The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[pj_puttz]

PES 2012: The DIY football game! Out now for PC!

For the small sum of 40 of your English pounds we give you some broken, almost unplayable code and allow YOU yes YOU to hack into that code and try to make the game half decent!

Imagine the challenge as you try fix our shambolic AI! The thrill as you stay awake for 12 hours straight trying to disable the blatant scripting! The joy as you change page upon page of unrealistic stats in an attempt to make them more realistic! Excited yet? How about the entire DAYS you'll spend play-testing all of your experimental tweaks? We sacked our ENTIRE testing department JUST FOR YOU to experience the thrill of painstakingly ironing out bugs in a badly out of date game engine!

It's the latest evolutionary concept from Seabass! We fuck it, you fix it!

IN SHOPS NOW!

KONAMI: DIY FOOTBALL 2012......BECAUSE WE CANT BE ARSED ANYMORE.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

PES 2012: The DIY football game! Out now for PC!

For the small sum of 40 of your English pounds we give you some broken, almost unplayable code and allow YOU yes YOU to hack into that code and try to make the game half decent!

Imagine the challenge as you try fix our shambolic AI! The thrill as you stay awake for 12 hours straight trying to disable the blatant scripting! The joy as you change page upon page of unrealistic stats in an attempt to make them more realistic! Excited yet? How about the entire DAYS you'll spend play-testing all of your experimental tweaks? We sacked our ENTIRE testing department JUST FOR YOU to experience the thrill of painstakingly ironing out bugs in a badly out of date game engine!

It's the latest evolutionary concept from Seabass! We fuck it, you fix it!

IN SHOPS NOW!

KONAMI: DIY FOOTBALL 2012......BECAUSE WE CANT BE ARSED ANYMORE.

What a game it is.....9/10 From fansites no problem!

 

[jpf7]

Something that just hit me about playing online. Surely Konami's default stats ruin online. A ton of them just being plain wrong/stupidly conceived. You alluded to the Arshavin example and he is definitely somebody who i went in and toned his stats down a bit when i first got the game.

It is just about bearable to play online friendly matches but some of the stats do break the game and ruin the experience. There should really be an option to share user data edited stats online so we don't have to put up with Konami's bullshit stats.

 

[P34SEMM]

PES 2012: The DIY football game! Out now for PC!

For the small sum of 40 of your English pounds we give you some broken, almost unplayable code and allow YOU yes YOU to hack into that code and try to make the game half decent!

Imagine the challenge as you try fix our shambolic AI! The thrill as you stay awake for 12 hours straight trying to disable the blatant scripting! The joy as you change page upon page of unrealistic stats in an attempt to make them more realistic! Excited yet? How about the entire DAYS you'll spend play-testing all of your experimental tweaks? We sacked our ENTIRE testing department JUST FOR YOU to experience the thrill of painstakingly ironing out bugs in a badly out of date game engine!

It's the latest evolutionary concept from Seabass! We fuck it, you fix it!

IN SHOPS NOW!

KONAMI: DIY FOOTBALL 2012......BECAUSE WE CANT BE ARSED ANYMORE.

 

[P34SEMM]

Is it just me or.........

Anyone notice how many crosses you put in with the ball going straight for your player for a free header. He dives. He misses the ball entirely.

Just me?

 

[Northzzz]

I thought the guy who made that patch for the PC version included that 'disable scripts' option as a joke? It's a jest on the community, and something of a placebo button, surely? There's no way he burrowed that deeply into the source code. A week or two ago I read one of the PC enthusiasts---not sure who---say that the patch introduced the 'keeper swinging off the bar' animation as well, which it certainly didn't.

Yeah i read that too. The animation thing was probably definitely not true. I haven't even seen it pre or post mod.

I'm far too critical to let a placebo affect me in my opinion. All i can say is that i can name numerous times that the computer decided to turn it on in the last minute against me before i modded it and since then not once has it happened as obviously as before. I have absolutely no idea either what the guy could have done to get it like this to be honest. I can't remember exactly but before i put the patch on i used to complain a lot on these forums about computer scripting issues, examples include me being 4-0 up against Columbia only for them to win 5-4 or the time i was playing against Belgium as some team and they were awful all game but decided to score 3 goals in the last 8 minutes including twice when they literally had the most overly perfect dribbling to get round 3 of my defenders to score. Since i put the patch on i haven't felt the need to complain once about something like that happening and scorelines are fair and reflect the more dominate team (which is debatably not really like football actually is but it's a lot less frustrating).

Honestly i will hold back giving you you a definitive answer because i've no idea what the guy does to the game. It could be true it could not be true. All i know is that a combination of factors like altering ball physics and game speed seems to have done something significant.

 

[Northzzz]

Is it just me or.........

Anyone notice how many crosses you put in with the ball going straight for your player for a free header. He dives. He misses the ball entirely.

Just me?

In my opinion this is Konami's tactic of making it harder to score from crosses. Knowing that getting a good cross in is unbelievably easy they seem to have made heading really contextualised. I don't have that much of an issue with that though. I want heading to be contextualised and require good timing as it's quite hard in real life to get a good connection under pressure. What i don't appreciate is players diving so early it looks silly or how often i, or the computer, gets a free header with a well timed press of the shot button and the player subsequently misses the target by miles when there is no way he should. Like the ball loops up despite hitting it with the front of the head, not the top or back. Personally i take bigger issue at the way players act when the ball is coming in. If the ball is coming in at head height then i've got no idea why players attempt diving headers judging the ball to be at knee height. AGAIN it's an anticipation issue we see in PES. Players having no idea where the ball is, or second guessing where it might be going.

Still, getting a good cross in shouldn't be so easy, it should depends entirely on speed, angle, ball bobble, pressure and as well as this crosses shouldn't have exactly the same trajectory everytime. Likewise heading shouldn't be so wayward when you time it just fine or the player act really weird when looking to get a header in. It just feels and looks really poor.

 

[jpf7]

Is it just me or.........

Anyone notice how many crosses you put in with the ball going straight for your player for a free header. He dives. He misses the ball entirely.

Just me?

This happens to me at least once every single match. I actually start to celebrate and then realise its happened again....

 

[Keith Houchen]

Yeah i read that too. The animation thing was probably definitely not true. I haven't even seen it pre or post mod.

I'm far too critical to let a placebo affect me in my opinion [...] i've no idea what the guy does to the game. It could be true it could not be true. All i know is that a combination of factors like altering ball physics and game speed seems to have done something significant.

I've played loads of the PS3 version now (which I like a lot btw), enough to be intrigued by the talk about the Jenkey-patched PC version to try it out.

Hopefully I'll be able to make an informed judgement about the no-scripting thing. It sounds unlikely to me, but as you say the times when the CPU kicks into overdrive are so obvious that it must be equally obvious if they're removed by whatever means.

But I'm in the wrong thread, really, seeing as I'm "happy with PES2012". The weird thing is that I agree with 99% of the issues raised in this thread, but the game still seems to be more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Luisao82]

I hardly think it's fantastic with PC mods either as they really don't solve that many of the fundmanetal issues at all but it's at least twice as good and half as frustrating to play when you can turn scripting off and alter the physics and speed of the game.

I disagree. I'm quite happy with the modded PC version of PES 2012.
It's in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

 

[Ern Dog]

I initially thought FIFA12 was just as 'alive' too, and in terms of the CPU, it is better than PES. But problems arise when YOU have the ball. It all feels so static to me now.

I've noticed in FIFA that my build up play usually involves the same kind of passing lanes, same types of moves.

I started a career mode on the weekend and I am finding this to be the case now. Every game feels the same as the last, players are always in the same positions making the same movements, very stale. I think I will just play exhibitions now, change teams every match to keep it more interesting. Quite disappointed, I havnt played a good manager mode since PES6, was looking forward to taking my team from League 2 all the way to Premiership glory but its too boring. One thing I REALLY liked about the FIFA career mode though was deadline day, that was awesome, made the transfer market alot of fun.
After having FIFA for a while now makes me realise how absolutely abysmal PES's presentation is. Its time for another massive overhaul.

 

[pj_puttz]

Is it just me or.........

Anyone notice how many crosses you put in with the ball going straight for your player for a free header. He dives. He misses the ball entirely.

Just me?

Definitely noticed that too mate. The heading seems pretty random to me, even when I win a header cleanly it seems to bounce almost straight up into the air off my head. The diving headers are just weird. I guess it's meant to look dramatic but it just looks stupid. I actually think that's a big part of Konami's problem with PES, they're so hell bent on trying to recreate the drama of football they've made it unrecognisable from the real game. Football creates it's own drama if you let it unfold naturally! We simply dont need the contrived bullshit Konami forces into the game every year!

What bugs me more than the headers though is when your player has the ball at his feet, completely under control, but when you press the button to shoot he slides on his arse and taps the ball with his toe. WHY?

It actually annoys me MORE when those pathetic shots beat the keeper and go in! It looks so unbelieveably crappy I dont even want the goal!

 

[P34SEMM]

Scoring has always been magical in all versions of PES - Until PES12

Its so random and I feel I have no control on where the ball goes that the magic is gone.

 

[henrys hand]

Scoring has always been magical in all versions of PES - Until PES12

It's so random and I feel I have no control on where the ball goes that the magic is gone.

"Magic" is the key-word here.

But what is this "magic"?

I played PES 5 and PES 2012 one after the other to find out just what is missing in PES 2012 that is there in PES 5, and here are my observations:

- The ball has a little more freedom when dribbling. When the opponent doesn't control the ball well and there's a few inches between him and the ball you can actually go for it and get the ball. In PES 2012 that seems not possible, the ball seems to belong to the player, you can't get inbetween.

- Dribbling works better in PES 5, when having the ball, you can do a sideway-move or when slowing down you get more control and keep the ball closer and actually skin a defender with it. To trick out a defender with simple dribbling-moves or changes of speed is hardly possible in PES 2012.

- The goalkeeper is way better than in PES 2012, he has cat-like movements and actually keeps hold of the ball and doesn't parry it away nearly as much as in PES 2012. It's unbelievable how a goalkeeper from a 2005-game is way better than one from PES 2012.

- Shooting is more free, you can actually decide the direction of the shot and it has more verve as well as variety. In PES 2012 shooting is lame and scripted, you can't even decide direction reliably. Obviously it is that way to hide the weaknesses of the goalkeepers.

- Active AI. This was the major feature for PES 2012 and guess what it's better in PES 5, the movements in PES 5 are more sensible and aimed at achieving something.

- Players feel more alive, they are more reactive and you have the ability to actually do something with them, you can fight the other players when trying to get hold of a ball that is somewhat loose, you push. The physicality works better. In PES 2012 the bodies hit on each other and some repellent force pushes them away from each other and that is it then or a foul occurs.

- Rails. They are in PES 5 as well as in PES 2012, when off-the-ball, but they seem to be less intrusive in PES 5. It's unbelievable that there are more (and more strict) rails in PES 2012 than in PES 5.

- Scripting in PES 5 is not as heavy as in PES 2012. Sure it's there as well, shortly before the end of the first or second half the team that is behind pushes more than ever, plays better than ever, but you have always the feeling that you can work against the script if you invest more into your play. In PES 2012 it seems completely out of hand.


Verdict:
PES 2011 and PES 2012 are the closest you can get to PES 5's gameplay-magic on this generation, but it's unbelievable that PES 5 is still better in most aspects. The only aspects where PES 2011/2012 are better are the more free passing, analogue-control and 360-degree-movement, and of course graphics/lighting/resolution...

P.S.:I'm playing PES 5 with 480p and 4:3, that way gameplay is not too fast, similar to speed 0 in PES 2012.

 

[jpf7]

One thing I seriously don't understand is why the formation in the tactics menu seems to have so little bearing on the formation on the pitch in this game.

I have seen the most ridiculously high line defense and midfield formations and then the team plays with a deep defense the entire match... wtf?!

Surely the whole point of being able to move our players around to exactly where we want is that they should then operate there?

Instead they just play wherever the Konami CPU and retarded AI says they should and completely ignores where we have placed them on the pitch.

I am just baffled by this.

 

[jpf7]

One thing I seriously don't understand is why the formation in the tactics menu seems to have so little bearing on the formation on the pitch in this game.

I have seen the most ridiculously high line defense formations and then the team plays with a deep defense the entire match... wtf?!

Surely the whole point of being able to move our players around to exactly where we want is that they should then operate there?

Instead they just play wherever the Konami CPU and retarded AI says they should and completely ignores where we have placed them on the pitch.

I am just baffled by this.

The other thing I meant to add is that it seems due to this, I can never get my team to play with a truly deep defense.

The first sign of a run from a star player towards my defense (& holding midfield) and all my players start to not only run forward and desert the deep positions I have set them in but they ALSO part in the middle to create an unchallenged road for messi/ronaldo etc to just run down the middle and blast it in.

I think I've played my last game - it is a glitchy, under-developed, on-rails nightmare of a football game.

It actually feels to me like how FIFA used to on ps1 and ps2 - to think I used to laugh at that game, knowing that PES was so much better. It is so very sad what PES has become.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

I started a career mode on the weekend and I am finding this to be the case now. Every game feels the same as the last, players are always in the same positions making the same movements, very stale. I think I will just play exhibitions now, change teams every match to keep it more interesting. Quite disappointed, I havnt played a good manager mode since PES6, was looking forward to taking my team from League 2 all the way to Premiership glory but its too boring. One thing I REALLY liked about the FIFA career mode though was deadline day, that was awesome, made the transfer market alot of fun.
After having FIFA for a while now makes me realise how absolutely abysmal PES's presentation is. Its time for another massive overhaul.

Sadly, yep, I'm finding this to be the case with FIFA. But at least I'm pressing on with my career mode in bits and pieces, the odd game here and there. I haven't even contemplated putting PES2012 in since last week. EA have done a lot of good things with the career mode this year, it's much much better than PES2012's ML. The deadline day idea is awesome, splitting the final day into hourly updates with a dramatic '24' style clock counting down and a ticker showing you who's going where. Really nice. They've also patched CM so you can now choose time of day/weather etc should it not be overly realistic, which is fantastic too. And I also love the youth team system in FIFA this year. You hire scouts, send them out to a region, they bring back reports of players aged 15-16 with their potential development, you choose to sign them as youth players, then develop them, then choose to release them or sign them into the first team squad. Brilliant.

PES is absolutely atrocious this year in particular regarding game modes and presentation. Really awful. In terms of presentation, why they can't even get a decent soundtrack for the European market is bizarre.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Scoring has always been magical in all versions of PES - Until PES12

Its so random and I feel I have no control on where the ball goes that the magic is gone.

Even in PES2011 I have a great sense of sastisfaction when the ball hits the back of the net, but oddly not in PES2012. I guess it's mainly because I just haven't enjoyed the rest of the game leading up to that moment. Kinda dampens the mood somewhat!

And shooting can be random. I can tap the shoot button so little that it fills about 5% of the power bar and he'll roll a soft finish under the keeper just as I'd intended, the next moment I'll do the same move and he'll power the ball at 100mph into the net. Makes no sense sometimes.

 

[pj_puttz]

"Magic" is the key-word here.

But what is this "magic"?

I played PES 5 and PES 2012 one after the other to find out just what is missing in PES 2012 that is there in PES 5, and here are my observations:

- The ball has a little more freedom when dribbling. When the opponent doesn't control the ball well and there's a few inches between him and the ball you can actually go for it and get the ball. In PES 2012 that seems not possible, the ball seems to belong to the player, you can't get inbetween.

- Dribbling works better in PES 5, when having the ball, you can do a sideway-move or when slowing down you get more control and keep the ball closer and actually skin a defender with it. To trick out a defender with simple dribbling-moves or changes of speed is hardly possible in PES 2012.

- The goalkeeper is way better than in PES 2012, he has cat-like movements and actually keeps hold of the ball and doesn't parry it away nearly as much as in PES 2012. It's unbelievable how a goalkeeper from a 2005-game is way better than one from PES 2012.

- Shooting is more free, you can actually decide the direction of the shot and it has more verve as well as variety. In PES 2012 shooting is lame and scripted, you can't even decide direction reliably. Obviously it is that way to hide the weaknesses of the goalkeepers.

- Active AI. This was the major feature for PES 2012 and guess what it's better in PES 5, the movements in PES 5 are more sensible and aimed at achieving something.

- Players feel more alive, they are more reactive and you have the ability to actually do something with them, you can fight the other players when trying to get hold of a ball that is somewhat loose, you push. The physicality works better. In PES 2012 the bodies hit on each other and some repellent force pushes them away from each other and that is it then or a foul occurs.

- Rails. They are in PES 5 as well as in PES 2012, when off-the-ball, but they seem to be less intrusive in PES 5. It's unbelievable that there are more (and more strict) rails in PES 2012 than in PES 5.

- Scripting in PES 5 is not as heavy as in PES 2012. Sure it's there as well, shortly before the end of the first or second half the team that is behind pushes more than ever, plays better than ever, but you have always the feeling that you can work against the script if you invest more into your play. In PES 2012 it seems completely out of hand.


Verdict:
PES 2011 and PES 2012 are the closest you can get to PES 5's gameplay-magic on this generation, but it's unbelievable that PES 5 is still better in most aspects. The only aspects where PES 2011/2012 are better are the more free passing, analogue-control and 360-degree-movement, and of course graphics/lighting/resolution...

P.S.:I'm playing PES 5 with 480p and 4:3, that way gameplay is not too fast, similar to speed 0 in PES 2012.

Nice comparison mate.

Doesn't it just depress the ever loving shit out of you that a game that was released in October 2005 is technically better than PES 2012 which was released a mere few weeks ago?

Konami have better tech, more disk space and (I'm guessing) a bigger budget than back in 2005 yet they STILL manage to fuck up the best football game on the market and hand the advantage on a plate to their only competitor. Which itself is no world beater.

Only blind brand loyalty and the complete lack of any decent competition has kept PES going over the last few years. In any other business in the world it would have sunk like the petrified turd it is and Seabass and his cronies would have been given the big boot up the rectum they so clearly deserve. In fact after the monstrosity that was PES 2008 they'd be lucky to still be in a job in my opinion.

What other game on the market can you say was BETTER over 10 years ago than it's current incarnation?

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

What other game on the market can you say was BETTER over 10 years ago than it's current incarnation?

MGS, from Konami as well

 

[pj_puttz]

MGS, from Konami as well

Fair enough!

That may put a slight dampener on my point but at the same time it enhances my view that Konami dont have a fucking clue!

 

[Northzzz]

Nice comparison mate.

Doesn't it just depress the ever loving shit out of you that a game that was released in October 2005 is technically better than PES 2012 which was released a mere few weeks ago?

Konami have better tech, more disk space and (I'm guessing) a bigger budget than back in 2005 yet they STILL manage to fuck up the best football game on the market and hand the advantage on a plate to their only competitor. Which itself is no world beater.

Only blind brand loyalty and the complete lack of any decent competition has kept PES going over the last few years. In any other business in the world it would have sunk like the petrified turd it is and Seabass and his cronies would have been given the big boot up the rectum they so clearly deserve. In fact after the monstrosity that was PES 2008 they'd be lucky to still be in a job in my opinion.

What other game on the market can you say was BETTER over 10 years ago than it's current incarnation?

Final Fantasy IX is better than Final Fantasy XIII. I agree with you though. Seabass is a firm favourite and if you listen to Jimmy he has this great philosophy for the game. It's a shame that the philosophy hasn't matched the technical aspects of the game well enough for the past 6 years. Seriously they either need to introduce a new engine or get a new team involved. The whole series is becoming so stale and it's pretty evident that less and less people are buying into the PES brand (i'm not comparing it with Fifa sales, i'm judging it on its own sales). Things need to shake up. The music, the presentation, the sounds, the animations, the training mode, the career mode, the atmosphere, they just don't cut it anymore and look how many of us seem to be bothered by this. They need a shake up. They need to win back core football gamers. The way they established the series in the first fucking place. The worst thing they could do would be look to make a game like Fifa. That market has gone and people aren't going to switch over to PES unless EA make some kind of monumental cock-up, and considering they seem to have achieved a certain formula now they won't slip back into the dark days of Fifa. I think something is going to happen because for once PES isn't selling as well in Japan as it once did. I think 'stale' is a significant word here because despite us all being PES fans it's obvious that we're far less interested in the game than with previous games. I played PES 2010 far more than i've played PES 2012 and that game was way more flawed.

Also i like all the MGS games. They're rad and MGS4 has been my favourite ps3 game thus far. It is basically one big story with bits of gameplay though. Sports games are a different kettle of fish here though. I can't think of one other sports series, or even sport represented in video games, that isn't better now than it was 10 years ago. Maybe Track and Field?

 

[pj_puttz]

Final Fantasy IX is better than Final Fantasy VIII. I agree with you though.

I get the distinct feeling there are going to be a few of these! I asked for it I suppose! Suffice to say there aren't many game franchises which get progressively worse year on year or completely fail to embrace the new tech on offer.

I agree completely Northzzz, the series needs a fresh start and it definitely needs a new team to work on it. Thanks for everything Seabass but you have clearly lost your way and it's time to move on.

There is no excuse for the absolutely rank rotten front end PES 2012 has or the continual piss poor execution of things like the Master League and BAL. If they can give us a decent engine with a decent front end then work from there they should do OK.

They need to go back to basics NOW. I dont think I can stomach another half arsed Seabass PES next year. That would probably finish me off as a PES player for good.

 

[Northzzz]

I get the distinct feeling there are going to be a few of these! I asked for it I suppose! Suffice to say there aren't many game franchises which get progressively worse year on year or completely fail to embrace the new tech on offer.

I agree completely Northzzz, the series needs a fresh start and it definitely needs a new team to work on it. Thanks for everything Seabass but you have clearly lost your way and it's time to move on.

There is no excuse for the absolutely rank rotten front end PES 2012 has or the continual piss poor execution of things like the Master League and BAL. If they can give us a decent engine with a decent front end then work from there they should do OK.

They need to go back to basics NOW. I dont think I can stomach another half arsed Seabass PES next year. That would probably finish me off as a PES player for good.

I meant FF13 by the way, not FF8. Damn Roman numerals.

 

[pj_puttz]

I meant FF13 by the way, not FF8. Damn Roman numerals.

Bloody Romans!

What have they ever done for us eh?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Bloody Romans!

What have they ever done for us eh?

 

[pj_puttz]

Cheers Jimmy!

Good to know I'm not the only Python fan in here!

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

Nah mate i like snakes as well especiually Pythons

 

[pj_puttz]

Nah mate i like snakes as well especiually Pythons

Are you taking the hissssss.....?

 

[Ameppe]

MGS, from Konami as well

silent hill, still Konami
don't you see a pattern?