The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Rantboy]

This jockey lock on makes the game feel too arcade, regardless of how experienced we are. You can hold R2 and X and release the controller, look somewhere else, maybe use your other hand to switch the channel, see what's on TV, then switch it back to the game... probably the computer will just have gained a few yards, but your player is still there firmly locked on...

The AI player on your team walks backwards as the AI opponent walks forward with the ball and they become locked in that ridiculous dance while the ball is carried into your box.

Anyone else ever seen it happen?

Loved your expression: ridiculous dance!
And that's exactly what it is! Feels like Michael Jackson's "Beat It" music video, in the knives fight, doesn't it?

Or to compare with another videogame, it looks like Assassin's Creed. It's a one-on-one fight, while all the other enemies are watching. Every once in a while, someone comes in trying to double team (if you hold square button), but the CPU will deal with it quite easily, just like Ezio Auditore will execute any smart ass who tries to flank him

 

[pj_puttz]

Feels like Michael Jackson's "Beat It" music video, in the knives fight, doesn't it?

That's it!

Someone a lot less lazy than I am should post a video example of it with the "Beat It" music playing in the background.

 

[romagnoli]

This jockey lock on makes the game feel too arcade, regardless of how experienced we are. You can hold R2 and X and release the controller, look somewhere else, maybe use your other hand to switch the channel, see what's on TV, then switch it back to the game... probably the computer will just have gained a few yards, but your player is still there firmly locked on...

That's the fault of the CPU behaviour then. Contain is less arcadey as a concept than the relentless pressure sprinting we'd see in past FIFAs, for example. Your complaints are about the application, not the concept.

 

[Rantboy]

That's the fault of the CPU behaviour then. Contain is less arcadey as a concept than the relentless pressure sprinting we'd see in past FIFAs, for example. Your complaints are about the application, not the concept.

Well I have to say I don't like the concept either. I prefer no hold up play, revert it back to the old days!
Or if they must have a hold up system, at least make it more manual! It would be so much better if we used only R2 to surround the player and have full control (going left and right, or closing in) and then use X to get your foot in the challenge.
Of course if you do this, you're fried! The CPU will beat you 9 out of 10 times.

I think the hold up play in PES 2011 was ideal, because you had to hold X and push the analog stick to the direction of your goal, so while you did it you still had freedom to move your defender around the attacker.

 

[pj_puttz]

That's the fault of the CPU behaviour then. Contain is less arcadey as a concept than the relentless pressure sprinting we'd see in past FIFAs, for example. Your complaints are about the application, not the concept.

I'm just thinking out loud here really but it strikes me there are so many aspects of football that seem almost impossible to re-create in a game and this is just one of them.

Do you think companies like Konami should forget about trying to simulate things like "containing" and just focus on giving us the arcade-type football experience that they seemed to have pretty much mastered in the past? I mean how much time for "containing" is there in a 10 minute game of footy anyway? Even in a 30 minute game you cant recreate the ever changing pace of a real game of football.

I would love a hyper realistic football sim but is it really possible at the moment when you consider how complicated and random a game of football can be?

Konami seem to cram in one badly implemented idea after another and very few of them actually work the way they are supposed to. FIFA doesn't fare any better in that department.

I'm not saying they should scrap every new idea and give us an updated version of Sensible Soccer or something like it but it does make me wonder whether they should even bother with features like "jockeying" when they cant seem to get them to work properly on the current tech and they dont really fit into a computer game version of football anyway.

Maybe going back to arcade type football with better graphics and animations is the way to go for now? Focus on the gameplay and tone down trying to include certain elements of realism as they just dont work?

What do you think?

 

[romagnoli]

Personally in both FIFA and PES I don't use contain at all, except when I want to block a shot. In most all other cases I do it myself using jockey. For the most part I do fine (bearing in mind I play almost exclusively online nowadays), but when I get 'done' by a dribbler in recent football titles it feels less like I've been outwitted and more like there was nothing I could do to try and read that particular movement. In FIFA especially it's the ability of players to turn certain angles without losing any speed - the evils of blending animations for the sake of 360 movement. PES 2012 overdoes it too - I'd prefer something between 2011 and 2012, with the lower end dribblers having 2011's double touch turns. But it's the speed merchants that are the killer. It's just some guy wiggling the left stick, diagonally up and down, up and down. It's no more taxing than just running in a straight line. You should still need some sort of skill to use the best dribblers. I refuse to buy speed merchants out of principle.

 

[Ektor70]

personally i have been using containing playing on line since pes5... often i decide not to tackle and defend the space...with the likes of herny, adriano, messi it was the only way..get them to go on the wings and double mark them.

I don't see why containing should be turned into a pathetic lock on. it kills the beauty of both defending and attacking. just a plain wrong idea.

and quite frankly u can't tell that pressing 2 buttons at the same time (the furthest aways from each other...) and then releasing one of them keeping pressed the most complicated one in the whole f. pad is a nice way to configure something. Come on dude, we are all experienced players that probably started playing in early 80es but u gotta come up with a button configuration that is simple and intuitive.

I repeat my idea: right analog for shooting, i also would personally get rid fo the run button and use the left analog ala cars game, so u get a full range of running option. it would open up the game in the dribbling department without having to do silly tricks.

 

[romagnoli]

R2+X is simple and intuitive, yes. I would perhaps prefer left stick + X if anything, but apparently Konami struggled to get it to work reliably which is why they switched to R2+X. The buttons used to contain are not the problem in any way shape or form.

 

[Rantboy]

Yeah I agree the source of the problem is not the 2 buttons used.

What's really broken about the system is that the CPU is unbeatable on the ball. The AI bypasses any dribbling or ball control stats and just turns into a Messi dribbling inside your players.
Sometimes, with no exaggeration, I think the CPU could come with a guy like Mertesacker and dribble all my defense.

I think the success ratio of making a simple challenge with X is what is broken. Therefore, the only way to defend is to use contain and hope the CPU will make a wrong pass or shoot wide.
When you have a CPU vs CPU situation, like pj_puttz says, this "ridiculous dance" happens because even the CPU doesn't know how to deal with itself

 

[Northzzz]

If you have a 70 rated keeper make the occassional mistake, it's hardly a sound argument is it? Sure, it might look bad animation wise and you think, how did that happen, but it's just sour grapes if you can say OVERALL that keeper's are terrible.

I dunno man. The keeper's movement animations besides diving animations are absolutely terrible. Save animations are fine and obviously that's a big part of keeper animations but in truth it's not the only unique animations the keepers should have. Most of the problems with keepers come from their far from realistic movements (i.e. non saving animations). In other words they way they move around when in goal. They act like they have absolutely no awareness of what is happening until a player takes a shot and they are scripted to 'dive' at that moment. They do not act like they are reacting to the ball as an entity itself.

Jeez only yesterday the computer took a freekick and my keeper (Julio Cesar of Internazionale) jogged to the other side of the goal. His body was facing towards the corner flag if you can imagine. Like a player running towards that direction across the goal. There's a complete lack of enough side-stepping animations, they act like outfield players defending in goal and for the most part that is pretty terrible. In keeping with my point the freekick struck a player in the wall and the ball changed direction completely. The resulting diving save attempt looked great but in truth he should never have been over the other side of the goal the way he was. Goalkeepers should look to move when they know where the ball is going, the way they do in real life. Not the way it happened in this scenario where the goalkeeper just ran over to the other side of the goal as soon as the ball was struck.

I won the match though. I have no sour grapes in this instance.

 

[Northzzz]

So, bought this game back in October but wasn't playing because I was moving home and a lot of stuff... only started playing again now. And what can I say, I am + 1 here who's NOT happy with PES 2012/

This is the most frustrating game of the series, if we consider only single player mode. Multiplayer versus still can be a lot of fun, as the AI cheating element isn't there.

This certainly have been covered here before (sorry I'm just too lazy to track all the older posts) but I have to voice my discontent. The major hurdle playing this game on Top Player and Superstar difficulties is defending against the AI right?

I'm not asking to win every ball, but the ratio of successful challenges is a freaking joke... if you go in a challenge using only X, it will be either the CPU dribbling past you like you were made of air, or you will get the player's leg. From there, you will either have a free kick against you, or the CPU will half-stumble out of the challenge and keep running strong with the ball. The AI has the ability to do that, which I just don't see my players doing.

So, I looked everywhere in the web for tips and tutorials and it seems that only the hold up play will work on one-on-one situations. I don't like this one bit. Konami forces us to defend in one way only: hold up play. You have to hold the AI up, and use square while praying that your teammate will nick the ball away...

If you use R2 + R1 + X all together, I noticed your chance for a clean tackle increases a lot, but only if the CPU decides to dribble you. Otherwise, it will be a face-off that will give the AI all the time it needs to wait and pass the ball for another player.

This is the most stupid defensive system I've ever seen in a footie game. It feels so arcade, to mark with hold up, and you can even release the analog directions! Just hold R2 and X and your player locks to the attacker... and that's all there is to it! This game feels so "on rails" it's not even funny.

Was preparing myself to play a ML, but I think I'll spare myself of the frustration. Got FIFA12 in a console bundle and will definitely give it a go, after 3 years without playing a FIFA game. It cannot be as bad as PES this year, can it??

I do actually agree with this. As an attacker you feel like you have so much more advantage than the defender. You feel like you dictate things. I mean if you look at real football often what happens is that the attacker is in control but the defenders position is what stops the attacker going full speed at him. In PES this is not the case. As a defender you don't feel comfortable at all just being in the way. The CPU or other player will attack regardless and for the most part they will be successful because it's so easy to give away the foul. I'm not too bothered about giving away fouls by rashly going into make the tackle but i would very much like the balance to be in favour of the defender and not the attacker. This is actually why i liked PES 5 and Fifa 2008 a lot. The defender has the advantage. They dictate things and as an attacker you need to be smart about getting past them. As a defender you feel like your only option is to make a tackle, that's not right. You should have the ability to stand your ground by positioning yourself well making sure that it's the attacker who fears going into you, not you having to go into the attacker. It subsequently drives the game to be overly attacking.

The last sentence is the fulcrum for subsequent debates about the 'balance' of PES. I mean as an attacker you feel like you're being drawn towards the goal. It's been remarked many times that there's no real midfield play in this game and it is true. The action is basically at one end or the other. If the attacker had less of an advantage, as i suggest they should, then i think we'd constantly see players attacking only to lose the ball again and again. Personally i just don't feel comfortable passing the ball around, i feel much more comfortable attacking the defence. This is pretty backwards in my eyes. Konami need to address this and add more of a reason for the game to exist in the midfield and for you to hold onto the ball, passing it around and for your AI teammates to react in a way that is helpful to you (i.e. moving towards you looking for the pass to save you from losing possession).

In addition it's quite annoying though that the CPU seems to have this defender advantage but you as a real person do not at all. This is evident within local multiplayer matches where seemingly both players have more advantage attacking than defending. Putting it simply it's harder to score in football than anything else but PES seems to forget this. The CPU comes at you and you have to 'back off' but as an attacker the CPU never backs off because the game works perfectly in their favour. I find it to be a pretty big faux pas that you and the cpu don't play in the same manner. You can't defend with the precision of the CPU even if you try. The game forces you to back off whilst they come at you.

Basically what happens is an AI controlled player will bring the ball forward very slowly, usually approaching the opponents penalty box, and the AI controlled player in your team will lock into the jockeying animation thus backing off the player and allowing him to stroll unopposed into your box. The rest of your team just stand around watching this ridiculous scenario play out. This happens pretty often, at least once or twice per game I would say. No AI player EVER backs off when YOU go at them though, it only happens when two AI players go up against each other.

I just read this after i posted but this is pretty much it. 'Backing off'. The defender has too little of an advantage and it just results in unrealistic play.

That's the fault of the CPU behaviour then. Contain is less arcadey as a concept than the relentless pressure sprinting we'd see in past FIFAs, for example. Your complaints are about the application, not the concept.

Yeah mine are too. For what it is worth i wouldn't necessarily say the defender in past Fifa has the advantage as such. A real advantage would be getting between the player with the ball and where he wants to go. Your position is the advantage. You're stopping play by getting in the way. If you have to go towards him, then this isn't an advantage. It's doing so because you can either stand there and get 'skinned' or go to him and make a perfect tackle. The latter is why past Fifa's seemed were so unrealistic.

 

[Northzzz]

For what it's worth too i think that Fifa's new defending system is great. The reason i don't think it works is because attacking is still too perfect. Specifically dribbling. It's far too easy just to go round the man still. The defender's actions are actually quite realistic and the kind of thing i'm advocating.

 

[Jamezinho]

I fully agree that in relation to commentary and some other 'cultural' details the franchise could do with a team(s)who could offer some research and consultancy that would help achieve the goal of making the game that little more authentic.

I am talking to a fan of NBA2K series and I am sure you have noticed how the commentary is near perfect both in terms of it's response to the on-court action, as well as having some rather informative chatter to boot. I love the way they can talk about something like a Euro NBA division at depth, get interrupted by a n on-court event and offer detailed comment on the play and individual, then seamlessly go back to what they were talking about initially. I think Konami should look to achieve similar with the CL mode - allow the commentary team to make comment and discuss at length a player or a teams CL history - both in the current season and further back - while still being sharp enough to pick up on key events. Elsewhere, they should really pump up the presentation values in CL mode; let it flow like a broadcast with a studio presenter introducing the match before handing over to commentary, then the commentary in turn handing over to the studio presenter at half time who could summarise the first half with broadcast cuts before a break which builds up other fixtures. Maybe have Gabriel clarke or whatever his name is to pass on some pitch-side comment as well. Really make the whole mode broadcast authentic and tied in to the real life tournament like NBA Today is. Along with that, have a crowd that reacts to more of what happens in the game, be that a foul, great clearance, or dying minutes push to grab an important result. Make it the games premier selling point.

In other modes, just beef up the sound design, commentary and overall broadcast authenticity during matches that while not maybe having the same level of polish as that found in the CL mode, still immerse the player in the ''pretendo-verse'' which ML, BaL and other tournaments exist. Man, just look at MyPlayer in NBA in which you can spend your wages and it can improve form, abilities, chemistry with the team and even your rapport with your support. They already do little things in PES with big signings and alike, just increase the variety and make these more involving not to mention carrying some impact or consequence.

What strikes me about the commentary in NBA2K is how natural it sounds. It's kind of like listening to two basketball-mad guys chatting about the game, teams and players, rather than a staid commentary. It flows seamlessly, it's very informative, it's reactionary and captures the events of the game exactly as they happen. Also it's very funny....hearing the guys reactions to massive dunks and long shots, listening to them laughing between themselves.

Madden also achieves this feel to a lesser extent. I know that they don't give a script to their main commentator Cris Collinsworth, they just let him do his thing and create his own lines. That's how it should be. What's the point in hiring well known commentators and then telling them what to say? Surely the point is to let these people be themselves so the things you hear them say during a live TV broadcast are presented in game?

It baffles me that more clearly isn't made of the fact that the people Konami hire for commentary are professional commentators, yet they clearly don't write their own scripts as their FIFA counterparts do. It can't just be down to fitting the dialogue to the logic scripts, because there are far more natural ways to convey the same info.

As above, the difference in quality between Fifa and PES commentary is down to the freedom given to Martin Tyler and Clive Tyldesley. The result is very convincing, if still a little repetitive compared to NBA2K. I realise that the NBA and NFL are much smaller ponds compared to the sheer quantity of teams and players in a football game, so this kind of detail can be lavished upon the commentary, but there are lessons that can be learned from these games.

 

[romagnoli]

For what it's worth too i think that Fifa's new defending system is great. The reason i don't think it works is because attacking is still too perfect. Specifically dribbling. It's far too easy just to go round the man still. The defender's actions are actually quite realistic and the kind of thing i'm advocating.

That's quite probably a result of not working on the dribbling and first touch at the same time as the defending; not anticipating the extent of the shift that the changes in defending would cause. There's more to it than that, and there's more refinement that can be done with the defending itself, but the point is that this year is a good opportunity for FIFA to rein in a dribbling system intended to go up against sprint pressuring.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

For what it's worth too i think that Fifa's new defending system is great. The reason i don't think it works is because attacking is still too perfect. Specifically dribbling. It's far too easy just to go round the man still. The defender's actions are actually quite realistic and the kind of thing i'm advocating.

It's odd, i find dribbling in Fifa really difficult and often find i need to pass much more than i want to, PES i can dribble no problem and while it's a bit unrealistic how quick you can turn at crazy angles it's more fun which is how video games should be.

 

[Northzzz]

I just went into track record. Supposedly the amount of injuries i get per game is 0.01. In other words it means i have had 1 injury in the whole time that i've been playing. Crazy.

 

[preacher_matzi]

can we do something to tell Konami REDUCE THE SPEED MERCHANT technique?
I bought my game a week ago, it's imposible to play against those players. Online in 2011 was so addictive, althought the "Speed Merchants" were problematic but stopables with players like El Mourabaki, if you have good mark timing and good lag (heh).
I feel so dissapointed and a little regret of buying this game. What's the matter Konami ?!?!

 

[Srider]

Sorry mate, cant do it from work and cant be arsed doing it when I get home.

I'd rather spend the few short hours I get to play my PS3 these days playing a game I actually enjoy.

Have a few goes on BAL and you're bound to see it for yourself. The AI player on your team walks backwards as the AI opponent walks forward with the ball and they become locked in that ridiculous dance while the ball is carried into your box.

Anyone else ever seen it happen?

This happens at least once per match for me on superstar.

When it goes to that state, the ball carrier will always get to make a pass or take a shot untouched. Just another one of those things that brings immense frustration.

 

[Ektor70]

I checked the selling data. fifa is heading 10 million, pes is stuck at 2.7. konami will end up with the worst result ever since the ps2 time. since pes 2008 (1st game next gen) they have been losing some 5-6 million customers. But probably still enough customers to make tons of money considering they probably haven't spent much on pes 2012.

Yes, i am sure it is due to millions of people that don't see the depth in the gameplay department or the graphic whore who prefer the shines of fifa (which btw is a medriocre game visually).

pes 2013 is the turning point. probably half of those 2.7 million are pretty disappointed.

 

[Rantboy]

Konami is bringing it on themselves. I used to play FIFA from 94 to 99, when it got way too much Arcadey for my liking, and by that time I discovered Winning Eleven/ISS by Konami, which would later switch to the name PES. After more than a decade playing their games, for the first time I'm seriously bound to go back to FIFA.

The problem is Konami brings new things, fix some of them, but completely fuck up other things that were actually good! I cannot stand this anymore.

For instance, in PES 2011 they had sorted the accumulated fatigue spot on. Now if you turn this option on to play a League, it's unplayable! Your players will be aways below 50% fatigue after Matchday one!
And they never ever recover even if you rest them.

I was playing the Portuguese League with Porto, and my main players Hulk, Moutinho and Varela, were always tired, even after being rested 2 matches in a row. But check this out: the Portuguese League has a huge winter break, so the Calendar showed more than one month before the next fixture in January. But guess what? All my players were the same way as I last saw them in December, as if they ran a fucking Marathon the day before!

This can surely be written down as a bug? But Konami doesn't do anything to fix this, 3 patches and counting!...

For things like these, yes, they are losing customers and this franchise is near it's end. I would say more than half of those 2.7 million are pissed off with the game.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

I wouldn't say the franchise is near its end, it's still making them big money in Japan but sadly if sales in the UK continue to decline, then I can see it becoming an import title only over here. That said I don't know how much more sales would have to drop for that to happen.

I think the reception PES2013 gets will be hugely influential as to the games' long term future in the West.

 

[Jamezinho]

The British sales figures of PES2012, while still woeful, don't really tell the full story. Sales of PES still hold up fairly well compared to Fifa in other parts of the world, often out-selling it. There's no way that PES will ever become an import only title in the UK. Even though it has been grossly outsold by Fifa, it still sells in respectable numbers. Besides, the UK was such a huge market for Konami and is one of the world's most fanatical football nations, so Konami will want to claw their way back to prominence here.

 

[miktherag]

It would be nice if the audio team would stop the Japanese to English translations within the scripts. Now, I can't say for sure and admit I'm only guessing, but the script they put in front of Champion and Beglin must be a poorly translated script, hence the awkward almost nonsensical way they speak sometimes. I'll quote my all time favourites from PES2011;

"The order of the boot applied" and "He couldn't hit a barn door let alone the corner flag"!

Come on! they wouldn't just translate it. It's just sub-par writing combined with terrible editing

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

The British sales figures of PES2012, while still woeful, don't really tell the full story. Sales of PES still hold up fairly well compared to Fifa in other parts of the world, often out-selling it. There's no way that PES will ever become an import only title in the UK. Even though it has been grossly outsold by Fifa, it still sells in respectable numbers. Besides, the UK was such a huge market for Konami and is one of the world's most fanatical football nations, so Konami will want to claw their way back to prominence here.

Worldwide figures are supposed to be at 15 million for Fifa 12 and 5 million for PES 12, and while 5 million will be making Konami HUGE fortunes an extra 10 million units shifted for EA is incredible. Back on PS2/Xbox the difference used to be always around 1 or 2 million and PES managed to outsell Fifa once.

I wonder what the net profits are for both PES 2012 and Fifa 2012 as it's clear EA spend far more money on creating Fifa while Konami dont seem to spend much at all meaning net profit they could be very similar.

 

[Jamezinho]

Worldwide figures are supposed to be at 15 million for Fifa 12 and 5 million for PES 12, and while 5 million will be making Konami HUGE fortunes an extra 10 million units shifted for EA is incredible. Back on PS2/Xbox the difference used to be always around 1 or 2 million and PES managed to outsell Fifa once.

I wonder what the net profits are for both PES 2012 and Fifa 2012 as it's clear EA spend far more money on creating Fifa while Konami dont seem to spend much at all meaning net profit they could be very similar.

Most companies would be hugely satisfied to shift five million copies of their game. That is still a very healthy sales figure and Konami will be doing very well off the back of PES, considering the relatively small overheads. But as I've said before, it's time for Konami to heavily reinvest in PES. It's long overdue and hopefully (if the rumours are correct) that's exactly what they have been doing.

FIFA on the other hand has elevated itself into Call of Duty territory.....the automatic purchase every year that is on every casual gamer's 'to buy' list (which has been detrimental to the game's sim credentials). Konami cannot compete with it, they just have to do the best they can and improve on their own sales figures.

 

[arthurm]

it's time for Konami to heavily reinvest in PES. It's long overdue and hopefully (if the rumours are correct) that's exactly what they have been doing.

Please remind me, who/what are the origins of the rumours. Not wenb, I hope....

 

[Jamezinho]

Please remind me, who/what are the origins of the rumours. Not wenb, I hope....

It was alluded to here....

http://www.onlyproevolutions.com/2012/01/nice-shock-might-await-for-pes-2013.html

Also, I believe Dan Dawkins, the guy at PSM3 has spoken of big changes this year. Make of it what you will.

 

[n4p4st4]

hi, i've posted about this. I'm playing ML, using PesEdit 2.7 and jenkeys v5 tool, with Arsenal, but Gervinho and Wallcot are wingers and whoever plays at far part of the pitch (depending on the half) drops to the near side alongside the other winger.
tried the advice, but it still happens.
does this happen to anyone else? or is it something i'm doing wrong.

 

[Ektor70]

pes 2012 sold 2.7 million so far. don't know where u came up with the 5 million figures. maybe it shipped 5 million...fifa sold 9.something.

 

[Northzzz]

I've thought it before but i haven't said anything about it but does anybody feel like the game is just so scripted that it's actually scripted to react to which team is playing. I.E the game makes the one team better when playing against a lesser team.

I decided to test it out so i played a match as AC Milan (me) v Liverpool(CPU). I won the game 2-0. It was relatively easy if not a bit lucky of me not to concede and the computer went for a goal in the final stages of the match. I felt like i was the one dictating the game though.

Then i started another game. This time as Toulouse (me) v Liverpool (the exact same CPU team). Suddenly the CPU is unbelievably good. It's not a case of me being worse as i'm not getting any time on the ball to even judge. The CPU is now dictating play completely and ghosting past defenders (something i hate as you're so helpless in truth) with so much more ease than before. I stress they just feel better suddenly. With situations like when they ghost past you in the middle of the final third there isn't really a damn thing you can do about it.

This isn't the first time it has happened but the game seems to pretty much force this kind of style. Yeah this is pretty realistic and i won't argue against that but for a game it feels horrible. My skill level doesn't even feel like it's that much of a factor. I don't even feel like i can really play with Toulouse the kind of football i played with AC Milan as the game is constantly pulling me away from being able to do so. The game decides that AC Milan should have an easier time of things than Toulouse. I dunno it's not really enjoyable when i realise things like that.

I've tried to write this as concisely as possible but it'd be interesting to hear if other people feel the same way. At times the game feels like it really is just one big script acting itself out looking to get the 'correct' end result. Everything that goes on, all the odd looking things are just a result of this. When i begin to notice that my own skill level isn't such a big factor that's when i have to put the controller down and think about things.