The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Ektor70]

Well you certainly can't call it Evo-Web - that site consisted of people whose opinions were worth reading. I really do miss those days and resent those who have taken it away from us.

unfortunately when the game was good it was easier to discuss it.
Now that the game is pretty mediocre certain people think that if you don't like it you are an "idiot who either do not know how to play it or you don't understand football".

some people are really amusingly arrogant and biased these days, portraying themselves as the only human beings on earth who understand everything.

Truth is even my most konamish friend have long given up playing the Ai mess and dumb on line experience provided by pes 2012. well let's hope konami learned the lesson, when the accounting team will figure out how much clients thet are losing there will surely be a wake up call.

 

[dmxdex2020]

Why do people think a new engine will be a test run. It wont. As long as the engine from default has really good animations and physics it will be great.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Well you certainly can't call it Evo-Web - that site consisted of people whose opinions were worth reading. I really do miss those days and resent those who have taken it away from us.

I went to the trouble of posting a long message about how I think PES could improve by revamping the stamina system, partly because it's a positive thing to post in response to something I currently don't like about the series, and partly to try and divert the thread back into a games discussion where we can all share ideas but it got swamped by all this arguing.

I mean, even if people don't like my idea and say it's shit, offering reasons why, then fine,at least we'd have a games discussion again. But apparently that's not going to happen

 

[pj_puttz]

unfortunately when the game was good it was easier to discuss it.
Now that the game is pretty mediocre certain people think that if you don't like it you are an "idiot who either do not know how to play it or you don't understand football".

some people are really amusingly arrogant and biased these days, portraying themselves as the only human beings on earth who understand everything.

The way I see it some people want these forums to be a PES utopia where there is nothing but praise for the game and we all talk of how much we love Konami and PES day after day after day.

When a thread like this pops up these people react very badly to it. I'll never understand why, I'm not sure they know themselves to be honest.

DMX: Surely a new engine would have to be considered a test run? Getting the animations and physics right is not that easy, as Konami and EA have shown over the last couple of decades!

LTFC: I agree the stamina system needs an overhaul but I would worry about the game becoming too pedestrian under the strict system you suggest. Small bursts of speed would be very realistic in theory but translating that into a football game would be pretty difficult without slowing the entire experience down quite a bit. We're trying to condense 90 minutes of football into 10 or 15 minutes when playing PES so it's always going to have to be played at a much higher tempo than real life.

If the existing stamina bar and stats were more accurately observed by the code it would be not too bad as it is. Unfortunately the AI ignores the stats completely and the "speed merchants" are allowed to run constantly with no ill effects.
The stats in PES are only irritating because the game consistently ignores them.

 

[romagnoli]

LTFC, we just don't have the right personnel in here anymore to have the sorts of discussions we would about FIFA or PES in the past. I mean, look at Ektor's response for christ's sake. It's enough to make you want to give up breathing.

Fair play for giving it a go with the stamina model idea (one which you posted last year as well as I recall?), and I do agree it's an area that needs work. But there are a fair few people in here who you feel are about as useful as the calories in a pint of beer. They'll keep up the WENB fracas, distracting from your idea, and at the same time don't show the sort of capacity for logic or insight to be able to contribute to your discussion anyway.

 

[superleeds1]

This thread is becoming shitty and a bit personal chaps.
See post #1513 by Flaw3d Genuis.
I think hes got it spot on.
However if the personal stuff kicks off any further, someone will end up banned for sure.
But 45000+ views and still going strong, so people dont spoil it.

 

[Nobleknight]

I'm worried about PES future as most of the realistic things we want EA acheived already:
1-Two tier stamina system
2-Specific stats for each position
3-Animations
4-Goalkeeping
5-Ball physics
6-Better CPU AI
7-More realistic Career mode
8-Atmosphere
9-Commentary

sure EA will get better in those areas while PES is trying to figure out how to put them in the game

PES needs alot of work ,the things that I don't like about PES:
1-Stamina model
2-Goalkeepers
3-overall AI (I expected more and better coding )
4-Ball physics
5-ML became boring with those cutscenes
6-CPU AI plays the same
7-Animations
8-Atmosphere
9-Commentary
10-Presentation
11-Wasting time copying more than 300 file to get licensed teams (PS3 )
12-Instability of gameplay at different settings

If I wrote that post at WENB ,I'd have been shot by many users

 

[pj_puttz]

LTFC, we just don't have the right personnel in here anymore to have the sorts of discussions we would about FIFA or PES in the past. I mean, look at Ektor's response for christ's sake. It's enough to make you want to give up breathing.

Fair play for giving it a go with the stamina model idea (one which you posted last year as well as I recall?), and I do agree it's an area that needs work. But there are a fair few people in here who you feel are about as useful as the calories in a pint of beer. They'll keep up the WENB fracas, distracting from your idea, and at the same time don't show the sort of capacity for logic or insight to be able to contribute to your discussion anyway.

So what did that post contribute to the discussion exactly?

Comments like that are more likely to keep the arguments going than put a stop to them.

There are 40 odd pages or very good discussion on this thread but again you choose to ignore them in favour of stirring up more arguments with comments like "the right personnel".

Try practicing what you preach mate.

 

[Robbery]

Now that the game is pretty mediocre certain people think that if you don't like it you are an "idiot who either do not know how to play it or you don't understand football".

On the other hand if you like it people think you are very easy to please and you love arcadish football and you are an -idiot who either do not know how a simulation based game should look like or you don't understand football-

It is always the same, always black or white, and i don't think it makes sense to talk about a game day in and day out over month. Everything has already been said and it's just a game so play it or leave it like every other game.

 

[Ektor70]

LTFC, we just don't have the right personnel in here anymore to have the sorts of discussions we would about FIFA or PES in the past. I mean, look at Ektor's response for christ's sake. It's enough to make you want to give up breathing.

Fair play for giving it a go with the stamina model idea (one which you posted last year as well as I recall?), and I do agree it's an area that needs work. But there are a fair few people in here who you feel are about as useful as the calories in a pint of beer. They'll keep up the WENB fracas, distracting from your idea, and at the same time don't show the sort of capacity for logic or insight to be able to contribute to your discussion anyway.

so what about my response? nothing wrong in my response? i see you have something personal against me. i don't care personally.

 

[info0]

I'm worried about PES future as most of the realistic things we want EA acheived already:
1-Two tier stamina system
2-Specific stats for each position
3-Animations
4-Goalkeeping
5-Ball physics
6-Better CPU AI
7-More realistic Career mode
8-Atmosphere
9-Commentary

Sorry, but I am laughing hard as hell on two points here...

FIFA AI is WORST shit I have ever encountered in football game. Constant 90 min pressure, ping pong passing so Norwich and the likes play like Barcelona having got 90+ passing accuracy, broken defenders and side defenders, because hey it's FIFA (that shit wasn't fixed for 3 years of CONSTANT telling EA to fix the issue), certain 100% way to score goal in FIFA still exsits, opponents AI never goes on attack. I haven't conceded more than 10 goals a season playing on legendary... It's broken. I can't tell why people boast FIFA AI so much as it's rubbish.

Atmosphere? What about it? On PES I can clearly hear chants, on FIFA? Not a bloody chance of that happening. Commentary is ace though .

The rest I agree with. Goalkeepers, animations, licenses, etc, but vs AI I will pick any PES over FIFA... It's just more fun (ok, FIFA 11 on PC gave me joy for 1.5 year and would play it even now over FIFA 12 ).

Btw do people realize how many things Rutter and his team stole from Pro Evo 3-6? A lot. The team however, improved them and added FIFA flavour to the mix. However, FIFA 12 is for me, a step back from great FIFA 08-FIFA 10. FIFA 11 was bringing the first blow, but was still playable, FIFA 12 I just couldn't get into it. Sold it fast not even trying online mode even once

PES needs to improve and even Seabass knows that well. Will we see new game engine next year? Don't think so personally.

 

[romagnoli]

so what about my response? nothing wrong in my response? i see you have something personal against me. i don't care personally.

Only the standard and content of your posting. It's certainly not personal, I don't have the faintest idea who you are. I'm sure you're lovely.

And no, Putz, my post isn't what keeps arguments going. Relentlessly saying that there are imaginary forum members who don't want PES to progress is far more culpable than that. Some of the people you (among others) have waded in and given shit or leapt to conclusions about are people who contribute far more to discussions about one or more of the football titles than most ever will.

 

[Nobleknight]

Sorry, but I am laughing hard as hell on two points here...

FIFA AI is WORST shit I have ever encountered in football game. Constant 90 min pressure, ping pong passing so Norwich and the likes play like Barcelona having got 90+ passing accuracy, broken defenders and side defenders, because hey it's FIFA (that shit wasn't fixed for 3 years of CONSTANT telling EA to fix the issue), certain 100% way to score goal in FIFA still exsits, opponents AI never goes on attack. I haven't conceded more than 10 goals a season playing on legendary... It's broken. I can't tell why people boast FIFA AI so much as it's rubbish.

Atmosphere? What about it? On PES I can clearly hear chants, on FIFA? Not a bloody chance of that happening. Commentary is ace though .

The rest I agree with. Goalkeepers, animations, licenses, etc, but vs AI I will pick any PES over FIFA... It's just more fun (ok, FIFA 11 on PC gave me joy for 1.5 year and would play it even now over FIFA 12 ).

Btw do people realize how many things Rutter and his team stole from Pro Evo 3-6? A lot. The team however, improved them and added FIFA flavour to the mix. However, FIFA 12 is for me, a step back from great FIFA 08-FIFA 10. FIFA 11 was bringing the first blow, but was still playable, FIFA 12 I just couldn't get into it. Sold it fast not even trying online mode even once

PES needs to improve and even Seabass knows that well. Will we see new game engine next year? Don't think so personally.

and ur post made me laugh too
EA have different teams one for the consoles and the other for PC
so that's why consoles version are different and better than the PC

 

[romagnoli]

info0 - the problem with the AI in FIFA is that it works on percentages which don't alter significantly per player. It annoys me when people say it's scripted because that's the exact opposite of the problem - it's unscripted but the situation the AI has to assess seldom changes, and the accuracy of the AI is (literally) inhuman. The end result feels scripted though, which is why it's important to be able to tell the difference.

I do agree that the AI in PES is far better. It does need refining but a hell of a lot of groundwork was done this year. The state of the online game in FIFA is mostly down to the AI being so positionally rigid - the best example being not squeezing the back line when there's no wide threat, leaving two strikers against two centre backs while the full backs keep their distance.

Nobleknight - the PC team just ports the console gameplay. FIFA 11 PC was FIFA 10 console but 12 PC is up to date.

 

[info0]

and ur post made me laugh too
EA have different teams one for the consoles and the other for PC
so that's why consoles version are different and better than the PC

FIFA 12 is the same on PC as it is on console bro.

FIFA 11 on PC was testbed for porting NG engine from FIFA 10 to PC. With success I might say. We haven't got such gameplay in FIFA since FIFA 2005 :lol:

So was grateful as hell to EA Sports, but FIFA 12 as PES 2012 (without patches mind you) is just unplayable piece of crap (and the ones who made sliders should be shot down, they DO NOT WORK as intended).

The sliders discussion is vast on EA boards btw and people tend to complain about them. Give us proper gameplay EA, no need for sliders then (or lock them so you can't go down on some of them to cheat).

Both games have different approach and like many said, both can't be compared really. Both play different and feel different.

Plus on PC PES 2012 + yair25 or jenkey gameplay + Firepatch/PSD/PESEdit/Smoke patch turns this into great game. Enjoyable too (but like I said before, without any patches the game is not good. Too many issues to even post).

 

[Nobleknight]

romagnoli- sorry I was wrong about that


info0- PES2012 with patches or without is a complete mess for me
I had the console ver before trading it
Tried it on pc with gameplay patches is the same boring version

no patch can fix PES2012 crap engine or the stupid AI

-PES defencive system is worse than fifa ,there's no tackling button and they still have the automated homing missle
-also ,defenders that leave the striker alone when you make a cross
-about gameplay sliders ,its the best addition in football games history
-about teams playing like barca in fifa(although they dont) is better than playing inter's mourinho every match(parking the bus)

 

[pj_puttz]

And no, Putz, my post isn't what keeps arguments going. Relentlessly saying that there are imaginary forum members who don't want PES to progress is far more culpable than that. Some of the people you (among others) have waded in and given shit or leapt to conclusions about are people who contribute far more to discussions about one or more of the football titles than most ever will.

Comments like you just made about "the right personnel" are obviously going to piss people off and you know it.

You clearly dont think I am part of "the right personnel" because I'm willing to pull you (among others) up for their bullshit posts. On certain other forums I'm sure I'd be banned but this forum allows me to express my view freely and that's why I keep coming back. Other forums which have been mentioned clearly dont do this and that is why they are getting some abuse from people in here.

If you can show me where I or anyone else suggested there are forum members who "dont want PES to progress" I'd be very interested to read it as I dont recall anyone saying anything of the sort. Then again those sort of baseless accusations are exactly what I have come to expect from the self professed PES Elite Squad that people like you and Curdstar seem to think you are a part of.

You look upon everyone else as some sort of underclass you can patronise and ridicule when all we are doing is posting on a "Not Happy With PES 2012" thread and suggesting things which we believe need to change. The very existence of this thread seems to enrage you and people like you, probably because you believe only you and your little inner circle have the right to criticise PES and the rest of us should just shut up and take what we are given.

You are an elitist, arrogant, self important clique and nothing any of you has said on this thread has convinced me otherwise.

How about, just for a change, you actually address some of the many points people have raised about PES 2012 on this thread instead of trying to belittle our opinions and constantly tell us all how much more important than the rest of us you are?

Just a thought.

Merry Christmas one and all.

 

[Ektor70]

Only the standard and content of your posting. It's certainly not personal, I don't have the faintest idea who you are. I'm sure you're lovely.

And no, Putz, my post isn't what keeps arguments going. Relentlessly saying that there are imaginary forum members who don't want PES to progress is far more culpable than that. Some of the people you (among others) have waded in and given shit or leapt to conclusions about are people who contribute far more to discussions about one or more of the football titles than most ever will.

you do exactly what wenb people do. you attack the people, not their ideas about the game. just like that curdstar who came here to address as a racist someone who was talking about pes AI. I understand you are related to WENB and it pissed you off the people opinion of the blog are very very low.

game AI is scripted in the very bad meaning of the word: to cover for poor attacking AI game cheats transforming average players into messi. to cover up for poor defensive AI and bad keepers it just put 9 players in the box. Just an unfair and ultimately dull game experience.

 

[Ameppe]

you do exactly what wenb people do. you attack the people, not their ideas about the game. just like that curdstar who came here to address as a racist someone who was talking about pes AI. I understand you are related to WENB and it pissed you off the people opinion of the blog are very very low.

game AI is scripted in the very bad meaning of the word: to cover for poor attacking AI game cheats transforming average players into messi. to cover up for poor defensive AI and bad keepers it just put 9 players in the box. Just an unfair and ultimately dull game experience.

just my experience
most of time CPU AI is very good but it's a pity Konami introduced a lot of cheating in offline tournaments and master league

 

[romagnoli]

Putz - what's baffling is you continue to think I'm against this thread in principle or that my talking down to you is out of fear that people might have something negative to say about PES. It's charming really, especially considering how clear it should be from my posts that it's the standard of thinking, rather than the subject matter itself, that is the problem.


A lot of it has escalated from the WENB diatribes - just seeing the gaps in logic and the clear lack of reasoning from a small but vocal core of new posters in here (and I do remember posting a few months ago that the number of new posters who'd come over from there was very much a bad thing, and so it has turned out) it was clear that some discussions weren't even worth picking up because there'd then have to be 5 or 6 further posts just explaining things that shouldn't need to be drawn out. The argument that Konami should be ditching WENB rather than taking them on, for example, seemed to hinge on the idea that WENB wasn't working out for them. Anyone with an iota of common sense could see that a community site giving that quantity of coverage and publicity at no cost is clearly not an example of something that needs to be ditched. Nobody seems to have suggested, even as devil's advocate, that the current state of PES's sales might be even worse without the marketing WENB has provided. Which isn't me aggrandising WENB - I know that not playing to the gallery here indicates a vested interest either in PES or in WENB, so apparently this needs to be said so the new guys can keep up - but pointing out how rational people would think about the situation in the hope that someone might learn something.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of WENB, if you think about it from Konami's view it makes sense that their only real UK (or is it Europe?) community manager, Jon Murphy, is going to want to work with people he has a good relationship with, ideally a fairly well known site with a forum and the ability to actually source feedback from the community. We've had people in here saying that Konami have been shirking from the community rather than actually engaging with them. And yet they've just taken on a fan site to work for them in some capacity, something more than the token gesture of interaction that was PESFan. The site they've taken on spent a lot of last year arranging playtests for other communities, and are likely to be doing the same this year.


The idea that they aren't giving the right feedback too - the feedback thread at WENB is open to everyone. It's not like Adam and Alan trawl through the feedback thread, delete anything negative and then ban the poster involved. There's plenty of feedback over there that is much the same as what is said here. There is a lot of guff in there too, as with any feedback/suggestion area. The idea that this is a site that should be listened to for feedback is not one I disagree with at all - but to get sanctimonious about WENB and hold this place up is a bit rich in certain cases.


My elitism is quite deliberate so I take that as a compliment, as with the points about arrogance. It allows me to filter through threads like this and pick out the useful bits. Slim pickings, it has to be said, even going back 20 pages or so.

The idea you've called out any of my posts as bullshit, mind, is a real christmas cracker.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

 

[Jamezinho]

 

[arthurm]

Keep it up guys. This is better than Neighbours.

 

[fanolato]

If only most of us cared as much about some real issues instead of a videogame.

Still, very entertaining back and forth there...

Regarding FIFA's AI, While it's rigid and it's not as aware because the lack of script as PES, when it comes to playing against the AI, FIFA has given me a lot of fun this year. The sliders have been very helpful, and to me local multiplayer and Manager mode are king. This year FIFA has achieved a much better game in those to areas.

PES has one thing I love and it's the tactical intricacies and you immediately see it's impact. This one of the few things PES needs to keep. Again PES should rethink it's game though. Every aspect. Sometimes things are much too obvious, sometimes the AI is to overpowering because of the scripts. I'd rather a fine tuned % game like FIFA than scripts.

Something that isn't mentioned about PES that I like, while it's graphic and not very important, it's the player models. At least in PC with/o the blur they look great and player are very identifiable from wide cam.

 

[romagnoli]

Keep it up guys. This is better than Neighbours.

I blame oil prices. Lassiters has seen its last fire.

 

[muffinmak]

Anyone thinks the tactical part of PES2012 is very superficial?

I mean unless you make some very naive and suicidal formations, the game mechanics just doesn't allow the tactical side of things to kick into good effect.

 

[Ektor70]

Anyone thinks the tactical part of PES2012 is very superficial?

I mean unless you make some very naive and suicidal formations, the game mechanics just doesn't allow the tactical side of things to kick into good effect.

+1. pes 2011 tactical side was really good, especially on line, u could stop barça and real noobs with the right tactic. in pes 2012 regardless of the tactic each game feels the same.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

So what did that post contribute to the discussion exactly?

Comments like that are more likely to keep the arguments going than put a stop to them.

There are 40 odd pages or very good discussion on this thread but again you choose to ignore them in favour of stirring up more arguments with comments like "the right personnel".

Try practicing what you preach mate.

Spot on, im amazed that the 40 odd pages of good criticism is now getting ignored by a few that want to focus on the last 10 or so pages about WENB.

There is no doubt that the demise of PES has led to a demise in every forum, this forum is no different to the amount of complaints on other PES sites difference is on here people tend to see through peoples agenda's and speak up about it. One thing is for sure the PES community is nothing like what it was back in the day of the Pro Evo Network but again that's down to the game being so poor which has had a huge knock on effect.

 

[muffinmak]

not even that, the shady collision/foul detection renders your keeping of team shape obsolete. No matter how disciplined you are, if you have a skilled enough opponent running at you, constantly cutting back near the wings, there is nothing much you could do. He could still run rings round your 2+ defenders single-handedly even when you jockey and hold your ground. You'd think that after getting past the first defender at the byline, he will run into your second defender (who's in jockey position and standing firm) and you win the ball, but no, he could clip past him too frequently and wreak all sorts of havoc.

 

[info0]

Flaw3d in your signature you don't have ShollyM PES6. Wondering how you would rate that.

For me, the best football game ever made with gameplay v2... Forget about FIFA or new Pro games. PES6 still has magic I like to rediscover. Sure it's old and you can see it, but some things are untouchable by new series (stamina when used up, player can't pass correctly or shoot on target... Ah nostalgia ).

But PES 2012 despite being wrong in some ways, offers fun. On PC where u can mod it so much, it can become even great, but why the hell must modders like jenkey/yair make up for what KONAMI should have done?! This is wrong.

KONAMI need to sort their priorities out. I believe there is more football fans than Metal Gear Solid/Rising fans altogether and yet, KONAMI does not treat PES as number 1 title... :rolleyes:

Like I said above, FIFA core gameplay (ask Rutter too for confirmation) takes much from past Pro Evo titles. You can clearly feel and see it in FIFA 08-10. FIFA 11 took the step to go into SIM territory, FIFA 12 even improves on that. So those 2 are quite different and feel different. Pretty much like PES 2011 was... :/

So yeah, time to read those first 30 or 40 pages again, make a list of various proper opinions, make a Document file and send it to Murphy, WENB (even if you hate them, they might help out), KONAMI HQ in Japan (yes, they know English).

Maybe, just maybe, it will trigger positive reaction. This worked for FIFA, maybe it will work with PES series too