind of persons?
i mean, i, and millions of people (like Himawari, according to what he wrote), never had any kind of problems with the police at the stadium. if they really attack people "indiscrimnitley" why i wasn't ever "attacked"? do u think it's just a coincidence? it isnt. the truth is that policemen DON'T ATTACK INDISCRIMNITLEY". let me tell u this; each time u hear or read from someone or somewhere the word "indiscrimnitley", then u have to realize that what u're listening or reading is just wrong. NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A REASON. So, if someone tells u that the people was attacked indiscrimnitley, it means that he doesn't want to tell u why they were attacked, or that he didn't understand why they were attacked.

i usually see football matches from the sideline tribunes, coz our ends conditions are awful and i like to stay confortable. And , even if here in palermo, we never had troubles with our guest supporters, sometimes it happens that palermo's supporters in the ends have some problems with policemen (policemen never beated our supporters, but sometimes, they almost did it, the situation just calmed down before the degeneration). some of my friends prefere to see the match from the ends. they're not ultras but they say that they can "feel" the game when they are there. 5 years ago i had a conversation with one of them about policemen in that stadium. i asked him "why do our ultras have problems with our policemen (because of course, when i see the policemen loosing their coolness, i think that the ultras must have done something, it's obvious)?
then he replied "policemen are all bastards. they have such an horrible attitude. they act like fascists. It looks like they wanna stimulate our reaction. "
then i said to him "are u idiot or something? they're policemen not SS. They're just absolving their duties, trying to keep us safe. why should they act like this! it has no sense! they are here to avoid troubles, not to create them, and, according to the fact that they have problems always with the same 60\90 persons, it must means that those 60\90 persons actualy do something. Otherwise, why each time i talked with a policemen, i never had any problem? why they are always kind and polite with me? "
it was such a weird conversation, coz my friend is a nice, educated and cultured person; he's an university student (he was), but still he talked like an ultras.

then last year i had the chance to talk to a policeman. and i finally understood. it all starts from misunderstanding and fear.
this policemen told me that the "stadium duty" is a hell. Nobody wants to do it, especially in the ends.
because making the "stadium duty" it means staying in front of hundreds of guys excited for the match and angry (with policemen). so doing that stadium duty in the tribunes it's quite easy. people are all seat down, polite, "educated".
but in the ends there isn't only polite and "educated" people. there are also thugs. he said "those guys don't tolerate the authority, they don't tolerate us. no matter what we do, they are always against us. so if there's any problem, no matter what we do, they start throwing us everything lighters, coins, chairs, sticks. if 2 guys are having some troubles and start a fight, what should we do? we have to go there and try to divide them, to calm down them. but do u know what happens when we do it? then 50 guys come against us screaming and throwing objects.
so each time something "bad" happens, we have 2 choices; we can do anything and just let the situation degenerate. or we can act, but when we act, then the situation also degenerate because we acted. that's the reason why we have to be so "authoritary". because if those thugs aren't "scared" by us, they will attack us. and it's really frightening when 50, 80, 100, guys throw each kind of objects to u, screaming that u're a bastard, that they will beat u, and things like theese."

so on one side we have policemen who are scared by the mass, and because of their fear, they try to be as much authoritary as they can.
On the other side we have some guys who don't tolerate authority, and are prejudicially agaisnt the policemen (coz they consider policemen as the biggest expression of authority).
as u can see this situation can't bring anything good.

but it's all about context, about scenario. the same policemen are always nice and kind with me and all the other people in the stadium. coz they aren't scared by us. they don't see us as dangerous persons.

in my job i come in contact with robbers, petty criminals, murderers, mafiosi.
and i learned that their reactions depend by how they're approached. Csaunders, u're an educated, cultured man; if i'm rude with u, then your reaction will be "why are u so rude with me?". generally if you're rude with a thug, he won't ask u just why, he will overreact being even more rude than u. so it's all about approach, it's all about context.
it's not about being animals, like u say. but it's about instinctive reactions. our instinctive reactions might be different, depending on how we are stimulated, approached. and the instinctive reaction of 1,3,8 people, in a particular scenario as a stadium, may degenerate into a riot involving much more people.
and an educated, cultured person can control his instinctive reactions better than a thug, of course.
that's the reason why policemen troubles are always in the ends and not in the sideline tribunes. the ends here in italy are very cheap, poor people, and thugs can be found only in the ends.

my friend, when i talked to him about the policemen at the stadium, replied to me like he was an ultras. but if i'd go with him to the theatre for an opera, and a "steward" would come to him, asking not to speak loud, he wouldn't be rude. He would just smile and do what the steward told him. this because he don't see the steward as an expression of authority. it's just a gentle steward who is asking him to be quiet. so he won't be angry with the steward.... he will be embarassed for the troubles he caused by talking loud.
when the context changes, the reaction changes too.


Our policemen aren't hostile. they're unprepared to face the mass (when the mass is composed by thugs, or by drunk people like english guys yesterday). coz of this unpreparation, they are scared, coz of their fear, sometimes they overreact.
our ultras are not (all) devils (exactly as those english guys yesterday). they just see our policemen (with their stick and all the equipment) as enemies (while they aren't).

so, to reply to your question:
Quote:
If the police the ones causing the violence, then how can you expect people to act civilized?
.. i can answer by saying that is not the police the ones causing the violence. violence comes from the misunderstanding between (some) people and the police. the problem is not the police neither the thugs or drunk people. the real problem is their relationship. the relationship between policemen and those guys. our policemen are good people. they just can't handle our ends. that's why we should put in our stadia just stewards.

in a cinema, ina a theatre, in english stadia, the context is different. the fans don't consider the stewards as "enemies", and the stewards aren't scared by the fans..... coz the are prepared.

that's why in a cinema, in a theatre, in an english stadium there are no disorders.

it's all about context, preparation, good approach, mate.
without theese conditions, there are misunderstandings. misunderstandings bring to fear. fear bring to disorders.

action - reaction. as i said before, nothing happens without a reason (and nobody beats people "indiscrimnitley").

this is about the police.
but when we talk about people walking with a knife, we're talking about criminals, maybe petty criminals, but still criminals.

@ Csaunders: mate, our conversations are becoming really an hard test for my english! It was a hell of a work to put all theese stuff in english, so sorry if i'm not so clear sometimes

 

[lo zio]

CSAUNDERS WROTE:

my friend but the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence. This is the flaw I see in your argument. The police reaction should never be violent, no matter what the action upon them was. This is what keeps a society civil. Once the police cross that line, its not longer police "policing" its now vigilantism. Its the police taking the law into there own hands. They should use reasonable force, i dont know how bashing a female who is unarmed is deemed reasonable. BUT as you state the police are not prepared to deal with violence, and this I alluded to earlier when I said its bigger then some random thugs acting out at a football match. There are huge problems in Italian football, and unprepared policeman is one of them. You and I are basically agreeing on the same thing I think. The way fans attend football matches in Italy MUST be changed. This kind of behaviour needs to end on all ends. We need peace in football.

 

[lo zio]

ANTRED WROTE:

sorry saunders but what do you want them to do? give the fans a stern telling off? Thye are at a match for goodness sake with thousands of people. While i dont condone it they will use force as a measure of control. As lo zio says theres a minority of police compared to the fans, so they need the batons to keep order.

What i was saying is that they will USE force if they see opposing fans (in this case man utd as the smaller minority and as such more controllable) react to the roma fans. Its not vigilante in the least

 

[lo zio]

Quote:
the police dont have to react violently to obtain authority... they can show force and be intimating in other ways that dont include violence.
of course mate, that's a right statement. And i'm sure that each policeman would agree with u...... when is seat down, calm, behind a monitor.
but when u face 100 guys screaming to u that u're a bastard, that they will kill u, and bullshit like theese, the situation is different.

there are a lot of antropologic studies about "the mass" and how people reactions change, when they feel they are part of a mass. Now i know, it might sounds crazy, but when we feel we're a part of a mass our "animal instincts" overwhelm us. our instintive reactions overwhelm our reasoning ability.
Police discovered that the murderer of Agent Raciti in catania was a 17 years old guy, son of a doctor and an engineer. he was supposed to be an educated guy, a cultured guy, a nice guy, and he probably is. but that evening he literally lost his mind. he lost his inibitions cause he felt he was a part of "something bigger", and he did something that, in "normal conditions" he wouldn't have done. that evening an innocent, educated guy turned into a killer. this means that in an "adeguate situation" we can loose control.
of course, as i said before educated and cultured persons are more able to control their instinctive reactions... and probaly that guy wasn't able to control himself coz, even if he is educated, he is very young.
now each police force, everywhere in the world knows this. thay know that in certain situation, even a nice guy can turn into a threat for their safeness (R.I.P. agent Raciti). So they go through a special preparation to face situation like, big concerts or politic manifestations).
but this perparation isn't enough to control a stadium. talking about security a stadium is an hell. really worst that an avenue or a "place for concerts". nothing can prepare u to this experience (as italians policemen know and as english policemen knew in the 80s).

when u're facing this kind of threat, u just can't "measure your force". morover there's no use to intimate, as anybody will even hear u. our policemen just loose their coolness, exactly as those guy do. opposite situation-same reactions. i know it sounds insane but i'm quite sure that even u and me, if we were in that situtation (10 of us in front of 100 of them, as Antred wrote) we would have a similar reaction. when u fear for your life u can't be cool, u can't reason, u can't measure your reactions (of course i'm not saying that is normal to die in italian stadia..... "just" 2 persons died in our stadia in the last 20 years.... but our policemen always have that feeling of danger, of course, no matter how many people died in the last 20, 30 or 40 years).

it's quite similar to the situations of militaries when they're in action abroad. quite often we hear about disgusting things done by our guys (in iraq, afghanistan, ex-jugoslavia territories, albania). do u think that those guys are really so cruel, so mean, so "animals". they aren't. Sometimes adrenaline might bring u to do unbelievable things, things that u wouldn't ever do when you're "cool". we have a lot of usa military bases here in italy. When Usa soldiers come here from iraq, they have to follow a "special rehabilitiation program" that helps them in gettin back to the civil society. i was astonished the first time i heard about it, but if u think to it, it's quite natural. the only undenyable truth is that we are all animals, no matter how educated, cultured or civilized we are. that's a matter of fact. and u can realize it when u see that illogical anger in some thugs eyes in the stadia...... u can realize it when u see the fear in our policemen eyes.

as u say this situation must end now. and we can do it, now we understood how to do it. by building new stadia, and by keeping our police forces out of our stadia. it's quite easy, but it will require at least a couple of years , imo
by now, juve is buildin his brand new stadium (it will be ready for next year) udinese, palermo, napoli, and reggina are building their new stadia. messina and torino already have their new stadia (they built them last year). other clubs are approving projects for their new stadia.

all theese new stadia will be owned by the clubs, they won't be owned by our cities; and this will allow our cities-boards to keep their police forces away (cause the clubs will provide about stadia security, like in england).
as i said before we're on our way

 

[ClassicManiac]

somebody should really teach you how to quote properly.

 

[lo zio]

sorry mate, did i make something wrong? if i did tell me, so i won't do it anymore

 

[Rocky]

somebody should really teach you how to quote properly.

You're so awesome.

 

[Rentalkid]

sorry mate, did i make something wrong? if i did tell me, so i won't do it anymore

Well, if it was your intention to post a dozen times instead of just putting everything you wanted to say in just one post like people usually do, then no, everythings molto bene!

 

[Rocky]

Well, if it was your intention to post a dozen times instead of just putting everything you wanted to say in just one post like people usually do, then no, everythings molto bene!

Not like it should matter on a forum with no post count. Plus, most of that stuff wouldn't fit in one post as I'm pretty sure there is a character limit.

 

[lo zio]

i see, rentalkid. actually my intention was to move a conversation we had on another thread, and i thought it would have been a mess if i would have posted all this stuff in just 1 or 2 posts.:roll:

i know posting many times, one after one other, is usually considered unfair, but there's no posts counter here, so i thought it wouldn't have been considered as spam.

anyway it must be my fault, thanks Rentalkind
i think i'll have a loook to our forum rules

No prob, Rocky, i'm quite sure it was my fault...... but still thanks

 

[Bothered]

the style of policing is cure rather than prevention its quite obvious (ok so a few rules are starting to come into place in italy)

the fact remains the english reputation unfortunately STILL proceeds them ie any guy 30+ with skin-head in a footy shirt is wrongly probably considered abit of a nutta and uncultured.

Cure

Why was an old 50/60 year old guy completely battered on the floor 15/16 times when he was doing nought just covering himself up this is caught on tv and been repeatedly shown on TV today. By the way by covering himself from blow to the head his knuckles busted in the process quite frankly the Italian Police willy nilly waving of the batons was nothing short of barbaric.

Prevention

Couple of points id like to hit on here why was there no Italian Police the other side of fence yet only Man Utd side of fence.After Roma scored clearly you see Roma fans running to fence antagonising but no where was Police to stop them. Also Roma fans were lobbing stuff over to Man Utd fans all night fireworks clearly not checked and this all started it because Man utd fan stupidly lobbed back

I was told that some areas in italian stadiums are considered "no-go" areas, it's a shame that it has come to this stage in those stadiums
-------------------------------------
Before anyone starts to deconstruct, I know these are minor points in a larger debate but i will need more time and space to be able to fit here, so before you begin to make any long narcolyptic points/view. feel free. I love it.

 

[lo zio]

the english reputation unfortunately STILL proceeds them ie any guy 30+ with skin-head in a footy shirt is wrongly probably considered abit of a nutta and uncultured.

.... yep, mate..... but by who? by idiots uncultured and prejudiced persons. do u really care about what theese idiots think?
i'd say that some people "stereotypes" everybody: italians, americans, english, germans.....
but i really don't care about those idiots who consider italians like "mario bros" or mandolino players, or mafiosi or whatever..... and i think u shouldn't care about those idiots who consider englishmen like drunk hooligans.

I was told that some areas in italian stadiums are considered "no-go" areas, it's a shame that it has come to this stage in those stadiums

honestly i don't know if this is true or not, so i can't tell u. but anyway we got so many problems...

i think that in the past 20 years we (italians) used to think that our situation was quite "normal". something like:
"the same things use to happen also in france, spain and in many other countries, we can't pretend all people in our stadia to be polite and educated and 2 dead people in 20 years is not so bad afterall".......... and other bullshits like theese.

but now the english experience is showing us how wrong is this. how a stadium can be as a cinema or a theatre, a place where people just enjoy a football match. we realized it and we're working on it. but u know, is not a quick change, it takes time.

 

[Bingham67]

I understand that it can be changed in time but like i said there was methods that would of prevented it. It does not take Einstein to work out the Police other night were setup completely wrong and this was a main catalyst for trouble.

Like i touched No Police on Roma side if there was this mess would not of happened because Roma fans would be scared to run up to it.

I still think Policeman should lose there jobs you cant just keep battering someone when there on the floor. That sort of scenes breads hatred to the Police what if that was your friend seriously the force they used there lucky no police are awaiting murder charges right now.

Something has to be done to the Police out there you cant get away with that more they do next time somebody might not be so fortunate.

Until someone grows some balls and stands up to this Polcie will continue to use it as a game. Really infuriated me to see the scenes trust me you dont need to be there that scene of old guy getting attacked is enough to condem the actions.

 

[lo zio]

I still think Policeman should lose there jobs you cant just keep battering someone when there on the floor. That sort of scenes breads hatred to the Police what if that was your friend seriously the force they used there lucky no police are awaiting murder charges right now.

as i said before i understand the reasons of policemen's bad attitude, but i blame them too.
moreover Roma's questore (the questore is some sort of a police chief) just said that an inquiry has been opened yesterday, and that all those policemen who "violated" their duties will be fired . Penal trials will follow the inquiry

 

[Bingham67]

as i said before i understand the reasons of policemen's bad attitude, but i blame them too.
moreover Roma's questore (the questore is some sort of a police chief) just said that an inquiry has been opened yesterday, and that all those policemen who "violated" their duties will be fired . Penal trials will follow the inquiry

Well hope there is an inquiry into it there was a few Policeman who used ridiculous force there some of them waving them battons like maniacs.

 

[gomito#10]

as i said before i understand the reasons of policemen's bad attitude, but i blame them too.
moreover Roma's questore (the questore is some sort of a police chief) just said that an inquiry has been opened yesterday, and that all those policemen who "violated" their duties will be fired . Penal trials will follow the inquiry

yeah but lo zio, your politicians are saying that the police did nothing wrong.... thats the bigger issue im talking about here..

 

[Rocky]

yeah but lo zio, your politicians are saying that the police did nothing wrong.... thats the bigger issue im talking about here..

Just letting you know most Italian politicians are retards.

 

[lo zio]

what politicians say doesn't matter. afterall, what did u expect from them? this situation created some kind of a diplomatic incident between italy and england, and according to the fact that both of them (english supporters and italian policemen) have their responsabilities, each one of them try to underline just the points in their favour.

the only important thing is what our inquirers will say, what our judges will say. and thank God both of them (inquirers and judges) do not depend by government in italy

edit:
Rocky, unfortunately u're right about most of our politicians (not all of them, btw ), but i think that every government in the world would have assumed the same position. it's quite natural.

 

[gomito#10]

Just letting you know most Italian politicians are retards.

thats the bigger issue here, for instance, arent the same people who go into trouble for the scandals that rocked italian football before the wordld cup, comming back and assuming the same roles they were fired from, or banned from, less then one year later...

 

[lo zio]

thats the bigger issue here, for instance, arent the same people who go into trouble for the scandals that rocked italian football before the wordld cup, comming back and assuming the same roles they were fired from, or banned from, less then one year later...

:shock: ?
actually not mate. we had a revolution.
new referee association managers, referee association president, new referee selectors, new lega calcio managers (the society that controls serie a) new federcalcio presindent (federcalcio is the italian FA)
.... as far as i know, nobody came back. and btw it would be impossible, as all those people were banned for 4, 5, 7 years (but no need to say that after4,5,7 years they won't come back as now they're "burned")

 

[gomito#10]

:shock: ?
actually not mate. we had a revolution.
new referee association managers, referee association president, new referee selectors, new lega calcio managers (the society that controls serie a) new federcalcio presindent (federcalcio is the italian FA)
.... as far as i know, nobody came back. and btw it would be impossible, as all those people were banned for 4, 5, 7 years (but no need to say that after4,5,7 years they won't come back as now they're "burned")

i heard the old ones are back... i need to go find where i read that...

 

[lo zio]

i heard the old ones are back... i need to go find where i read that...

maybe i know what u're talking about. maybe u heard about Matarrese who is our new laga calcio president.
matarrese has already been lega calcio president (and also federcalcio president)....... but we're talking about 15 years ago!
he wasn't involved in the italian scandal this summer, coz he had nothing to do with football in italy in the last 15 years