WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread

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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

dejavu76 said:
In fact you have so little control on the penalty shoot/save that if you'd view it from the dressing room would be the same.
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Amen. :)

Putuco Malo said:
Sounds terrible.

I want to ask this: that PCAction video is not from PC? Also, I think that the PS3 version is the slowest, according to rumours. Hope so, because that video is FRENETIC my friend!!

I correct myself: that video can be only from Xbox 360 or PC because of the buttons on screen...
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What I don't understand is why KONAMi would make one version slower than the other? It is the same game, why would they slow the animation speeds etc down on one platform only? If they are struggling to meet the deadlines, why would they spend timw tinkering with each platform independantly, especially about non-platform features like the overall game speed etc.

The japanese version being slower I can understand sinve it is treated separately. But "PES2008" is one game on multiple platforms. And besides, KONAMI surely have ONE version that they consider "the" version. If they release differently playing versions on different platforms, what does that mean? They don't really have a plan with what they are doing? (or do they think that the PS3 players think slower and thus need more time to react to the action... ;)).

The PS3 being slower smells of bull to me...
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Dead Man said:
Well as WENB have played it & said it slower i am inclined to believe them
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Yeah, I understand that. I also don't think they are lying or such, I want to be clear on that.

But I've seen videos where people say "ohh, that's much slower than the Demo" and it's the same pace as the demo (keeping in mind a Demo match with Brazil vs. Argentina will be slightly faster than Tottenham vs. Everton).

There is just too many error margins for any reports like these to be taken seriously, like the size of the TVs, the camera distance from the field, etc.
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Trance_Allstar said:
Yeah, I understand that. I also don't think they are lying or such, I want to be clear on that.

But I've seen videos where people say "ohh, that's much slower than the Demo" and it's the same pace as the demo (keeping in mind a Demo match with Brazil vs. Argentina will be slightly faster than Tottenham vs. Everton).

There is just too many error margins for any reports like these to be taken seriously, like the size of the TVs, the camera distance from the field, etc.
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Fair enough. Lets just hope it aint delayed....seriously
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

If it is true what Kamy100 says about the certification-process taking upto 4 weeks, I can't see the game will be released on the 25th/26th :(
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Dead Man said:
Fair enough. Lets just hope it aint delayed....seriously
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I actually find myself hopeing they are delayed (:/), I hope they take their time in getting the game proper for release. Although it seems weird for me that they have time pressure considering the IMO fairly modest upgrades that seem to have taken place.

Ohh well, I just hope that they sort many things out by the time it comes out.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

I hope it gets delayed if it means we recieve a better game.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

I can guarentee the game is slower than the demo, but thats only because I played in wide cam. Before you get the game have a bash on the demo for a few games. Then when you play the final version pop it into wide cam and you'll see the difference.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Adonis, two questions:

1: Do you also think it is too late that the game will be released in time, because they are not gone gold yet? Certification process at LIVE and Sony seems to take upto 4 weeks...
2: When can we expect the next podcast?
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Dead Man said:
Cheapskate

;)

Also ship sinking?? 6m PS3 sold with an overpriced machine with no games.

Cheaper machine when they have games coming out. Smart move.

Hopefully there may be more players on PES2008 now

:)
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First thing u learn in business, if u sell well lower the price.....makes a lot of sense.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Adonis said:
I can guarentee the game is slower than the demo, but thats only because I played in wide cam. Before you get the game have a bash on the demo for a few games. Then when you play the final version pop it into wide cam and you'll see the difference.
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Hey Adam. ;)


But see, this is the problem I have. My definition of the game being slower is that the animation speed is reduced across the board.

It's like saying that "PES is 10x slower than real life soccer", when you are just observing PES from a camera 10x farther away than in real life matches. It isn't 10x slower, it just appears that way.

Or, saying that "PES is very close to real life football, because the game moves as fast as real life football", when you have a camera 10x farther away from the pitch (Which obviously means that the PES players can shoot a shot at 1000 km/h). Not even close to reality.


I am not really intertested in the speed of the game relative to the camera distance or such. I am interested in the actual speeds (as in, how long does it take for a longpass to go from a player to a teammate 50m away, and how does that relate to reality). Or how long it takes for a player to run x meters, compared to real life.

Certain turns, and even worse some transitions between moves that wouldn't really be possible in real life etc in the Demo are way too fast. These will still be as fast in the wide camera, althoug they will "seem" slower.


And, while the ball will seem to travel slower, a longpass will still reach your teammate in x seconds, whether in wide cam or not.


So we need to make sure we recognize if we are talking about slower in terms of the game being actually slower (longpasses taking longer time to reach their targets, players turning slower and transiitoning between certain situations slower, an animation taking 0.7 seconds as opposed to 0.4 secodns to complete) or just "appearing slower because of camera distance".



My point is that, people (I am generalizing here, so anyone should correct me if you feel I am wrong) aren't complaining about the game being too fast because the camera is too close to the ball. People are complaining the game is too fast because the players do certain things much faster than real humans do. No camera angle will change that, only slower animations and ball speeds will do that.



No disrespect intended in any way, you guys have my full support always. :applause: ;)
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Hopefully they delay the game, so they can add HD fur to the penguin costumes, and add the new slap eachother with a fish celebration.

Cant Wait.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

:lmao: good points. My problem is with the game delayed that a friend is going to Europe tomorrow and he will be in Spain to buy the game on the release date. If the game is not released... oh well... I dont want to think about it :D
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

2002731545263687302_rs.jpg

LOL
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Trance_Allstar said:
Hey Adam. ;)


But see, this is the problem I have. My definition of the game being slower is that the animation speed is reduced across the board.

It's like saying that "PES is 10x slower than real life soccer", when you are just observing PES from a camera 10x farther away than in real life matches. It isn't 10x slower, it just appears that way.

Or, saying that "PES is very close to real life football, because the game moves as fast as real life football", when you have a camera 10x farther away from the pitch (Which obviously means that the PES players can shoot a shot at 1000 km/h). Not even close to reality.


I am not really intertested in the speed of the game relative to the camera distance or such. I am interested in the actual speeds (as in, how long does it take for a longpass to go from a player to a teammate 50m away, and how does that relate to reality). Or how long it takes for a player to run x meters, compared to real life.

Certain turns, and even worse some transitions between moves that wouldn't really be possible in real life etc in the Demo are way too fast. These will still be as fast in the wide camera, althoug they will "seem" slower.


And, while the ball will seem to travel slower, a longpass will still reach your teammate in x seconds, whether in wide cam or not.


So we need to make sure we recognize if we are talking about slower in terms of the game being actually slower (longpasses taking longer time to reach their targets, players turning slower and transiitoning between certain situations slower, an animation taking 0.7 seconds as opposed to 0.4 secodns to complete) or just "appearing slower because of camera distance".



My point is that, people (I am generalizing here, so anyone should correct me if you feel I am wrong) aren't complaining about the game being too fast because the camera is too close to the ball. People are complaining the game is too fast because the players do certain things much faster than real humans do. No camera angle will change that, only slower animations and ball speeds will do that.



No disrespect intended in any way, you guys have my full support always. :applause: ;)
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I understand where you are coming from, but its much more simple than that explanation isnt it? I mean if the game is quick its quick, and if its slow its slow. The player reactions etc isnt what Im talking about, its the overall experience.

So the experience that I had was a much more slower and considered game than what is available in the demo. Player reactions might be as quick as they are in normal cam, but that is just one element.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Han said:
Adonis, two questions:

1: Do you also think it is too late that the game will be released in time, because they are not gone gold yet? Certification process at LIVE and Sony seems to take upto 4 weeks...
2: When can we expect the next podcast?
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I think it will be out on time, Konami have so much planned regarding that specific date. Podcast up tomorrow mate, finished recording an hour ago.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Looking forward to the podcast mate. :)


Although I still don't agree with ya on the speed issue.

I would say that mostly everyone who argues that the game is too fast simply mean that the player animations are too quick and longballs are too fast to reach their destinations, to resemble real life football. When I say the game is "too fast" I don't in any way base that on the camera angle. It's not like I would say "now the speed is not too fast" if I moved another 3m away from the TV (sicne that would have the same effect as pushing the camera back, making the players smaller and making the distances between them slower. It's still too fast, because the players do stuff way faster than real players (my fixed point of comparison is how real players behave, and not how quickly I need to move my eyes to keep up with the players moving on the screen). When I refer to the speed of the game (for example the speed of running of a player), I refer to the players speed in relation to the pitch, not in relation to the area of the pitch I see on the screen.

Your argument would much better be stated by saying that the wide camera "makes the player run a shorter distance on the screen since the camera is farther away". Because it is only relative to the camera (and the amount of the pitch visible) the speed has changed, not in any other respect. So that's why I think it seems kind of weird saying "the game is slower" because for most of us that would mean that the game "moves" slower and such.


I always judge the speed with a "fixed" comparison, that of a "realistic speed" (obviously it's not fixed, but it is one that most people are familiar with and can relate to in some way), and it seems kind of backwards to me to have only the camera's view as a referencepoint when stating "the game is slower". It moves slower on the screen because the camera is farther away and thus everyhting is smaller yes, but it doesn't actually move slower, it's just an illusion.


To make an example that might suit better in this case;
If I see Carl Lewis running 100 meters with a far camera, and then from another viewpoint, maybe a tracking camera that moves alongside him, saying to a friend "Wow, Carl Lewis is running much faster now" will most likely have your friend rather confused, because he knows that Lewis ran 100m in 9:85, and thus the speed of Carl Lewis' race is a fixed value.




You are definitely not wrong when you say it moves slower, I just think that you are using an unusual reference point that I would wager leaves most people confused because they think that "the game is slower than the demo" means that, with all factors the same, PES runs slower. They aren't automatically going to assume that you are referring to the difference of Normal and Wide camera, because you didn't mention the camera. They think that the only difference you are talking about is the Demo vs. Current version, not far vs. normal camera (Because then it would be more natural to simply just say "the game is slower with wide camera").

I just feel that when you say "the game is slower than the demo", you are making a comparison, and unless you state the differing factors involved in the comparison (such as cameras etc) people are going to assume that none of those factors exist (in other words, that the cameras in the comparison were the same for both subjects, thus meaning that the players run a certain distance slower on the new version than the Demo).



This was a very long post for something that really isn't such a big deal, but I've read some reports of slower gameplay and gotten my hopes up, only to realize it is the camera that is the only difference, not the actual game (players, ball etc) being slower in pace (again, if Carl lewis runs 100m at a certain time, his "speed" is that time, and saying he was slower just because of a different camera makes no sense to me, because someone being slower to me will always mean he ran 100m at a slower time, and has nothing to do with what vantage point you have when watching it. A speed of 100 km/h is 100km/h regardless if you are near or far).


Also whenever you ewant to make comparisons between stuff, it just doesn't work to involve the vantage point (cameras etc) in the equation.


For example, most seem to agree that FIFA08 plays slower than PES2008, right? But if you change camera in FFIA to one really close, can you then suddenly state that FIFA all of a sudden is faster and more "arcade than PES? Try that on a forum and you are going to see some really confused people, because they don't compare the speed of the games by the perceived speed, they compare the absolute speeds (how long does it take to run 20m, how long does it take to execute a similar turning animation in the games, etc). Involving camera angles and vantage points when talking about a concept as "speed" which is very absolute is going to confuse alot of people. Ronaldinho's TopSpeed didn't increase just because i moved my head closer to the TV (his pereived speed did (his speed in relation to my eyes), but that is a pretty pointless thing to say when announcing that to people all around the world who all have different TV's, distances they sit from the TV etc etc.

Because not everyone uses the same camera, has the same size TV, sits the same distance from the TV, everyones perceived speed will be different, and thus it is not a good base for a comparison. Absolute speeds will always be absolute whatever camera setting or TV you have, and thus those are valid in all cases, which is preferable since you can make comparisons between for example FIFA08 and PES2008 regardless of what cameras people are using or other circumstances.
In any comparison, you want to keep the variables to a minimum. If you are going to compare "speed", then the only desired variable is "speed".



Again, this is really long, but I wanted to make sure that I really explained myself so as not to appear just argumentative and bitchy. ;) :)

Really, I could have written this in like 4 sentences, but I seem to have a knack of writing perhaps 30 lines just to make sure I have covered all my bases and given some examples to further give some perspective to what I am on about. Sorry. :)
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

PSM3 PES 2008 Blow-Out Scans

PSM3 promised us a PES 2008 blow-out and we have finally got the scans. Thanks to my main man Rob Taylor who has supplied the quality scans, so give him some love lads. The article is a great breakdown of PES 2008 and looks at all the aspects of the game including all the new Media Interaction in the Master League. It's a good read so I recommend you download the RAR file and read through them.

The main points I quickly picked out (really busy editing video!) are:

- Block tackles now included in the game (a la John Terry).
- Teamvision explanation and description of how precise it is.
- Description of the new tricks in the game and how to pull them off.
- Comparison of PES6 and PES 2008.
- Huge Master League explanation
- Fans now play a bigger part.
- Cosmetic changes showing of Trophies and Interviews with players.
- Clearer and easier to navigate menu's.
- Players get the opportunity to talk about their hopes and thoughts.

- You can use any face from the Eye-toy and or images to upload as a player face.
- Can also be used with club Logo's!
- 30 Boots and 74 Goal Celebrations. Even things like friendship bracelets!
- Description of Jon Champion and Mark Lawrenson Commentary with examples.
- Licenses Lists for National Teams and Clubs.

Unfortunately something in the article makes me think that we will be stuck with 59 tracks that Konami have put into the game! Nooo. Oh well, hope they allow us to use custom playlists.
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PSM3 said the game had 30 boots, now it only has 9? WTF

where did PSM3 got those 30 boots from? mybe they have info we dont have, mybe they know more then whats only on the beta versions, i hope the final version comes with those 30 boots and a huge edit mode.

we shoudnt start judging the game over versions that arent the final version..lets w8 and see.
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Trance_Allstar said:
In any comparison, you want to keep the variables to a minimum. If you are going to compare "speed", then the only desired variable is "speed")
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M8, not that I care that much but I have to point out that it is still relative based on view, take a plane in the sky, if you are watching a Jumbo jet from the ground then it looks like its moving slowly when in fact its airspeed is 100's km's/h. I understand the theory of speed = distance / time as I have a degree in mathematics, however in this case a game can seem slower / faster based on the view, the easiest way to prove this is with the older versions of PES on 4:3 and Widescreen, if you play 4:3 it feels slow, play on widescreen it feels fast. The game itself has not changed and the distance has not changed and your point of the ball geting from a to b has not changed.., however visually your brain sees the pitch as bigger (although its not its simply stretched) and therefore the player covers more ground in your eye's.

Not that I care cause I have no life and will be playing the new version for the next 12 months as I have with all the previous ones..

Cheers

Stumpy
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

I think Konami had the license for Nike, Puma and Reebok but then removed them for some reason.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

elrussi said:
I am crazy, o Winning eleven 2008 (beta) looks better than PES 2008(beta).

Look this video:
http://www.gamespot.com/video/94055...en-pro-evolution-soccer-2008-gameplay-movie-4
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LOL! it's the same.
What i like about the vids, is that it shows the actuall smoothy framerate of the PS3 version and the tempo and have to say with Adam: On widecam speed it seems to be good.
Also love the more natural colour palet over the cartoony 360 colours.

25th!
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

I wish PES could go back to the underground days when fewer kids were playing because they are the ones that moan the most. They just dont get what PES is about - no not kits, badges, boots, etc.
Its about the physics, response movement, collision this is what Seabass goes for the rest are just bonuses

Call me ignorant, boring, old fashioned whatever but this is my opinion. If you dont get it dont bother you probably never will.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

There is one thing that I cant get my head round.

Something doesn't quite add up here.

We were told that it was 2 Years in the making the "next gen" engine.

But now we are told its the PS2 engine polished up.

That's straightforward, but where have those silly running animations come from?

I fired up PES6 last night and the running animations on that are fine and realistic to a certain extent.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

cammeyboy said:
There is one thing that I cant get my head round.

Something doesn't quite add up here.

We were told that it was 2 Years in the making the "next gen" engine.

But now we are told its the PS2 engine polished up.

That's straightforward, but where have those silly running animations come from?

I fired up PES6 last night and the running animations on that are fine and realistic to a certain extent.
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I agree with you Cammey, for some reason I believe Seabass may well be working on a new engine but that we are not going to see it until next year, it's the only logical thing I can think of as to why it has taken as long as it has to complete this year's version. Because lets face it this a just a polished up version of the ps2 engine.

Now he is obviously cautious about releasing a different engine and alienating the fans. My thoughts are that becuase we were told he was going to implement 16 way movement etc. but that it didn't work well, he prehaps has somthing up his sleave. He clearly understands how important this is but prehaps it didnt work just yet. Maybe he said to his 'staffs' ok plan B use the engine from last years 360 game and we will work to get this right for next year. I mean its a long shot i know but it would go some way to answer these incosistancys we keep hearing.

Either way this year is going to be mediocre, he has now got a good comentator in, but if he expands the coding and way it works it will be on par with fifa. I believe seabass has used this years effort as a springboard for what will be the PES2>PES3 evolution of last generation.

My Personal 2 Pence anyhow.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

Yeah good post.

That would kinda make sense.

I have been playing the demo a lot lately.

And one thing that I dont think has been mentioned too often, is the replays are fantastic.

I mean really good they blow Fifa's replays out of the water.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

stumpy_uk said:
M8, not that I care that much but I have to point out that it is still relative based on view, take a plane in the sky, if you are watching a Jumbo jet from the ground then it looks like its moving slowly when in fact its airspeed is 100's km's/h. I understand the theory of speed = distance / time as I have a degree in mathematics, however in this case a game can seem slower / faster based on the view, the easiest way to prove this is with the older versions of PES on 4:3 and Widescreen, if you play 4:3 it feels slow, play on widescreen it feels fast. The game itself has not changed and the distance has not changed and your point of the ball geting from a to b has not changed.., however visually your brain sees the pitch as bigger (although its not its simply stretched) and therefore the player covers more ground in your eye's.

Not that I care cause I have no life and will be playing the new version for the next 12 months as I have with all the previous ones..

Cheers

Stumpy
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This is exactly what he (Trance_Allstar) is desperately trying to explain :)

Absolute speed vs Point of view. We need to isolate speed to measure and compare it.

Anyway mates loving physics, next year Backbreaker, I can't wait.
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/27/07)

If they could only use that euphoria engine to make a rugby game and not an american football one!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway both pes6 and the 2008 demo feels very light to me in terms of ball physics and players weight. In pes5 my impression is that they were heavier and that gave a more realistic feeling of simulation simulation.
 
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