Bad news for italy

csaunders said:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=419449&cc=5901

if this is true, then again, its a bigger issue then football violence...
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i don't get it mate, why "bigger issue"? if that's true, the dinamyc of the death of agent raciti is different and that boy is not guilty. Where's the "bigger issue"?

btw, i read that testimony, and i have to admit that is very very weak. in the end that policeman wasn't even sure of what i saw,so...:roll:

btw the lawyer of the guy is, obviously, "riding this horse" and this could become his strategic line, during the next stages of the trial.

we'll see.:)
i'd be very happy if that guy wouldn't be guilty, but as i said, that testimony is really weak. :(

talking about the "italian supporters situation" this wouldn't change anything btw.

i mean if that guy didn't kill raciti, then it's good news for him, but our problem is not the situation of that guy or the death of agent raciti (wich is just a tragic consequence of our problem), but the disorders, wich are undenyable. :(
 
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lo zio said:
i don't get it mate, why "bigger issue"? if that's true, the dinamyc of the death of agent raciti is different and that boy is not guilty. Where's the "bigger issue"?

btw, i read that testimony, and i have to admit that is very very weak. in the end that policeman wasn't even sure of what i saw,so...:roll:

btw the lawyer of the guy is, obviously "riding this horse" and this could become his strategic line, during the next stages of the trial.

we'll see.:)
i'd be very happy if that guy wouldn't be guilty, but as i said, that testimony is really weak. :(

talking about the "italian supporters situation" this wouldn't change anything btw.

i mean if that guy didn't kill raciti, then it's good news for him, but our problem is not the situation of that guy or the death of agent raciti (wich is just a tragic consequence of our problem), but the disorders, wich are undenyable. :(
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cause it looks like a coverup.... is there a murder weapon? are there any witnesses?
 
no coverups mate. it was a riot. it's almost impossible to find a witness, i mean a credible witness. and about the murder weapon, well if u take a look at the images u'll see something like 1000 possibles weapon murder, sticks, fire estinguishers (:shock: ) pieces of chairs, chains.

and, most important of all, there wouldn't be any reason to create a coverup. as i told u before, here in italy the pubblic attorney isn't elected by the people. it has no pressure. he doesn't have "to find a guilty no matter what", he's absolutely free (wich is a great thing).

in this system "coverups" have no meaning, are useless.
 
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lo zio said:
no coverups mate. it was a riot. it's almost impossible to find a witness, i mean a credible witness. and about the murder weapon, well if u take a look at the images u'll see something like 1000 possibles weapon murder, sticks, fire estinguishers (:shock: ) pieces of chairs, chains.

and, most important of all, there wouldn't be any reason to create a coverup. as i told u before, here in italy the pubblic attorney isn't elected by the people. it has no pressure. he doesn't have "to find a guilty no matter what", he's absolutely free (wich is a great thing).

in this system "coverups" have no meaning, are useless.
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hahahhahaahah cmon man, you live in a society run by mafiosos and corrupt politicians, and you trying to tell me coverups have no meaning...
 
csaunders said:
hahahhahaahah cmon man, you live in a society run by mafiosos and corrupt politicians, and you trying to tell me coverups have no meaning...
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You know that i like you very much CSaunders, but the last days you are using rather cheap shots: the role of the Belgian chocolate eaters in Africa and now "a society run by mafiosos and corrupt politicians"...this is almost racist... and that only for a football riot...
I was not in Rome (nor in Sevilla, but that was "only" Spurs and i bet you don't matter much about that) and so i can only talk about what our chocolate eating journalists are writing. Video's proved that Man Utd (and in Sevilla Spurs') "fans" started the riots...
If the Roma "fans" (they are not angels, i know) run riot in Manchester i bet you will the defend the English police and that in no circumstances you would talk about a cover-up...
But that's not my point, i admit that i haven't enough knowledge to participate in the discussions about the riots in Rome (but then again, who on this forum has???) so i' apologize for what i just wrote...

But please my friend stop making cheap stereotypes...
 
HAHA mafiosos and corrupt politicians? CSaunders have you looked at OUR OWN government?! Dude the words corrupt and politician go hand in hand...

Mafiosos? Dude come on why are you attacking his whole country, Italy is not run by what you claim, sure there's plenty of instability there but they don't go around terrorizing other nations who they helped arm in the first place, do they now? You need to examine your own country's situation before attacking another. In Colombia, where I'm originally from, it's ten times worse than it is in Italy, the "mafiosos" and corrupt politicians work together in some ways even, publicly. Even America has openly aided terrorists, ever hear of the Iran-Contra scandal? These are people we ourselves have put into power.

I think you're just sore because Italy won the cup and the USA crashed out in the first round, and the only way the USA national team scored against Italy was through an own goal (Note: I actually like watching the USA NT play, I'm just saying this to demonstrate, essentially, what you're saying to the Italian users of this forum, in a slightly different context).
 
200_pesos said:
HAHA mafiosos and corrupt politicians? CSaunders have you looked at OUR OWN government?! Dude the words corrupt and politician go hand in hand...

Mafiosos? Dude come on why are you attacking his whole country, Italy is not run by what you claim, sure there's plenty of instability there but they don't go around terrorizing other nations who they helped arm in the first place, do they now? You need to examine your own country's situation before attacking another. In Colombia, where I'm originally from, it's ten times worse than it is in Italy, the "mafiosos" and corrupt politicians work together in some ways even, publicly. Even America has openly aided terrorists, ever hear of the Iran-Contra scandal? These are people we ourselves have put into power.

I think you're just sore because Italy won the cup and the USA crashed out in the first round, and the only way the USA national team scored against Italy was through an own goal
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:applause: Very well said amigo.
 
csaunders said:
hahahhahaahah cmon man, you live in a society run by mafiosos and corrupt politicians, and you trying to tell me coverups have no meaning...
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well mate, my city and my region (sicily) have still enourmous problems, talking about mafia. but of course, this has nothing to do with what happened in catania.
when u talk about mafia u talk about corruption,loans, narcotraffic, tenders contracts.
it might sound strange, but they never "covered up" anything. Till 25 years ago, when they really used to run sicily, they were so powerful they didn't need to cover up anything....today they find easier to run when our pubblic attorneys and magistrates are following their traces.

i didn't meant to tell u that i live in a perfect society. we still have monumental problems, but coverups isn't one of them. as i told u before, our system is very different from usa system. we got different problems. coverups are a big issue in usa, but in usa the role of the pubblic attorney is completely different from the italian one.

just to give u an idea: we know everything about the sicilian mafia; their organization, their ties with some politicians, their affairs, their members... every fucking time those bastards killed one of us, we discovered, they never managed to cover up anything.

but mate, there's one fact that more than what i wrote till now, will make u understand why coverups have no meaning here.
It's so IMPOSSIBLE to stop our magistrates, that there's just 1 way for mafiosi to avoid their crimes being discovered. Killing our magistrates.

U know, sicily is famous just for mafia and corrupt politicians. but each coin has 2 faces. And it's sad to notice that nobody knows the "other side of the coin"; our great magistrates, people who gave their lives to clean sicily and his image.... people who fought ALONE (as there was no state, no politicians beside them) against the world's most powerful criminal organization..... and WON.

When Tommaso Buscetta (ex-mafioso, first testimony in the famous maxi-trial of the 80s) told Giovanni Falcone that he was going too far, that he was discovering too many things about the ties between mafia and sicilian politicians, falcone replied: "who do u think u're talking to! I'm a sicilian magistrate, i know they'll kill me, but as long as i'll stay alive, i'll do everything i can to catch them.... i know that sooner or later i'll be killed...... and that's the reason why i have to hurry up and discover as many things i can, before they'll get me".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Falcone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Borsellino

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocco_Chinnici

theese are just a few of them. i could name others 20 magistrates (the word "heroes" would be more appropriate than magistrates)that followed the same path....... Antonino Caponnetto, Giuseppe Aricò, Salvatore Niscemi, Giuseppe Cangelosi, Michele Izzo and many others...
they were the reason why i decided to study law.

now, u may believe me or not, but there's no room for the word "coverup" in an italian magistrate dictionary.
 
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200_pesos said:
HAHA mafiosos and corrupt politicians? CSaunders have you looked at OUR OWN government?! Dude the words corrupt and politician go hand in hand...

Mafiosos? Dude come on why are you attacking his whole country, Italy is not run by what you claim, sure there's plenty of instability there but they don't go around terrorizing other nations who they helped arm in the first place, do they now? You need to examine your own country's situation before attacking another. In Colombia, where I'm originally from, it's ten times worse than it is in Italy, the "mafiosos" and corrupt politicians work together in some ways even, publicly. Even America has openly aided terrorists, ever hear of the Iran-Contra scandal? These are people we ourselves have put into power.

I think you're just sore because Italy won the cup and the USA crashed out in the first round, and the only way the USA national team scored against Italy was through an own goal (Note: I actually like watching the USA NT play, I'm just saying this to demonstrate, essentially, what you're saying to the Italian users of this forum, in a slightly different context).
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mate, i agree with some of the things u're saying, and i appreciate yours (and gerd's and mo dinero's) efforts to "defend my country", but i don't think csaunders meant to be mean, and i don't think meant to be sore coz of italy national football team's achievements.

csaunders is just a onlooker man (and this is a great thing) and he likes to explore each possibility..... and i like it because this gives me a chance to explain a couple of things and to dismantle some wrong informations about my country :)

for example, mafia isn't an italian problem... it's a sicilian problem. if u'd talk to a firenze citizen, a napoli or roma or torino or milano or venezia citizen about mafia, u'd realize that they don't know anything about it (like almost everybody in the world). Mafia it's a sicilian problem. italy isn't run by mafiosi and corrupt politicians..... sicily is run by them....... better, sicily was ran by them, as today the situation is very different. nowadays all the most importants bosses of the last 20 years are in prison. our police forces, our magistrates are reaching great achievements in their war against mafia. of course mafia is still alive, but now we destroyed mafia's hierarchies, we hitted their chiefs, and mafia lost 90% of their power on the sicilian teritory.
they have no chiefs anymore, they have no money anymore (as we reached their bankary accounts) (and this is most important). we made more in the last 20 years than in the previous 100 years in our battle against mafiosi.
sorry for this little off topic ;)
 
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about csaunders I would love to say his post is all sour grapes,but I know his family comes from Italy so he thinks he has the right to say anything wants... Rudolph W. Giuliani for president :mrgreen:


How does it feel to be jumped on ! j@king
 
beboq said:
about csaunders I would love to say his post is all sour grapes,but I know his family comes from Italy so he thinks he has the right to say anything wants...
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mate, it doesn't matter if he has italian origins or not. the only important thing is that (and i can notice it by reading his posts) that he doesn't want to attack anybody, he just wants to understand.....like many people on this forum...
...and that's the reason why i like to chat with him (like with many people on this forum ;)
 
lo zio said:
mate, . the only important thing is that (and i can notice it by reading his posts) that he doesn't want to attack anybody, he just wants to understand.....like many people on this forum...
...and that's the reason why i like to chat with him (like with many people on this forum ;)
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Bullshit! he loves to attack that what he does... he just read a few lines and runs with it. Your the only person Who looks for the good in people until you find their motives then you attack

csaunders defends or attacks and besides gangsters R all from Jersey :mrgreen: *cough**sopranos*cough*
 
beboq said:
Your the only person Who looks for the good in people until you find their motives then you attack
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sorry mate, what does the word "motives" mean? :) never heard it before.

btw mate, i can't consider this phrase as an attack.
you live in a society run by mafiosos and corrupt politicians
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as i said before, mafia nowadays is really weaker than 20 years ago, but it isn't already dead...... at all.
the actual regione Sicilia president (which is something like us state governors) is at the moment under investigation (by our magistrates) for his supposed ties with some mafia families.

so, as u can see mafia is far from vanished. But as i said before, sicilians politicians have no control over our magistrates, who are absolutely free in their activity.
our system rules make coverups impossibles in italy.... our rules and the undenyable morality of our magistrates (who are very different from our politicians).

and i'd say that the fact that a pool of sicilian magistrates are investigating about our governor activities, is a perfect evidence of what i'm talking about :)

btw guys, this has been a nice, enjoyable and fair conversation till now..... let's keep it on this level ;)
 
beboq said:
motives = there intenions (motivi)or(del ritrovamento intenzioni là)
:lol: *whiteFlag*
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gosh, it was so obvious.... motives = motivi :lol:
thanks mate;)
and btw, no need to lift white flags, we weren't fighting... or at least, if we were, i didn't notice it :lol:

:)
 
Hey just want to clarify, my sour grapes comment was a joke, to illustrate basically what he was saying to lo zio (not the best example maybe).
 
^^

no my translation w/ a person giving me the spelling
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:D

Hey just want to clarify, my sour grapes comment was a joke, to illustrate basically what he was saying to lo zio (not the best example maybe).
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;)




gettin' back on topic...
domestic affairs minister opened today (another) inquiry about Stadio Olimpico incidents.

....we'll see :)
 
200_pesos said:
HAHA mafiosos and corrupt politicians? CSaunders have you looked at OUR OWN government?! Dude the words corrupt and politician go hand in hand...

Mafiosos? Dude come on why are you attacking his whole country, Italy is not run by what you claim, sure there's plenty of instability there but they don't go around terrorizing other nations who they helped arm in the first place, do they now? You need to examine your own country's situation before attacking another. In Colombia, where I'm originally from, it's ten times worse than it is in Italy, the "mafiosos" and corrupt politicians work together in some ways even, publicly. Even America has openly aided terrorists, ever hear of the Iran-Contra scandal? These are people we ourselves have put into power.

I think you're just sore because Italy won the cup and the USA crashed out in the first round, and the only way the USA national team scored against Italy was through an own goal (Note: I actually like watching the USA NT play, I'm just saying this to demonstrate, essentially, what you're saying to the Italian users of this forum, in a slightly different context).
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as bebo noted im Sicilian in lineage... belsito is my sicilian namesake.. Sure this is corruption in the United States, althought what your talking about in regards to arming terroists is certainly up to debate, in your context.. Now as for your USA comments, were not talking about USA now are we? If you want to open a Problems with USA football thread, then go for it...

I have nothing against the italians on this forum, but i find it funny that its impossible to have a coverup in a country where nepotisim, corruption, political wrangling, are all common place.. but hey im learning, lo zio is a smart and he is education me on the magistrate, which is seprerate from policticans

p.s.
if you really think that iran-contra was a open attempt at helping terrorist, then you really should read more history books
 
First off, the Iran-Contra, wasn't openly done but it was aiding terrorism, but secondly I have no problems with the USA, I was just stating simple facts man. Plenty of things can be up for debate, and I didn't say you have anything against anyone. I was just pointing out parts of your argument which maybe you need to think through just a bit more, before you go on a big argument with a guy about politicians. It's good that Lo Zio is helping you learn about magistrates, wonderful.
 
beboq said:
good Idea to bring in Italian police to control Italian fans :roll: smile your on camera :D
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Good idea if they recognize known hooligans from home. English police used to travel to away games and film the crowd. I travelled away with Stockport and United and it was the same coppers every week.
 
sorry guys, but it's not about learning or teaching. i'm not teaching anything.... i'm just sharing some informations (objective) and views (personal), like everybody here. :)


as bebo noted im Sicilian in lineage... belsito is my sicilian namesake..
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:) didn't know it, Csaunders :)

gettin back on topic:

from espn news:

ROME, April 13 (Reuters) - Italy, still smarting after last week's clashes between Manchester United fans and police in Rome, are taking a big step toward a more English-style security scheme swapping police for stewards in stadiums.

This week's decision, which aims to gradually replace police with stewards, comes just days before UEFA's Executive Committee decides who will host the 2012 European soccer championship.

Italy is a candidate, as are Ukraine-Poland and Croatia-Hungary.

Italy already has stewards in stadiums but Interior Minister Giuliano Amato said that this week's 'protocol of understanding' commits sporting authorities to give stewards the training they need to carry out the security tasks now handled by police.

Amato said the plan would eventually make police 'superfluous', and compared it to English-style security. It was not clear how long it would take for police to be completely eliminated from stadiums.

'I have an appreciation for the English model. We ourselves are heading in that direction and this agreement is a testament to that,' Amato told reporters.

At least 18 fans were injured in clashes between police and rival fans at last week's Champions League quarter-final first leg in Rome, sparking accusations by United and their supporters of heavy-handedness by Italian police.

Rome security officials deny wrongdoing. Amato tried his best to strike a conciliatory tone at the signing ceremony for the stewards measure on Thursday, saying 'we try to see the vices and virtues on both sides'.

'There is no doubt that during the Rome-Manchester match at the Olympic stadium there was one policeman who used his truncheon excessively against a person on the ground,' he said. (:applause: )

'But to judge our police based on that single image is distortion ... The worst things happened outside (the stadium). There were injuries caused by stabbings and certainly not by police.'

Achille Serra, the government official responsible for public security in Rome, repeatedly defended the police saying they acted properly and decisively.

Amato, speaking about the English model, said he admired the speed with which British security responded at stadiums.

'Part of the English model is also the immediacy with which one acts against who carries out acts of violence in the stadiums, and this, I think, is the best deterrent.'
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link to the article
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=421300&cc=5739

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concerning the agent Raciti's death, yesterday italian tv showed an important video. Raciti was visibly limping and touching his own flank....
the intersting thing is that this video has been filmed 18 mins before that accident with the police car (the same accident that policeman was talking about in that testimony).
So the "accident theory" and that testimony becomes even weaker than before.

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concerning calciopoli (moggi-gate):
yesterday the pm (magistrates) Beatrice and Narducci formalized their accusations to all the people who was involved in the moggi scandal, this summer.
all the sentences and punishments we saw till now were from sport authorities and sport courts.
Yesterday the criminal trial started, as the "investigation phase" finished.
48 "avvisi di garanzia" (formal accusation acts) have been sent to 48 people (moggi, giraudo, 14 refs, 15 linesmen, ex federcalcio managers and some serie a clubs financial managers, like Fabiani, financial manager of Messina football team).

the accusations are for "associazione a delinquere".... honestly i don't know how to translate it, but it's one of the heaviest criminal accusations..

things will get very intersting soon.....;)
 
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lo zio said:
When Tommaso Buscetta (ex-mafioso, first testimony in the famous maxi-trial of the 80s) told Giovanni Falcone that he was going too far, that he was discovering too many things about the ties between mafia and sicilian politicians, falcone replied: "who do u think u're talking to! I'm a sicilian magistrate, i know they'll kill me, but as long as i'll stay alive, i'll do everything i can to catch them.... i know that sooner or later i'll be killed...... and that's the reason why i have to hurry up and discover as many things i can, before they'll get me".
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That man made good bread! Forget the crime!

bruschetta-with-tomatoes.jpg
 
That man made good bread! Forget the crime!
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bread? never heard about this


are these claims true rides a bike to the stadium
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all the players and coaches that signed for inter always have nice words for Moratti (ronaldo, kanu, roberto carlos, sukur, baggio, henry, djorkaeff, salas, hodgson, simoni, lucescu)...
they always talked about him as a classy man....old italian style
 
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