The Drama Thread

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romagnoli said:
The main problem for me with all of this is that, as each new piece of evidence comes out, various people's stances or interpretations of the evidence seem to distort in order to best fit their argument. I do like the WENB guys from my interactions with them, but for the life of me can't find any consistency in the arguments that have been made - and I am trying.

People are being verbally attacked for calling it a bug, yet are slapped in the face with pre-GC videos showing it wasn't happening back then (which would suggest it's a bug).

People are told to trust people they don't know rather than their own eyes and several full match videos against computer or human - which IMO is beyond the pale. It seems mental to me to demand that people believe strangers above video evidence, unless the video is clearly very selective, and the evidence we have now spans so many different GC videos. I think retronym tried to turn that argument around on me at some point and say, 'well why do you think we should believe you then? Don't you see what you're doing' etc etc (he was too busy being a bellend to think rationally). The point is that I do want people to judge for themselves, which is why I caveat so much of my impressions and account for taste, and similarly trust my (not his) community to use their knowledge of me to put things in context. I'm also someone who very much believes in empirical evidence, and over an hour's worth of footage of players sprinting forward after passing absolutely shits on any number of people saying 'it's not there' or 'you don't notice it when playing'. For pre-GC videos to then be used in favour of the people saying 'don't believe the videos over me', adds to the sense of inconsistency.


People have been told it's definitely just people spamming L1 or R2, which to be fair is what it looks like at first glance and I thought the same - but we can see the CPU doing the same.

Arguments have been made that it isn't a problem when you play with it, but a lot of the same people said it wasn't even there in the videos to begin with - which it clearly is, and not because of mitigating circumstances like silly tactical setups or maxed out attacking mentality.

I guess my point is that I still don't know what WENB's stance is on the evidence itself, only that however they interpret the evidence it will be to back the notion that it isn't a problem. As someone with a science degree, I just can't agree that that's the way to go about things - the evidence should shape the conclusion, never the other way around - and the sheer confusion and incredulity of various boards, which I feel the above flip flopping of arguments has multiplied, would back that stance.

I'm not saying I think WENB are being deceitful at all - just that they seem sure that it isn't a problem but haven't exactly done an ideal job of explaining why. It was much the same with the run triggers, where I think the reason why they weren't exploitable was never really given in a satisfying way, which allowed tempers to fray.
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Awesome post. I agree completely. And I don't think anyone should see this as a go at WENB. It's just a rational explanation of the issue from a credible source.

I also think that _anderson, henry's hand, and a few others were treated very poorly in all of this. My concern for bug was minimal. The reaction to the people pointing this bug out was disturbing and it honestly intrigued me as well. I've been hooked to reading both forums since this firestorm began.
 
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Well considering many on here for years have discredited and took the piss out of him and wenb for years. and have pretty much insighted this recent fiasco. whatever im talking mainly to the guys who obviously were on wenb before and went too far then came here to bitch about him. soo immature really.
 
mancan said:
Well considering many on here for years have discredited and took the piss out of him and wenb for years. and have pretty much insighted this recent fiasco. whatever im talking mainly to the guys who obviously were on wenb before and went too far then came here to bitch about him. soo immature really.
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Too much drama. I say grow up (I'm not being mean, I'm being serious). Its not about you. Its about the community. Its about the people. Man up and deal with it.

It's a game fgs.
 
mancan said:
Well considering many on here for years have discredited and took the piss out of him and wenb for years. and have pretty much insighted this recent fiasco. whatever im talking mainly to the guys who obviously were on wenb before and went too far then came here to bitch about him. soo immature really.
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So let me get this right, because SOME people that were banned from WENB for "going to far" decided to join this site, it's our fault Adam has decided to quit ?.. what if they had decided to join Moddingway/GamingAccess/PesEdit forums ? would it then be their fault ?
 
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Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I am somewhat disappointed by Rom's take on matters. The fact is he has played the exact same preview code as Adam and the rest of us and so-called bug wasn't present. Why he thinks we should be more clear in our explanation of what is happening in the Gamescom footage is beyond me. He knows fine well (I believe) that Suff, Asim and Jonny Messias played Gamescom code some two weeks ago and reported no issues bar things like keepers and alike. Up until yesterday folks present at that event (and in the case of Asim, Gamescom) insist that it wasn't a problem. Jonny even went through a passage of play in which he described passing the ball backwards, across the backline and clearly seeing Samuel make a movement to drop backwards to recieve the ball as opposed to move forwards like shown in videos from the show floor.

What do you want us to say Rom? We followed up on this numerous times and were told it wasn't an issue by those who had played the Gamescom code. You have met Suff and I think you know he wouldn't look to cover something like this up. You have also met Adam and understand his passion for the game which does indeed look to pick on it's faults if they are there. What do you think WENB should be doing here? We said to those on our boards and via twitter that we were getting this feedback. Bamber followed up and said ''no issues'' with review code and in fact he said it was ''fabulous''We relayed this to folks as best possible along with Asims on the floor take and Ben from Prorevo posted on our boards as well. I ask again, what more should we have done to make you and others happy given what information that has been presented to us up until now? If one of our own staff is saying that there wasn't an issue why should we openly question them?

The video from the PES Rankings event was not used to say that people were imagining things but to clearly highlight that what we - including Rom - experienced with the preview code is pretty much how it is in that particular video. It vindicates everything we have said up to now and our current stance based on our experience of the game.

As for explanation of off-the-ball runs, again, I really don't know what you guys were wanting beyond an opinion and it became pretty bleeding obvious that an understanding of how it impacted on play wasn't really going to manifest until you play the game. It isn't straight forward to use and isn't exactly easy to describe without spamming the bloody mechanic for hours. If I remember correctly there was a post and then podcast more or less dedicated to the feature that followed pretty sharp-ish after it's announcement and yet still people wanted more. What more do you want? This all goes back to my opinion that folk have delusions of grandeur and believe if they got their hands on the game early they would be able to explain far better and have it nailed. That is of course complete nonsense; they would quite possibly arrive to the same conclusions arrived at by those who do have the access currently.

Do you know what the problem is here? Folk want to hold WENB accountable for absolutely everything; even when it is not under our control and it is born of outright bitterness. The irony in all this is that folk love taking wee digs at the site and it's staff and claim we ain't credible but when they seek some clarification they expect nay, demand that us and our questionable credentials explain it away for them. Why ask if don't believe the ''hype''?

Konami are the ones who could have addressed this better, not WENB.

This whole sorry mess regards alleged ''bug'' is not folks saying ''Konami, we think we have spotted an issue here'' it is ''WENB, we think we have spotted an issue here and you didn't tell us about it!'' It's mindless cross community fighting and one-upmanship.

Question away all you want about staff conduct but given all I have said and taking into consideration that just about all of it was made public on our boards and via twitter(bar perhaps Jonny's description, though he did post)maybe you can appreciate why we grew very,very tired of repeating ourselves as folk just weren't interested in listening to some reason. Nope, instead they pointed at the screen. Fair enough but we'd had enough and wanted to move on...

...and then we have the fact a demo is days away and that this damned build of the game will never be seen again!

Yeah, a bit peeved Rom that you feel we are in the wrong considering what you know and I know about how the game plays in the code WENB have access to currently. Maybe you should ask Suff or Asim for further clarification, though I am sure they will just offer up the same information that we chose to act upon and support.
 
Maybe tomorrow will be the retirement of adam headline news, pes was before wenb and will continue to be withot this site, so Come on people oh forget it and move on

thank you
 
Just man the f up everyone and stop blaming anyone for anything.

What's wrong is wrong and what's right is right. This is not rocket science.

Enjoy life and remember its only a game.

Bed-time! Will catch up on more of this drama tomorrow.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
I am somewhat disappointed by Rom's take on matters. The fact is he has played the exact same preview code as Adam and the rest of us and so-called bug wasn't present. Why he thinks we should be more clear in our explanation of what is happening in the Gamescom footage is beyond me. He knows fine well (I believe) that Suff, Asim and Jonny Messias played Gamescom code some two weeks ago and reported no issues bar things like keepers and alike. Up until yesterday folks present at that event (and in the case of Asim, Gamescom) insist that it wasn't a problem. Jonny even went through a passage of play in which he described passing the ball backwards, across the backline and clearly seeing Samuel make a movement to drop backwards to recieve the ball as opposed to move forwards like shown in videos from the show floor.

What do you want us to say Rom? We followed up on this numerous times and were told it wasn't an issue by those who had played the Gamescom code. You have met Suff and I think you know he wouldn't look to cover something like this up. You have also met Adam and understand his passion for the game which does indeed look to pick on it's faults if they are there. What do you think WENB should be doing here? We said to those on our boards and via twitter that we were getting this feedback. Bamber followed up and said ''no issues'' with review code and in fact he said it was ''fabulous''We relayed this to folks as best possible along with Asims on the floor take and Ben from Prorevo posted on our boards as well. I ask again, what more should we have done to make you and others happy given what information that has been presented to us up until now? If one of our own staff is saying that there wasn't an issue why should we openly question them?

The video from the PES Rankings event was not used to say that people were imagining things but to clearly highlight that what we - including Rom - experienced with the preview code is pretty much how it is in that particular video. It vindicates everything we have said up to now and our current stance based on our experience of the game.

As for explanation of off-the-ball runs, again, I really don't know what you guys were wanting beyond an opinion and it became pretty bleeding obvious that an understanding of how it impacted on play wasn't really going to manifest until you play the game. It isn't straight forward to use and isn't exactly easy to describe without spamming the bloody mechanic for hours. If I remember correctly there was a post and then podcast more or less dedicated to the feature that followed pretty sharp-ish after it's announcement and yet still people wanted more. What more do you want? This all goes back to my opinion that folk have delusions of grandeur and believe if they got their hands on the game early they would be able to explain far better and have it nailed. That is of course complete nonsense; they would quite possibly arrive to the same conclusions arrived at by those who do have the access currently.

Do you know what the problem is here? Folk want to hold WENB accountable for absolutely everything; even when it is not under our control and it is born of outright bitterness. The irony in all this is that folk love taking wee digs at the site and it's staff and claim we ain't credible but when they seek some clarification they expect nay, demand that us and our questionable credentials explain it away for them. Why ask if don't believe the ''hype''?

Konami are the ones who could have addressed this better, not WENB.

This whole sorry mess regards alleged ''bug'' is not folks saying ''Konami, we think we have spotted an issue here'' it is ''WENB, we think we have spotted an issue here and you didn't tell us about it!'' It's mindless cross community fighting and one-upmanship.

Question away all you want about staff conduct but given all I have said and taking into consideration that just about all of it was made public on our boards and via twitter(bar perhaps Jonny's description, though he did post)maybe you can appreciate why we grew very,very tired of repeating ourselves as folk just weren't interested in listening to some reason. Nope, instead they pointed at the screen. Fair enough but we'd had enough and wanted to move on...

...and then we have the fact a demo is days away and that this damned build of the game will never be seen again!

Yeah, a bit peeved Rom that you feel we are in the wrong considering what you know and I know about how the game plays in the code WENB have access to currently. Maybe you should ask Suff or Asim for further clarification, though I am sure they will just offer up the same information that we chose to act upon and support.
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I don't think Rom was attacking anybody at all. He basically reiterated that the code before Gamescom was different and the runs being made everytime the ball was passed in gamescon were not on the previous code (The main problem is it happens with the computer team, just the computer team, not a team controlled by the human at all) this is a point I don't think the people at Wenb got at all and by your post I'm still not sure you get that point?

The previous code the Active AI was described as brilliant etc, then the Gamescon code comes about and it is changed and the run bug runs do not look like the active AI at all? (which is what people were suggesting it is?) as it doesn't look at all intelligent, it just looks plain wrong. It doesn't matter if it doesn't effect the game at all, this concern should not just be dismissed, like it seems like it was.

there has been a miscommunication and alot of people still seem to not know what people are moaning about and questioning Adam et al about? the major problem is that it is the computer playing as the whole team (no human player playing as that team), still doing these runs no matter what, that wasn't in the previous code? so of course people are going to question it.

Its all got out of hand basically through miscommunication and people refusing to listen to the complaint and bug properly.

That is my opinion anyway.
 
No matter what, WENB is still on full denial-mode regarding this "bug" or "bad gamedesign-decision" or "wrong tactic-setting".

I can't fathom why grown people would do that.

Adam is supposed to get behind the scenes... I remember a few months back he planned to leave WENB and let someone else be the new "Adam" because his work with Ubisoft wouldn't allow him the time to do what he did up to now... He even said when he would leave, namely after PES 2012 got released...

So what exactly is new now? Now he blames his leaving on us "moaners", eventhough he planned it months ago and told us about it.. It can't get any more strange.
 
Lol, oh lord, this chap is the biggest attention seeker imaginable, £10 says he's back within a week so his community can have a thread full of 'THE KING IS BACK!!!!!' :II :SS


Suppose this means there's a gap in the market for PENB then, my first appointment is Jimmy as Konami Spin Doctor.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
I am somewhat disappointed by Rom's take on matters. The fact is he has played the exact same preview code as Adam and the rest of us and so-called bug wasn't present. Why he thinks we should be more clear in our explanation of what is happening in the Gamescom footage is beyond me. He knows fine well (I believe) that Suff, Asim and Jonny Messias played Gamescom code some two weeks ago and reported no issues bar things like keepers and alike. Up until yesterday folks present at that event (and in the case of Asim, Gamescom) insist that it wasn't a problem. Jonny even went through a passage of play in which he described passing the ball backwards, across the backline and clearly seeing Samuel make a movement to drop backwards to recieve the ball as opposed to move forwards like shown in videos from the show floor.

What do you want us to say Rom? We followed up on this numerous times and were told it wasn't an issue by those who had played the Gamescom code. You have met Suff and I think you know he wouldn't look to cover something like this up. You have also met Adam and understand his passion for the game which does indeed look to pick on it's faults if they are there. What do you think WENB should be doing here? We said to those on our boards and via twitter that we were getting this feedback. Bamber followed up and said ''no issues'' with review code and in fact he said it was ''fabulous''We relayed this to folks as best possible along with Asims on the floor take and Ben from Prorevo posted on our boards as well. I ask again, what more should we have done to make you and others happy given what information that has been presented to us up until now? If one of our own staff is saying that there wasn't an issue why should we openly question them?

The video from the PES Rankings event was not used to say that people were imagining things but to clearly highlight that what we - including Rom - experienced with the preview code is pretty much how it is in that particular video. It vindicates everything we have said up to now and our current stance based on our experience of the game.

As for explanation of off-the-ball runs, again, I really don't know what you guys were wanting beyond an opinion and it became pretty bleeding obvious that an understanding of how it impacted on play wasn't really going to manifest until you play the game. It isn't straight forward to use and isn't exactly easy to describe without spamming the bloody mechanic for hours. If I remember correctly there was a post and then podcast more or less dedicated to the feature that followed pretty sharp-ish after it's announcement and yet still people wanted more. What more do you want? This all goes back to my opinion that folk have delusions of grandeur and believe if they got their hands on the game early they would be able to explain far better and have it nailed. That is of course complete nonsense; they would quite possibly arrive to the same conclusions arrived at by those who do have the access currently.

Do you know what the problem is here? Folk want to hold WENB accountable for absolutely everything; even when it is not under our control and it is born of outright bitterness. The irony in all this is that folk love taking wee digs at the site and it's staff and claim we ain't credible but when they seek some clarification they expect nay, demand that us and our questionable credentials explain it away for them. Why ask if don't believe the ''hype''?

Konami are the ones who could have addressed this better, not WENB.

This whole sorry mess regards alleged ''bug'' is not folks saying ''Konami, we think we have spotted an issue here'' it is ''WENB, we think we have spotted an issue here and you didn't tell us about it!'' It's mindless cross community fighting and one-upmanship.

Question away all you want about staff conduct but given all I have said and taking into consideration that just about all of it was made public on our boards and via twitter(bar perhaps Jonny's description, though he did post)maybe you can appreciate why we grew very,very tired of repeating ourselves as folk just weren't interested in listening to some reason. Nope, instead they pointed at the screen. Fair enough but we'd had enough and wanted to move on...

...and then we have the fact a demo is days away and that this damned build of the game will never be seen again!

Yeah, a bit peeved Rom that you feel we are in the wrong considering what you know and I know about how the game plays in the code WENB have access to currently. Maybe you should ask Suff or Asim for further clarification, though I am sure they will just offer up the same information that we chose to act upon and support.
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Alan I have a great deal of respect for your opinions.

No one is blaming WENB or Adam for this run forward bug, I think that some people have a issue with Adam as he failed to acknowledge that this bug existed in the Gamescom videos, that is where this has snowballed from in terms of digs at WENB.

Whereas Bamber (PESFAN) acknowledged this as a potential issue when it was pointed out to him. So when he said that he couldn't recreate this in the review code people accepted that.

Anyhow in just over a month the game will come out and everyone will be able to judge for themselves, until why don't we all just chillout.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
This whole sorry mess regards alleged ''bug'' is not folks saying ''Konami, we think we have spotted an issue here'' it is ''WENB, we think we have spotted an issue here and you didn't tell us about it!'' It's mindless cross community fighting and one-upmanship.
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No it fucking well isn't. It's this sheer delusional arrogance that's what has got people riled.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WENB. All your post does is confirm how petty and self-absorbed that site is.

Pointing out the flaw was never an attack on Adam, it's got absolutely fuck all to do with him, he only attracted criticism when he refused to acknowledge and actively discouraged discussion of it.

The community saw a problem in the builds we were watching. Play-testers, such as Rod and Rom, also saw the problem and confirmed it was not in the code that they played. The community do not want the AI how is shown in the Gamescom videos, it does not matter if the people there noticed it or not, the fact is super-aggressive CBs isn't a design feature people are happy with.

All members ever wanted is Konami to be aware of this. Instead, we get people like yourself and Adam thrusting themselves in front of attention, crying that people are undervaluing their opinion and not being 100% trusting their word. It's not about you or him, it never has been. Get over yourself and realise WENB isn't bigger than PES.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

dannyfc2 said:
No it fucking well isn't. It's this sheer delusional arrogance that's what has got people riled.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WENB. All your post does is confirm how petty and self-absorbed that site is.

Pointing out the flaw was never an attack on Adam, it's got absolutely fuck all to do with him, he only attracted criticism when he refused to acknowledge and actively discouraged discussion of it.

The community saw a problem in the builds we were watching. Play-testers, such as Rod and Rom, also saw the problem and confirmed it was not in the code that they played. The community do not want the AI how is shown in the Gamescom videos, it does not matter if the people there noticed it or not, the fact is super-aggressive CBs isn't a design feature people are happy with.

All members ever wanted is Konami to be aware of this. Instead, we get people like yourself and Adam thrusting themselves in front of attention, crying that people are undervaluing their opinion and not being 100% trusting their word. It's not about you or him, it never has been. Get over yourself and realise WENB isn't bigger than PES.
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Now calm down, it is only a keyboard..
 
henrys hand said:
No matter what, WENB is still on full denial-mode regarding this "bug" or "bad gamedesign-decision" or "wrong tactic-setting".

I can't fathom why grown people would do that.
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Erm...Adam has always acknowledged what was happening and chose only to not call it a ''bug'' Why is that? Because he had spoke to people who had played it and they said all was fine.

Why report a ''bug'' when he had been advised there was no ''bug''?

Who's opinion is more valid? The player or the viewer from afar? Why should he just conform with everybody else in how they chose to name it if he had been told otherwise?

What does it matter anyway? You ain't ever going to be playing that particular code so now you are just looking to score points in another discussion forum for the hell of it.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
Now calm down, it is only a keyboard..
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Look curd,

It's as simple as this:

We, the PES fans, saw the videos. We saw the problem. Every player passes the ball bombs forward no matter his position. We saw it in every gamescom video. It is obvious. I've played the game myself and the code I had DID NOT have this issue. So I know what I'm talking about. I acknowledged this issue like the rest. We complained. We want our complaints to reach Konami. You claim you are for the community. You should then fulfill that claim and carry our complaint to Konami. But instead, you do not acknowledge of the problem. You start telling people they're wrong, they're blind, they don't know and only you know, don't believe the videos and believe you. You refuse to admit something is wrong. You stand in our way. You completely refuse to acknowledge. You take it as a personal attack. You forget who you are and who you represent. You forget its not about you and its about helping better the game. Instead of informing Konami of what is obviously wrong so maybe they can do something about, you do not carry our complaint to Konami. You block our way. Our messages do not reach them. You block any signs of progress.

What do you expect?

You say you represent the fans. Then forget who you are, and let the fans talk. Its not about you, him, and me. It's not about just one fan. Its about the fans. The fans you claim to represent and should always hear out. Not stomp and create blind followers who add nothing to PES' progress.

If you really claim who you are, see what we see, and stop treating your fans like children.

I'm out.
 
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It's best to just forget about WENB's attitude and move on. The demo is soon here and we can all discuss the game instead of some selfabsorbed admins of other sites.
 
dannyfc2 said:
Lol, oh lord, this chap is the biggest attention seeker imaginable, £10 says he's back within a week so his community can have a thread full of 'THE KING IS BACK!!!!!' :II :SS


Suppose this means there's a gap in the market for PENB then, my first appointment is Jimmy as Konami Spin Doctor.
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Give me access to early preview code Daniel and will shamelessly sell my morals and principles down the river and lie through my back teeth, at the drop of a hat. I say at the drop of a hat.

Where do I sign up ? :CONFUSE:
 
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