The Retro-PES Corner

Finally got round to PES 2014 on my PES pilgrimage on PC and it's a strange one. Not quite as re-invigorating as I found PES '11 & '13 where I didn't appreciate just how good they were for their time until all these years later but there's elements of so much simulation potential here in '14 and then that direction went completely out the window.

Of course we know it rushed out a year too early and felt like a conceptual demo more than anything which all features, stadiums modes and even faces gutted from the game, the benefit of playing the last patched version after all these years is this has all been fixed by the community as far as faces and stadiums go.

I'll never forget how great I thought this looked and felt when I first played that leaked PS3 demo and thought this is it, this is going to be the ultimate football simulation! There's glimpse of it especially in regards to the MASS system and inertia being a massive influence, I loved it from a control and movement standpoint though I do see why they dropped the right stick to shoulder barge mechanic as it was too fiddly and ambitious.

Once you start passing and shooting however, the immersion ends there and incredibly unsatisfying. However as per the gifs below, Konami must've patched the shooting algorithms because I certainly don't remember long range shots being remotely effective yet the AI scored 3 against me!

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slamsoze said:
Teamwork,Mentality,Consistency, Aggression awesome stats that became hidden or gone forever over time.Stats that seperated the men from the boys.
I remember from pes2008 and after i always had complaints about my sbs and smfs AI.They were always standing imobilized when i need them and they were making the overlap when our team needed to defend.On the other hand until pes 6 their overlaps and transitions to defence were 9/10 time synchronised.
Also with mentality after pes6, cpu players lost their sanity and awareness of the situations too. It is really weird to see in a game 5-0,the opponent scores the 5-1 and instead of just run for a fast kick off as in retro series, they celebrate like they scored the golden goal in Champions League final!!
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@slamsoze ,Teamwork,Mentality,Consistency, Aggression, totally right, these four stats that are not about ability but what is between the players ears are the key factors in making a top class player in early PES games, when did they start getting rid of all these stats ? PES 6 already seems like all the players play and react the same. And certainly PES 2009 and 2010 had removed all individual traits that could be noticed on the pitch. I did not buy any PES games after playing PES 2010, so "meh" were every one of the thousands of players available.

And tbh, anyone who is not playing an early PES game master league on a Playstation 2 does not know what they are missing. :TU::TU::TU:
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
@slamsoze ,Teamwork,Mentality,Consistency, Aggression, totally right, these four stats that are not about ability but what is between the players ears are the key factors in making a top class player in early PES games, when did they start getting rid of all these stats ? PES 6 already seems like all the players play and react the same. And certainly PES 2009 and 2010 had removed all individual traits that could be noticed on the pitch. I did not buy any PES games after playing PES 2010, so "meh" were every one of the thousands of players available.

And tbh, anyone who is not playing an early PES game master league on a Playstation 2 does not know what they are missing. :TU::TU::TU:
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Those ‘mind altering’ :BLINK: stats are very much in PES2008, and are very very much effective :APPLAUD:
 
@Special4988: Hadn't noticed that about the defenders...it looked they were kind of "giving up" when they saw the league's best scorer (twice in a row now) Gutierrez was going 1vs1 with the keeper.
About Shimizu, I can't get him now because of the nature of the challenge I'm playing, Generations Mode: I can only get players when they're newcomer newgens (and only after one of my player retires), so as soon as he moves to another team I can't get them. The real shame is, I could've gotten him a few seasons ago. I can't remember exactly but must've been in the same season I got Jackson over him, which turned out to be the best centre-back in the league so I didn't exactly "waste" that pick at all.
 
miguelfcp said:
@Special4988: Hadn't noticed that about the defenders...it looked they were kind of "giving up" when they saw the league's best scorer (twice in a row now) Gutierrez was going 1vs1 with the keeper.
About Shimizu, I can't get him now because of the nature of the challenge I'm playing, Generations Mode: I can only get players when they're newcomer newgens (and only after one of my player retires), so as soon as he moves to another team I can't get them. The real shame is, I could've gotten him a few seasons ago. I can't remember exactly but must've been in the same season I got Jackson over him, which turned out to be the best centre-back in the league so I didn't exactly "waste" that pick at all.
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@miguelfcp , you should try and find some time to play an ML on a good PES edition with a more open transfer regime. I find the Default Originals Challenge a bit too restrictive at times and find my PES 3 master league to be a great change of pace, where I sign any real player with a salary capped at 800 pts. I have been able to sign Roberto Ayala as my new centre back partner for the CBW (sweeper centre back) Heinrich.

Worried you may toss the telly out the window in Portugal in pure rage at another open goal miss by Hamsun, Fouque and co, if you don't take a break.:SHAKE::SHAKE::SHAKE:
 
I tried again Pes 2014 with the patch above. It's almost depressing indeed.. animations, inertia and collisions wise it's a joy to the eyes, in some situations it's real life like especially with the broadcast camera. I don't even find passing bad to be honest. Such a shame that Konami went into a completely different direction and that this game itself is a bloody mess without decent contents.

By the way.. about Pes 2008 .. I spammed some Konami cups in this days and I must say AI is truly something else compared to other Ps2 chapters. It came to my mind that in that year they heavily advertised Teamvision (a sort of adaptive AI) as a feature for the "next gen" version only of the game.

Of course we all know how it ended up and the Pc, Ps3/360 games were all a mess.. the environment in which they made them on was too messy to appreciate it. But playing now the Ps2 version, and reading your accounts, I'm starting to think they put Teamvision in this one too.. maybe in a nerfed version or whatever, which however ends up shining in the old and reliable engine.

What do you guys think? @geeeeee ? Maybe you, the Pes 2008 master, considered this before me :D?
 
geeeeee said:
@Madmac79 heh heh master i am definitely not. This is what i posted in “The Lost Game” thread...

Read about half way through post 32 slowly or you may miss the Team Vision comment.

https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/pes2008-ps2-version-is-the-lost-game-video-thread.77796/page-2
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Seems like I just discovered hot water then :LOL:.

Brilliant game, by the way. Just had another fascinating match in a new Konami Cup.. a Celtic (me) - Sevilla in which I've lost 1-2 in a super tight contest, in which after they came back to my 1-0 (wonderful lefty by Nakamura, Jesus Navas and a beautiful crossbar-goal free kick of Dani alves for them) Sevilla guys started fouling me over and over.

Can't get over the fact this game isn't on Pc.. just imagine how many editing wonders we'd have by now..
 
mattmid said:
Those old leather balls were heavy. And that was just the players. :D
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In Football Champ, there three types of tackles: flying drop-kick, straight-arm punch and shirt pull followed by cheap shot to the head.

Football has banned tackles now, there must be a happy medium between assault and battery and the non-contact bolloxology we see today. :NONO::NONO::NONO:
 
mattmid said:
Those old leather balls were heavy. And that was just the players. :D
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So any managers in later PES titles ? With all the dressing room faff, surely a coach on the touchline like the monocled teutonic boss we see in the clip was a must to add to the game. :?:?:?
 
WhoAteMeDinner said:
So any managers in later PES titles ? With all the dressing room faff, surely a coach on the touchline like the monocled teutonic boss we see in the clip was a must to add to the game. :?:?:?
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I don't know I've only played the demos of most of them apart from 17 and I couldn't tell you if they are in that :LOL:

Instead of banning tackles they should ban rolling around on the ground like a 3yr old.
 
Titch said:
I would love a 16-bit football game with a giant database and early PES style gameplay. Heaven.
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I'd seriously go "shut up and take my money" mode for something like that.

16-bit but super deep gameplay. If we think about the magnificence of some latest 2d games, it's not impossible. Winning Eleven on Gb Advance was already a good starting point a ton of years ago.
Then, cyclopic editing possibilities to remedy impossibility of licences. Maybe a good career. I'd be set.

It's a shame that no indie company ever gave a shot to something like that. I don't have much more hopes of ever seeing a new football game faithful to fundamentals if not by a similar process.
 
@WhoAteMeDinner: At times it's frustrating yes, but t's so fulfilling when you're able to win matches and conquer silverware with these guys. Still, I keep the promise I made you a while back so I'll definitely play a ML save on PES3 later on. The problem is, it's impossible to get bored/tired of this majestic combination of PES08 PS2 gameplay + Generations Mode challenge.

@Madmac79: The AI is truly good. I just played Rosenborg, kicked their asses on the first half with a 4-0 score on just 35 minutes of play. After the 4th goal, Rosenborg's manager subs off one of his CB for a striker, changing their formation from a 4-3-3 to a 3-3-4. And suddenly, everytime I got the ball back and wanted to begin a counterattack, not only did they pressure the player with the ball relentlessly, but they also fouled a lot. This dramatic increase in their physicality and aggressiveness was a means to counterbalance their rather ambicious new tactic. However, this happened only when I was beginning my offensive transition. If they couldn't stop the transition rightaway, they'd sit deeper and scale back their aggressiveness. They would no longer apply a lot of pressure in order to maintain position and therefore maintain the team's defensive shape to deal with my (now) organized offense.
For those who can't believe what their reading, yes, this is the AI of a 10-year-old football game on a PlayStation2. Incredible stuff.
 
One would say that my man AutoMatic is having no trouble fitting in our team...
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Currently he has a starting-11 spot alongside Gutierrez, sent Ordaz to the bench. As I expected his 203cm comes in handy in a lot of situations (even defensively, for when we does a sliding tackle it looks like Inspector Gadget stretching his legs...) but I'm surprised to see him connecting so well with Gutierrez up front, and trying to be a more complete striker than he is in theory.
Don't think his wonderful form will last a lot longer, but I'm definitely capitalizing on it while it lasts.

Fredriksson scores a free kick, finally! He ended that match with one goal and one assist (a corner).

Now about those little things that make a (good) football game. Look at the blonde Porto CB on this play. When my striker (number 9) gets the ball, he has to close the space on the middle, getting close to the other CB. If he doesn't, my number 9 is able to go 1vs1 with the CB. The problem is that, at the same time, Gutierrez (the other striker of mine) is making a run to take advantage of the space the blonde CB left open between him and the RB - remember he let that space open because the priority was to avoid my number 9 to go 1vs1 with the other CB, so blonde CB had to get close to his partner.
What does Blonde CB do? He waits until Ordaz (no. 9) commits to some kind of action and he does: he stops the ball. Blonde CB's brain is connecting the dots: "if he stopped the ball and Gutierrez is running behind me, he'll pass him the ball with a through pass/long ball. I have no time to approach Ordaz before he passes the ball, and also I've no time to catch Gutierrez".
Solution? He positions himself a little deeper than his defensive line, allowing Gutierrez to remain in a non-offside position for a tiny while; then he sees the other CB is approaching Ordaz which will mean Ordaz will be forced to take a decision soon. Now, he sees Ordaz is making a movement with his body indicating he'll pass the ball - so even before he actually passes it! - , Blonde CB makes a quick forward run that has no other purpose but to let Gutierrez offside.
Seriously, 10-year-old game on a PS2.

And on the importance of teamwork, check out my now 91-teamwork Sousa, number 51. Matic is holding on to the ball so Sousa believes it's more important to provide an offensive passing lane. He runs forward. But as he's running, he realizes Matic is running towards the left - which by the way was a stupid decision of mine, should've respected Sousa's run and gave him the ball. Now, Matic has no passing lanes available and it looks he'll be trapped by a couple of defenders. What does Sousa do? He runs at full speed to meet Matic with the only purpose of trying to give him a decent passing lane. As soon as Matic is facing our own midfield, Sousa sneaks in behind number 26's back, sits deeper and provides a passing lane that Matic sees and takes advantage of. At some point of the video you see my number 5 Dodo which typically would've been the one who had to provide that passing lane as he's a left-side DMF, but because his teamwork is only 77 he wasn't clever enough to see everything Sousa saw on those mere seconds of play (the sign of a lower football-IQ, in PES a lower Teamwork stat). He was still clever enough to recognize Sousa was giving Matic a backwards passing lane, so he made a forward run to take advantage of the space the CMF let when he dropped back to help Matic.

Also look at number 26 on the opposition throughout the whole play. First he'll join the incoming "Matic trap", but then he sees there are already two players on him. So he literally stops and you can almost read his mind there: "well, if two players are on Matic, they must've let space that I should cover!". Look at him: he stops, and he LOOKS AT THE MIDFIELD to see if there's someone who needs marking! He even looks, goddammit! Then he sees Sousa and tries to mark him; but as we saw before Sousa is one clever dude so as soon as Sousa sees number 26's head turning to see him (seriously, look at it), he purposely changes his running pattern, so instead of running towards number 26's right side he fools him and goes left, leaving Sousa unmarked and ready to get the ball.
 
@geeeeee: No worries there man, take your time, the beauty of retro-PES is that we have all the time in the world to play and enjoy it - and in some cases like yours, to edit it.
Thanks, but honestly a game like 08 helps a lot, you're always spotting new and interesting things. Such depth!
 
@miguelfcp wonderful narrative. Pure football here.

The thing about this game is that if you do maybe a single exhibition here and there, you really can't grasp the incredible richness of the AI. I can already see a lot of external people trying the game, doing as above and saying, "so? what's so special about this game?".

But as you start doing a cup, or some league maybe, where the cpu WANTS to win, you also start to see an incredible variety of situations, tactics and even single player behaviours by cpu. Outside shoots, players defending the ball, teams parking the bus or going all out as in your previous post..
Lately I've been just selecting 8 teams and starting a single round elimination Konami Cup. It's so simple and immediate yet so fun and addictive. You always get tight games and never the same one!

As you said.. ten years old AI. It's almost surreal.
 
@miguelfcp Awesome write up and video clips to show some AI intelligence there.

I finally started a Master League in PES 2008 to go along with my Spurs one in PES 2014. For the first time ever I tried the default players, and funny enough a lot of the players feel like long last friends because of the stories I heard about them from you guys.

PES 2008 Master League
Professional game difficulty
Regular management difficulty
Management only, (not playing any games, just making subs and tactical changes)

I decided on a 4-5-1 formation with 2 DMF to stay in a more defensive formation while my team lacks the skill level as other Div 2 teams. First game was against the Wolves and both teams struggled to get a rhythm going, but Wolves were able to get ahead before the break. Down 1-0 I brought in the youngster Gutierrez to replace Ordaz in hopes of salving a tie. Gutierrez missed 2 golden opportunities.... But overall I was quite impressed how my team played, with the exception of Miranda, who seemed to be a step behind the whole game.

Looking forward to seeing what progress we make this year. My only goal is to not finish bottom of the table.
 
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Does anyone know any camera editor (or editing trick) to change the height of the camera with WE7 (PES3)? I am a big fan of player camera and in that game the camera is so high that you barely see what is going on few meters ahead.
 
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