The Retro-PES Corner

[PeterC10]

Ok it's 65.57 to be exact across all 4216 players! A high of 84 and a low of 45 (ouch) Median is 66.

actually that's stamina! will get mentality now

I meant to ask for stamina actually so all good. 😅

But yeah as mentality is closed linked it would be good to know that too.

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10 Edited above in case you didn't spot it

 

[PeterC10]

Just reading through the attributes on the PES 6 expert guide (www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1903511941/) - I actually got this last year but didn't get round to really checking it out. For aggression it says "This value dictates how likely a player is to run forward to join an attack. A player with low Aggression rating will be more inclined to stick to his assigned position in a formation." I always assumed that was to do with how likely a player was to press and win the ball back! I suppose for players in the #10 or false nine role a low value here could be good so that they are going deep to get the ball?

It also says that abilities from 95-99 represent a much greater leap in prowess. So from 95 to 96 is a bigger leap than say, 89 to 90.

Probably this is common knowledge to a lot of people on this thread but I've learned something new.

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10 Yeah it does say in the in game editing when you edit the abilities that.. "The higher this value the more aggressively the player will attack." So a high total would be good for attacking full backs like Alexander-Arnold as well.

Thinking about it, I've never tested it but setting an entire team with really low aggression with say a 5-4-1 and a defence setting could get a parking the bus outcome!

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid do you know any combination of stats that makes a player more likely to make reckless tackles/fouls? I guess the team mentality setting might play a part in this, and how badly the player feels it needs to win the ball back.

Luckily in PES 6 there are plenty of tackles and fouls by the CPU anyway, in about 10 test matches last night I had 2 red cards (one for two yellows) and a penalty which would never happen in modern day PES.

 

[Damjan]

The bit about the aggression stat is interesting @PeterC10 Perhaps it could help in having CBs coming up for dead ball situations but I reckon that's wishful thinking.

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10 I'm not entirely certain but we found in testing we were getting a lot in most matches in Amador, enough that it made Miguel comment that it felt more like playing PES5/WE9. I'm convinced that is because of the low BAL stat the players had. I think it leads to more players going to ground in collision tackles and aerial challenges, leading to the ref giving more fouls. We came to the conclusion that perhaps they had raised the threshold of the Balance stat to lower fouls in PES6 compared to PES5/WE9 and that the low Balance of Amador was putting it back in the PES5 range. Might be totally wrong on that but that was the way it seemed.

I would also think the low mentality/stamina would lead to more with players making tired challenges later on. I remember quite a few times seeing the FB hack down the winger when they went past with no intention of chasing him back! This was the AI on me.

We regularly had game stats like this....

https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/amador-everyones-football.79300/page-4#post-3310744

https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/amador-everyones-football.79300/page-4#post-3311241

https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/amador-everyones-football.79300/page-6#post-3311850

and then two yellows for an AI player against me in 27 mins! https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/amador-everyones-football.79300/#post-3307006

So some mix of those three stats must lead to more fouls (possibly low DEF too might have a bearing?)

 

[mattmid]

The bit about the aggression stat is interesting @PeterC10 Perhaps it could help in having CBs coming up for dead ball situations but I reckon that's wishful thinking.

Would be nice wouldn't it. I remember reading in the PES5 guide that they took away the defenders coming up because people complained the AI was scoring on them on counter attacks! Why did they listen to them? And why take away the option?

 

[Tinker]

Regarding Balance and fouls connection. I also think lower balance leads to more fouls, or even, higher differences in balance leads to "weaker" players going down easier.

Alex gameplay, one of the best stat edits for PES6, has the following formula for Balance: they subtract 30 for all players and then raise by different ammounts for each position by strenght, i.e. GKs and CBs get +20 (in the end its still lower than default), while AMs and forwards get 0 (again, not ideal for powerful forwards, so there I gave CF's +5 or +10). Might be also due to other adjustments (such as Acceleration being from 1 to 15 something), but number of fouls using these edits is noticeably higher compared to default.

In general, I believe reduction of stats makes the gameplay better, at least in Pes6. After reading about Amador, I took WC98 option file and reduced all stats for all players by 10. Liked the result a lot - action it's somewhat slower, more considered, players make more errors and in general play in a more human, less robotic way. Only stats I think thats not needed are FK Accuracy and Stamina, that diminishes slightly too fast for my liking. SuperData patch that i tried some time ago also uses lower stats by default and that results in a nice balanced gameplay.

Think also patches like Amador or my own testing prove that we shouldn't be afraid of lowering stats in order to bring these games closer to simulation. I remember Matt's formula for PES6 that involved setting Technique to 10 (!) for all players. Not a fan of unifying every player this way, but that resulted in, I'd say, nice feel on the ball - bad controls, bouncing off players, difficulty trapping etc. - but nothing that would feel game-breaking.

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid never knew there was an option for CBs coming up before PES 5, so frustrating that they took that out! Just make it optional and off by default... Konami are frustrating.

@Damjan I think there could very well be a connection. In my custom league I ran on another forum (AI vs AI but human managers) we definitely had defenders scoring from corners, I'm looking back at some of the player statistics (goals scored, not attributes) and it was usually the same centre back who scored, and as I likely used higher aggression for the better defenders this inadvertently seems to have put them up! Similar story for full backs, it seems the ones with higher aggression also scored more and most of their goals would have been from set pieces.

Also as said earlier in the thread we used the standard team mentality as defensive, attacking as default and the all out attack as it was, the main reason behind this was to get higher scoring games, but fortunately it helped with this too! Would have been annoying to have defenders never scoring.

Found a perfect example, below are a couple of screenshots from a match where the home team won 2-1 with a late headed goal by the centre back, this was a live streamed match so I half-remember it, even though it was played almost 7 years ago! 🤣

Note that I had the resolution very low to help with streaming and also file sizes of screenshots as I took a fair few throughout the game and then uploaded it to Google Photos. It also means the screenshots are JPEGs which isn't ideal, but it does mean I have an archive of Google of some past games.

Spoiler

I've also found some discussions about how to get around it by altering mentality just for your corner, and changing the corner taker and then back to reset the pitch and get your defenders up. Not ideal but some sort of workaround for the human player at least. Can also switch between formations which puts a centre back as striker.

 

[PeterC10]

@Tinker I think balance is closely tied with weight too. I remember trying out players with very low weight and they go down very easily but usually don't get a foul, so maybe balance is the deciding factor for ability to win fouls.

Interesting observations, there are certain things I have tried but stuff like putting technique down to 10 for all is certainly not one of them! One good thing about having a CSV import option is that we can play around with the stats much more easily.

Regarding freekicks this is the only thing that really annoyed me when running my custom league, there were barely every any freekick goals! Freekick is closely tied with swerve, with swerve deciding how well a player can bring the ball back down after clearing the wall. These stats in general should be very high for the set piece specialists I'd say.

 

[Tinker]

@Tinker One good thing about having a CSV import option is that we can play around with the stats much more easily.

How does that work, @PeterC10 ? Is it with PES6 Editor? Heard about it, but never had chance to try.

Regarding freekicks this is the only thing that really annoyed me when running my custom league, there were barely every any freekick goals! Freekick is closely tied with swerve, with swerve deciding how well a player can bring the ball back down after clearing the wall. These stats in general should be very high for the set piece specialists I'd say.

Yes, Alex gameplay that I mentioned before had big increments for these two as well.

 

[PeterC10]

How does that work, @PeterC10 ? Is it with PES6 Editor? Heard about it, but never had chance to try.

A couple of years ago juce released the source code for a version of the PES Fan Editor that included a CSV import, the old editor always had an export but no import option. I took juce's code as a base to work on and from there made various changes such as being able to import players by ID rather than needing them listed in ID order with all players present, being able to import with the columns in any order etc. But most importantly I was keen for all player options to be editable by CSV, so this included skin colour, hair styles right down to accessories such as wristbands. And also for some quite importantly, growth types.

You can find the download link on https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/pes-e...port-latest-version-6-0-7-0-21-04-2020.79986/ - you just open the editor, make a CSV file, make any changes you want then re-import it.

 

[Tinker]

A couple of years ago juce released the source code for a version of the PES Fan Editor that included a CSV import, the old editor always had an export but no import option. I took juce's code as a base to work on and from there made various changes such as being able to import players by ID rather than needing them listed in ID order with all players present, being able to import with the columns in any order etc. But most importantly I was keen for all player options to be editable by CSV, so this included skin colour, hair styles right down to accessories such as wristbands. And also for some quite importantly, growth types.

You can find the download link on https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/pes-e...port-latest-version-6-0-7-0-21-04-2020.79986/ - you just open the editor, make a CSV file, make any changes you want then re-import it.

That sounds great! I know there was an option to export csv, but didnt know that we can import now as well. Will try it today,

 

[mattmid]

Only stats I think thats not needed are FK Accuracy and Stamina, that diminishes slightly too fast for my liking. SuperData patch that i tried some time ago also uses lower stats by default and that results in a nice balanced gameplay.

For accumulated fatigues games I totally agree that lower stamina causes a problem as PES is very harsh with that and you have players who can't play two games in a row which is just silly. For exhibition or if you choose no accumulated fatigue then I think low stamina comes into its own because it effects things within a single match much better.

I remember Matt's formula for PES6 that involved setting Technique to 10 (!) for all players. Not a fan of unifying every player this way, but that resulted in, I'd say, nice feel on the ball - bad controls, bouncing off players, difficulty trapping etc. - but nothing that would feel game-breaking.

Now that I'd like to see, was that Matt10?

@Damjan I think there could very well be a connection. In my custom league I ran on another forum (AI vs AI but human managers) we definitely had defenders scoring from corners, I'm looking back at some of the player statistics (goals scored, not attributes) and it was usually the same centre back who scored, and as I likely used higher aggression for the better defenders this inadvertently seems to have put them up! Similar story for full backs, it seems the ones with higher aggression also scored more and most of their goals would have been from set pieces.

Ah I just remembered that, if you pause at a corner and put your attack up to all out attack the defenders do come up, so that must be why you had them scoring with all out attack being used.



As for free kicks I guess what would make sense is to give a couple of players high stats in FK and Swerve who regularly take the free kicks for their clubs and set all the others low which will ensure the Ai never uses them and that the good ones it does use have a chance of scoring.

Oh and when it's really low you sometimes get a missed kick type free kick that goes up in high in the air and about 5-10yds forward I saw that a few times on the Amador file.

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid yeah the game is great at representing some less then well struck shots or passes. On the subject of freekicks I remember running into strange bug that I've only seen happen once. A team had a freekick in their own half, but as an opposition player was running into position he knocked the ball, and the game carried on! Closest thing I can think of in real life was that goal Liverpool scored against Sunderland when Sunderland were deemed to have taken the freekick:



Sadly nothing came of this in my game, would have been fun to include on a match report.

 

[Tinker]

Now that I'd like to see, was that Matt10?

Yeah, Matt10.

But you can try with PES editor (although that formula had more of other edits as well..)

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10 Ah yes I remember that! All we need now is the beach ball on the pitch deflecting one in.

Yes it's what they seem to have taken away bit by bit, all the player uniqueness that the stats gave. Ironically they now have player cards/styles to represent what they had perfectly represented before because presumably they can't with the stats left!

One thing I'm always big on in OF's is weak foot and frequency because PES represents it so well or at least did, not sure now. It also leads to some great missed kicks where a player has no choice but to use their weak foot, I've had keepers get that back pass that the AI plays almost on the goal line when it's out wide and they've sliced it off the weak foot for a corner or scuffed a miskicked clearance into danger.

 

[miguelfcp]

Very interesting discussions here, it's a joy to read.
About the aggression stat, your conversation reminds me of something I meant to say here a few days ago: the effect of high Aggression on...keepers. Yes, naturally the vast majority of them have very low values on this setting but there's a few rule-breakers like Porto's Vitor Baía. On my PES5 ML I've recently played against a team with such a keeper, can't remember who it was. Interestingly, that CPU-controlled individual started doing things I don't think I've ever seen any do on retro-PES games. On a few occasions, his team was building up play from the back using the CBs. He comes a bit forward and is passed the ball, the CBs widen, and he dribbles it forward quite a bit until he's far away from his own box. I then apply pressure and of course, he passes it. A Libero Goalkeeper before it was cool! I wonder whether high Aggression on keepers may have something to do with how eccentric they are; a low AGG keeper must be more offensively conservative.

About defenders coming up for corners/free kicks, before the ball goes out/after the foul is called, I use the L2+R1 combo to raise the team's mentality to the highest setting (red) and at least the tallest CB always goes up, as well as sometimes a tall DMF. Sometimes even sidebacks; I've been playing Espimas as a RB and he always goes up. I don't know what is the criteria here, if it's the players' height or Header Accuracy (or both?), but I suspect it is the former...
Plus, say you've raised the team's attacking mentality before a corner; even those defenders will not be on the box right away; if you pull the camera away from the box you'll see them slowly arriving...that's why I don't even bother setting the free/corner kick takers anymore; I know I'll manually have to switch it in real time if I don't want to wait for those defenders to get to the box - because if you switch it, they'll already be there as you guys mentioned.

Regarding the "secret" behind fouls on Amador, @mattmid already "pulled the veil" and though I agree with what he said, we could go even further: all of the lower stats create the opportunity for more fouls. Then, of course, low balance is key. Lower stats make the game more chaotic, unpredictable and much slower paced. Then, inevitably, you'll have more physical contacts, more fouls. This is why modern PES and FIFA struggle on this area, by the way. The other day I caught a bit of some eFootball competition (FIFA) and the real players were so skilled, as well as the virtual ones too, that even if you wanted to commit a foul you wouldn't be able to, because not only everything happens at such a high pace, the players can always skillfully evade opponents. Then the game becomes a kind of Football Harlem Globetrotters spectacle where each player when he has the ball does something cutesy before passing it to the next who'll do another cutesy bit and there you have it, a sterile battle which looks nothing like actual football.

--
EDIT: On a completely unrelated matter, playing Zamenhof up front allowed me to hear the Spanish commentator say his name for the first time ever - was it after PES2 that the commentators no longer said the names of keepers? -; apparently, he thinks Zamenhof is..."Zamunkov". Poor guy, can't get a break can he? Not even his name is pronounced correctly...

 

[PeterC10]

@miguelfcp the more I think about it the more I'm sure aggression is the primary factor for who goes up for corners, checking the OF with players from the league I ran. There was nothing really scientific about their stats at all, and in general the stats were too high but the defenders with the most goals (and from memory that I remember scoring from set pieces fairly regularly for defenders) were the ones with higher aggression values. Is it only ever all out attack that gets defenders up for corners? Does the attacking mentality ever lead to this also? There is also a CB overlap strategy so maybe that gets included too. But it's Konami who really knows...

 

[Marlon Anthony]

About defenders coming up for corners/free kicks, before the ball goes out/after the foul is called, I use the L2+R1 combo to raise the team's mentality to the highest setting (red) and at least the tallest CB always goes up, as well as sometimes a tall DMF. Sometimes even sidebacks; I've been playing Espimas as a RB and he always goes up. I don't know what is the criteria here, if it's the players' height or Header Accuracy (or both?), but I suspect it is the former...
Plus, say you've raised the team's attacking mentality before a corner; even those defenders will not be on the box right away; if you pull the camera away from the box you'll see them slowly arriving...that's why I don't even bother setting the free/corner kick takers anymore; I know I'll manually have to switch it in real time if I don't want to wait for those defenders to get to the box - because if you switch it, they'll already be there as you guys mentioned.

It's actually kind of remarkable that this is a part of football that took Konami a very long time to implement accurately, It wasn't until PES 2010 i think when you could actually assign 3 defenders to go forward for corners in the formation settings, But even then it wouldn't work correctly.

Nowadays on modern PES you raise the mentality to it's highest when your chasing the game, The game assumes you actually want to go into "nothing to lose mode and it throws literally everyone up there including your keeper which means your gaping wide open for a counter as we all know, Scoring from corners is very difficult nowadays - Both in real life and the game.

There's times on Retro PES where you've got medium to high attacking bias and you've still got barely 2 players in the box! Sometimes changing the kick taker kind of resets the set piece and the rest of your team spawn there.

I'll digress a little bit too. When i was younger and had all the free time in the world, I dreamed of a football game where everything was in real time - No black screens. Ball goes out of play? Ball boy is on hand. Set piece? Wait for a player to pick up the ball set it and squabble with team mates abot who's taking it while the wall tries to get it's shit together. Ahh how immersive i thought, And we got it with FIFA on this gen and PES started implementing dynamic throw-ins on PES 2011 which was cool...

But then i realised what if the game bugs out and a player is locked in an animation cycle? Happened to me god knows how many times on FIFA which caused classic matches to be restarted & lost to mere memory.

 

[PeterC10]

Something I just checked in exhibition mode, the AI team will use the full range of mentalities. In the last 10 minutes the team who were losing 1-0 were switching between attacking and all out attack, and the winning team were all out defence by the end. This shows the AI is committed to trying to win or protect the result in exhibition mode, which is what we need if we're going to try and get a simulation running outside of PES and just using PES for the matches.

Also it means the AI team will sometimes have defenders going up for corners, although not as much as it should but not sure if there's much we can do about this, short of finding the memory addresses for mentality and corners/freekicks and making some script to temporarily set the attacking team to all out attack.

 

[Madmac79]

The discussion is indeed really interesting, although unfortunately I'm not very familiar with that kind of editing.

If anything you guys make me fantasize about blending Pes with a proper Managerial game via OF. I guess it isn't entirely out of the realm of possibilities?

@MafiaMurderBag Kceo Perfect Eleven/ ISS used to not have black screens for the most. Maybe just after an injury or a red card if my memory serves me well, but for the rest (free kicks, corners, throw ins etc.) it was all real time. Maybe you already knew

 

[PeterC10]

@Madmac79 that's basically what the ultimate goal is, we have the means to do it, but need to build the tools... if that makes sense. Also various algorithms will have to be worked out, from how much stamina to dock from a player after he's played a certain amount of consecutive matches, to how to generate realistic new youth players.

One part that particularly excites me is that we could have an unlimited amount of teams with this tool. We would just need some placeholder teams in the main OF, and this tool can overwrite these teams with others that it has in its own database. As the idea (so far) is for all matches to be played in exhibition mode with the changes to OF adding context, all the user needs is the teams for the next match. So you could draw Crawley Town in the FA cup, the tool will overwrite a team in the OF with Crawley Town, and also update the kitserver kit files, player boots, faces etc, all the player has to do is reload the OF in-game (not sure how kitserver works with reloading, but worse case would just need to restart the game).

 

[mattmid]

I'll digress a little bit too. When i was younger and had all the free time in the world, I dreamed of a football game where everything was in real time - No black screens. Ball goes out of play? Ball boy is on hand. Set piece? Wait for a player to pick up the ball set it and squabble with team mates abot who's taking it while the wall tries to get it's shit together. Ahh how immersive i thought, And we got it with FIFA on this gen and PES started implementing dynamic throw-ins on PES 2011 which was cool...

That would be great until you play a Lge 1 or 2 match and some bastard away team spend half the match wasting time! As I have found out these last few years!

Something I just checked in exhibition mode, the AI team will use the full range of mentalities. In the last 10 minutes the team who were losing 1-0 were switching between attacking and all out attack, and the winning team were all out defence by the end. This shows the AI is committed to trying to win or protect the result in exhibition mode, which is what we need if we're going to try and get a simulation running outside of PES and just using PES for the matches.

That's good to know. If I recall correctly I think the AI uses three based on what it is set to. So one above and below, or two below or above if it's on the bottom or top end, so if it was on the top (5) it would use 3 and 4 as well. Now I've typed that I wonder if I'm making that up or not! Maybe you can check when you're testing. I sure I noticed that when I was doing the Youth league, that it only used three settings around it's pre game setting.

One part that particularly excites me is that we could have an unlimited amount of teams with this tool. We would just need some placeholder teams in the main OF, and this tool can overwrite these teams with others that it has in its own database.

Glad you just wrote that, it's reminded me of something to ask if it's possible to do in the csv import because currently you can not import team names you have to change them in the editor first. That said I haven't checked the latest version yet so apologies if you can do that now.

 

[PeterC10]

Glad you just wrote that, it's reminded me of something to ask if it's possible to do in the csv import because currently you can not import team names you have to change them in the editor first. That said I haven't checked the latest version yet so apologies if you can do that now.

No at the moment the CSV import is only for players, the club/nationality names are just so the editor can assign them to the right ones. That area needs a fair bit of work though, I put in tickboxes so that team squads don't get updated if you're just uploading a selection of players, before it would end up with a load of free agents. Long term I think the option to specify the team by ID could be useful, but in terms of editing team details this would probably be easier with a separate CSV import option.

Anything that can be edited in the editor should be possible via CSV though.

Also as mentioned briefly before in the thread, we should be able to cater for team logos too. The editor lets you managed logos on the OF, so we should be able to adapt this to other tools as well.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

That would be great until you play a Lge 1 or 2 match and some bastard away team spend half the match wasting time! As I have found out these last few years!

Haha funnily enough it was something else i considered when i fantasised about a real time clock that didn't pause during breaks too. It was something we got in recent years in both franchises but it's only truly effective when playing significantly longer matches, So 3 minutes of in game stoppage time really does at least feel like a minute & a half.

When i was a kid and in the phase of trying to replicate everything i saw on TV, I would make "strategic" substitutions, Pointlessly bringing on a sub for 10 seconds "to waste time" in added time. Of course it didn't do anything but it was a minor ritual thing i did in my Master League amongst other things like playing reserves in cup games and literally having a gameplan of when i would bring certain players on during a game like a real manager would until i conceded and early goal or a red card and it threw my plans out of the window haha.

 

[Saint Angelo]

Guys,

Any good tips on getting PES 5/6 to run on new machines? Using sany's installer, all's good but framerate's kinda choppy. I5 gtx 1050 so I mean, has to be settings and stuff.

Any ideas appreciated.

 

[MadbaLL]

dx8 to dx9 converter on enbdev.

 

[Saint Angelo]

@MadbaLL what an absolute legend works like a charm right away first try!!!

It occurs to me that Phoenix 11/12 was the first one I played so its time to try 10/11 version. 60 fps, 1080p, 4k internal resolution, holy shit we are living life here!!!

This game is about 15 years old btw.