Tottenham Thread

Yeah, I know what you mean and I saw on the replay that there was contact. But Welbeck provoked the contact - if he continued on his normal stride the normal movement would be for his foot to go over Lloris' hands.

As you said, refs give them. But I've also seen them not given.

The Brazilian midfielder you refer to must be Paulinho. He surges a lot forward and could have been better positioned, but it was Soldado's job to get on the end of that cross IMO.

I have the feeling Soldado is out of his depth, looking at the missed chance when Paulinho set him up earlier. Could be just a phase though, who knows?
 
gerd said:
I don't agree YoungGun, it's not because people pay a ticket that they can say anything.
I can understand AVB. Is that because i'm a Spurs fan ? Perhaps, but i don't think so...i still understand Cantona against Crystal Palace...

It is not because someone pays a ticket that he can shout whatever.There are limits to the freedom of speech.
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It's slightly different comparing Cantona and AVB in Norway though. Cantona was subject to anti-French, pretty much racist abuse by that fan seemingly simply because he was French. The abuse directed at AVB, while lacking class, was about his (apparent or possible) lack of ability to manage players. I'm against any kind of chanting that is based on the nationality, religon etc of the player, or any other factor beyond the control of the player (like the Belgian you mentioned who had the wife who eloped with the cyclist). Fans who chant stuff like that should be ejected. But fans who chant that an underperfoming manager will be "sacked in the morning" or that a profligate striker cant "score in a brothel", I'm not really sure those chants, while a little purile, warrant ejecting? Again I'm not saying it's a classy thing to do, but if AVB wants supporters like that ejected, it's a slippery slope. Quite a few Spurs fans booed the substitution of Lennon on Sunday, should they all be ejected for disagreeing with AVB?
 
ZeroTheHero said:
I said "I DON'T try NOT to be annoying".
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But you see, that was exactly what I wrote.
You clearly haven't been reading properly what we write here, so we might as well just leave it at that. It becomes useless to keep on discussing like this.

cfdh_edmundo said:
It's slightly different comparing Cantona and AVB in Norway though. Cantona was subject to anti-French, pretty much racist abuse by that fan seemingly simply because he was French. The abuse directed at AVB, while lacking class, was about his (apparent or possible) lack of ability to manage players. I'm against any kind of chanting that is based on the nationality, religon etc of the player, or any other factor beyond the control of the player (like the Belgian you mentioned who had the wife who eloped with the cyclist). Fans who chant stuff like that should be ejected. But fans who chant that an underperfoming manager will be "sacked in the morning" or that a profligate striker cant "score in a brothel", I'm not really sure those chants, while a little purile, warrant ejecting? Again I'm not saying it's a classy thing to do, but if AVB wants supporters like that ejected, it's a slippery slope. Quite a few Spurs fans booed the substitution of Lennon on Sunday, should they all be ejected for disagreeing with AVB?
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This is it, beautifully illustrated.
I too disagree with the incident, whilst not entirely approving that fan's behaviour. It's classless but not abusive, nor an offense by any means.
It's part of the football fan's culture, the same kind of humour AVB must surely encounter in England from opposition fans.
But what baffles me the most is the fact that UEFA actually agreed to remove the fan from his seat.
 
At least the draw shows signs of promise I guess. We're now into double figures for PL goals scored (yay!)

Lennon on the right looking good again (but not sure how Townsend fits into the team as a result.)

A confident Soldado would have put that chance away for 2-0. Brilliant build-up play between he and Paulinho (the Brazilian midfielder :-)) that led to it.

What a goal from Sandro but disappointed we couldn't hold on to the lead for a bit longer.

Onwards and upwards. Beat Fulham on Wednesday and we'll be back in the mix...
 
Rentboy said:
But you see, that was exactly what I wrote.
You clearly haven't been reading properly what we write here, so we might as well just leave it at that. It becomes useless to keep on discussing like this.
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If I were trying to be annoying, I would've just said that. There's a difference, hence the emphasis on those words. In other words I meant exactly what I said and nothing else.


Rentboy said:
It's part of the football fan's culture, the same kind of humour AVB must surely encounter in England from opposition fans.
But what baffles me the most is the fact that UEFA actually agreed to remove the fan from his seat.
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That bullying is a part of football fan's culture is simply a sign of how utterly stupid that culture really is and it isn't humor. Humor is something everyone can laugh about or at least not be hurt by. The person who is deciding whether it's bullying or not is ultimately the bully-target so it's not for us to decide what's OK for AVB or not. Lastly, there are laws protecting employees in work situations and bullying is one of the largest problems overall. Why shouldn't football staff be covered by the same system?
 
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ZeroTheHero said:
That bullying is a part of football fan's culture is simply a sign of how utterly stupid that culture really is and it isn't humor. Humor is something everyone can laugh about or at least not be hurt by. The person who is deciding whether it's bullying or not is ultimately the bully-target so it's not for us to decide what's OK for AVB or not. Lastly, there are laws protecting employees in work situations and bullying is one of the largest problems overall. Why shouldn't football staff be covered by the same system?
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Completely agree.
 
I'm not saying I'm in love with this culture which is marked by mob mentality and moronic antics by football fans. I'm just sayin AVB must have heard that countless times in England - and will hear it many times more.

I'd say when it's something offensive, it warrants punishment. When it's just piss-taking without any form of abuse, it should be ignored. If people get offended by it and expect actions to be taken, it just shows us how the world is becoming too soft.

The "sacked in the morning" is one the softest of chants you will hear at a football ground.

Maybe Gerd and Zero will have a different parameter for this. But having watched loads of matches in England at places such as the Emirates Stadium, Stamford Bridge and Selhurst Park, I can guarantee this sort of "bullying" is nothing. We could run a survey in these forums and you would see for yourselves the opinion of English fans.

And I don't even get me started on what Brazilian club fans shout at managers!
 
All dependance on the circumstaces rentboy.
I don't know how many people were present at the stadium in Tromsø.
I will try to explain myself with unrealistic figures.
If there only 10 people present and one idiot shouts from the beginning to the end, that is extremely annoying.
If there are 100.000 people present, then that same idiot is not annoying.

And about Cantona. For me that wasn't about racism, but about the fact that playing for a ticket doesn't give you the right to shout whatever you want.
 
But where do you draw the line then? Is it ok for fans to heckle a ref and chant "you don't know what you're doing", is it ok to chant a player's name if they want him to be brought on, say for Spurs fans to chant Townsends name in the first half on Sunday? By implication that is disagreeing with the manager. What about Arsenal fans chanting "spend some **ing money" at the board a few seasons ago?
 
cfdh_edmundo said:
But where do you draw the line then? Is it ok for fans to heckle a ref and chant "you don't know what you're doing", is it ok to chant a player's name if they want him to be brought on, say for Spurs fans to chant Townsends name in the first half on Sunday? By implication that is disagreeing with the manager. What about Arsenal fans chanting "spend some **ing money" at the board a few seasons ago?
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you mean for the past few seasons.;)
 
ZeroTheHero said:
If I were trying to be annoying, I would've just said that. There's a difference, hence the emphasis on those words. In other words I meant exactly what I said and nothing else.




That bullying is a part of football fan's culture is simply a sign of how utterly stupid that culture really is and it isn't humor. Humor is something everyone can laugh about or at least not be hurt by. The person who is deciding whether it's bullying or not is ultimately the bully-target so it's not for us to decide what's OK for AVB or not. Lastly, there are laws protecting employees in work situations and bullying is one of the largest problems overall. Why shouldn't football staff be covered by the same system?
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Humor is entirely subjective. All you've done here is limit the definition of humor by the standards of what you personally find humorous

You don't really believe what you've written. You have found jokes funny that others will have found offensive or hurtful, I guarantee it.
 
Godotelli said:
Humor is entirely subjective. All you've done here is limit the definition of humor by the standards of what you personally find humorous
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No it isn't. If the "humor" is hurting someone or makes fun of someone who doesn't think it's OK then it's bullying. If you think bullying is funny from time to time, then you should consider your own moral standards. Many people think that bullying IS humor, do you really want to be one of them? Or even better, do you wanna be one of those hypocrites that thinks some bullying is fine but once race is involved it is not OK anymore?

Godotelli said:
You don't really believe what you've written. You have found jokes funny that others will have found offensive or hurtful, I guarantee it.
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I haven't in my adult life laughed at a "joke" that is on anyone present's expense. Secondly, you can't guarantee anything you know nothing about.

Godotelli said:
So it just comes naturally then? :))
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Wow, you're funny.. I almost laugh if I tickle myself a little while reading. It means that I say what I feel needs to be said without regards to whether it will annoy anyone or not.
 
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cfdh_edmundo said:
But where do you draw the line then? Is it ok for fans to heckle a ref and chant "you don't know what you're doing", is it ok to chant a player's name if they want him to be brought on, say for Spurs fans to chant Townsends name in the first half on Sunday? By implication that is disagreeing with the manager. What about Arsenal fans chanting "spend some **ing money" at the board a few seasons ago?
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That is a question i can't answer theoretically. Both your examples are acceptable.
Look, there is a misunderstanding here. IMO what AVB did in Tromsø was rather silly. That is considered from an entirely theoretically point of view. I'm honest enough to understand him. In his place i would probably have done exactly the same. One of my 'moral guiding rules' (i realize this sounds pompous) is that if you annoy other people with the way you behave, then you stop behaving like that. If one can see that, one does not deserve to function in a context where there are lots of people. IMO The Norwegian fan got what he deserved, it was silly from AVB act like he did, but i understand him and likely i would have done like him.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
No it isn't. If the "humor" is hurting someone or makes fun of someone who doesn't think it's OK then it's bullying. If you think bullying is funny from time to time, then you should consider your own moral standards. Many people think that bullying IS humor, do you really want to be one of them? Or even better, do you wanna be one of those hypocrites that thinks some bullying is fine but once race is involved it is not OK anymore?



I haven't in my adult life laughed at a "joke" that is on anyone present's expense. Secondly, you can't guarantee anything you know nothing about.



Wow, you're funny.. I almost laugh if I tickle myself a little while reading. It means that I say what I feel needs to be said without regards to whether it will annoy anyone or not.
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Humor is subjective. That's a fact. You can't possibly argue that it isn't, just as you can't argue what is the best flavour of ice cream.
I never mentioned bullying.

I didn't say laugh. You don't need to laugh at a joke in order to find it humorous. You can look around and make sure everyone is laughing before you decide to let out a laugh but the only reason you did so was because you found it humorous to begin with.
I guess it's ok to laugh if the target is not present then?

My claim wasn't just limited to people present either. I can guarantee you have found jokes funny which others, wherever they are, will have found offensive. I have. Pretty much everyone has. You have. There's always a group of people who find a joke offensive. There are tons of jokes which are centred on religion, sex, colour, weight etc. etc. which are humorous without being cruel or discriminatory.
 
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Godotelli said:
Humor is subjective. That's a fact. You can't possibly argue that it isn't, just as you can't argue what is the best flavour of ice cream.
I never mentioned bullying.
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You know, a quadratic square is also a rectangle but you call it a quadratic square all the same because that's the most specific description.

Besides, what's fun is subjective, but humor isn't subjective. That's why we have bad humor, good humor (subjective) black humor, British humor and so on. Stand up comedians in general has blurred the line between bullying, harassment and humor but the fact remains that there's a clear difference between the two and from the looks of it you're not sure which is what.

Godotelli said:
I can guarantee you have found jokes funny which others, wherever they are, will have found offensive.
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You can make an assumption and you would probably be right, but you can't guarantee anything of the sort. In fact you insult the meaning of the word by using it lightly.
 
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ZeroTheHero said:
You know, a quadratic square is also a rectangle but you call it a quadratic square all the same because that's the most specific description.

Besides, what's fun is subjective, but humor isn't subjective. That's why we have bad humor, good humor (subjective) black humor, British humor and so on. Stand up comedians in general has blurred the line between bullying, harassment and humor but the fact remains that there's a clear difference between the two and from the looks of it you're not sure which is what.



You can make an assumption and you would probably be right, but you can't guarantee anything of the sort. In fact you insult the meaning of the word by using it lightly.
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So fun is subjective but humor isn't? err... So what is the difference between finding X fun or not fun and Y humorous or not humorous? Both are dependent upon the mind (the subject). Splitting different tendencies of humor into categories is no different to splitting fun activities into different sports, crafts etc. We're all subject to being influenced by our environments, that's all that creates the different (vague) categories of comedy. That and market practicality, advertisement etc. People in different places, ages etc. overall tend to share vaguely similar senses of humor because they tend to share similar experiences.
I don't think you understand what subjective means. That or you just can't admit you're wrong.

You say that comedy and bullying has been blurred but that there's a clear difference between the two. It obviously depends on what the act is as to whether it's clear or not.

I insult the word but I was right anyway? That's fine. I can live with that but I do wonder why you decided to make a point of that whilst cutting out the more relevant points I made. I'll take it that you agreed then.

PS. Feel free to explain the relevance of the square btw.
 
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Can't you two discuss this in PM's. This is the Spurs thread and your discussion has nothing to see with Spurs.

Mods: feel free to remove this post, because in the end this is also off-topic...
 
Godotelli said:
PS. Feel free to explain the relevance of the square btw.
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It should be obvious. You were insistent that racial slur jokes for example is humor, then I countered with the square example. A square is (at least) two things, but the most specific description is a square. Parts of bullying, racial or not, may be considered part of humor by some (you obviously) but I prefer to call it by its right name, bullying.

I intentionally left it unexplained there to see if you caught on because it's a very common allusion that's been in use since ~490 B.C.
 
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Zero just stick to your points and everything is ok, when you try to belittle people by correcting their spelling, saying they don't understand stuff etc etc it just makes you sound stupid and I know you want to sound intellectual and condescend people, it seems like it is you mission in life.

Being condescending, saying people don't understand and questioning their intelligence, twisting peoples words can also be construed as bullying.....it's subjective :DD and I know you want to take the moral high ground, but with your attitude it just isn't working.

You give people with a correctly working moral compass a bad name.

Really, I know you aren't going to listen, but you can have a discussion without attacking people and getting defensive all of the time.
 
After hearing about the way a certain faction (we'll call them the 'Arry sycophants) have been treating AVB, I'm now firmly in the camp that hopes he f*cking wins the treble.

The media have their collective panties in a twist because AVB stood up to a hack from the Daily Mail. I listen to a bunch of podcasts, and you wouldn't believe the reactions from the scum in the media. They're so annoyed that a football manager would dare stand up to them. It's shocking.

Bunch of self-important, talentless parasites that try to use the talent of people like AVB to make themselves a living. They disgust me.

So go on AVB, show them what an actual talented professional can do with a career.

/rant over
 
beachryan said:
After hearing about the way a certain faction (we'll call them the 'Arry sycophants) have been treating AVB, I'm now firmly in the camp that hopes he f*cking wins the treble.

The media have their collective panties in a twist because AVB stood up to a hack from the Daily Mail. I listen to a bunch of podcasts, and you wouldn't believe the reactions from the scum in the media. They're so annoyed that a football manager would dare stand up to them. It's shocking.

Bunch of self-important, talentless parasites that try to use the talent of people like AVB to make themselves a living. They disgust me.

So go on AVB, show them what an actual talented professional can do with a career.

/rant over
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I just wanted to post something similar...couldn't agree more.
The press and the (some) fans are the problem.
What did the fans expect ? To have a team that would immediately gel and become champions and win the Euro League or the FA Cup ?
At the moment it seems that quite a lot of new players are taking an exceptionally long time to get used to the EPL. Things like that happen...
Give players like Lamela, and Soldado the time to get used to English football.
I listen to the Spurs podcast, boy they really are something.
One week Lloris is the best GK in the world (literally) and the next one he is useless.
After the match against Everton, they said Vertonghen should always play left back instead of CB. After the City match they criticize AVB because he plays Vertonghen at left back and because Disco Bennie was loaned out to QPR (i tend to agree with that last opinion by the way).
What Spurs need is patience...

By the way Beach what are your thoughts on the penalty (Wellbeck/Lloris) ?
IMO Lloris made a mistake and i know quite a lot of refs would have given the penalty. I tend to agree with the decision, but i'm not sure if it wasn't Wellbeck that went for the contact...

Oh and IMO the draw was a logical result, Man Utd didn't deserve to loose that match.
 
I think the penalty was one of those annoying fouls that probably could/should be a direct free kick, but not a penalty. In that, Welbeck was first to the ball, and was prevented from reaching it by Lloris. Had Lloris not gone to ground, Welbeck would have gotten the ball. And that is regardless of if Llrois touches him or not. The keeper's dive essentially obstructs Welbeck regardless of the contact. Same reason a defender can't just run in front of an attacker and stand still to stop them.

Put another way, if Welbeck had contorted his body to avoid Llrois, he wouldn't have been able to get the ball. So it's still a foul. Llrois should have just stood up and faced Welbeck - God knows his finishing is so poor chances would have been better!

Didn't think either team was very good to be honest. Real lack of quality in the final third. As always Lennon has Evra's number, but end product was weak. United were overrun in midfield, but Spurs weren't really brave enough to capitalise on it.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
It should be obvious. You were insistent that racial slur jokes for example is humor, then I countered with the square example. A square is (at least) two things, but the most specific description is a square. Parts of bullying, racial or not, may be considered part of humor by some (you obviously) but I prefer to call it by its right name, bullying.

I intentionally left it unexplained there to see if you caught on because it's a very common allusion that's been in use since ~490 B.C.
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I'm sorry but playing silly little games with squares does not disprove the fact that humor is subjective.
 
beachryan said:
After hearing about the way a certain faction (we'll call them the 'Arry sycophants) have been treating AVB, I'm now firmly in the camp that hopes he f*cking wins the treble.

The media have their collective panties in a twist because AVB stood up to a hack from the Daily Mail. I listen to a bunch of podcasts, and you wouldn't believe the reactions from the scum in the media. They're so annoyed that a football manager would dare stand up to them. It's shocking.

Bunch of self-important, talentless parasites that try to use the talent of people like AVB to make themselves a living. They disgust me.

So go on AVB, show them what an actual talented professional can do with a career.

/rant over
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Agreed (tho by treble you mean the Capital One, FA Cup and Europa, right?)

No-one knows who these hacks are until they manufacture some time in the 'limelight'
 
I don't think you are feeling sorry for anyone but yourself considering the obvious emotion you put into your arguments, all of which you've been forced to concede. :SMUG:
 
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