The Drama Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
japan74 said:
Alan why so defensive if you're all 100% open and honest at your site? Makes me wonder...
Click to expand...

Oi!

To everyone in here,

This is not the "WENB Hate Thread".

If you've only come here to moan about WENB forever then you're in the wrong forum. Whinge and moan (it's called the drama thread for a reason) about what's wrong with PES all you want with reason, with the occasional moans about other things. But if you're thinking this place is your safe haven for your main mission to totally discredit and disrespect WENB, then leave soon while you're at it.

Don't be surprised if you see the banhammer coming, eh!
 
Last edited:
The main problem for me with all of this is that, as each new piece of evidence comes out, various people's stances or interpretations of the evidence seem to distort in order to best fit their argument. I do like the WENB guys from my interactions with them, but for the life of me can't find any consistency in the arguments that have been made - and I am trying.

People are being verbally attacked for calling it a bug, yet are slapped in the face with pre-GC videos showing it wasn't happening back then (which would suggest it's a bug).

People are told to trust people they don't know rather than their own eyes and several full match videos against computer or human - which IMO is beyond the pale. It seems mental to me to demand that people believe strangers above video evidence, unless the video is clearly very selective, and the evidence we have now spans so many different GC videos. I think retronym tried to turn that argument around on me at some point and say, 'well why do you think we should believe you then? Don't you see what you're doing' etc etc (he was too busy being a bellend to think rationally). The point is that I do want people to judge for themselves, which is why I caveat so much of my impressions and account for taste, and similarly trust my (not his) community to use their knowledge of me to put things in context. I'm also someone who very much believes in empirical evidence, and over an hour's worth of footage of players sprinting forward after passing absolutely shits on any number of people saying 'it's not there' or 'you don't notice it when playing'. For pre-GC videos to then be used in favour of the people saying 'don't believe the videos over me', adds to the sense of inconsistency.


People have been told it's definitely just people spamming L1 or R2, which to be fair is what it looks like at first glance and I thought the same - but we can see the CPU doing the same.

Arguments have been made that it isn't a problem when you play with it, but a lot of the same people said it wasn't even there in the videos to begin with - which it clearly is, and not because of mitigating circumstances like silly tactical setups or maxed out attacking mentality.

I guess my point is that I still don't know what WENB's stance is on the evidence itself, only that however they interpret the evidence it will be to back the notion that it isn't a problem. As someone with a science degree, I just can't agree that that's the way to go about things - the evidence should shape the conclusion, never the other way around - and the sheer confusion and incredulity of various boards, which I feel the above flip flopping of arguments has multiplied, would back that stance.

I'm not saying I think WENB are being deceitful at all - just that they seem sure that it isn't a problem but haven't exactly done an ideal job of explaining why. It was much the same with the run triggers, where I think the reason why they weren't exploitable was never really given in a satisfying way, which allowed tempers to fray.
 
romagnoli said:
The main problem for me with all of this is that, as each new piece of evidence comes out, various people's stances or interpretations of the evidence seem to distort in order to best fit their argument. I do like the WENB guys from my interactions with them, but for the life of me can't find any consistency in the arguments that have been made - and I am trying.

People are being verbally attacked for calling it a bug, yet are slapped in the face with pre-GC videos showing it wasn't happening back then (which would suggest it's a bug).

People are told to trust people they don't know rather than their own eyes and several full match videos against computer or human - which IMO is beyond the pale. It seems mental to me to demand that people believe strangers above video evidence, unless the video is clearly very selective, and the evidence we have now spans so many different GC videos. I think retronym tried to turn that argument around on me at some point and say, 'well why do you think we should believe you then? Don't you see what you're doing' etc etc (he was too busy being a bellend to think rationally). The point is that I do want people to judge for themselves, which is why I caveat so much of my impressions and account for taste, and similarly trust my (not his) community to use their knowledge of me to put things in context. I'm also someone who very much believes in empirical evidence, and over an hour's worth of footage of players sprinting forward after passing absolutely shits on any number of people saying 'it's not there' or 'you don't notice it when playing'. For pre-GC videos to then be used in favour of the people saying 'don't believe the videos over me', adds to the sense of inconsistency.


People have been told it's definitely just people spamming L1 or R2, which to be fair is what it looks like at first glance and I thought the same - but we can see the CPU doing the same.

Arguments have been made that it isn't a problem when you play with it, but a lot of the same people said it wasn't even there in the videos to begin with - which it clearly is, and not because of mitigating circumstances like silly tactical setups or maxed out attacking mentality.

I guess my point is that I still don't know what WENB's stance is on the evidence itself, only that however they interpret the evidence it will be to back the notion that it isn't a problem. As someone with a science degree, I just can't agree that that's the way to go about things - the evidence should shape the conclusion, never the other way around - and the sheer confusion and incredulity of various boards, which I feel the above flip flopping of arguments has multiplied, would back that stance.

I'm not saying I think WENB are being deceitful at all - just that they seem sure that it isn't a problem but haven't exactly done an ideal job of explaining why. It was much the same with the run triggers, where I think the reason why they weren't exploitable was never really given in a satisfying way, which allowed tempers to fray.
Click to expand...

100%, my thoughts exactly.
 
Well said Rom, and your last paragraph sums up my stance on this whole sorry issue.

When clear video evidence appears to contradict play test impressions and older gameplay clips, then it's only natural that people want answers. Not everyone is content with reassuring words when video evidence is so inconclusive.

The bottom line is WENB should have used their relationship with Konami to attempt to obtain some kind of official explanation for what we are seeing. A few words from Jon Murphy or Steve Merrett could have nipped this confusion in the bud.
 
I feel we are at least moving a bit forward with all this drama. Because at the moment, I feel that most people agree that there seems to be a difference between early code and GC code. That's a good start. I also think everyone understands now that there has never been any finger pointing to WENB or other early game tester about this issue (maybe this new guy, but he wasn't really well informed from the beginning).

If I had been at GC I bet I wouldn't have noticed it either. Just like Fremm I would have played it a couple of times, loved it and come back seeing all this crap about forward runs and saying "really? never noticed anything about this, seemed fine to me".

It's kind of like the Green Zone bug last year. It didn't take long to find it, but it's something you only find out after playing several games. You have to see the pattern before you notice something is wrong. That is what's good with these videos. We have at least one hour of gameplay to look at, and only then can we see this pattern of always running after a pass.
 
romagnoli said:
The main problem for me with all of this is that, as each new piece of evidence comes out, various people's stances or interpretations of the evidence seem to distort in order to best fit their argument. I do like the WENB guys from my interactions with them, but for the life of me can't find any consistency in the arguments that have been made - and I am trying.

People are being verbally attacked for calling it a bug, yet are slapped in the face with pre-GC videos showing it wasn't happening back then (which would suggest it's a bug).

People are told to trust people they don't know rather than their own eyes and several full match videos against computer or human - which IMO is beyond the pale. It seems mental to me to demand that people believe strangers above video evidence, unless the video is clearly very selective, and the evidence we have now spans so many different GC videos. I think retronym tried to turn that argument around on me at some point and say, 'well why do you think we should believe you then? Don't you see what you're doing' etc etc (he was too busy being a bellend to think rationally). The point is that I do want people to judge for themselves, which is why I caveat so much of my impressions and account for taste, and similarly trust my (not his) community to use their knowledge of me to put things in context. I'm also someone who very much believes in empirical evidence, and over an hour's worth of footage of players sprinting forward after passing absolutely shits on any number of people saying 'it's not there' or 'you don't notice it when playing'. For pre-GC videos to then be used in favour of the people saying 'don't believe the videos over me', adds to the sense of inconsistency.


People have been told it's definitely just people spamming L1 or R2, which to be fair is what it looks like at first glance and I thought the same - but we can see the CPU doing the same.

Arguments have been made that it isn't a problem when you play with it, but a lot of the same people said it wasn't even there in the videos to begin with - which it clearly is, and not because of mitigating circumstances like silly tactical setups or maxed out attacking mentality.

I guess my point is that I still don't know what WENB's stance is on the evidence itself, only that however they interpret the evidence it will be to back the notion that it isn't a problem. As someone with a science degree, I just can't agree that that's the way to go about things - the evidence should shape the conclusion, never the other way around - and the sheer confusion and incredulity of various boards, which I feel the above flip flopping of arguments has multiplied, would back that stance.

I'm not saying I think WENB are being deceitful at all - just that they seem sure that it isn't a problem but haven't exactly done an ideal job of explaining why. It was much the same with the run triggers, where I think the reason why they weren't exploitable was never really given in a satisfying way, which allowed tempers to fray.
Click to expand...

100% spot on.
 
Jamezinho said:
The bottom line is WENB should have used their relationship with Konami to attempt to obtain some kind of official explanation for what we are seeing. A few words from Jon Murphy or Steve Merrett could have nipped this confusion in the bud.
Click to expand...
and when there 's no official explanation for this ? then what is the chance could it be a code bug ?
that's what we were saying , konami's silence deepens the thoughts that this bug has actually passed to the already made final code and konami can't assure at the current moment if it could be fixed by a post-release patch
i think they would have fears for breaking other gameplay elements after fixing this issue "domino effect" but i'm sure they will consider fixing it for 2013 lol

konami always overdone things

pes 2010 NO through balls at all
pes 2011 is nothing but a through ball game

pes 2010 is "running game" a game that depends only on running with the ball
pes 2011 is only a passing game "u can't run with the ball even wth messi because of the catch up bug

pes 2010 , pes 2011 brainless stupid AI
pes 2012 , supernaturally smart intelligent active AI which do every thing in the game while u r just "watching"

the keyword here is "OVERDONE"
i'm afraid pes will the of absolute controversies
 
Last edited:
Konami's official explanation could be "we have a demo out this week, play it and you'll see there's no run bug". Simple as that. Perhaps that's exactly their approach. Let the game do the talking in a few days time. But I still think Jon could have tweeted a few words on the issue either way. The community sites should have pestered him for a response.

I'm confident this will all be forgotten in a week's time and we will wonder what the fuss was about. I don't think Konami are stupid enough to invest so much effort in creating highly advanced AI and then Bork it at the last minute.
 
afacc4150f6802d98a7cec1a885930125a51fdc20f4c0bd03993760ddb9aefdf6g.jpg
 
romagnoli said:
The main problem for me with all of this is that, as each new piece of evidence comes out, various people's stances or interpretations of the evidence seem to distort in order to best fit their argument. I do like the WENB guys from my interactions with them, but for the life of me can't find any consistency in the arguments that have been made - and I am trying.

People are being verbally attacked for calling it a bug, yet are slapped in the face with pre-GC videos showing it wasn't happening back then (which would suggest it's a bug).

People are told to trust people they don't know rather than their own eyes and several full match videos against computer or human - which IMO is beyond the pale. It seems mental to me to demand that people believe strangers above video evidence, unless the video is clearly very selective, and the evidence we have now spans so many different GC videos. I think retronym tried to turn that argument around on me at some point and say, 'well why do you think we should believe you then? Don't you see what you're doing' etc etc (he was too busy being a bellend to think rationally). The point is that I do want people to judge for themselves, which is why I caveat so much of my impressions and account for taste, and similarly trust my (not his) community to use their knowledge of me to put things in context. I'm also someone who very much believes in empirical evidence, and over an hour's worth of footage of players sprinting forward after passing absolutely shits on any number of people saying 'it's not there' or 'you don't notice it when playing'. For pre-GC videos to then be used in favour of the people saying 'don't believe the videos over me', adds to the sense of inconsistency.


People have been told it's definitely just people spamming L1 or R2, which to be fair is what it looks like at first glance and I thought the same - but we can see the CPU doing the same.

Arguments have been made that it isn't a problem when you play with it, but a lot of the same people said it wasn't even there in the videos to begin with - which it clearly is, and not because of mitigating circumstances like silly tactical setups or maxed out attacking mentality.

I guess my point is that I still don't know what WENB's stance is on the evidence itself, only that however they interpret the evidence it will be to back the notion that it isn't a problem. As someone with a science degree, I just can't agree that that's the way to go about things - the evidence should shape the conclusion, never the other way around - and the sheer confusion and incredulity of various boards, which I feel the above flip flopping of arguments has multiplied, would back that stance.

I'm not saying I think WENB are being deceitful at all - just that they seem sure that it isn't a problem but haven't exactly done an ideal job of explaining why. It was much the same with the run triggers, where I think the reason why they weren't exploitable was never really given in a satisfying way, which allowed tempers to fray.
Click to expand...

Very well said.

I also think the reactions from those guys have made the general backlash a lot worse, people are ganging up like nasty schoolchildren against people with alternative views, it's all become very petty
 
these two demos thing will make the situation about "forward runs" even more complicated, right? Demo one, say no forward run bug, but we will never be sure ıf it will be or not in demo 2. Demo two, say no forward run bug, now how the hell will we be sure wheter it will be in the final product or not?

Depressing days are waiting for us :(
 
bobfifalas said:
these two demos thing will make the situation about "forward runs" even more complicated, right? Demo one, say no forward run bug, but we will never be sure ıf it will be or not in demo 2. Demo two, say no forward run bug, now how the hell will we be sure wheter it will be in the final product or not?

Depressing days are waiting for us :(
Click to expand...

Not really, if it isn't in demo 1, then we know for sure it's a bug in the gamescom-build that is newer than demo 1-build.

If the bug isn't in demo 2 as well, which is based on review/finalcode, ie. newer than gamescom-build, all is good as that means the bug was taken out again.

But it's already stated by some that it's neither in preview- nor in review-code... so we can relax a bit.
 
Butterfly said:
and when there 's no official explanation for this ? then what is the chance could it be a code bug ?
that's what we were saying , konami's silence deepens the thoughts that this bug has actually passed to the already made final code and konami can't assure at the current moment if it could be fixed by a post-release patch
i think they would have fears for breaking other gameplay elements after fixing this issue "domino effect" but i'm sure they will consider fixing it for 2013 lol

konami always overdone things

pes 2010 NO through balls at all
pes 2011 is nothing but a through ball game

pes 2010 is "running game" a game that depends only on running with the ball
pes 2011 is only a passing game "u can't run with the ball even wth messi because of the catch up bug

pes 2010 , pes 2011 brainless stupid AI
pes 2012 , supernaturally smart intelligent active AI which do every thing in the game while u r just "watching"

the keyword here is "OVERDONE"
i'm afraid pes will the of absolute controversies
Click to expand...

did you play the game? to me Ai is nothing supernatural, it's just human like.
 
Just to clarify, I'm not having a massive go at WENB. I just think that the way things have been going with this running issue and the way things went with the run triggers, the biggest problem was with confusion or uncertainty, and that will only perpetuate if WENB come across as confused and uncertain in their arguments, or use the 'trust me it's fine' approach rather than giving people exhaustive and logically sound reasoning.

If they then start getting aggressive (the treatment of _anderson has been scandalous) then that only makes people wonder why aggression rather than a proper explanation is the route being taken.
 
Ameppe said:
did you play the game? to me Ai is nothing supernatural, it's just human like.
Click to expand...

it's a sarcastic description referring to the so called "active" AI which do every thing in the game moving ur teammates even responsible for moving ur player after passing the ball instead of u deciding to press or not L1 "u must be the one who decides to hold or to move r player after the pass not the brainless AI"

for may it's way from human , doing a repetitive predictable forward moves all the time is far from being human like
sorry for disappointing u
 
Last edited:
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
Cool story, bro!
Click to expand...

Hold on a minute curdstar,while the first part of his post might be a little far fetched,there is some truth in this.Especially in relation to how WENB hype pes every year and then do a u-turn when fans start pointing out bugs and flaws in the game,resulting most of the time in adam not playing pes weeks after release.

Roms post also raises a very valid point,which is,why not try to explain what could possibly be happening in the videos and the reason i.e some preset in the game,l1 and r2 spamming or possibly tactical set-ups and team sliders.

Imo people blaming the fans for the reason the final version of pes2011 was so different to the demo is poppy cock.By the time we were all playing the demo last year pes was already finished,much as it will be this year at this stage.So however much different the demo is or the gc build,or the second demo pes2012 has gone gold.

I agree with jimmy,there no way konami would fuck up what they put in place with pes2011,anyone who really understands football can see where that games going.
 
Last edited:
Good for you. Make sure you read my warning post above or it will be your final chance in here.
 
All these new faces that have shown up just to talk about the run bug or because they've been banned from WENB. It's absolutely fine if they're here to be constructive and to talk rationally and calmly about PES - it's just those who are here to pick fights with people or dilute the forum with spam about what's happening on the WENB forums that I worry about.
 
Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Well adam has now confirmed he is quitting. thanks a lot you pricks. if you find that konami dont listen anymore then you'll know why.
 
Sorry to disappoint you, but PES is not about him. If he wants to leave, so be it.

And who exactly are you calling pricks?
 
WTF has Adam threatening to quit WENB got to do with Evo-Web ? aside from the fact we've suddenly had an influx of banned WENB members joining here.I don't see how anything that happens here affects WENB or Adam.
 
All im saying is that he is the most influential community member on any site. and has done things via hints and pictures that no one on the net would risk. the guy puts hours and hours of his time into the pes community yet he is fully employed with a family to look after. i mean he even has a podcast series thats how much effort he has put in. who that flip else on these community sites has the balls or the time to start one. go on evo web i dare you to try and put the effort that him and the rest of the wenb staff put in.
 
Where in that statement do you explain what this has to do with Evo-Web ?
 
mancan said:
All im saying is that he is the most influential community member on any site. and has done things via hints and pictures that no one on the net would risk. the guy puts hours and hours of his time into the pes community yet he is fully employed with a family to look after. i mean he even has a podcast series thats how much effort he has put in. who that flip else on these community sites has the balls or the time to start one. go on evo web i dare you to try and put the effort that him and the rest of the wenb staff put in.
Click to expand...

how is it anybody elses fault? his ego is making him quit. (that is if he even does)

What ever you say the reason this run bug got out of hand is that he didn't deal with the situation properly.

look at Evo Web, they dealt with it perfectly and we are all now discussing it properly.

Alot of the people that are playing PES are older gamers, because we played from day one. He tried to treat these gamers as children and he got burned because of it.

Adam belongs in this drama thread more than anybody else.
 
romagnoli said:
All these new faces that have shown up just to talk about the run bug or because they've been banned from WENB. It's absolutely fine if they're here to be constructive and to talk rationally and calmly about PES - it's just those who are here to pick fights with people or dilute the forum with spam about what's happening on the WENB forums that I worry about.
Click to expand...

in all fairness I don't think there are too many people who are trying to pick fights or trolling or whatever. for example myself, I'm not banned from wenb I've just chosen not to post there after what I've seen. I'm here to discuss and read about pes without being tsrgetted for abuse
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom