The Retro-PES Corner

[geeeeee]

@miguelfcp oh man that’s not good regarding no offers for the defaults. What transfer setting was it on?

I checked my Leeds save (i was using their squad) to see if any team had bought the defaults in that one, once they became available. It was only Ivarov who was actually playing for someone, i think it was Lazio or something. All the other ones had no club.

When i eventually start a proper ML i may actually go for a proper team because it would bug me if i built Ordaz up and then no one actually came in for him. Not that I would sell him but it adds to the realism. In my Leeds ML when i had offers for Traore from Man City, and Real Madrid, it seemed quite realistic and added another dimension to the game and even the emotional side of it, knowing that our best player for just one season would be moving on.

Ivarov is actually quite good in my ‘Defaults‘ ML apart from the rare fantastically executed back of the hand spinner into the net type of own goals.

 

[miguelfcp]

@geeeeee: I can't remember the PES08 PS2 transfer settings, is it a "frequency" setting? If so, I always put it on "normal".

Not only I didn't get any offers for the Defaults, you might remember I was only "allowed" to buy newgens, and I didn't get any offers for those either. Most of them evolved to become actual world-class players even...I wonder whether only the fake, Konami-invented players won't be chased by the CPU...

 

[PeterC10]

Not sure where best to ask but this seems as good a place as any.

PES 6 Player Generator

I've now got my PES6 OF editor to the point where it can import/export all player attributes (except for call names) including appearance info, accessories etc. My long term goal for this was to actually make another tool that can generate a squad of players ready to be imported into PES 6. It could take certain parameters such as what the main nationality should be, overall strength etc. With appearance info this would take quite a bit of work (makes players look a certain way depending on nationality, make certain attributes stronger depending on position etc) but all it would need to do is generate a realistic looking player, and tweaking a player ingame would be minimal work.

However I think the real sticking point would be how to generate the attributes. The following video got linked on my editor thread, but deleted for some reason:


This generates an overall value based on the player attributes (haven't checked out the formula yet but seems to link the player attribute to certain stats). I tried it out with the vanilla PES 6 OF and the overalls seems reasonable enough, so potentially would I could do is generate the appearance of the player, then keep generating random attributes until it got to a reasonable overall value. Has anyone used this or anything similar before? I know the overall value for player ability isn't the be all and end all, and the likes of FIFA have to use it to keep Messi the highest rated player.

Secondly, I haven't experimented much with PES 6 player stats for a long time. When I was running my custom PES league I just had attacking values higher than defending in general to allow for more goals and teamwork set to 99 for all players to get the teams playing some better football. If anyone has more specific info on certain attributes (maybe heading is overpowered for example and should be toned down in general), or any good reading material please let me know!

Sorry for the long post!

 

[geeeeee]

@miguelfcp the transfer frequency has 3 settings, and i lean towards the highest one. I have seen the CPU buy the ‘ML Young’ players.

Hmm i was actually considering copying the Default ML players onto other players and then changing the names of the original Default ML players. Then start a new ML with a custom team and pick the Copied Default ML players. That way i guess they would get offers, but then with Konami you never know. I just want to make sure that when I start my ML that everything is in good working order as I want to take it seriously (keeping track of scores, videos, etc...). I would be a bit peeved if after 5 seasons I haven't had any offers and i would have to go back and start again.

@PeterC10 that is excellent work! I don’t play PES6 but I wonder if it will work on PES2008 the PS2 version as the editor is pretty much the same.

I will find the adjustments I made to PES5 which made the CPU play much better. I will post for you soon, you may want to make similar adjstments.

 

[geeeeee]

Hi @PeterC10 the adjustments are in this quote. They helped me get a few more years out of PES5. It may help PES6 too.

Ok here is what i changed,

ALL PLAYERS

Spoiler

TOP SPEED = -5
ACCELERATION = -5
RESPONSE = +5
AGILITY = -30 (apart from goalkeepers)
DRIBBLE ACC = -5
DRIBBLE SPEED = -5
SHORT PASSING ACC = +10
SHORT PASSING SP = -15
LONG PASSING ACC = +10
LONG PASSING SP = -15
HEADER = +10
TECHNIQUE = +5
MENTALITY = +5
TEAM WORK = +15

THEN IN ADDITION

GK

Spoiler

STAMINA = +15
GOALKEEPING SKILLS = -7

CB/CWP/DMF

Spoiler

DEFENCE = +5
STAMINA = +5
AGGRESSION = -5

SB/WB

Spoiler

DEFENCE = +5
STAMINA = +10
AGGRESSION = -5

CMF/SMF/WF

Spoiler

STAMINA = +5

AMF/SS/CF

Spoiler

STAMINA = +5
SHOT ACCURACY = +5
SHOT TECHNIQUE = +5

I change the stats depending on the player's REGISTERED position not all their positions. They are based on pesstatsdatabase stats

I also gave all players INJURY 'B' setting.

And gave them less playable positions so that the CPU will pick a more realistic team

Like i said in the first post thanks to Chimps (stat ideas from old and new pesgaming.com forums), Klashmann (formation ideas on pesgaming.com),El Pajaro (for reduced ability idea) pesstatsdatabase (for other stats), footballsquads.co.uk (for squads)

Hope this helps.

 

[PeterC10]

@geeeeee great, thank you!

Sadly I never had PES 2008 on PS2, thought PES in the PS3 era would be the dawning of an amazing new generation in football games. Best not bring that topic up again...

 

[Fabri55]

Hello guys, my pes 5 patch is now availabile.
If you want, take a look
https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/pes-5...abri55-and-andregranata91.81749/#post-3519576

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10 Never knew that tool existed! Interesting stuff, particularly as it seemed to generate the players you'd expect to be at the top. Maybe for your tool the OVR could be a figure to work back from to create the other stats? Perhaps have different types as well such as a box to box midfielder formula would be different to a playmaker type formula so that different stats are higher, ie passing, technique for the playmaker, where as stamina, mentality etc higher for the other.

As to which stats, there's many answers to that and I don't think any one is the definitive answer. I've had OF's where the top speed is between 10-30 and other's normal and they both play differently but I couldn't say one was better than the other, just different. Perhaps the beauty of how the PES stats worked so well is that you can have both ends of ability such as a World Cup with the best players and the likes of an Amador with a bunch of relative sunday league player stats in comparison and both work well despite being and playing totally different. The key is to be consistent across the whole OF so the teams are balanced.

I always thought teamwork needed to be high, yet Amador seems to show it doesn't necessarily have to be. It was one of things I wondered about but I guess it's the balance of the weaker stats elsewhere that make it not so important as the players on the other team are no better.

Then another thing I stumbled across that I added to Amador was dribbling speed of 99. It had always bugged me playing the AI that because it likes to dribble, it dawdles so much allowing us the player with our manic pressing game to steal the ball. I thought ok lets test 99 for dribbling speed and it worked really well, it made the AI appear much more decisive and my biggest fear that it would help the human player doesn't actually bear out.

As you mentioned ATT certainly improves them too, stick everyone on one team on 99 and play against them and you'll know about it!

I suppose I haven't really answered the question in the end but I'm not sure there is an exact answer, there's lots of different one's, all valid.

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid yeah very true, it's going to be down to preference a lot! It probably needs a place for further discussion/research somewhere. Another thing is that you probably need two sets of stats. One for if you want to simulate matches (in my league users of a forum owned/managed their clubs, so team was user managed but the actual football was always CPU vs CPU) and one for if you actually want to play the game which is what Konami intended.

One mistake I made when doing my league was making the weak players too weak across the board. A top striker in league two for example should have decent finishing stats, but then be lacking in other areas. This is something I think Football Manager does pretty well, never really checked out how FIFA went about it though.

Will go try that dribble speed, thanks for the tip! I know some stats are poorly translated, so I think playing around with these speed ones is a good starting point. Regarding teamwork I just got annoyed in the first few weeks of my league with how many times players just seemed to be running the ball out of play, chipping the ball out for a goal kick over and over again, didn't fancy being too scientific about it so just slapped it to 99 across the board.

Now we are close to being able to easily manipulate PES 6 OF (and hopefully other versions in future) there is some real potential to get more out of this game. The other day it came to my mind that in theory you could run a PES 6 season outside of the game, having a program controlling the OF. It generates fixtures for you which you play in PES, after you put in the result you can click to progress like you would in football manager. Then this program could reduce the fitness/stamina of players you have played for 10 games in a row, randomly generate injuries for players, pick the opposition lineup etc... Something like this would take a long time but definitely possible!

 

[Special4988]

@geeeeee Something I am noticing in my ML in PES 2008 is during the summer break it seemed there was some teams decided to not re-sign players, or flat out release them. 2 key players that were available in the market was Luca Modric, and Ashley Young. I find it weird that these players were let go by their respected team because they are key players. Not sure of the CPU logic here. Do they have to follow the same rules as user teams when it comes to a points budget??

A miracle happened today. My default player ML team Nighthawks won their first ever game against Bolton! This was the 3rd game in our second season. We got off to a 3-0 lead before Kevin Davies scored a just before half and then another at 85 minutes. We were just able to squeak out a 3-2 win.

 

[mattmid]

Now we are close to being able to easily manipulate PES 6 OF (and hopefully other versions in future) there is some real potential to get more out of this game. The other day it came to my mind that in theory you could run a PES 6 season outside of the game, having a program controlling the OF. It generates fixtures for you which you play in PES, after you put in the result you can click to progress like you would in football manager. Then this program could reduce the fitness/stamina of players you have played for 10 games in a row, randomly generate injuries for players, pick the opposition lineup etc... Something like this would take a long time but definitely possible!

That sounds a brilliant idea! The manager youth league we did on here I was able to reduce each team to the 18 players picked for the coming match regardless of the starting size of the OF when I began the League in PES with no problems at all other than it didn't keep check of cards, they would reset to 0 if the player was not in the side then came back - not sure about injuries as they were kept out until fit anyway. However goals and assists were correct even if a player was out injured say and not in the line up for a fixture or two. When he was back in the game 'remembered' what his stats were! Which I was really surprised about. But to have something outside controlling everything and then updating the OF would be brilliant.

I was actually thinking about manually doing something like this the other day, adjusting the OF from my excel sheet then doing an import before each round of fixtures with the updated OF for the season. Even had ideas about a system for form where they'd gain increments in their abilities based on their last five games and the total plus or minus of these on a rolling 5 game period would be the % adjustment to their stats. So for example let's say Player A had scored 2 goals in his last 5 games, 1 assist, his match ratings totalled 33 and his team had won 3 of the games and lost one. They'd scored 6 and conceded 3.

For each bit of that he'd get let's say 0.2% + or -.

Therefore for him he'd have:

2 goals (+0.4%)
1 assist (+0.2%)
3 team wins (+0.6%)
6 team goals (+1.2%)

For match ratings I'd take a 6.5 as average, so for 5 games the level would be 32.5. We'll say his total for the five games was 33.5, therefore...

Ratings +1 (+0.2%)

Form increase total = 2.6%

1 team loss (-0.2%)
3 team goals conceded (-0.6%)
could also add in a loss for any own goals

Form decrease total = -0.8%

So he would have a nett increase of 1.8% added to his stats (either all of them or just those that you chose to apply it to)

This would be applied to all players, OF adjusted by that and re imported and used for the next round of fixtures.

I then had the idea that at the end of the season you work out the entire season totals and that's the players growth (or decline) which is applied to his stats and the new stats are his base stats for next season to have a whole outside the game ML player development system.

With your idea this sort of thing could be possible to be automated once you've input the match ratings and scores.

Then you play out the games in exhibition mode with all players on Green arrows so our own form adjustments take effect and not the games.

One mistake I made when doing my league was making the weak players too weak across the board. A top striker in league two for example should have decent finishing stats, but then be lacking in other areas. This is something I think Football Manager does pretty well, never really checked out how FIFA went about it though.

This is exactly why I like to use FM stats. Yes we can all disagree about each and every stat for every player, that is the beauty of football, but the key point for me is they are genuinely scouted and whether we agree with the opinions or not they are all rated on a level playing field which lends itself well to representing a nicely balanced OF.

Do they have to follow the same rules as user teams when it comes to a points budget??

I think I mentioned something about that the other day, that's something I always wondered. On the hand you think would konami have gone that in depth for the AI managers but on the other hand when you look at all the nuances they did include in the way player stats work and so on then perhaps they did.

 

[Sany023]

I was found this wonderful japan review of Pro Evolution Soccer 6 aka Winning Eleven 10

https://yadi.sk/i/EXP6j2pZd_NKDw

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid very surprised League Mode remembered the player stats, pretty cool though! So you could potentially generate an injury for a CPU team player and take that out, or also generate suspensions.

My initial thought was to use exhibition mode too, so that you had control over the form arrows. Having them at green then using our own formula to amend the stats would be a great base I think. Ideally it would be nice to also be able to explicitly set the form for each player (so the external tool could say an in form player would be more likely to have a top form arrow and so on) but this would probably be extremely tricky to test yet alone implement. However alongside the base calculation ahead of matches you could easily have another calculation made which mimics the form arrows, so certain players receive a stat boost or drop. This is done randomly but weighted so that a player who has scored back to back hat-tricks is extremely unlikely to get a stats drop, but it is still possible. I've probably opened another can of worms now but certainly a possibility!

I'm also taking a quick look into whether it is possible to make a tool that grabs the player stats once a match has finished (goals scored by a player, player rating etc). There was a tool called PES Statistic Center which could save detailed team states (possession, direct fouls, offside fouls etc) but this didn't get any of the player stats. I don't know if its possible and don't really have much experience with looking for or editing memory addresses but if possible this would make almost all the process automated.

 

[miguelfcp]

@geeeeee: Yes, the CPU does buy newgens, but didn't even touch mine. At one point, I even put all of them on the transfer market and still got no offers, had to release them. Of course I had to overpay them over the years in order to prevent them from letting their contracts run out so they were used to massive salaries - as were some of my most valuable Defaults like Gutierrez -, so I wonder whether that could've scared away the CPU from those expensive contracts.

@Special4988: That's an interesting thought. I don't know the answer but I really have no complains about the PES08 PS2 transfer market; at least on my experience the CPU was always able to either protect its best players or, if they left, they'd be replaced by equally valuable individuals.

 

[mattmid]

@PeterC10

Yes I was quite shocked by that when I tested it! I initially thought leaving players out was going to cause a crash as well, but no. You can change the players stats too as it evidently uses the base OF unlike ML (although I think it was special4988 (or geeeee) that recently said he'd found out you can change their positions played and the ML picks it up) Strangely though it won't alter the formation if you change it in edit mode. Pre game it will still start with the one at the time of first save (this is when it's a game for multiple human players when you can't change your formation when in the league menu unlike when single player)


That would be fantastic if there was a way of taking player stats. I guess it must be somewhere, after all in ML it keeps their average rating so the value must be stored somewhere even if only temporarily until the match is ended by the user in exhibition games.

You could set their consistency stat up or down depending on form. I did try testing that once and it did appear to be that the higher it is the less likely you are to get a down arrow and vice versa, but again it was still a bit random. It would be nice to have a set formula though as I always thought the PES %'s were a bit extreme and seeing as your thought is to export an OF (or even a csv to import I guess might be easier?) then the increase in stats can be done that way. Like you say though if there was a way to change the in game chance for the arrow that would be handy if done in a league mode.

The only thing I ever worried about with exhibition mode is how much does a team want to win in a situation where it needs to but of course has no idea of any context as it is playing an exhibition. I guess the answer for that is to play a one off cup match but then you have the form arrow problem. That idea I had I was thinking about playing each round of fixtures out in cup mode and with me 'coaching' one team which therefore would be the game I watched whilst the AI played out the rest. Then I came up with the from idea which led me back to exhibition but that would mean all games would have to be played/watched which I'm fine with but the whole time of doing things manually for form etc could get to be a bit tiring. Then out of nowhere came your post about this automated idea outside the game

 

[PeterC10]

@mattmid at the bottom of this post is a memory address for the random generator, but who knows if this is correct, if it is for exhibition matches only, or actually has any effect but could be worth looking into.

With exhibition mode I'm really not sure. With my league vast majority of games were played as exhibition except for cup knockout matches and cup finals, I can't say I noticed much difference in terms of how determined a team were as such. If a team scored a late minute winner/equaliser they would celebrate the same as if it was in the Cup or League mode. However with my league teams there was a rule around team mentality, basically the defensive options were not allowed. Standard was defensive, slightly attacking was the default and all out attack was the same, so generally the teams were always a bit more... aggressive if that's the right word. This could be a problem if the CPU in exhibition doesn't use realistic mentalities. Also you could potentially also adjust player stats based on their mentality attribute so that in a high pressure match a player with low mentality is more likely to suffer a stats drop. Basically using stats and mentality to try and put in some context.

Regarding all games having to be played/watched, for the non-player games speeder could be useful. If that was set to something crazy like 8 and the match ingame was set to double speed, then a full match (same time settings ingame as the player match) would get played out, the stats just as valid etc. Although this would mean needing to restart the game every time you went between player and CPU matches, but luckily the older PES games start up pretty quick. Again I suppose this comes down to if this is being used for simulation like your youth league, or if it is for players who are playing with 1 team through a simulated league, cup etc. With the latter there is always the option to generate the result outside of PES based on the player stats, it would probably be tricky to get something sophisticated but I'm not 100% sure how sophisticated PES is for simulating other teams games anyway.

But yeah making things as automated as possible is my main goal. The reason I had to stop running my league just under 5 years ago was because I didn't have the time needed to run it properly anymore, and I didn't want to do something half hearted. That's why I'm also hoping to automate importing of player stats and match events as much as possible. With speeder you can run a full game in a couple of minutes, and if you could easily get all the stats you needed from it then that makes running a league, cup etc so much easier. Even if I can't get the stats directly from the game maybe something crude like taking a screenshot and finding a program to try and work out the text to see what ratings players go, who was substituted etc could work.

If anything comes from this then it would be fairly easy for someone to play for example a more realistic Euro 2016, where 3rd placed teams are actually ranked on their results and so on. PES would simply be the match engine, the most important part!

 

[mattmid]

I'm loving all this Peter I'd never even considered speeder

at the bottom of this post is a memory address for the random generator, but who knows if this is correct, if it is for exhibition matches only, or actually has any effect but could be worth looking into.

That's interesting I wonder if it could be changed to make them all green (for example)

Also you could potentially also adjust player stats based on their mentality attribute so that in a high pressure match a player with low mentality is more likely to suffer a stats drop. Basically using stats and mentality to try and put in some context.

Brilliant, love that idea! About that can of worms...

but I'm not 100% sure how sophisticated PES is for simulating other teams games anyway.

Yeah. It does seem to do a pretty good job I think on the whole. Better than FM these days I'd say! In my Youth OF when I was testing it I watched an AI v AI Lyon v Portsmouth and we sadly went down 6-0 which I thought was probably pretty accurate, especially since most of that youth team have since been released, whilst 2-3 of the Lyon players are now in their first team squad so the quality gap was big and it did reflect it.

 

[PeterC10]

Yeah. It does seem to do a pretty good job I think on the whole. Better than FM these days I'd say! In my Youth OF when I was testing it I watched an AI v AI Lyon v Portsmouth and we sadly went down 6-0 which I thought was probably pretty accurate, especially since most of that youth team have since been released, whilst 2-3 of the Lyon players are now in their first team squad so the quality gap was big and it did reflect it.

Just to be sure, when you say watched AI v AI do you mean you actually saw the match or was it just the 6-0 result you saw?

It's probably worth trying to get a proof of concept going at some point in the near future, maybe a small league of say 8 teams. That would give 14 rounds which should give a decent indication of how well this could work.

I think fundamentally what we need at first is:

1. A base OF - this will have the base stats of the players in the league/cup being run. We only care about the player IDs that are part of the competition.
2. A "live" OF, this will still be a full OF but with the latest changes to player stats. In theory it should be possible for this outside tool to directly update the OF, we have all the info we need in the existing editor, but probably at first generating a CSV to import will be enough. Walk before running etc. Either way the player would still need to reload the OF in PES, but that's a quick process luckily.
3. A list of factors into deciding how player stats get updated after each game and how heavily they weigh. The player's form in the last X games, whether the team is playing away from home and has a poor away record etc.

With the factors there are so many possibilities. We could for each team set a home factor, that means they get a bigger advantage when at home as their atmosphere is intimidating, or they haven't been beaten at home in X amount of games. I think it would be worth seeing how much effect mentality has on exhibition matches, my understanding was player's with high mentality would suffer a lower drop in stats as they tired and if they go behind in the game, but have never really looked into it.

The beauty if the player can be in control of all parameters so could tweak them as desired.

 

[mattmid]

Just to be sure, when you say watched AI v AI do you mean you actually saw the match or was it just the 6-0 result you saw?

Yes I actually watched it. If I recall correctly it was a 20 min match.

Just remembered I posted a screen of the match stats on here, just hunted it down....

Spoiler

It's probably worth trying to get a proof of concept going at some point in the near future, maybe a small league of say 8 teams. That would give 14 rounds which should give a decent indication of how well this could work.

Good idea, agree with those points. Isn't it incredible the possibilities that a csv import has opened up?

The mentality is also tied in closely with the stamina because as you said the 'tiredness' of the player effects their drop in stats and the mentality effects how they play when they are tired as well.

This is why I think the stamina can be a lot lower than usual in a league like this that is being controlled outside the game. As we found with Amador the low stamina really makes an impact in a single match as it does in real life, where as with a regular option file and a single game it doesn't really come into play until the fatigue has built up in the 2nd,3rd and so on games. With this being held as one off exhibition games it would allow a lower starting stamina stat for players so that it impacts within a single match.

Then whatever formula is decided on could just chip away at the stamina figure (perhaps a cumulative amount if the player is playing consecutive games something like -1, -1, -2, -2, -3, -3, -3, -4, -4, -4, -4 and so on? Their stamina stat is dropped in that order. So a 75 would go to 74,73,71,69,66,63,60 and be at 56 after 8 games at which point you might think I need to rest him for the next game game. A game where they don't play they regain stamina points, I don't know say 15 for example as that would cover up to the -3's, meaning you could play a player 7 games and rest him 1 to get him back to full stamina. This 15 goes back on their stat each time they don't play in a row until they hit their base figure again. So in that case if he was rested at 56, he'd be 71 for the next game and it would be up to you whether to rest him again to get him back to max fitness of 75, or just throw him back in straight away and he'd go down from 71 this time) It would add a real management element too balancing the stamina with the need to play your better players or risk a weaker back up. I guess you could also scale it with time on pitch/being a sub.

That could be a good point about home advantage because I'd imagine the exhibition games are treated as a neutral venue so whatever home advantage PES might throw in should be absent there.

Yeah having all the parameters under the player's control means they can tailor it exactly as they like it and fine tune it to their liking.

 

[#71]

Oh god! I've been asking for some of the things you mentioned for a decade or so... I just wrote an huge reply only to unfortunately delete it before posting...:/ But I'll do it again, for sure.
My opinion was always that, in order to enjoy everything PES had to offer (stadiums, faces...) we needed some kind of tool that would manage a career mode, using only PES for its best: gameplay. It would launch the game, retrieve results and stats and that's it.
Since I don't have any programming knowledge, what I did, I enjoyed quite a bit was:

- Got a full FM excel database . Studied what each skill meant for PES and FM (for example aggression on PES is totally different from agression on FM)
- Created a relation between different stats. On some, a direct conversion could be made. On others I did an average. On quite a few I had to make a average with different %. Let's say Speed is 100% speed. But Ball control could be 25% skill A, 5% skill B, 40% Skill C, 30% Skill D). Having that I'd have a table with FM values (1-20) to PES stats. Now the beauty of it is that I could adjust it to my liking. I enjoy a slow paced gameplay. So, imagine a 20 Speed FM would convert to 88 PES (the quickest players on the game would have 88 tops). But, others might prefer a 20-99; 19-98. This can be easily changed. For example, to get that slow paced gameplay I noticed that most important was the passing speed (short and long), so I used 40 for all players. And I enjoyed it but others might not. The important is what skills are on each value conversion not the scale. The scale is a user-preference gameplay.
-Having my 300'000 or so players database I had to import the stats using PESfan manually. Apparently not anymore!

To make a proper career I did the following... Simulated FM season only to get the transfers. It's so much more realistic and it's quite enjoyable to see which players your board sign (you can transfer/loan list, make players unavailable and I think you can even set shortlist targets with FMRTE).
FM also has a prestige value for each team, I'd use that to create a formula to simulate what job offers I'd get. I could start on League One, get an offer from a czech team, be champion there and sign for a Serie B team next. All of this enjoying all great stadiums from these countries, etc..
Since you can get the excel database from FM at any time, and already have the excell conversion formulas, that meant that I could easily import any youth players or have players progress.
I have to find that excel file...

This is obviously time consuming and has its flaws since I couldn't simulate games...

If we could have a tool that would simulate other games, even have a transfer market simulation... PES6 would live forever. Because everything else can be simulated... there's so many ideas on how players can impact other players (like, a player with leadership >17 would give 10% increase on all other players), better managers would improve their players stats also (for example, a good defensive coach would improve all defensive values +2 for its team), having better youth department would give you an higher chance of having better new players... and so on.

You mentioned being able to create random new players. This is GREAT for a youth system for a career mode, for example. If we have a database where you could have average ratings for each country, we would see, for example, 18 yo argentinian players with 62 average, portuguese 61 average rating and Botswana 41....
I think we could do something great. I know this is far away for now... but there's great minds here, with lots of love for PES6...
I mean... Sensible Soccer was in a diskette and had almost unlimited teams, job offers and basic transfer market. And lots of people still love it.

 

[Special4988]

@mattmid @PeterC10 I have been running a ML in exhibition mode because I like all players on green arrows and I can vouch for games playing out quite realistically. There are occasions when the "weaker" team wins or gets a draw, but most of the time the better team will win. When playing on green arrows, player individuality really stands out because their stats aren't nerfed or inflated. Love seeing the dialog between you two!

@miguelfcp @mattmid I will start calculating how AI managers manage their team in ML. I will pick both a top team and a bottom team and add up their player costs, and at the end of the season tally up their wins and draws, subtract or minus their market moves during the 2 windows, and finally run the numbers. It won't be a perfect way, but it should give us an idea if they are allowed to cheat with their player salary.

 

[PeterC10]

@#71 wow that's a great system, time consuming for sure but great you managed to come up with that!

So many factors can be added like you said, I hadn't even considered the leadership stuff.

For me the option to generate random players years ago would have been great for my custom leagues as many custom squads needed to be created! But yes that is the thing, it can be used to generate new youth players and overcome one of the biggest issues has even in the modern versions (although there are those that love the regenerated retired players, but I'm not one of them!).

 

[mattmid]

@#71 Some great ideas there I think I remember you mentioning this to me years ago. I can fully appreciate the time consuming manual input of PES stats, I once entered the entire English leagues stat by stat. Now with the csv import I couldn't even bring myself to do that ever again under any circumstances!

That must have been an awful lot of work but great fun at the same time, I like that you simmed a season in FM for transfers etc as well, great idea!

 

[#71]

You both have been doing great work for the community on the OF... that's why I keep visiting PES6 forums, even if I'm satisfied with PES19... I'm always looking back on PES6 and will always play it.
Actually it wasn't that much work, I only had to import players field stats...in a week or so I managed to edit my league (I didn't edited teams I didn't played). Mattmid and its smaller league OFs...it's another level.
I used to have LOTS of ideas for this... I'm sure they'll come back.. but it's great to see PeterC10, for example, having similar thoughts about the right direction for the game (the visual part of the game was always improved in a way the database never was). I think that if we ever break some of the limitations we have nowadays.. we'll gets tons of new ideas/features/returning players. Latest PES Editor is a great step on that direction..

 

[PeterC10]

The mentality is also tied in closely with the stamina because as you said the 'tiredness' of the player effects their drop in stats and the mentality effects how they play when they are tired as well.

Yeah I'm simming a few matches with two teams with the same players, tactics etc but one with mentality 99 and the other mentality 1. 20 mins but at about 16x speed to get it done in a few minutes. For the most part they play similarly but near the end of the game the mentality 99 team seems to be stronger (doesn't mean they always win, but they have scored more late goals). This is with a vanilla OF so I guess the stamina settings mean that most players aren't getting tired enough quickly enough but its encouraging at least.

Then whatever formula is decided on could just chip away at the stamina figure (perhaps a cumulative amount if the player is playing consecutive games something like -1, -1, -2, -2, -3, -3, -3, -4, -4, -4, -4 and so on? Their stamina stat is dropped in that order. So a 75 would go to 74,73,71,69,66,63,60 and be at 56 after 8 games at which point you might think I need to rest him for the next game game. A game where they don't play they regain stamina points, I don't know say 15 for example as that would cover up to the -3's, meaning you could play a player 7 games and rest him 1 to get him back to full stamina. This 15 goes back on their stat each time they don't play in a row until they hit their base figure again. So in that case if he was rested at 56, he'd be 71 for the next game and it would be up to you whether to rest him again to get him back to max fitness of 75, or just throw him back in straight away and he'd go down from 71 this time) It would add a real management element too balancing the stamina with the need to play your better players or risk a weaker back up. I guess you could also scale it with time on pitch/being a sub.

Yeah sounds like a good idea, although to play devil's advocate if a player hasn't played for a while should his match sharpness come into it? Probably best left out for now.

That could be a good point about home advantage because I'd imagine the exhibition games are treated as a neutral venue so whatever home advantage PES might throw in should be absent there.

In exhibition you can set the crowd stance to Home/Away or Neutral but don't know how this compares to League/Cup mode. In my leagues at the end of the season there were always more home wins than away wins, but the ratio was probably a lot closer than real life leagues. In any case it would need a significant boost if we wanted to make certain teams stronger at home.

 

[mattmid]

Yeah I'm simming a few matches with two teams with the same players, tactics etc but one with mentality 99 and the other mentality 1. 20 mins but at about 16x speed to get it done in a few minutes. For the most part they play similarly but near the end of the game the mentality 99 team seems to be stronger (doesn't mean they always win, but they have scored more late goals). This is with a vanilla OF so I guess the stamina settings mean that most players aren't getting tired enough quickly enough but its encouraging at least.

Ah that's interesting then that they are scoring more late goals. How about setting all the players on the low mentality side's stamina to say 70 to see if it has even more of an effect?

Yeah sounds like a good idea, although to play devil's advocate if a player hasn't played for a while should his match sharpness come into it? Probably best left out for now.

Actually that's a great point Perhaps after 2 missed games stamina drops by 1 per week to simulate lack of match fitness?


I'd never thought about that before, I wonder if setting the crowd stance does make the AI treat that team as being at home then? That would make sense actually

 

[PeterC10]

I used to have LOTS of ideas for this... I'm sure they'll come back.. but it's great to see PeterC10, for example, having similar thoughts about the right direction for the game (the visual part of the game was always improved in a way the database never was). I think that if we ever break some of the limitations we have nowadays.. we'll gets tons of new ideas/features/returning players. Latest PES Editor is a great step on that direction..

Yeah, there has been some good work into trying to get hidden teams playable for example but something like getting Master League to be more realistic or editing the structure of cup mode to get a proper Euro 2016 with qualifying third placed teams is probably just not feasible let alone the hundreds of hours it would take.

My super long term goal would be to have a database of teams, players etc outside of the game. The database would hold info about the players ingame stats (which should be covered in the proof of concept) but also kitserver stuff (what boots they wear) and also the teams. So imagine you got a cup match against a team in a lower league, the database could replace a team in the OF with the lower league team and then also update the relevant kitserver entries for kits, stadiums. This is all perfectly possible, the only real sticking point would be the team emblems but worse case it could either import the emblem directly in the OF, or a team in the OF is kept with a placeholder emblem. Don't know if I'm explaining it very well and all of this is a long way off as you said before but is very exciting nonetheless!

 

[PeterC10]

Ah that's interesting then that they are scoring more late goals. How about setting all the players on the low mentality side's stamina to say 70 to see if it has even more of an effect?

Good idea, do you know what the average mentality stat was on your Amador OF?

 

[mattmid]

Good idea, do you know what the average mentality stat was on your Amador OF?

I can tell you in a minute as I have a csv export of it.

 

[mattmid]

Good idea, do you know what the average mentality stat was on your Amador OF?

Ok it's 65.57 to be exact across all 4216 players! A high of 84 and a low of 45 (ouch) Median is 66.

actually that's stamina! will get mentality now

Right, Mentality average is 42.52! High of 84, low of 23, who is frankly an emotional wreck