The Drama Thread

[Ameppe]

Alan I personally would not trust you or the 'PES Messiah' et al., to be brutally and 100% honest pre-release. No conspiracy just basic psychology.

1) you're all ultra-hardcore PES fans so naturally only want to see good in the game

&

2) Konami are doing you a massive favour in letting you in on info and early builds etc. You wouldn't want to risk that by pissing them off hence the "POSITIVITY" cult of your site. Simply it's positivity for access. We all understand this, no need to be defensive - we get where you all are coming from.

ok, but what about lami, romagnoli, rodelero that played the game and were happy with that?
You don't trust them, too?

 

[Thespeedster84]

ok, but what about lami, romagnoli, rodelero that played the game and were happy with that?
You don't trust them, too?

I guess they are quite surprised by "constant direct sprint forward after each player making ground pass" on the gamescom code vids mate. I believe you can understand the context here

As, some of us, they do not want that happen in final build. Important though, most raising this issue have never tried to judge the final build.

 

[Rob92]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I'm sorry but this is total BS. What the hell is this guy on, I mean come on, yes he does a lot for the community and great that he invited the community to his house to play the preview code, but what gives him the right to be so abusive to people who are raising a issue which in the eyes of those people is important.

If the game is ruined (which I don't think it will be), it won't be the communities fault, it will Konami's fault as they are the ones who made it.

Anyhow, look forward to the 2 demos that are released!

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I still remember you going to a playtest for Ashes Cricket 09 and telling us a load of bollocks, saying things like it looked "gorgeous" when it looked absolute shit.
Also a load of shit about how batting was authentic and forced you to play realistically, and that there were bat-pads and edges were realistic among loads of other praise for the game.

All bullshit. Then you went postal about it on me when I called you out on it!

To be honest, I don't blame Adam for banning people, it's getting ridiculous how it's the only thing people are talking about - any discussion about other observations gets drowned out by repeated moaning about the same thing, for pages on end.

 

[Zakov]

Man, PES has such a following that the extent of this bug is discussed in a manner that even Microsoft would be proud of.

At first I was a bit concerned, but not that bothered by it. Since Lami and the others that played it clarified that it doesn't hinder the game experience, I thought to myself, good. Wait for the demo, is what they all say and I agree.

But now seeing all these new members sign up, claiming that they got banned from WENB around the same time and jump the gun here even further really tickles me to the core. Good move Lami for turning this whole fiasco into a Drama thread. XD

 

[Gab_]

Zakov: Lami said it wasn't like this in the build he played, not that it was like this and it was all good.

 

[henrys hand]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I just got banned permanently from WENB's forum kitanamedia.

For what? For pointing out the running-forward-after every pass-bug in the gamescom-showfloor-build.

What happened when I wrote there that it can be clearly seen in the videos?

Summary:

Alan (an admin): Don't believe the videos, everything is alright, it's just people doing the 1-2-passing over and over.

Me: Well the AI does it too over and over...

Alan: Don't believe the videos, we have played the game and it's no problem.

Me: I'm talking about the gamescom-showfloor-build, a later build than the preview-code-build you played. Maybe a bug crawled into a later build.

Alan: It's not a bug, when you play it you won't perceive as bad.

Me: Holymoly, are you telling me it's a gamedesign-decision. How can it not be bad? It's plain wrong for CB's to run forward after every pass and it happens in all and every single gamescom-video.

Alan: You can't judge the game on a video...

Me: Why not, we see it with our very eyes, it happens everytime over and over, it's clearly a bug or a very bad gamedesign decision.

Alan and other WENB-staff: Wait for the demo and then write again..

Me: Why wait for the demo, the demo is based on preview-code, the gamescom-build is a later one, if the bug or bad gamedesign-decision crawled in later, how should the demo relieve me? We have to criticize this now so that this bug/gamedesign-decision doesn't reach final version...

Alan and other WENB-staff: You are rude, negative and don't listen to us who have played the game, you judge based on videos...

Me: How can it be rude to point out a real bug/bad gamedesign-decision that goes against everything I know of real football? I can even replicate the bug in PES 2011 by pressing LB and A at the same time and my CB acts in the same way, passing then running forward for a few meters and then to return to his position... It's clear that LB and A got somehow hardcoded to happen all the time without pressing the combination...

Alan: This is a game, it can't fully reflect real football, everything is alright.

Me:

[... Then what happens is that a few sources tell us that the bug is neither in preview-code nor in review-code]

Adam and Alan: Now the haters and I mean henrys hand and co. have to eat their words and apologize.

Me: Apologize for what? For pointing out a real bug/bad gamedesign? I'm just glad the bug is not in review-code, I hope we can now start to heal the split in the community over this, it's just strange that the WENB-staff asked us to overlook a clear problem and to not believe what our very eyes see in every single gamescom-video.
Now we can move on and concentrate on the mediocre goalkeepers.

Adam and Alan: See, the haters are not able to apologize, they are proud and rude.... long diatribes putting down the moaners....

Me: Trying to reply... not possible... permanent ban!


I have to add, throughout all the discussion I remained calm, honest, reasonable and polite, I never used any profane language or got emotional, and yet I received a permanent ban.



Verdict: Apparently the WENB-staff (espescially Adam and Alan) feel about PES 2012 like a mother over its son, he can commit heinous crimes with proof on video but the mother can't, won't, don't want to see it and fight anyone saying something different.
It's immature behavior, it's a game in development, bugs happen and bad gamedesign decisions, it's our task as football-fans to state our opinion to see things go the right route, we all want that our yearly PES-game gets better... and so we want that PES 2012 that is so promising should not be suffering from such an obvious bug/bad gamedesign-decision.
The WENB-staff obviously can't accept independent thinking nor constructive criticism, it's a shame really.

 

[yair25]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

henry's hand you are a very annoying person so i think you deserve that

 

[dannyfc2]

Lol, christ almighty. I don't understand the logic of some of these PES 'fans', what exactly is there to be so defensive about? "IT'S FINE IT'S FINE, HONESTLY I'VE PLAYED IT'S FINE, THE VIDEOS ARE LYING, TRUST ME STOP CRITICISING IT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED IT!!!"

The fact is most of us on here want a sim. The fact is the movement of the players is far too aggressive, not too active, too aggressive. This is undeniably. Defenders do not charge forward at every pass they make, it's so illogical I can't even comprehend how people don't deem it a problem. The fact is this isn't just L1+X abuse, as we've seen evidence of the CPU mimicking the behavior in near enough every video.

Now, this is so very clearly either a bug or a poor design feature. I hazard a guess it's the former, going by earlier videos and Konami's understanding of the game. If thats the case then it's essential they are informed as much as possible, so a patch can be released if it remains in the full version. If it's the latter than unfortunately it's a deeper problem, but still if Konami are aware of it early enough maybe there's still time to reign it in slightly.

What doesn't help is burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge it. What worries me the most is those condemning it don't even understand the problem, hence Curdstar posting the earlier video that only re-enforces Gab's point. I think a lot rather than accept and help reactify an issue see it as an attack on 'their' game, which is absolutely ridiculous and hence the defensive attitude as if it was a slight on themselves.

Whats even more worrying is those that acknowledge it and see no problem with it's inclusion. To me that first and foremost shows a basic lack of understanding of the fundamentals of football, and secondly is entirely irrelevant anyway. Even if the likes of Adam etc. do not feel it's an issue, the FACT is that MOST of the PES community do.

 

[superleeds1]

Hmmm , so few people have played it , yet so many people have seriously
strong opinions and convictions.
Everyone will know for sure soon enough.

 

[dannyfc2]

Hmmm , so few people have played it , yet so many people have seriously
strong opinions and convictions.
Everyone will know for sure soon enough.

Whats that got to do with anything? Why do I have to play it when I can clearly see there's a problem? If it's fixed in later builds, fantastic, but since we have zero proof of that it's absolutely worth discussing...

 

[RAMAXWY]

I guess the thread title says it all

 

[dannyfc2]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

The word 'haters' should be reserved for 12 year old girls and Cher Lloyd fans. Such a petty, childish response to constructive criticism.

 

[superleeds1]

Whats that got to do with anything? Why do I have to play it when I can clearly see there's a problem? If it's fixed in later builds, fantastic, but since we have zero proof of that it's absolutely worth discussing...

Need to get hands on, not just see few videos to make minds up.No problem in discussing it.

 

[Ameppe]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

@henry, you continued to talk over, and over, and over this forward run for the past two days on wenb,after they explained their opinion about the bug they warned you and many others but it seems you don't care them. It's their website and if they think you are being annoying(and they are not the only one to think that way, me and many others on wenb think the same), they have the right to ban you.

 

[dannyfc2]

Need to get hands on, not just see few videos to make minds up.No problem in discussing it.

Nah I disagree, aspects like dribbling/shooting/passing can only ever be appreciated through playing I'll give you, and it'd be senseless to judge them on videos. But AI movement and running is just as it looks. I don't see how I'd suddenly accept my CB bombing forward at every opportunity once I'm playing it tbh.

 

[jammiedodger]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Henrys hand, Alan from WENB was right on the one point. you are judging a game on a few clips you have seen. It is not possible to know how good a game is or whether something is a bug if you have not experienced it yourself by playing it. Maybe he shouldn't have banned you but you should have just put your opinion across and left it at that. But you carried on to a point where you just became annoying.

 

[_anderson]

Also can't understand why some people are now taking pre-gamescom footage as evidence and refuse to take gamescom vids as such! I mean, cmon, isn't that why we're ALL saying that surely it's a bug? It wasn't there before but it's clearly there now??

God, why complicate something that's pretty simple... Sigh...

 

[Zakov]

Zakov: Lami said it wasn't like this in the build he played, not that it was like this and it was all good.

Never implied he said it was all good.
From what Rom said it didn't hinder his experience, and FreMM(who played the Gamescom build) also didn't seem to notice it too much.

 

[wabak]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

The word 'haters' should be reserved for 12 year old girls and Cher Lloyd fans. Such a petty, childish response to constructive criticism.

CHER LLOYD IS A PRINCESS AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INSULT HER

 

[Gab_]

Never implied he said it was all good.
From what Rom said it didn't hinder his experience, and FreMM(who played the Gamescom build) also didn't seem to notice it too much.

You implied that he played a version of the code where this happened. Just like you just now implied that Rom did too, he didn't.

FreMM played it and wasn't bothered with it. So what? A lot of us are bothered with these runs. We don't have to hold a gamepad in our hands to see the issue.

 

[superleeds1]

Nah I disagree, aspects like dribbling/shooting/passing can only ever be appreciated through playing I'll give you, and it'd be senseless to judge them on videos. But AI movement and running is just as it looks. I don't see how I'd suddenly accept my CB bombing forward at every opportunity once I'm playing it tbh.

Well it makes me think that tactical tweaks in the pre game setup would most likely resolve that issue.
Cant help thinking that anyone who has had the opportunity to get hands on
has not yet been able to get into the depths of the game,and spend time experimenting with tactics and formations,zonal and man marking etc.

 

[henrys hand]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Henrys hand, Alan from WENB was right on the one point. you are judging a game on a few clips you have seen. It is not possible to know how good a game is or whether something is a bug if you have not experienced it yourself by playing it. Maybe he shouldn't have banned you but you should have just put your opinion across and left it at that. But you carried on to a point where you just became annoying.

The thing is, it's not a few clips, the "bug" is in all and every single gamescom-video, even the video filmed and uploaded by Asim, every pass is followed by this run.

The reason why the discussion didn't die on the first day is that the WENB-staff handled the problem completely wrong: Instead of saying: Strange, in our preview-code we didn't see the bug , so it's probably just a gamescom-showfloor-build-bug, we will contact Konami to ask what went wrong or to see it fixed..." they went on full denial-mode putting down any moaners and other forum-writers reacted to that following the "company-line".

Of course confronted with such a magnitude of denial the discussion couldn't stop.

The permanent ban though was not for discussing the topic, otherwise a third of kitanamedia's writers would have to be banned. It was for me daring to mention WENB's denial-mode on this topic.

 

[Rodelero]

I'm slightly stunned by how touchy the entire community has got over this, on both sides.

We have various information to go off. We have a ton of videos, some from E3, some from Gamescom, some from Konami. We have a ton of impressions, some from E3, some from Gamescom booths, some from Gamescom review code, some from Preview Code.

There are two cases where we've got evidence of this supposed issue - every gamescom video, and some gamescom booth impressions. I think it's quite clear what people are talking about when they say there is a problem, or a bug. For me, if the game actually did work like those videos imply, in that every single pass was followed by a straight sprint forward, then that would be ridiculous. For me, there is something in the AI very clearly different between the Gamescom videos and ALL of the other videos, and what I played, and what is talked about in all the previews. A minority of people who've played it at gamescom say that this issue is there too.

For me that's all there is to it, and until the demo comes out, we're not going to find anything more.

 

[Ameppe]

I'm slightly stunned by how touchy the entire community has got over this, on both sides.

We have various information to go off. We have a ton of videos, some from E3, some from Gamescom, some from Konami. We have a ton of impressions, some from E3, some from Gamescom booths, some from Gamescom review code, some from Preview Code.

There are two cases where we've got evidence of this supposed issue - every gamescom video, and some gamescom booth impressions. I think it's quite clear what people are talking about when they say there is a problem, or a bug. For me, if the game actually did work like those videos imply, in that every single pass was followed by a straight sprint forward, then that would be ridiculous. For me, there is something in the AI very clearly different between the Gamescom videos and ALL of the other videos, and what I played, and what is talked about in all the previews. A minority of people who've played it at gamescom say that this issue is there too.

For me that's all there is to it, and until the demo comes out, we're not going to find anything more.

well said "Viral Marketing Agent"

 

[_anderson]

I'm slightly stunned by how touchy the entire community has got over this, on both sides.

We have various information to go off. We have a ton of videos, some from E3, some from Gamescom, some from Konami. We have a ton of impressions, some from E3, some from Gamescom booths, some from Gamescom review code, some from Preview Code.

There are two cases where we've got evidence of this supposed issue - every gamescom video, and some gamescom booth impressions. I think it's quite clear what people are talking about when they say there is a problem, or a bug. For me, if the game actually did work like those videos imply, in that every single pass was followed by a straight sprint forward, then that would be ridiculous. For me, there is something in the AI very clearly different between the Gamescom videos and ALL of the other videos, and what I played, and what is talked about in all the previews. A minority of people who've played it at gamescom say that this issue is there too.

For me that's all there is to it, and until the demo comes out, we're not going to find anything more.

The two demos will tell us if it's a bug or not, 'cause apparently the first demo is preview code, and second demo is most likely final code. It's quite possible it isn't there in the demo coming next week, but we still have to worry about the next demo. If the 2nd demo is final code and it isn't there, we can all sigh in relief. On the other hand if it is there, oh boy, it's all going to start all over again...

 

[superleeds1]

Thanks for clarifying that Rodelero , my sentiment is that I am going to reserve my impressions of the game until I have had my hands on it.
In the meantime have appreciated reading up Your own and Lami initial
impressions.

 

[TanMak]

Crazy stuff, we (with our very own eyes) see CBs & sundry run after every single pass regardless of positioning etc (something you just won't see in a football) and are told don't worry it feels right or no trust us. Come on, surely the defence of the game cannot reach this new found low.

The running issue is there, clearly as can be ... fix it before release. Period. No I will not trust someone's word over my own eyes. Videos of a more advanced code without this issue or comment from PES prod is the solution.

 

[ollywolly]

Now would be a pretty good time for John Murphy/Konami to come out with some kind of statement. Depending on what is said it could really solve the whole issue and calm everyone down.

My 2 cents:
This arguement that it isn't so noticable when playing and doesn't affect the enjoyment of the game doesn't hold with me. I guess it depends on your play style and I and many others will simply not have the option of playing passes between our back four. secondly, even if it didn't affect my enjoyment, it's plainly not a simulation of real football, which is what Konami are striving for. What if every time I have a corner, one of my players decides to lie down on the far side of the penalty box. It may not affect the game because I have plenty of other players to attack the cross, but its plainly wrong and shouldn't be in the game.

Others are saying that we should be happy that we are getting active AI, that bringing up this issue could make Konami completely tone down the active AI to the detriment of the game. Thats not what anyone is saying as far as I can see. Most people have praised the active AI when its making dummy runs, running into space, overlapping and yes, when the context is right active AI should involve playing a pass and sprinting forward into space, but not every single pass and especially not from your defensive minded players. As others have said, the AI in the preview code seems just fine. In fact people from both sides of the arguement seem to agree that the preview code AI is fine, so whats wrong with wanting it like that again insted of like it is at Gamescom?

Yet another arguement is that this constant forward sprinting is good because it opens up so many options for a player, but remember you can activate a pass and sprint yourself if you really need it, so if this automated trigger is removed pass and sprinters can still play the way they want and people who prefer slower build-up can also play the way they want. win win no?

 

[BobbyBox]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I just got banned permanently from WENB's forum kitanamedia.

For what? For pointing out the running-forward-after every pass-bug in the gamescom-showfloor-build.

What happened when I wrote there that it can be clearly seen in the videos?

Summary:

Alan (an admin): Don't believe the videos, everything is alright, it's just people doing the 1-2-passing over and over.

Me: Well the AI does it too over and over...

Alan: Don't believe the videos, we have played the game and it's no problem.

Me: I'm talking about the gamescom-showfloor-build, a later build than the preview-code-build you played. Maybe a bug crawled into a later build.

Alan: It's not a bug, when you play it you won't perceive as bad.

Me: Holymoly, are you telling me it's a gamedesign-decision. How can it not be bad? It's plain wrong for CB's to run forward after every pass and it happens in all and every single gamescom-video.

Alan: You can't judge the game on a video...

Me: Why not, we see it with our very eyes, it happens everytime over and over, it's clearly a bug or a very bad gamedesign decision.

Alan and other WENB-staff: Wait for the demo and then write again..

Me: Why wait for the demo, the demo is based on preview-code, the gamescom-build is a later one, if the bug or bad gamedesign-decision crawled in later, how should the demo relieve me? We have to criticize this now so that this bug/gamedesign-decision doesn't reach final version...

Alan and other WENB-staff: You are rude, negative and don't listen to us who have played the game, you judge based on videos...

Me: How can it be rude to point out a real bug/bad gamedesign-decision that goes against everything I know of real football? I can even replicate the bug in PES 2011 by pressing LB and A at the same time and my CB acts in the same way, passing then running forward for a few meters and then to return to his position... It's clear that LB and A got somehow hardcoded to happen all the time without pressing the combination...

Alan: This is a game, it can't fully reflect real football, everything is alright.

Me:

[... Then what happens is that a few sources tell us that the bug is neither in preview-code nor in review-code]

Adam and Alan: Now the haters and I mean henrys hand and co. have to eat their words and apologize.

Me: Apologize for what? For pointing out a real bug/bad gamedesign? I'm just glad the bug is not in review-code, I hope we can now start to heal the split in the community over this, it's just strange that the WENB-staff asked us to overlook a clear problem and to not believe what our very eyes see in every single gamescom-video.
Now we can move on and concentrate on the mediocre goalkeepers.

Adam and Alan: See, the haters are not able to apologize, they are proud and rude.... long diatribes putting down the moaners....

Me: Trying to reply... not possible... permanent ban!


I have to add, throughout all the discussion I remained calm, honest, reasonable and polite, I never used any profane language or got emotional, and yet I received a permanent ban.



Verdict: Apparently the WENB-staff (espescially Adam and Alan) feel about PES 2012 like a mother over its son, he can commit heinous crimes with proof on video but the mother can't, won't, don't want to see it and fight anyone saying something different.
It's immature behavior, it's a game in development, bugs happen and bad gamedesign decisions, it's our task as football-fans to state our opinion to see things go the right route, we all want that our yearly PES-game gets better... and so we want that PES 2012 that is so promising should not be suffering from such an obvious bug/bad gamedesign-decision.
The WENB-staff obviously can't accept independent thinking nor constructive criticism, it's a shame really.

I feel for you man, anybody in their right mind can see that it is just insane.

 

[wabak]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Why does Cher Lloyd have to be mentioned in a PES thread FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

I'm seriously hoping that this will be a celebration in FIFA 12.

Spoiler

Her dance... but if somehow they have tweaked the teammate celebrations so we all bust into this move at the same time... o m g