WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread

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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

It's so annoying how it looks so brilliant closeup - and so distinctly average from a distance.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

@Airjoca, great post mate, would be great if everyone could be as openminded as you.

The faces look incredibly good btw, just a shame the rest isn't of the same quality.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

I must admit those faces look great. Ramos is almost photo quality. I'm still waiting for the demo and have been stuck on 30% for ages.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

sorry for the off-topic, where do you get those FIFA 08 Avatars??

i'm still downloading 19% long way to go..
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Few stats, thanks BlinkGT again

DEMO STATS (maybe not the same in final game)

Kaka :

213934888120070921183555.jpg


C.Ronaldo :

41619225720070921183648.jpg


Quaresma :

130348286220070921183714.jpg


Messi :

191990000720070921183737.jpg
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

airjoca, was that sarcastic or serious? i'm thinking sacrastic but i've only played the demo a few times so i'm not ruling anything out :)
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Trance_Allstar said:
I agree.

KONAMI are doing it all wrong.

Like you mentioned, they tampered with the shooting etc in PES6 and made it crap to avoid 10-1 blowouts.

That seems completely backwards.

We all know what footballs shots look like, and what power and speed they can get up to. Most of us have played football, so we know how easy and how hard it is to get certain shots on goal etc.

What KONAMI should do, is base things like shotpowers and such on facts. There are ways to measure how fast certain players shoot, and using that we can create a stat system where Adriano shoots as hard as he does, and lesser players are scaled down appropriately.

The difficulty of scoring must come from other places. Improving defence tactics and such would make it harder to score, while still keeping shots realistic.


Also, there is another huge source where KONAMI can make the game harder. US, the players.

Analog aiming means not only can we no longer play with Brazil and have scoring chances handed to us on a silver platter, we still need to aim passes and shots and longpasses properly. Skilled players (Ronaldo etc) are better at aiming where we want them to, but a much larger factor needs to rest on our shoulders.

Also, if you make passing "harder" by implementing analog aim and a power bar, then it would be much more satisfying to play real football, if that means just passing about in the back 4.

KONAMI seem to design the game so that we can avoid passing around in the back 4 looking for openings up front (by making players faster so we can just immediately sprint upfield), when they should spend time making that REAL football experience harder and more rewarding, by making passing rely more on your skill with the game pad and not all on the players stats.
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Trance my man,you need to be hired by Konami just for the amount of terrific ideas/suggestions I've read from you .TBH I haven't played neither PES2008's demo nor FIFA 08's . :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

tiktiktiktik said:
@ Trance Allstar,

Very good points, and i couldnt help but thinking; "Fifa has this, and it has that aswell, oh and they are doing it that way also".

The way you talk about passing it around the back 4 to look for openings up field is what you actually need/can do in fifa. I was playing with barca and was passing it about, the opponents kept pushing up a bit more giving less and less space to my free defenders eventually making me look upfield for an opening as i didnt have any defenders in space anymore. Fortunately i saw messi open on the wing and hit a long diagonal pass into space for him to run onto. Got near the penalty box but my cross was blocked for a corner. It felt great seeing the comp's ai adjusting and actually making it difficult for you to keep possesion. And then seeing the space and free messi on the radar and then also hitting a long pass to where you aimed (with non of the longpass scripting in pes) and it giving you and oppertunity to create a good attack. It felt so good and natural and down to me vs the AI in a worthy competition. Really good.
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Cheers hehe. ;)

Yeah, FIFA has the right idea (although it all comes down to design in the end, and some things in FIFA I have a problem with still... :)).

IMO it's all about constructing the game in the same manner as the real thing is constructed.


There are 2 main sections: The physics, and the tactical.

The physics really should be the least of KONAMIs worries. Shooting speeds, passing speeds, the way the ball bounces, the time it takes for a certain player to run 20 meters when in great shape, how responsive goalkeepers are to react to freekicks and shots... All these things are easily calculated from videos of real matches, or just plain physics books. And by looking at both the best and the "worse" end of the spectrum, you can get a very good sense for how the reqaction time of a world class keeper is different from a not-so-good keeper, or how Martins topspeed differs from some other players of varying speed-prowness.

The tactical aspects must then fit the physics.

In Tactical, you have both how players move, how they close down players, how they cover for teammates, ho they "think" in general. Here you also have how the gamepad interacts with the physics. More power gauge gives harder shots, but also higher trajectory, different ball spins etc.


I would give the world to see a game where all aspects are designed exactly like real-life. Not to the same detail obviously, since that wouldn't be possible even with a supercomputer.

But a game where for example the angle you tilt the analog stick when you shoot determines how the player shapes his foot (and thus how much foot he gets under the ball, resulting in a higher shot trajectory). Things like that.

But also purely physics, like shots hitting players arms causes the arm to flail (sort of a scaled-down version of "dead" ragdoll physics).

In that kind of system, you would need realistic animations, because the speed at which the leg hits the ball determines how quickly the ball bounces off the foot and thus the resulting shot speed.


Obviously this would be high tech, but even a scaled down version with less detail would be great.
Currently, the animation speed for shots don't change even though you apply different powers. It would probably be a breeze just making less hard shots have a slower leg movement for the shot animation. It looks kind of weird seeing one thunderbolt of a shot and a measly balloon shot come from the same shotanimation.
Or seeing any kind of balloon shot come from a laces shot (where there isn't nearly enough foot under the ball to cause the trajectory).
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

charlievolano said:
What happened to this editorial from a WENB member??? it disappeared......

PES Needs A New Direction - A CW Editorial
As I sit down to write this its been 2 weeks since I came back from the GC in Germany and something has been bugging me about PES since my little play test.

I bet you are now wondering what kind of rant I am going to launch into at this point and I can assure you that this is not an assassination of the game that had served me so well for many years but a mild irritation that will just not leave me alone.

We are now fully in the so called next gen of consoles (by the way, shouldn't we now be calling it current gen or we are going to be calling the next gen of consoles when they arrive next-next gen consoles...anyway I digress) and the base gameplay of PES hasn't actually changed all that much since we were in the full swing of Winning Eleven/PES on the PS2.

Basically what I am trying to say here is that as Konami are still developing the game for the PS2 is this hampering the series moving on and do they need to rip up the code and rewrite it from the ground up in order to make the game more appealing and/or playable to the next gen crowd.

We have all seen the screens and the videos by now and are slightly underwhelmed that the game looks only a bit more polished than it did last year with PES6. The players still move in the same way as they did on the PS2 and though there have been a few little animation additions you are still limited to what you can do with your players.

Don't think I am knocking the game because I love the way it plays, its simple enough to start with but the more you play the more you learn. Playing the game on the show floor at the GC with the PS3 pad brought the memories of nights with my mates round shouting all sorts of abuse at each other as we played for nothing but pride.

From the reception that the FIFA demo has been receiving lately I think that Konami need to take PES on a stage, rip up the code that they have been using for the last few years and give the fans what they yearn for and that is a true next gen experience or they could well lose the crown as the best football game and we don’t want that to happen!
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I agree in some way. But I find it pretty funny that people here are saying to rewrite the whole game, build a new engine when they know notting about real gamedevelopment. You dont think ea have rewrite the whole game from the ground up do you? EA is using the same core engine every year.
Same thing with konami.
They do a great job every year in tweaking the game. They will never throw this engine away, they worked all these years to get the engine where it is now. Dont forget, this is a solid and pretty impressive engine they have.
Also the engine itself has nothing to do with the old gen. Every developer is using the same core engine from the old gen when they make a next gen game, they just rewrite the top layers with the new fuctions and possibilities the next gen consoles gives them.

Just an example but if konami put more effort in the graphics everybody would go like "wow they have a whole new game engine"

I agree on the fact that they could add more options, online modes, etc to the game.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

TheJudge said:
I agree in some way. But I find it pretty funny that people here are saying to rewrite the whole game, build a new engine when they know notting about real gamedevelopment. You dont think ea have rewrite the whole game from the ground up do you? EA is using the same core engine every year.
Same thing with konami.
They do a great job every year in tweaking the game. They will never throw this engine away, they worked all these years to get the engine where it is now. Dont forget, this is a solid and pretty impressive engine they have.
Also the engine itself has nothing to do with the old gen. Every developer is using the same core engine from the old gen when they make a next gen game, they just rewrite the top layers with the new fuctions and possibilities the next gen consoles gives them.

Just an example but if konami put more effort in the graphics everybody would go like "wow they have a whole new game engine"

I agree on the fact that they could add more options, online modes, etc to the game.
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I agree with you ,it takes a lot of time and work to get an engine of a game running .To completely remove them and build them is stupidity ,however they are lots of things that they could do improve/tweak it .
Good post man :applause:
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Actually FIFA redid alot of their engine for FIFA07 360. Obviously they have a certain philosophy for how the game should play so it wasn't completely different from the older, but they implemented alot of new things. Physics (how the foot impacts the ball, the resulting spin from where on the ball the foot impacts). Etc.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Trance_Allstar said:
Actually FIFA redid alot of their engine for FIFA07 360. Obviously they have a certain philosophy for how the game should play so it wasn't completely different from the older, but they implemented alot of new things. Physics (how the foot impacts the ball, the resulting spin from where on the ball the foot impacts). Etc.
Click to expand...

Those physics are also in PES2008, we saw the development shots.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

kid_dynamite said:
airjoca, was that sarcastic or serious? i'm thinking sacrastic but i've only played the demo a few times so i'm not ruling anything out :)
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Of course it was serious.

Few other things:

Chipped shots seem better. And just noticed something that feels better than FIFA in a way. The skill moves are done in the same speed as the overall game.

Something I don't like about FIFA is the fact that the players seem a lot more agile and quick while doing tricks than doing simple things such as turning around with the ball.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

yacine said:
Maybe because PES is more intuitive and keep the same gameplay?

Maybe Because FIFA every change its gameplay?

I think for the first time since FIFA98 I'm gonna buy both games !
FIFA to play alone and PES for the multiplayer.
Both look good this year ! Both are the 'very first' real next gen football games.
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You hit the nail on the head, the two games will provide different aspects, to play the game by myself it will be Fifa to play online it will be PES2008
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Beatts said:
Those physics are also in PES2008, we saw the development shots.
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You are correct, I remember the Ronaldo shots.

However, that could also "just" have been how PES calculates accuracy errors. That specific system might not have anything to do with what curl the ball gets from striking it off-center. In other words, even if the player strikes the ball just on it's side (more of a glance), the ball might veer off to the side. But there is no guarantee that the ball also will get the appropriate curl (if you strike the ball on it's side usually it gets alot of curl).

Obviously I speculate now, and I agree that you have a very valid point. I hope to play or see the Demo tonight, and I will be keeping my peepers open for these sorts of things. I hope you are right and I will finally see some outwards-curled shots in PES (and not just instep-curled shots). :)
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

Jeet fukken CHRIST.

5 pages of Fifa fans out of nowhere.

Okey dokes. Here's where I stand. Pro Evo has ALWAYS had little intracacies that real footballers can identify with. There's always been that depth to the game where you can see attacking moves before they unfold.

Basically it plays as if you are watching a real football game.

What, pray tell, has Fifa done since 07 to make people change their minds? Because that game was just so monotone (best way of describing it) and detached from what I'd expect from a footy sim.

Someone please shed some light as to how Fifa has matched the subtle nuances that make PES what it is, as I'm relly not buying it. Pro Evo has had that little bit of magic for about a decade now, I don't see how Fifa can even get close to it in only a year.

I've seen a few Fifa vids, one where someone was doing a load of skills and some pre-rendered footage. Both of which didn't get my juices flowing.

Arse it, I'll download the demo and take this to the Fifa bit.



On topic, people with the demo. Free kicks, have they differed at all?

- the master of zico oriented free kicks right hurr
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

WANK OFF SHIRT UNTUCKERS!!!!!



@Badgerman, I took one FK with Ronaldinho so far, seemed pretty similar, I hit the bar.

Edit: can anyone tell me the actual way of performing the Ronaldo (Drogba, whatever) heel move? I've done it a few times, but not sure how I did. Went to commands and didn't get Konami's explanation.

One thing I got: Let go of RB, and press RB and LB and you start a sideways dribble.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 09/19/07)

airjoca said:
WANK OFF SHIRT UNTUCKERS!!!!!



@Badgerman, I took one FK with Ronaldinho so far, seemed pretty similar, I hit the bar.

Edit: can anyone tell me the actual way of performing the Ronaldo (Drogba, whatever) heel move? I've done it a few times, but not sure how I did. Went to commands and didn't get Konami's explanation.

One thing I got: Let go of RB, and press RB and LB and you start a sideways dribble.
Click to expand...
cammey boy can you now shut the fuck up about the untucked shirts?
 
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