The Retro-PES Corner

[Madmac79]

Spot on,it's like every GK on 15-18 has "stay on the line" card or something,nowhere near these old games.
Which is so strange,is it to entertain the Myclub crowd?

Yeah, possibly it has something to do with dumbing down "balancing" the game for My Club. We'll never know for sure I guess.

To think there would be so much possibilities with modern era and goalkeepers.. years ago I used to dream a game in which there would have been numerous GK styles mimicking the real ones, that would have also been super evident/incisive in game of course. But unfortunately this hasn't been the case so far.

 

[miguelfcp]

Guys, I was reading this thread: https://www.evo-web.co.uk/threads/the-future-of-pro-evolution-soccer-6.73889/

Do read it when you can, it has a few interesting ideas and opinions about the state of PES6. Shall I say it's literature for the Retro-PES enthusiast?

I had the idea of starting a conversation here, inspired on what I've read there. I want your input on not just the future of PES6, which is the topic of conversation of @craney91's thread, but the future of the classic PES games.

• What are the challenges and advantages of playing these retro-games in the current day?
• What can be done to bring more people to play these games, in order to keep them alive and relevant for the future? Or do you think it is impossible to make a retro-PES game popular in a modern enviorment?
• Editing-wise, it's clear we've been losing patchmakers over the years and fewer people come in to replace them and "carry the torch". Why do you think that happened? What can be done to refuel the passion for editing (particularly Retro-PES editing) that the community has been losing over the last few years?

Don't hold back and "write your *** off"; I'll be doing the same later on.

 

[rockstrongo]

Yeah, possibly it has something to do with dumbing down "balancing" the game for My Club. We'll never know for sure I guess.
It's a shame how watered down it's
To think there would be so much possibilities with modern era and goalkeepers.. years ago I used to dream a game in which there would have been numerous GK styles mimicking the real ones, that would have also been super evident/incisive in game of course. But unfortunately this hasn't been the case so far.

It's really amazing how they've watered down the game, especially when the new gen has so much to offer in how much you can cram into a game.
Yet they just take away features

 

[Chris Davies]

What are the challenges and advantages of playing these retro-games in the current day?

Do you mean challenges as in, actually getting them working, or as in, actually enjoying them?

For me, the biggest challenge in enjoying them is getting past how certain actions are so basic (i.e. not much is taken into account). Lots of times I'll press the pass button and watch the ball fly off at 100mph in a perfectly straight line to the target, when the players' leg didn't move anywhere near fast enough to generate that kind of power, and with laser-accuracy.

Both of those things plague PES to this day, but they're way more jarring in the old games, because the animations are worse, and there's less of them, so they don't really match what ends up happening to the ball, if that makes sense. Coming from modern games, you notice all this stuff, and it takes you out of the moment. You go "urgh, that was weird".

What can be done to bring more people to play these games, in order to keep them alive and relevant for the future? Or do you think it is impossible to make a retro-PES game popular in a modern enviorment?

I think PES 2013 is great - it's fun, it's fast, the AI isn't one-dimensional. It's like the perfect version of what PES keeps trying to be in the modern era, I think.

But in terms of what WE can do with those older games... I mean, what CAN we do? Other than maybe patch them to keep them up-to-date, and keep them running in modern OS's.

Editing-wise, it's clear we've been losing patchmakers over the years and fewer people come in to replace them and "carry the torch". Why do you think that happened? What can be done to refuel the passion for editing (particularly Retro-PES editing) that the community has been losing over the last few years?

I just think that eventually, people move on. Even if you don't like the modern PES games, five years of playing the same game and learning the AI's behaviours inside-out (or how to win online) will be enough for anyone, beyond those who don't have the time to play the game for 10 hours a day.

Some patchers might decide they're waiting for the next great PES game - some might have decided "everyone else is playing FIFA so I've got no choice if I want to play with friends" - some might have ditched gaming completely.

I think there'll always be enthusiasts - SWOS is still played online, and there's still tournaments, and even though the original dev(s) update it, it'll never have that kind of following again (Konami might have the same problem).

But losing editors, as you describe it, is natural.

In ten years' time, people will be dedicated to PES 2017, and they'll have a whole host of reasons as to why it was the best PES.

(But not 2018. No way. )

 

[papinho81]

I am using PESEdit 12.2, it is well updated to current football scene (except players stats and teams tactics which are meuh...) with also a nice graphic package (many many faces, ect...). I have also the blue patch by smoke which is older and come with two exe version. I will try with the older exe to see if it solves my problem.


PS: actually I have found a link toward many Patches for various version of the game if anyone is interested I can share it by PM.

I managed to have Jenkey gameplay tool for PES2013 (version 3.21) to work with the 1.00 exe, but it doesnt work with the 1.02 even if I can attach it the game doesn't start.

Is there any drawback I should be aware about playing the game with the 1.00 exe instead of later versions?

 

[Anjin]

What are the challenges and advantages of playing these retro-games in the current day?

Biggest challenge is, at least on PC, advancement of technology. Not all games are running fine on Windows 10. Also, in the age where everyone has at least 1080p screen, those games don't just look bad, they are barely comprehensible. I took my sweet time to experiment with variety of thingies and got PES 3 to look extremely good even though its 15 years old game.

Despite nostalgia factor, especially on PC it would be borderline impossible for me to play PES 3 in its original state. 1080p and stable 60fps is simply enough a must.

Great advantage is that, thanks to kitserver and sweetfx those things are doable. Also, putting it straight, PS2 PES games at least offer gaming experience, not artificial scriptey emotioney experience something. Difference between PS2 and PS4 era games in that regard is giant. I remember when I stopped playing PES 2015 after getting scripted to death in Go Ahead Eagles ML and went back to PES 6 and started Deportivo ML with Phoenix Patch. In PES 15, I won Eredivisie in first season on Top Player with weakest Dutch team. With Deportivo in PES 6 I have barely gotten to 6th place and European cups, I'm sure it was in the last game of the season when I've jumped back to 6th.

Guess which one was more satisfying? The one that was real of course. I complain about PES 15+ ML scriptings all the freaking time, but even then I won so many games and trophies between PES 15 and 18 on various difficulties and even manual settings. Any sort of accomplishment feels artificial. And that's only part of the grand scheme of thingies...

In PES 3 which am playing rn, this is so much never the case never! Stats mean everything and that can be see even more than in PES 5/6. Never once have I felt cheated, and believe me I've lost so many games in 90th minute, even got fucked over by random defender error in WEFA Champs final yesterday in extra time - not a single objection from me, because that's what could happen and guess what it happened, and not because of behind the scene calculations.

TL;DR I like playing actual game, not the artificial display of newest nikey boots and hairstyles tankyouverymuch.

What can be done to bring more people to play these games, in order to keep them alive and relevant for the future? Or do you think it is impossible to make a retro-PES game popular in a modern enviorment?

Idk really, and why would I care about more people? PES was niche to begin with, it is only natural that there won't be many of us either way. Besides, this thread does a great job of bringing people back into Retro PES, hell it got me to buy PES 3 btw where's my 8€ I've paid for it because of this thread!

Silly aside, popularity is really not that good these days. I'd rather have a few quality individuals involved in the whole ordeal who know what PES is all about instead of trying to reach out to anyone and everyone. That old PES still holds up for as many people as we see in this thread is a miracle!

What's worth being mentioned is online, that can always bring people together and make'em stay. I gotta get that WE9LE thing for once and play with you, only problem is I'm in love with PES 3 at the moment I used to play PES 6 online a bit in the past and it was excellent! Got me thinking bout ye olde days and playing on couch with me mateys, hah.

Editing-wise, it's clear we've been losing patchmakers over the years and fewer people come in to replace them and "carry the torch". Why do you think that happened? What can be done to refuel the passion for editing (particularly Retro-PES editing) that the community has been losing over the last few years?

People grow up, simply enough. Back in the school days I had all the time in the world to bang in season after season of PES 6 Master Leagues like a crazy. Granted, I still have tons of time and play the game but surely waaaay less than back in the day. I am not a patchmaker but I used to be a modder in another set of games (oldschool paradox strategies, now those whackers just spew DLCs one after another ugh) and growing up is definitely a huge factor. We grow up, we don't have time, we have other thingies to do...simply enough, life.

What could be done? Idk, at best we could entertain ourselves and maybe lure some other people in with some nice patch or OF...I keep thinking about alternative universe with different set of teams in which Italy is on top of the world again and balance of power is entirely different. Teams would be inspired by either PES 3-to-5-style-fake-teams, or some political/historical (both non-football and football) references. It would require fuckton of balance and work (all those faces omg) but think of it, starting a Master League with entirely new set of players and teams for you to explore anew? PES3 is great because...it doesn't have many teams.

I have written more but I broke 10k character limit and had to delete things...but they will show up one day again, eventually? I think.

***

And now its time for Commonwealth update. Only done the transfers yesterday and holy crap we have some big guns ready for this season. Over 60k of points have been put to use to acquire as what follows:




Chigrat - quality Romanian full-back from Westfalen, decent all-around.
Hyypia - the Finnish Wall Man I am reaching out for more and more neighbours of the Great Slavia. And we happily welcome Suomi people because they're damn good.
Ferguson - former Old Firm Blue captain who had to leave team after Scots have brought in English DMF Lampard. Fergie made a name for himself in Russian team Valdai as he led them back to Division 1. Now he will continue his adventures in Slavdom after accepting Polish Giants - Commonwealth's offer.
Bermar - another versatile, extremely talented Czech midfielder, very similar to Rosicly but he's good at the wings. Potentially monstrous, his dribbling stats are inbloodysane!
Olisadebe - Polski Nigerian, our national hero from early 00s. He became quality European striker in Poland and moved to Athenakos, but now that White Eagle Monster has emerged on the ocean of European football he will be coming back and good lord is he FAST.
Ujlesi - decent Czech CB, gotten for free as he was free agent. Decent backup.
Ignashevich - more or less the same except he's Russian, he's GIANT and also you got to see him at this World Cup if I understand things rightly!
Hakan Unsal - Turks were very warm and supportive towards Poland after it collapsed back in the day and so we remember them fondly. Unsal is my LMF option in case Bermar won't work out and/or I will need to rotate.
Ramski - Polski Canadian who scored a lot of goalshots in England, wonder if you guys remember his real name? I was surprised how good his stats are and decided to bring him in. Surely potential member of the starting eleven.




Look at that Teamwork and Speed! We are fast and deadly as mother of fuck, we are C O M M O N W E A L T H and this year we will win everything.

Of course first game of the season is against Longobardi...perfect!

 

[krishnan]

I managed to have Jenkey gameplay tool for PES2013 (version 3.21) to work with the 1.00 exe, but it doesnt work with the 1.02 even if I can attach it the game doesn't start.

Is there any drawback I should be aware about playing the game with the 1.00 exe instead of later versions?

I guess there may be some difference in animations, bug fixes.
For example, I used to play the 1.00 version and I installed a patch having the latest dlc and exe version.( 2-3 years ago).
I felt a major difference back then.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

Biggest challenge is, at least on PC, advancement of technology. Not all games are running fine on Windows 10. Also, in the age where everyone has at least 1080p screen, those games don't just look bad, they are barely comprehensible. I took my sweet time to experiment with variety of thingies and got PES 3 to look extremely good even though its 15 years old game.

Despite nostalgia factor, especially on PC it would be borderline impossible for me to play PES 3 in its original state. 1080p and stable 60fps is simply enough a must.

Great advantage is that, thanks to kitserver and sweetfx those things are doable. Also, putting it straight, PS2 PES games at least offer gaming experience, not artificial scriptey emotioney experience something. Difference between PS2 and PS4 era games in that regard is giant. I remember when I stopped playing PES 2015 after getting scripted to death in Go Ahead Eagles ML and went back to PES 6 and started Deportivo ML with Phoenix Patch. In PES 15, I won Eredivisie in first season on Top Player with weakest Dutch team. With Deportivo in PES 6 I have barely gotten to 6th place and European cups, I'm sure it was in the last game of the season when I've jumped back to 6th.

Guess which one was more satisfying? The one that was real of course. I complain about PES 15+ ML scriptings all the freaking time, but even then I won so many games and trophies between PES 15 and 18 on various difficulties and even manual settings. Any sort of accomplishment feels artificial. And that's only part of the grand scheme of thingies...

In PES 3 which am playing rn, this is so much never the case never! Stats mean everything and that can be see even more than in PES 5/6. Never once have I felt cheated, and believe me I've lost so many games in 90th minute, even got fucked over by random defender error in WEFA Champs final yesterday in extra time - not a single objection from me, because that's what could happen and guess what it happened, and not because of behind the scene calculations.

TL;DR I like playing actual game, not the artificial display of newest nikey boots and hairstyles tankyouverymuch.



Idk really, and why would I care about more people? PES was niche to begin with, it is only natural that there won't be many of us either way. Besides, this thread does a great job of bringing people back into Retro PES, hell it got me to buy PES 3 btw where's my 8€ I've paid for it because of this thread!

Silly aside, popularity is really not that good these days. I'd rather have a few quality individuals involved in the whole ordeal who know what PES is all about instead of trying to reach out to anyone and everyone. That old PES still holds up for as many people as we see in this thread is a miracle!

What's worth being mentioned is online, that can always bring people together and make'em stay. I gotta get that WE9LE thing for once and play with you, only problem is I'm in love with PES 3 at the moment I used to play PES 6 online a bit in the past and it was excellent! Got me thinking bout ye olde days and playing on couch with me mateys, hah.



People grow up, simply enough. Back in the school days I had all the time in the world to bang in season after season of PES 6 Master Leagues like a crazy. Granted, I still have tons of time and play the game but surely waaaay less than back in the day. I am not a patchmaker but I used to be a modder in another set of games (oldschool paradox strategies, now those whackers just spew DLCs one after another ugh) and growing up is definitely a huge factor. We grow up, we don't have time, we have other thingies to do...simply enough, life.

What could be done? Idk, at best we could entertain ourselves and maybe lure some other people in with some nice patch or OF...I keep thinking about alternative universe with different set of teams in which Italy is on top of the world again and balance of power is entirely different. Teams would be inspired by either PES 3-to-5-style-fake-teams, or some political/historical (both non-football and football) references. It would require fuckton of balance and work (all those faces omg) but think of it, starting a Master League with entirely new set of players and teams for you to explore anew? PES3 is great because...it doesn't have many teams.

I have written more but I broke 10k character limit and had to delete things...but they will show up one day again, eventually? I think.

***

And now its time for Commonwealth update. Only done the transfers yesterday and holy crap we have some big guns ready for this season. Over 60k of points have been put to use to acquire as what follows:

View attachment 5133
View attachment 5134

Chigrat - quality Romanian full-back from Westfalen, decent all-around.
Hyypia - the Finnish Wall Man I am reaching out for more and more neighbours of the Great Slavia. And we happily welcome Suomi people because they're damn good.
Ferguson - former Old Firm Blue captain who had to leave team after Scots have brought in English DMF Lampard. Fergie made a name for himself in Russian team Valdai as he led them back to Division 1. Now he will continue his adventures in Slavdom after accepting Polish Giants - Commonwealth's offer.
Bermar - another versatile, extremely talented Czech midfielder, very similar to Rosicly but he's good at the wings. Potentially monstrous, his dribbling stats are inbloodysane!
Olisadebe - Polski Nigerian, our national hero from early 00s. He became quality European striker in Poland and moved to Athenakos, but now that White Eagle Monster has emerged on the ocean of European football he will be coming back and good lord is he FAST.
Ujlesi - decent Czech CB, gotten for free as he was free agent. Decent backup.
Ignashevich - more or less the same except he's Russian, he's GIANT and also you got to see him at this World Cup if I understand things rightly!
Hakan Unsal - Turks were very warm and supportive towards Poland after it collapsed back in the day and so we remember them fondly. Unsal is my LMF option in case Bermar won't work out and/or I will need to rotate.
Ramski - Polski Canadian who scored a lot of goalshots in England, wonder if you guys remember his real name? I was surprised how good his stats are and decided to bring him in. Surely potential member of the starting eleven.


View attachment 5135

Look at that Teamwork and Speed! We are fast and deadly as mother of fuck, we are C O M M O N W E A L T H and this year we will win everything.

Of course first game of the season is against Longobardi...perfect!

@Anjin , totally agree on PES 6. I am playing PES 6, Playstation 2 version Default Originals Challenge at top difficulty, on sixth restart after five GAME OVERS, does not get any tougher than PES 1 to PES 6, and PES 3 is the ultimate test.

 

[rockstrongo]

@Chris Davies I'm quite sure Pes 17 will become a gem for future retro players,still think it's a good game,probably the one I've played the most post 5-6 era.
And yeah,18 will probably be left behind!
Even though I can enjoy the occasional game on it,problem is,after you had 2-3 good ML games on ,and you get invested,it stabs you in the back straight away

 

[Madmac79]

@Anjin post above is pure gold. I think I can agree with everything he said.

I'll add some things, starting by one I say pretty often: the real value of those old Pes, to me, is that they are really a kind of simulation. The way the stats and the other random factors interact with each other, personally I can always see a fresh made up "narrative" coming up. After all, I played Pes5 since the day it came out to a few ago.. with big intervals, sure, but I hardly see myself getting completely tired ever of this game or the others, especially now that I'm getting used to jump from one to another.

For the game to stay relevant in a larger fanbase.. it's hard honestly.
I can think about a comparison.. Doom. I mean the super classic, super old "wad" one in fake 3d. There is a large fanbase for it, but that's because the game is so highly moddable and you have stuff like Brutal Doom that brings the gameplay to levels of fun that challenges modern FPS. Now I'm no programmer or expert in the matter, but if only it was possible to seriously, deeply edit the core gameplay of Pes and not just players stats and stuff.. we'd be onto something. I don't think it's possible as probably somebody would have already done it by now.. but still.
Worth noting that most of users will play only new stuff regardless, anyway. I've read about people that couldn't even jump a chapter behind because they saw that new better animation and going back to the old, worse one would totally kill it for them. How could you ever bring them in retropessing? Impossible.

As Anjin already put it, Pes was already niche.. so, we are the niche of the niche . But honestly I'm more than fine with it. I can't remember a flame, a inappropriate comment, a stupid trollish remark in all the thread. Who cares to bring in more when you have quality?

Then, not everything is lost for the future. I'm sure that, sooner or later, a better, alive and capturing football sim will come out. I just hope we'll not have died of old age for then, but that's another matter

 

[papinho81]

I managed to have Jenkey gameplay tool for PES2013 (version 3.21) to work with the 1.00 exe, but it doesnt work with the 1.02 even if I can attach it the game doesn't start.

Is there any drawback I should be aware about playing the game with the 1.00 exe instead of later versions?

Keep quoting myself

Just to let people know, I have found a fix for the bug where the gameplay config.exe from Jenkey of version newer than 3.21 would not open with windows 10. Simply download the version3.21 of the tool, copy the "Gameplay config.exe" (only this exe) of that version and replace the one of the newer version you would like to use. Tadam! Now the config opens and works inside he game. Of course you can't access all the options of newer version of the tool from the config but you can access them and use them inside the game. With that trick I managed to run the tool with the game exe of version 1.03.

On a side note, anyone interested to play pes13 with current season patch should consider the Space patch V4 and its updates. It is built on the PESj patch and has quality content, at least much better than PESEdit 12 I was mentioning before in terms of almost everything (players rating, tactics, number of teams, stadiums, ...).

 

[miguelfcp]

Juicy debate...just how I like it!

@Chris Davies: I originally meant "challenges" as in, things that keep you from enjoying the game(s) such as the ones you've mentioned regarding passing and animations. In terms of accessibility, emulators have helped a lot since everyone can now play PS2 games on the PC without having to use the console itself.

I see your point. I agree that the transition from modern football games to Retro-PES can be hard - even if you just stop by for a couple of friendlies on an older game -, particularly if one has a mindset of expecting a 15-year-old game to provide him a more realistic experience than the most modern of football games, which is, expecting to solve a problem that affects modern PES that even modern PES can't seem to find a way to solve. I think we've done great here on the Corner by building a whole new different mindset: I'm using this platform that I have in front of me (be it PES1,2,3 or whatever PES), and I accept all of its advantages and disadvantages. Now, how can I enjoy it to the max., make the most out of it, whilst having a challenging and somewhat believable football gaming experience? And I go do that, regardless of what the latest football games are providing.

Now if you fire up a game like PES3 and start comparing its animations and graphics to modern games, I'd say, don't even bother, because your experience with it is going to be terrible. I know this because years ago I was doing the exact same thing. But eventually, you learn to just play the game as it comes, accepting the good and the bad.
When I see a guy like @Anjin, proudly admitting his PES3 ML team named Commonwealth just faced Peloponissos for the WEFA Championship after having won the Eastern League Division 1, I see a guy with the adequate mindset I spoke of, which allows him to enjoy the game so much that you can just feel his passion on the posts he writes. Without that mindset it would be very hard for him to carry on, because literally nothing of what's happening on his career is realistic/realistic enough when compared to what modern FIFA/PES career modes offer. Still, as many people here, he gives zero f*cks about it because he's just focused on enjoying the game as the game comes.

@Anjin: I'm kind of divided here, because I'm enjoying reading your PES3 ML but at the same time obviously we'd like to have you on our WE9LE server...
I agree with your take on popularity, but still I enjoy when I see more and more people reading and participating here as we've been seeing over the last few months. It makes a difference that we're carving out our little place out there with interesting and valuable content, and as @Madmac79 put it, building a positive atmosphere around it where everyone feels welcomed to speak up and participate. Not an easy task to accomplish in the age of social media...
I like your ideas for OFs...interesting stuff to think about.

@Madmac79: That reminds me of people complaining on twitter about a certain player's hair not being well-represented in PES, was it Neymar? I think so. On one hand I understand that kind of perfectionism of which I'm guilty of in many areas of life (including when playing PES!), but maybe we (we as in, everyone out there who's gaming) are losing touch with the fact that we're just playing a game, and instead of trying to find what's wrong with it, we should be actively trying to find ways to love it.
Particularly for the younger generations, who've been fed over the years with hyperrealistic faces and graphics and whatnot, I imagine it's pretty hard to play older games.

 

[miguelfcp]

Without copying what has been written already, I'll add just a few thoughts:

- A major advantage of Retro-PES: has an accessible platform for editing. When I think of a game like Football Manager, if I want to edit something I have to download an extra program, mess around with it and hope I haven't messed up the stability of the save with my editing. In PES, particularly the classics from the PS2 era, you have an edit mode in which everything's intuitive, menus move fast, and you don't need to be a programming wizard to work with it because nothing's too complex. Editing a whole team takes much less time than on any other football modern football game - also because you don't have to choose between 500 cheekbone types and 9000 hairstyles. So Retro-PES could be like a LEGO set, you build your own football game with the pieces you're given.

- On making these games more appealing: What I see is most people focused on creating patches with the purpose of competing with modern football games. The PSP PES patching crowd (non-existent here on Evo-Web but all over YouTube) even often call their patches "PES2019 PSP" and copy the current PES' wallpapers, logos and menus onto their work. The thing is, it's a fight you won't win because the platforms you're using (here it's mainly PES6) are year by year becoming increasingly more unrealistic when compared to a PES that's (although veeeery slowly) evolving its own, so it doesn't matter if you have the latest Neymar face on PES6 and the newest adidas boots; because the CPU will still sell Neymar to Leganés for 6000 PES points on your ML save and that'll ruin the realistic experience you spent thousands of hours working towards getting.

What if instead you built a patch that offers what nor current PES nor FIFA can offer? Classic patches with full-retro teams and players tapped into this potential. @Anjin just gave a couple of hints on how to do something completely out-of-the-box. My bet would be, a fantasy world comprised only by fake teams, players, leagues, competitions and even currency - the classic PES points. Then it'd be even easier to accomodate newgens/regens onto the narrative. With this, you could have fantasy stadiums, fantasy kits, fantasy boots, fantasy everything, allowing people to get creative. It'd be fun.

- On the future of editing: On every patch I ever participated I always did the database, never the graphics stuff so I'll focus more on that. Back then I had more time to spend on it, but also more people to help me. Admittedly I've tried many times over these recent years to update the database on a few retro-PES games but it's too much to do alone. I'm sure many relate to my experience.
Also, it seems the younger generations don't have the patience to devote themselves on the huge task that updating a whole database is.
But what if instead of updating 100% of it, why not ask people to update...20%? Or even less? So instead of doing almost 200 teams, why not updating only a league? Even if the rest of the game still had the default database, you could still play, let's say, an updated Premier League on the League mode/friendly/cup mode.
Let's say you figured out how to make the gameplay even more competitive through a new type of global stat adjustment you came up with. Why not applying that adjustment to 4/5 teams and publish the OF, kind of like a demo? If it works out and people like it, maybe you could do 10 more.
To me this could be the future. Instead of having maybe a couple of updated OFs available to play, we'd have many OFs out there, each one focused on a certain league or group of teams, obviously not suited for an ML save but valuable for other experiences. To be honest even 100% updated OFs are not suited for the ML as regens/newgens/unrealistic transfers eventually ruin it...

 

[saintric]

Just a heads up regarding PES 4 the International European cup matches are not just played during the summer so far my 3 group games have seen beckham and rooney wearing gloves at a chilly san siro, a summers day vs Sweden and then back to rain and gloves vs Bulgaria lol

Damn that would annoyed the hell out of me back in the day of its release bit of an immersion killer having random weather seasons in summer tournaments I imagine a final vs France in the snow was on the menu if I had made it out the group

 

[slamsoze]

on PES6 and the newest adidas boots; because the CPU will still sell Neymar to Leganés for 6000 PES points on your ML save and that'll ruin the realistic experience you spent thousands of hours working towards getting.

...

Are you sure that the 2018 CPU will not sell Neymar to Leganes??

 

[Anjin]

Its funny how things change, few years ago playing PES without some sort of license patch would be simply unacceptable for me. Especially in recent two or three years it all flipped upside down for me, I have found a massive appreciation for this classic fake teams. It just has so much unique style to it, at times it's more creative than real football teams I swear. Just notice how PS2 PES fake teams were an art: all the references in their names, properly done kits...what do we have now, XY Color?

I would totally love to play PES 2019 with grand total of 0 fully licensed teams and leagues but 100% of licensed players. Also original setup of Master League was simply superior to what we have right now. There's not enough national leagues to build up this feeling of continental football going on, hell despite new leagues (which I strongly appreciate and who knows I might even give PES 2019 a shot just to fool around in Denmark or Switzerland) we will still have bunch of fake teams to fill up empty spots in Eurocups. You either go full fantasy or full reality, you can immerse yourself in one or another. There's simply no middle ground.

Mixed European leagues in old PES mean a few things: no need to bother with licensed leagues or even teams, and also competitive games every fixture. Why bother playing 38 games 30 of which are against total whacks, if I can play 26 (PES3) or 30 (PES 5/6) half of which are against potential title contenders? Unfortunate side effect is that competition is so equal AI often has trouble with grabbing points and gets outsped by player who starts winning consistently at some point. But despite seemingly easy ML in PES 3 so far I had to go through hell so many times, especially second season had a terrible calendar, back to back top German teams from the start which take quite a lot of effort to beat and Eastern League is probably the easiest of PES 3 ML Leagues!

And I had the pleasure of getting the taste what quality English and Italian teams can do to you and boy this shit is scary...

I have stopped looking for a realistic transfers many years ago, because honestly what's a realistic transfer? Sheer craziness of PES 3 transfers (which have variety of settings in there let me remind you) has made this ML so much better from the gameplay perspective. Teams which had a good season behind them are able to bring in quality players and attempt going even higher. Second season runner-ups in my league, Marmara (Dinamo Kiev) somehow bought Robbie Fowler and he was even bigger nightmare to stop than their local man Melanschenko (spelling?). Realistic fuck no, but this is good gameplay, teams which are doing well are getting better and some giants literally sink into ocean! Milan had some terrible start and guess what, both Maldini and Gattuso are at Werder now (not that they're any better lol), and Chamartin (Real) was like 12th in Season 2! Start of Season 4, I face Galicia Sur (Celta Vigo?) in WEFA Champs and fuck me sideways they have Figo and Shevchenko who simply left their bad teams behind and joined someone better.

Not to mention the whole Peloponissos craziness, they've build up crazy line-up of defenders and ended up becoming best team in the game last season, winning it all - league, cup, and to my dismay WEFA Championship itself.

Who gives a damn about realism, what does it do? It doesn't make game any more interesting or harder. I would rather have this sort of madness going on, at least it's fun as fuck to see where some superstars ended up, AND it leads to amazing scenarios. Wanna know champions of the other three leagues? Already mentioned Peloponissos (Olympiakos), Galicia Sur (Celta Vigo), and Old Firm Blue (Rangers), and they have all pulled off quality transfers and built up great teams to achieve this. Far more interesting than Barcelona winning for xth time, this time with *realistic transfers* because they bought someone good for the exact price shown on Transfermarkt, which is way too much anyway because how can you pay hundreds of millions for a single person this world is just too fucked!

Also speaking of player prices, they seem real consistent in PES 3 so far. And PES Points are perfect. No need to adapt to any real currency, they just make sense in this world. Bring them back to 2019!



Yeah a random rant about licenses and Master League. TL;DR is simply that licenses are useless and old Master League has tons of gameplay value and this is what's most important in vidya games innit?


@saintric

I would totally not mind, original Euro (up until 80s?) was way different. Most games were played in normal home/away system and then you'd get some sort of final four (like in volleyball) for the final. It was during summer too yes, but I could totally get behind this kind of European championships that stretch through entire season.

 

[slamsoze]

...
Also speaking of player prices, they seem real consistent in PES 3 so far. And PES Points are perfect. No need to adapt to any real currency, they just make sense in this world. Bring them back to 2019!



Yeah a random rant about licenses and Master League. TL;DR is simply that licenses are useless and old Master League has tons of gameplay value and this is what's most important in vidya games innit? .....

Ι agree with you 99%. Beginning from the end! The only 2 points that would make the retro-pes titles playable for ever, for me are:
1) If Leagues size and draw would be full editable so we could add custom leagues and the most important, have all teams after pes4 compete in the ML. I don't like the treatment the teams are left outside the classic MasterLeague 4 Leagues structure have, cause of leagues capacity. They could at least have the very cheap way of modern games, being in other europe teams and Participate in WEFA competitions only.
2) If we could change managing clubs like current PES games, or in FM, or FIFA since 2005, if i recall right. As much as i love some clubs , i am really out of motivation to go on after 5-6 seasons. The most i have achieved in PES 6 is 10 or 15 seasons.

For the player prices i used to do a mind trick (personal placebo). I assumed 1P (pespoint) as 1k € (one thousand EURO). So for example a player that has salary of 578P,used to have in my mind 578.000€ yearly wage. And if i spend for a good player 12.000P it would be 12.000.000€, which now may seem unrealistic, but for late 90's and early 00's, it was a realistic transfer fee for the most of average players in Europe.
But this is a problem PES has since always. Even in PES 2011 that master league started with very low fees and unrealistic wages and after 1-2 seasons everybody were costing over the top.

P.S.: PES 2010 was the closest thing to reality i have seen,since the game reverted from POINTS to real life currency when we talk about payment/salaries €/$ etc. After 2010, they broke up the recipe for good, for unknown KONAMI reasons (maybe licensing???!!!)!

 

[mattmid]

@Anjin Tomas Radzinski of Everton?

@slamsoze The one thing I always wished with the ML was that the other Divisions had a Div 2 as well.


This happened in a game the other night which summed up why I love retro pes games so much and as the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words (or a video in this case )

AI defender, right footed, left foot rating is 2, technique 55

Spoiler: Retro Heaven

THIS, stats that matter, stats that have a direct input on how the game plays out.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

@mattmid ,
I would not change a thing, I have been a browsing foreign fields on these forums as they say, looking at threads about PES 2012 to 2017 and the foofery and faffery has just gone mad in the later games: team morale, scouting players four or five times, teams talks. I mean what about the game ?

And players like Hazard, Aguero, Ronaldo and co costing 2000 - 3000 a year in salaries.
No wonder the FIAT workers are on strike in Turin over the Ronaldo transfer.


@dsfrozen , big thanks for posting a full pdf ages ago of a PES 5 game guide, helping me tonnes with PES 6 as my tiddler Playstation 2 guide is about twenty pages and has no details, not two hundred.

 

[mattmid]

@miguelfcp I think one reason a fantasy world of football would work is because you would come into it with no preconceived ideas of how you think players/teams should perform. There would be the interest of finding out which players would be the stars, who are the players that don't seem on the face of it to have great stats all over but have key one's for their position and perform beyond what you'd expect of them and so on.

What we really, really need is for the the PESfan editors to have an import from csv/xls function. @lazanet was hoping to add this but his studies have seemingly prevented him from having any free time to move forward on it. There must be someone who could do it on this forum, one of the modern game editors seeing as the option is on the new editors. Of course the willingness to do it is another question. Perhaps we should put it out there and ask? The code is open source.

With this the input of the stats would be 100 times faster and aside from the real football stuff would also allow for a very quick fantasy file to be made. You could even completely randomise the stats on an excel sheet, paste down random names, then re import back into the editor and voila you have a complete fantasy option file without a clue as to who is best, who is crap and so on. Imagine the types of stat sheets that could come up. Although if you were to randomise them you'd perhaps have to do it by registered position to at least tailor it a little, so as you don't for example have a bunch of SB's who have a 40 DEF rating for example. You'd have to set ranges I think and then randomise the stats within that. Anyway it would open up so many possibilities for that.

 

[Anjin]

@Anjin Tomas Radzinski of Everton?

Yes and I am surprised looking at his stats, they'd imply he was one of Premier League's bests in early 00s? Already banged in a few goals for me, superb attacker.

1) If Leagues size and draw would be full editable so we could add custom leagues and the most important, have all teams after pes4 compete in the ML. I don't like the treatment the teams are left outside the classic MasterLeague 4 Leagues structure have, cause of leagues capacity. They could at least have the very cheap way of modern games, being in other europe teams and Participate in WEFA competitions only.

Either that or even just add second division to four other leagues. Or take this one step further and make regional leagues: Iberian, British, Western, Mediterranean (Italy-Balkans-Greece-Turkey), Eastern (former USSR and eastern side of Iron Curtain) and maybe some sort of RotW League if there were enough teams from America and Asia.

To be honest I always wanted the main four leagues to be simply bigger but realized it really isn't needed. The more games you have, the easier it is to speed away from AI with consistent performance. And also I admit 60-70 games a season total isn't really fun for me. At best in PES 3 you play 26 (League) + 7 (D1 Cup with Final) + 12 (WEFA Champs first and second group phase) + 5 (WEFA Champs knock-outs) = about 50 matches a season, this would be the max I could accept. In PES 5/6 you get extra 4 matches because there's 2 more teams in D1 but that's fine.

Also WEFA Super Cup would be cool.

In general being able to completely edit the structure of ML by yourself would be the biggest feature ever for me.



EDIT: As for Fantasy OF...

PES 3 imho, and it would have to be crafted by hand. I have some great ideas for teams IMHO, but I really, really don't want to drag myself into things and promise to do something I might not be able to do.

I will check Edit Mode out maybe I'll be able to make a team or two to show you what's on my mind.

To be honest lack of player development in PES 3 is in a way perfect. Player over-development in PES 5/6 ruins any sort of hand-made balance. Unless we were to go through every single player, find out which development seeds are not OP and assign them to everyone.

No no no.

As of PES3, only change I would do at this point is drop Injury Resistance(?) across the board (should be B and C everywhere, I had like one injury in 3 full seasons) and also stat that's responsible for stamina and fatigue. Sometimes there's hardly a reason to rotate squad. One thing I will admit is that for the first time I can physically feel the effect of form arrows and always change my team accordingly.

But injuries and fatigue ought to be more deadly for sure.

Oh and another EDIT...

At this point I am considering going through my OF and changing player names to real ones. As I've said I love fake teams, but fake players are a mixed bag for me. I appreciate their existence but wouldn't mind having correct player names.

 

[slamsoze]

Yeah @mattmid and @Anjin soz i forgot this. It was my youth's dream to have D2 in every league of ML. Or the still in 2018"mind-blowing" structure of 3 Divisions in a League (D1,D2,D3), like PES 2!!! used to have. Oh my god we are in 2018 and a custom league with 3 divisions, still seems a ghost from the far past, who could believe it!! And in a game that the main core philosophy is "just do it yourself" with all this edit mode contents, at least before the licensed leagues come into.
All these "do it yourself Leagues" was the cause of success of ML in my opinion. I remember that i tried every possible structure combination. Regional Leagues, Country leagues, Leagues according to team rankings/ratings.
Still in modern licensed pes games, i prefer running my ML in PEU League, which i edit as a mix-and-match UEFA SuperLeague with teams from Greece-Turkey-Rest of balkans or other Europe Champions than play in a clear Licensed-official League.

 

[mattmid]

I touched on it in an earlier thread but it is incredible the number of great features Konami removed (sometimes to reintroduce years later as an amazing new thing , rain ) Like the ai kicking the ball out for an injury or if still in play the ref blowing his whistle to allow treatment and then dropping the ball to allow you to kick it back to them. Why on earth would they take that out? No, what we'll do, we'll take something out that happens in most real life games and we'll add the no look pass instead and forty back heels a match. To think that 3 ML leagues were in pes2 is madness.

@Anjin All the recent option file editing I have done I have made all players C for injury, it is so much better I find. You get quite a few 1-2 week injuries quite regularly which mirrors real life, players out with tweaks and knocks etc missing a game or two and more of the longer one's too. My Norwegian league I was playing I lost my best CM on about week 5 of the season, out for 16 weeks Makes things so much more realistic I think.

 

[miguelfcp]

@mattmid: That import function would be truly a gamechanger. It'd be like simming 30 years on Football Manager and starting the save in 2048, with a world full of newgens.

@Anjin: Your posted reminded me of one I did, I think about a week ago on the PES2019 thread. Basically I wrote that it was a mistake for Konami to have followed what EA was doing regarding their own Career Mode. Instead they should've realized that the Master League was its own product and its tremendous popularity back then on the PS2 days was due to the fact that no other sports game had such a fantasy world, everyone was going for absolute realism except PES. What they ended up doing was introducing real competitions, real cups, even real currency and the ability to change clubs therefore corrupting the original purpose of the ML. What was the description of this game mode that appeared on the older games, "take a team of under-achievers to the top" or something like that? Over the years, they should've built on this premise of a fantasy world, even if with real players and teams, evolving this platform. Instead, fast-forward more than a decade and now ML is a poor-man's FIFA Career Mode, still bears the name of the ML but everyone knows it's just the name.

Regarding a fantasy-world OF, a few days ago I was looking on PESmaster for fake, original teams on PES games and there are enough of them for a PES3 OF, definitely. For PES5/6, they're not.
Another thing I have thought of would be to still have real players but invented teams, like regional ones, in an NBA-like enviorment. Imagine a league of Madrid, Catalunya, Lisbon, Porto, Galicia, Andalucia...

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Zlatan firing a bazooka against me - saved by the woodwork! Ambitious from the AI on PES 2011.

 

[Anjin]

Instead they should've realized that the Master League was its own product and its tremendous popularity back then on the PS2 days was due to the fact that no other sports game had such a fantasy world, everyone was going for absolute realism except PES. What they ended up doing was introducing real competitions, real cups, even real currency and the ability to change clubs therefore corrupting the original purpose of the ML.

This, for eighty million times! It's so depressing when you realize konami has effectively denied its own achievements, its own legacy and went that way.

On the other hand, when you think about this, when we were kids when PES 5 and 6 were around that's what we wanted to be the next step. PES gameplay with FIFA licenses. Who would have thought it will turn out this way...

Either way, back to Master League. I have made a decision that once I win WEFA Championship with Commonwealth I'll have to move on. Next ML will be on a somewhat edited OF. Definitely changes to injury and stamina system to force even more rotation on me. Also I want to correct all fake player names because I actually like having them legit.

I wanna look into stats like teamwork and mentality. What I am noticing is that teamwork has a huge impact on me. That Czech midfielder Bermar is so much whack for me, and I guess it might be down to him having 49 Teamwork. Is he adapting very slowly or will he forever be whack? Who knows...

Okay things! Number one did you know that goalkeepers can have HATS? How was this a thing and why the hell did konami removed it!!! What a nice touch, another one that we've lost and never got back again. I have seen one hat bearer and it is German Burgos from Manzanares.



WEFA Champs Group Stage was crazy. Won five games, lost one. Two massive wins over Galicia Sur (5-1) and Manzanares (5-1). Really lucky win against West Midlands Village (3-2) in our first game, bloody hell they have Cafu and Pires, and Vassell up front is so, so deadly! Only thing bringing them down is their GK, he truly messed up that game for them. In the second leg though they robbed me blind (0-2) and it was a deserved loss. Crazy team, shame they didn't got past group stage.

And Knockout Stage looks crazy this year! Only two teams from last season are me and Peloponnisos. Milan is back in the bussiness although they've sold so many key players I wonder how their team looks like at this point.

If I can get to face Peloponnisos in the final again and extract my revenge, it will be the most beautiful thing that could ever happen in the Master League.



League is weird. We stumble, but keep winning. New signings still need some time to get accomodated in Poland. Bermar is huge disappointment so far Others are okay. Ramski and Oli already got a few goals in. Hyypia is huge help in the back. Speaking of oldies, Rosicly is slowly becoming a new leader on the pitch. His presence is felt everywhere on the pitch. In WEFA Champs Group Stage alone he's got seven assists, more than one per game! But we've scored like 20+ goals in 6 games there so yeah

Things are looking good so far, team is more or less finished as well. I just want my European trophy. Truth to be told Eastern League seems to be the easiest of the four by a far margin. Can't wait to check England or Italy out, still haven't decided which one will it be.



As a little bonus, here's one hell of a cracker I've scored against Rekordmeister today. Easy 3-0 for me, heh. Don't mind those strange people talking in the snake tongue, I had England-Belgium match playing in the background



@MafiaMurderBag

Holy shit that's awesome. And why does this game look so much better than next-gen PES on this clip?!

I have given PES 2011 a go a few times but could never get into it. Maybe I should give it a go next? Bet I can find physical PC copy very cheap online...

That'd be another few monies spent on some silly games thanks to this thread!

 

[Madmac79]

You know, I had the crazy idea to start editing Pes 3 too. It seems like the perfect game for an humble project I have. Is the internal editor the only way? I hope not..

 

[Titch]

There is an editor so it does make things easier. As far as I know it's not possible to import anything from another OF so it would be a one man job to edit everything.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Holy shit that's awesome. And why does this game look so much better than next-gen PES on this clip?!

I have given PES 2011 a go a few times but could never get into it. Maybe I should give it a go next? Bet I can find physical PC copy very cheap online...

That'd be another few monies spent on some silly games thanks to this thread!

I got it for £1.50 from CeX haha, there's a few win stock. There's elements of it that i like and don't like, the AI is a lot of fun so far and coming into this from PES 2010, it's definitely a massive overhaul. I remember when it came out it was an evolution for PES although FIFA had implemented those mechanics for a couple of years, but 360 Passing and dribbling with Manual and Gamespeed options was unprecedented for PES.

Coupled with the slicker Menus, the debut of the drag and drop gameplan and better player models, it felt like PES had finally matured. It's amazing going back to this in retrospect and seeing where PES was finally going to get good again, 2 years later we'd get the incredible PES 2013.

What i don't like is the animations aren't as good and feel like they sometimes don't marry up with the power of the cross, pass or shot. This would be improved drastically over the next 2 games and sometimes the foul animation isn't correct for the direction you tackled someone.

 

[WhoAteMeDinner]

PES 6 Default Originals Challenge Update:

This is the ultimate challenge for any hardcore PES gamer who only ever plays five star or top player difficulty and as @miguelfcp and @mattmid said, the first few seasons are savage hard.

It has forced me to ruthless lengths to avoid game over in seasons one and two, as I mentioned the Playstaion 2 version of PES 6 is a rough and unfinished port of PC or PS 3 titles and the gameplay is full of extra obstacles to scoring and even dribbling well.

Have now resorted to the Mourinho-like cruel approach to player management. I am using the make player available for possible transfer option in the negotiation menu to get rid of several expensive dead wood players (Lothar, a default keeper has a salary of 415 pts), and it seems like this is a bit like putting your girlfriend on display in middle aisle of Lidl or Aldi for odd items. It attracts alot of cheapskate clubs with low offers and maybe bad intentions, but it gets shut of them fast.

PS: Don't do that to your girlfriend in Lidl or Aldi, have you seen the peeps who browse the middle aisles.