Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

wow De Laurentis is really pissed with Lavezzi threatening to put him on the sidelines for 2 years!

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

i know i might sound biased, but what does balzaretti has to do to get some consideration from lippi??

Could be because Balzaretti doesn't offer much going forward. Even still, the likes of Pasqual and Balzaretti deserve a call up over Dossena. I don't think Dossena's involution should be much of a surprise. Before he transferred he was a very attacking WB. With Liverpool he was reqired to do much mor defending which clearly isn't one of his strengths, mix that in with having to adjust to a new country/culture/weather/language, and after a string of poor performances in one of his least favorite postions, his confidence has dwindled.

and what about modesto, pasqual, molinaro..

Modesto

One other question Lo Zio (are you Bergomi fan?), what do you think about Montolivo moving onto a bigger side (no offence Viola fans). Do you think he could be a success? He doesn't seem to be progressing under Prandelli with all those defensive responsibilities. Inter (and perhaps Italy, depending on how effective you consider the 4-3-3 formation) is screaming for a trequartista and I think Montolovio, although seemingly timid and mild-mannered, has the necessary qualitites. Thoughts?

 

[Aboutreika18]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Hearing Dossena to Juventus rumors? What's the news there?

He's going to Juve in a £6.5m deal.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I don't think Dossena's involution should be much of a surprise. Before he transferred he was a very attacking WB. With Liverpool he was reqired to do much mor defending which clearly isn't one of his strengths, mix that in with having to adjust to a new country/culture/weather/language, and after a string of poor performances in one of his least favorite postions, his confidence has dwindled.

true. indeed theese are the points i made months ago, when i was asked about dossena from some liverpool fans. but the thing is we're not talking about an involution anymore. cassano had an involution during his late roma years and his madrid experience.... vargas had an involution in the first half of the season.... barzagli had an involution, wich began at then end of last season.
i mean barzagli is not as good as he was 2 years ago. he failed to step up... but still, watching him playing u can see he's a very good cb... he won't ever be world class, maybe he won't even ever be as good as he used to be till 2 years ago.... but u can still appreciate his features.

dossena is a different case. not only he didn't improve his weaknesses (despite playing for almost 1 entire season as a fullback, his sense of position is still as poor as it was last season).... he completely lost his own features: his aggressiveness, his dribbling, his crosses.... he's just a different player.
he doesn't push. he keeps going till the 3\4 pitch and then he crosses the ball. he doesn't have the guts to go for 1 on 1 situations anymore.
yeah, sure his confidence had a huge shock, but, for God's sake, we were playing against new zealand!! it should have been a training session.... and indeed it was a training session, for all the other guys. santon, on the other side, was dribbling for fun. go past the marker, then stop, have a chat with pepe about the wheather, let the marker reach u again and then dribble him again. and that was his first game ever with the azzurri, so he should have been much more worried and nervous than dossena.
dossena never tried a 1 on 1 situation... always crossing from the 3\4.

balzaretti is not a wing back. he's not supposed to venture foward as much (and as good) as dossena SHOULD do (and used to do).... but yet he does. he had another great season this year (actually this one was even better than the previous).
despite being an offensive fullback (and not a proper wing back), he pushes as much as a wing back does (and defends much better than a wing-back). all along the season i've never seen balzaretti doing a cross as poor as the ones dossena did sathurday.

however balzaretti is just the first on the list... i wouldn't mind if pasqual or molinaro would take dossena's spot.

One other question Lo Zio (are you Bergomi fan?), what do you think about Montolivo moving onto a bigger side (no offence Viola fans). Do you think he could be a success? He doesn't seem to be progressing under Prandelli with all those defensive responsibilities

well that's just my personal opinion, and i might well be completely wrong, but i don't think that would be a good move for monto. a top club would't show the same patience firenze is showing... and montolivo deserves that patience.

prandelli went through a hard time this season, trying to give to give a new shape to his midfield and both kuzmanovic and montolivo were the victims and, at the same time, the cause of this situation.

they were victims, coz it's extermely hard for a mezz'ala to direct a midfield department (i'm sorry for using the italian word "mezz'ala" but there's really no english word to describe montolivo's role).

but they were also the cause of prandelli's headaches, coz, when u have the quality, the technique and the potential montolivo has, sooner or later, u're gonna have to step up, or the pressure will destroy u.
and this is (i believe) montolivo's weakness; his mental attitude.

i mean take a look at giovinco. he too had some hard time this season. and yet, even if he didn't perform as good as last season (due to the lack of playtime), almost every time he got the chance, he made a difference (and u can realise it as soon as u take a look at those stats dominic posted a few weeks ago).

that's cause of his mental attitude, his charachter. sebastian (aswell as montolivo) is aware of his enourmous potential, of his qualities..... but unlike montolivo, he's not afraid of it. he never lets the pressure bring him down.
and the same can be said about balotelli, santon, hamsik, chiellini, santacroce, cigarini.... they're not afraid of their skills, they're not worried by the pressure and the expectations.

sometimes i get the feeling montolivo is afraid he won't ever become that world class player everyone expect him to become. and this obviously has a very bad impact on his performances. i'm afraid if he won't get rid of this "fear" he'll never step up.

now, if u consider this, moving to a top club would even increase the pressure on him, so i don't think that, in this moment of his carreer, he should consider such a move.

as for my nickname, there's not a specific reason why i chose it, as it's not related to bergomi. however i am a bergomi fan, of course. besides it's impossible not to admire bergomi, as it's impossible not to admire the likes of baresi, maldini, beckembauer, crujff, best, maradona, baggio.
u either know em or not. but if u know them, it's impossible not to be a fan of em

 

[PLF]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

You took the words right out of my mouth about Ricardom lozio! I feel the exact same way. That's why if anything I prefer he stays in Florence rather than move to even bigger club.

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

now, if u consider this, moving to a top club would even increase the pressure on him, so i don't think that, in this moment of his carreer, he should consider such a move.

Screw it, I still think its worth the investment for Moratti, Inter has ruined so many promising careers over the years (Ze mAria, Cesar, Jiminez, Recoba, Ferrari, Quaresma, Mancini, Georgatos, Binotto, Adriano, Pasquale -- I could go on for days) why stop now .

And what do you make of this apparent exodus of world class players from serie A? First Kaka, and possibly Ibra, now I'm hearing Pato and Pirlo are bing courted by Chelsea, Maicon by Real Madrid, Lavezzi is growing increasinlg unhappy at Napoli. In addition, Serie A seems unable to attract the top players (Inesta, Ribery, Benzema, Messi, C. Ronaldo) as everyone has their sights set on either La Liga or Premiership. At this rate, there won't be any Ballon D'Or contenders plying their trade in Italy. I suppose I'm not all that bothered so long as serie maintains its competitiveness, and it would present young Italians with more first team opportunties. Still I find it worrying, and I expect we will see more older players drafted in or staying on longer (Figo, Nedved, Del Piero, Maldini, Favalli, Zanetti)

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I don't think thats completely true. Iniesta and Messi wouldn't move from Barca... and theyre homegrown. C. Ronaldo was only really signed mainly due to financial muscle, same for Kaka. I think Maicon and Ibra will stay.

This summer we have seen the arrival of Diego, and soon I think Milan will sign some European talent. There's plenty of talent around in Italy, hence the strong interest year after year from abroad.

I also think that apart from the top teams, young players are actually being used a lot more than before. Look at players like Marilungo and Motta.... doing pretty well. The older players you mention seem to keep playing because they are still capable to. Players these days have better diets and are able to last longer. Zanetti still runs as fast as most top players and is still top class. Del Piero doesn't need pace for his magical feet - Zola was top class until he was like 33 at Chelsea.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

You took the words right out of my mouth about Ricardom lozio!

when your friends start calling u by your nickname.. that's when u realise u should start log on messenger more often

Screw it, I still think its worth the investment for Moratti, Inter has ruined so many promising careers over the years (Ze mAria, Cesar, Jiminez, Recoba, Ferrari, Quaresma, Mancini, Georgatos, Binotto, Adriano, Pasquale -- I could go on for days) why stop now

actually that's a point of view i didn't consider.

And what do you make of this apparent exodus of world class players from serie A? First Kaka, and possibly Ibra, now I'm hearing Pato and Pirlo are bing courted by Chelsea, Maicon by Real Madrid, Lavezzi is growing increasinlg unhappy at Napoli

it's no big deal mate. top players always move, looking for bigger wages or new challenges (even though that was not kaka's case). some come in, others move abroad...
besides kaka's the only one who left so far... and i don't think ibra, maicon, pirlo or lavezzi will leave.
the ballon d'or means absolutely nothing to me. the last 2 champions league winners are arguably the best teams in europe today... and yet when they won their champions leagues, they had no ballon d'or winners at all in their squads.

so, to make it short, i completely agree with stef

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

This summer we have seen the arrival of Diego, and soon I think Milan will sign some European talent.

Diego? I'm talking about Ballon D'Or candidates, Diego isn't even the Brazil squad for confederations cup (he maybe deserves a place on the sub. bench but still, Brazil won't be building a team around him; IMO Juve were better investing there money and time on either Ribery or Hamisk and then D'Agostino - but that's a sotry for another day ). Milan seem to be building a younger, fresher team with the sigining of Cissoko. I like this idea, but still, they won't be competitive in champions league or serie A. Plus I'm hearing they are ver broke at the moment.

the ballon d'or means absolutely nothing to me. the last 2 champions league winners are arguably the best teams in europe today... and yet when they won their champions leagues, they had no ballon d'or winners at all in their squads.

Kaka did in '07 after winning the champions league that year, Ronaldo the year after, now Messi agains after winning, is set to recieve the Golden Ball. Next year is a WC year so things will be different then. IMO things are just getting started. Serie A is managing to hold onto some of its stars but Man City and Real Madrid throwing such money around, things are sure to change 2/3 years from now. But as the old saying goes, one man's trash is another's treasure. Let Real Madrid spend their way out of trouble, but let the likes of Huntelaar, Sneijder, Gago, Diarra, and Higuain come to Italy .

Yet another question for you Lo Zio, why do you think the likes of Pirlo (with Inter) and D'Agostino (with Roma) and possibly even Pizarro (with Inter and Roma) didn't/haven't succeeded as trequartista's? Particulary Pirlo since he was a revelation with the U21s (I remember fondly because Ventola was also on that U21 team and together they were meant to lead Inter to greatness - funny who things turn out as the years go by). Could it be the pace and physical nature of the game? But then why is Xavi so effective in that role for Barcelona? Would it be possible to convert them back into the original roles? And what are your thoughts on Cassano taking on the role? Watching Italy today, it's evident they need a trequartista or someone to cojoin the midfield and attack. I think Lippi is realizing how blunt their attack is without a 'fantasia' like a Cassano

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Diego? I'm talking about Ballon D'Or candidates, Diego isn't even the Brazil squad for confederations cup (he maybe deserves a place on the sub. bench but still, Brazil won't be building a team around him; IMO Juve were better investing there money and time on either Ribery or Hamisk and then D'Agostino

I'm going to have to disagree here. Sure, Hamsik has potential, but he lacks physical strength and has been quite hot and cold for Napoli. In my opinion he is one of those players that will only bloom in a club like Napoli rather than Juventus. Ribery, imo won't even move this summer, or if he does its because of ridiculous money. D'agostino is a great addition but I don't see him as a Diego kind of player - someone I rate highly due to their ability to change a game with a flick of a finger, much like a Kaka, Messi or a Cristiano Ronaldo.

From what I've seen from Diego over the years - he has the ability to round a player as well as shoot, pass or create... as well as scoring goals. So I really feel he will be a cutting edge in Juve's midfield, more so than the players you mentioned, especially since he is quite a robust player that can replace Nedved's work ethic.

Milan seem to be building a younger, fresher team with the sigining of Cissoko. I like this idea, but still, they won't be competitive in champions league or serie A. Plus I'm hearing they are ver broke at the moment.

I agree too, I really am feeling quite excited. Cissokho was quite impressive in the CL and Porto games I saw. I think we will compete in Serie A actually, mainly due to mental confidence and a new style. Kaka leaving and Gourcuff leaving allows Milan to play with width finally. Those 2 players were very restricting for our desired style of play. I'm sure Leonardo will play a 4-3-3 with Ronnie and Pato playing out wide. About us being broke - sure we have debt, but not broke to the point of not being able to invest. We signed Cissokho for around 15 million, and soon I think Dzeko for around 20 million... and possibly a CB. This can go up to 50 million in one summer.... I'd barely call that poor. Maybe compared to the ridiculous fees Real and Chelsea are paying, but those are unusual. United may have spent £40m on Berbatov... but that was 1 player all summer. I think Milan will be underestimated next season, and we have more players willing to prove themselves.

Kaka did in '07 after winning the champions league that year, Ronaldo the year after, now Messi agains after winning, is set to recieve the Golden Ball. Next year is a WC year so things will be different then. IMO things are just getting started. Serie A is managing to hold onto some of its stars but Man City and Real Madrid throwing such money around, things are sure to change 2/3 years from now.

I'm not trying to dissect everything you say It just I have something to say for your points

But your examples all won it after their teams won it. Their teams were superb, so they stood out. Who knows, if Inter manage to finally win it this year, I'm sure Ibra will be a close winner for the Ballon D'Or. If Milan win it, I'd say someone like Pato is capable of winning it next year as well. Signing a Ballon D'or doesn't really mean anything... its finding a player that will become one that matters these days.... something Real Madrid fail to understand. How many Ballon D'ors replicate their form? I can barely think of any.... Figo, Ronaldo, Owen, Nedved, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Shevchenko..... the list goes on.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Diego? I'm talking about Ballon D'Or candidates, Diego isn't even the Brazil squad for confederations cup

yeah, but u forgot to consider that brazil is now directed by one of the stupidests coaches in the world ...

diego is a great player (not sure if he was also a great buy for juve though)... the ballon d'or nominees don't mean anything.
the whole concept of the ballon d'or doesn't make sense... the top performing player of the season.... what does that even mean! football is a collective game with a high specialization ratio... it's impossible to compare different kind of midfielders, let alone comparing a winger to a center back.... besides on wich basis the winners are choosen? almost every english football journalist doesn't know a thing about serie a and bundes.... a good majority of them don't even get a good grasp on the game itself....
i actually believe i have a much better knowledge of premiership (their own league) than most of em.... and i'm just guy who likes to watch football every now and then...
and that's about english journalists.... try to imagine the average knowledge of a chinese football journalist now.. or a trinida d and tobago football journalist! they just follow the hype.
infact u should call it "the most hyped attacking player of the year award".

Yet another question for you Lo Zio, why do you think the likes of Pirlo (with Inter) and D'Agostino (with Roma) and possibly even Pizarro (with Inter and Roma) didn't/haven't succeeded as trequartista's?

to be honest i have no idea... but we should thank God somebody (ancelotti for pirlo and galeone for d'agostino, i think) realised they could have become such great registi.

watching pirlo playing is like watching a great artist painting a picture... it's something mesmerizing. i was watching the game with some friends yesterday and one of em told "oh gosh, thank God he's still 30".
that great lob in the first half, that first touch-no look through ball in the second half, that unbelievable +30 meters long opening, the ball-hook with his heel.... and what about that sweet assist he did for rossi's 2nd goal.... with his left foot! he's just not human.

as for your cassano question, i believe he could fit in that role.... but i wouldn't want him to, coz i believe this 4-3-3 system could work like a charm.
gilardino upfront, with cassano on one side and one between iaquinta, quagliarella, balotelli or rossi on the other side.

with the crappy defense we have today, the amazing fullbacks we have on the sides, the muscular midfield we display... we need some high quality upfront.... not wingers, attackers. players with the skill and the guts to go for 1 on 1 situations. we need attackers rather than wingers, coz grosso and zambrotta can provide all the crosses gilardino might desire just by themselves.
we can't afford to keep the ball on our own midfield for too long anymore... coz our current defence can't handle such a stress... we need to keep the defensive line as high as we can... and this means moving the possession line as deep in the enemy's territory as we can. that's why cassano, balotelli or rossi or quaglia would be much more useful than camoranesi right now.

i actually hope we fail big time during this confederation cup... so Lippi might change his mind and bring cassano and the "terrific kids" in the team.

yesterday's game proved (once again) how different this italy is from the pervious ones. today we have a ridiculously huge amount of high quality options upfront..... and one of the poorests defensive lines in our history. so we MUST adjust our football accordingly to our arsenal (and to our weaknesses).
with just a bit more of coolness upfront, that US team could have been up 2-0 at half time yesterday.

oh and btw that ref was just ridiculous. he gave an absolutely undeserved red card to usa.... didn't send off chiellini, and didn't give usa the 2nd penalty.... he basically killed the match.... i can't believe people in italy complain about italian referees

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I dont understand why Camoranesi started this game.... Grosso too. I think we need a bit more pace up front... as soon as Montolivo and Rossi were on, the team was far more creative and free flowing. This allowed Pirlo to finally turn on.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I dont understand why Camoranesi started this game.... Grosso too.

i do agree about camoranesi... but grosso?? he was absolutely amazing. by far the man of the match. infact grosso has been the man of the match in each of the last 5 italy games he played... i wouldn't trade him for the likes of lahm or evra!

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I really wanted to see Italy experiment like in the friendlies but it seems Lippi sticks to his boys. But Rossi is proving himself.

Check this out

I wonder if they'll see il Puma Emerson ..

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

nice pics so cute
as for "the puma", those animals are all puppies... they're young... emerson can't be found there

about the experiments, well, lippi is actually trying to begin the transition phase... but way too slowly. with donadoni in charge, balotelli, d'agostino, palombo and cassano would already be part of italy's project.

the thing is federcalcio shouldn't have appoint him in first place. firing donadoni was a tremendous mistake. with lippi, it's gonna take much longer, but i'm confident eventually he'll do the right thing

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I think Milan will be underestimated next season, and we have more players willing to prove themselves

Like who? Pato, as talented as he is, still has some way to go yet IMO. And all that money was from selling Kaka and perhaps the deal with Gourcuff. I have a friend (also a Milanista) in Sao Paulo who says Milan can't even dream about buying Hernandes because there's no way they can afford him. Unless you step up your transfer campaign (its early days yet) I see Milan landing third, perhaps 4th behind Fiorentina who atleast have a solid foundation to build on and are making some interesting moves in the transfer market.

United may have spent £40m on Berbatov... but that was 1 player all summer.

They didn't need any other player to complete their squad, Milan needs a keeper, 2 CBs (Nesta won't last a whole season), an attacking midfielder, and a seasoned striker. Goodluck

diego is a great player (not sure if he was also a great buy for juve though)...

Agreed. Although when I said this to a mate who is a diehard Juve fan (well Del Piero fan)he replied, "well at least he's better than 3/4s of Inter."
Diego is a good player but with Hamsik you have limited potential plus serie A experience which is very important, and Ribery is just world class. Anyway, time will tell if Diego will be ready at this point of his career to shoulder the weight of expectation, and take Juve to previous heights of greatness they've grown accustomed to over the years. But IMO, he's already peaked, as has his best mate Robinho.

he was absolutely amazing. by far the man of the match. infact grosso has been the man of the match in each of the last 5 italy games he played... i wouldn't trade him for the likes of lahm or evra!

Well Evra I would consider, but Grosso is amazing in the final 1/3. Defensively he's too prone to errors.

the ballon d'or nominees don't mean anything. the whole concept of the ballon d'or doesn't make sense... the top performing player of the season.... what does that even mean!

True, it doesn't convey the realities of the field. It's an insult to non-attacking players who get next to no credit for all the work and effort they put in. However I will say this, it's easier to create than to destroy. And at the end of the day, its about the goals scored/created, not prevented (you can only win if you score . Attacking players for the most part are the one's that make the difference. This is why players like Maradona and Pele are considered no. 1 and 2 (in whichever order) and not “Der Kaiser” or Yashin. Anyway my point was, no matter how biased the ballon d'or is, there are becoming fewer and fewer contenders coming from serie A. For example, only 3 players appeared on last years list of 24. As early as Italian teams were eliminated in 08/09 champions league (and Uefa Cup) how many Serie A based players will even make an appearance in this year's event. Sorry but I just miss the 90s . Who do we even have that can compare to Baggio or Sheva or Veron, Basten, Ronaldo, Matthäus?

besides on wich basis the winners are choosen? almost every english football journalist doesn't know a thing about serie a and bundes.... a good majority of them don't even get a good grasp on the game itself... i actually believe i have a much better knowledge of premiership (their own league) than most of em...

Ouch!

i actually hope we fail big time during this confederation cup... so Lippi might change his mind and bring cassano and the "terrific kids" in the team.

Better yet... so Lippi gets fired . Not sure who would replace him tho, donadoni is meh... I wonder what Hiddink could do with this team

the poorests defensive lines in our history

Harsh but probably true. But who else is there? Gamberini? Would you dare put Santacroce in the line of fire? Cristico? Anyway, its time Italy stopped relying so much on their back four in tournaments.

 

[Abhishek]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I think Juventus have been the most sensible this summer. They're investing in exactly what they need. Diego, D'Agostino and Dossena will be tremendous additions to their team.

And how great was it to see Rossi? He'll be a surprise package.

And Ben, can't agree more. Watching Pirlo play is the most magnificent sight in football. He's incredible. Unhuman. I mean, every touch, every movement, it all has a purpose. The way he manages to create space for the whole team. It's incredible. Seems to be playing a whole pace of his own. I watch Italy, just to watch him play.

 

[Zeem]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Like who? Pato, as talented as he is, still has some way to go yet IMO. And all that money was from selling Kaka and perhaps the deal with Gourcuff. I have a friend (also a Milanista) in Sao Paulo who says Milan can't even dream about buying Hernandes because there's no way they can afford him. Unless you step up your transfer campaign (its early days yet) I see Milan landing third, perhaps 4th behind Fiorentina who atleast have a solid foundation to build on and are making some interesting moves in the transfer market.

They didn't need any other player to complete their squad, Milan needs a keeper, 2 CBs (Nesta won't last a whole season), an attacking midfielder, and a seasoned striker. Goodluck

Well mate, there is something financially going on with Milan. I don't know if we are in debt or the administration is not willing to spend. What I have realized is that we are trying to balance the wage issue. Selling players with high wages and getting some with low although the fee might be high.

Milan definitely have a plan in this window. Going after young low waged players, although the defender must be world class. Hopefully we will get Dzeko as he's got the characteristics we miss. A big 193 cm guy upfront.

I always said we need: GK,CB,LB,ST

We got the LB, St is on the way, and I think the others will come. Maybe the GK not in this window.

Surely a competitive team if it happens with a very balanced midfield. Sure we lost our superstar but the same happened in 2006 and we won the CL after that with a new superstar emerging. Counting on Pato being our Superstar.

As for Pirlo, anyone saw how he shoots his FK's? He tends to hit the ground before the ball reaches the GK so that it deflects. Yet to work but amazing Technique and PURE MAGIC!

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

rfu, i got to disagree on the "Attacking players for the most part are the one's that make the difference" infact it's pretty much the opposite. the thing is we don't notice it. Bergomi said someting quite spot on last week "u wanna know what's the most frustrating thing about being a defender? u can have the best performance of your life, be focused and aware for 89 minutes... stop each and every attack the opponent try... then u commit 1 single mistake, wich leads to a goal.
well u can be sure no one will think about your glorious performance, everybody will forget all your amazing tackles or coverings, as they will all think about that single mistake.
the fowards situation is quite the opposite. u can be absolutely uneffective for 90 minutes.... then u score a goal during the injury time and suddenly u become the hero of the day"

scoring goals is "cool"... being an attacking player is much more "fancy" than being a defender... and that's the only reason why ronaldo won the last ballon d'or (and not ferdinand, for instance).
of course if world's football journalists would have just a little bit of understanding of the game, the situation would be different...... but then again, if they would really understand the game, then there would be no ballon d'or in the first place.

u say we're getting less and lesser nominees... but that's perfectly goes to show the hype factor in the whole process. for instance i'm absolutely sure fernando torres will get a better position than ibra in the ballon d'or top 20 this season. that is because a good share of the ballon d'or electors don't follow serie a... and yet almost all of them are so stupid they pretend to judge a player just by the few champions league matches they saw (u can really spot that clueless fan-like mentality in many newspaper's articles).... some of them don't even get any serie a coverage in their countries! and yet they will express their "opinion" with their vote.

so let's put the ballon d'or in the right perspective. it is like those silly polls u get to see in football forums. nothing more than that.
so don't miss the 90s. we have our good share of world class players and wannabe world class players today too...
the only thing we really lack of today are world class cbs.

Better yet... so Lippi gets fired . Not sure who would replace him tho, donadoni is meh... I wonder what Hiddink could do with this team

lippi won't be fired, no matter what. ancelotti will take the job after the world cup. and that will be the perfect choice.
hiddink (like capello) wouldn't be the best choice. with the players we have today, we need to play some highly offensive football.

besides when it comes to find a successor to a top class coach like lippi, it's less about class than it is about the project. if we should base our choice on class, than we wouldn't find anyone better than lippi. Donadoni is a very good coach, but he's nowhere near the class of lippi.
but donadoni's project was nice, and it was working really well. he was just very unlucky. when euro 08 started he had to deal with many key players in a poor form or injured and this destroyed the great work he did in the previous 2 years.

Harsh but probably true. But who else is there? Gamberini? Would you dare put Santacroce in the line of fire? Cristico? Anyway, its time Italy stopped relying so much on their back four in tournaments.

it's not a matter of players. chiellini became a top class cb, and since we don't have any other top class cb (except cannavaro, who however isn't the perfect partner for chiellini) legrottaglie is the wisest choice. they play and practice together all season long, so their movements are supposed to be perfectly coordinated.
thing is this is the most chaotic and uncoordinated cb couple that ever played with the azzurra jersey since i watch football.
----------------------------------------------------------------

concerning the "it's about time we stop relying that much on our defence" point u just gave me the chance to speak about something i never talked about before.

since we abbandoned the catenaccio system (about 50 years ago) we never relied on our defence anymore (except the trapattoni period).

the thing is people always get the idea we were a conservative team, coz our football isn't based on possession.
every nation has its own football school. our school is pretty much the oppposite of the spanish one.

the spanish's conception of the game is horizontal, and that's why possession is vital to their game.
the italian game instead is mostly based on the verticalization and the changes of tempo.

think of italy as a top class boxer who can take a lot of punishment. when he's in the right mood, he will probably win the match. when he's not in the right mood or form, instead, he's not likely to win..... but still, since he can take it so well, since he can endure to a severe punishment, it won't be easy to knock him out.

that's the real point. all the teams in the world usually loose when their player aren't in a good form or mood. they come up with a poor performance and loose.
we often didn't. even when we were in a bad form or mood, even when our artist, our baggios our rossis, our altobellis or our tonis were uninspired, we could still hang on our defence and save the day.
and that's what generated all this hatred and anger towards italy imo. when the others were in a bad form they used to loose, while we were able to get some results even when we were playing bad.
and the fact that we don't play for possession inculcate in the fans the wrong idea that we were a defensive team.
there's no such a thing as a national team with a defensive attitude, because there's no room for draws in national competitions.

we never were a defensive team (except the catenaccio era and the trapattoni era) we were a top team with an unbelievably good defence.... wich is very different.

example: people usually argument the "italy is a defesive team" by taking as example the game vs netherlands in euro 2000. that is just wrong. that day we were in a horrible form.... and we played for 80 minutes with 10 men..... that was not a defensive display... that was just a poor display.
playing with 1 man less against another top team in its own country.... any other team would have lost that match.
but when your defensive line is formed by THE best lefback in the world, THE best rightback in the world and THE 2 best cbs in the world... it's gonna be damn hard to score agaisnt u.... even if u're having a bad day.

as a matter of fact for 25 years we had the best defensive line in the world. 2 consecutive generation of world class interpreters in each defensive role. infact they were not just world class.... they were the very best among the world class.
on the right (tassotti and then zambrotta), on the left (cabrini and then maldini) on the centre (baresi and bergomi and then nesta and cannavaro)...... the best in the world in each defensive role.

like all the others top teams, we had our share of world class fowards, fantasistas, midfielders..... but we always had an advantage on the other top teams; our defence.
today we can't count on this advantage anymore... and i'm afraid we just got to get used to it.

 

[Abhishek]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Interesting to hear about that. I think the problem is, Italy had the perfect 'partnership; of CBs. I mean Nesta and Cannavaro just complimented each other so well. One was a tremendous interceptor (Cannavaro), while the other was great taking the ball away (Nesta).

How would you describe Chiellini and his perfect partner?

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

so don't miss the 90s. we have our good share of world class players

It used to be Serie A had the most. And then teams like Roma and Lazio entered into financial crisis, Juve lost millions of revenue after being relegated... I think it will take a while yet until Serie returns to prominence as the no.1 league with the best, team-carrying players and coaches in the world in the fold.

think of italy as a top class boxer who can take a lot of punishment. when he's in the right mood, he will probably win the match.

A-ha, like rope-a-dope (Ali vs Foreman). Still, I think you are over-valuing the Italian game just a tad, as if serie a teams and coaches are so tactically and technically superior to thier premiership and la liga counterparts. It maybe true in some respects, however saying that the ITalian NT doesn't play defensive or conservative is like saying water isn't wet.

we never were a defensive team (except the catenaccio era and the trapattoni era) we were a top team with an unbelievably good defence.... wich is very different.

What about Zoff in Euro 2000? in the final against France the line up was completely defensive (cannavaro-nesta-iuliano-maldini;pessotto-albertini-di biagio-fiore;delvecchio-totti). Through out the tournament TOtti played alongside Delvecchio (or was it Inzaghi), never as a trequartista, behind the front pair, as he did with Roma. Granted the days of man-to-man marking and playing with a sweeper are long gone, and catenaccio is an outdated approach and rarely used, but Italy do play defensive/conservative. I imagine because the they play too tactically and they're too worried about losing. Another thing is the physically, they just can't keep up with the tempo of modern game. THis goes for all Serie A team in general, for example, Inter vs Man Utd, or Arsenal versus Milan the year before. Also, with the Italian NT, the offensive players aren't given much freedom to reign and unleash their offensive arsenal. But things are definately changing, this 4-3-3 formation that has emerged over recent years, for example. However the defensive/conservative approach is so ingrained in the Italian mindset that its unlikely to change any time soon, and I for one don't mid at all . Italians (Cannavaro and Maldini for me) have made defending "cool" and hip. The France-Italy final is still one of my favorite games of all time.

How would you describe Chiellini and his perfect partner?

I would say a defensive organizer. Cannavaro would be best because he has vast experience, Nesta also. I bet Maldini wouldn't do so bad either inspite of his age. I would like to see P. Cannavaro drafted into the NT, not only because he's Fabio's brother, but because he has that composure and leadership skills to keep those around him organized and balanced. He's still not yet at that level, and I doubt he will be ready by 2010, but with Napoli slowly growing into a top notch side, he could very well reach that point by Euro 2012.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

It used to be Serie A had the most. And then teams like Roma and Lazio entered into financial crisis, Juve lost millions of revenue after being relegated... I think it will take a while yet until Serie returns to prominence as the no.1 league with the best, team-carrying players and coaches in the world in the fold.

it won't ever happen mate. there will never be a world leading league again, coz the whole european scenario changed... and that's a great thing.
but mate 90's serie a was not serie a at his best at all.... the hype around the league was bigger, but the football wasn't better.
a couple of years ago, during an interview, totti said something spot on (i know it doesn't make much sense, but still ). asked about the difference between capello's roma (the "glorious" roma wich won the scudetto) and last season's roma, he said "we had a better team, filled with stars in every role.... but talking about football, we were nowhere near as good as we are today. those days our stars brought us the results... today is the whole team that wins the matches"

Still, I think you are over-valuing the Italian game just a tad, as if serie a teams and coaches are so tactically and technically superior to thier premiership and la liga counterparts.

nah i don't. infact i don't rate serie a more than epl or la liga. we are just different. and i would never say the italian school is more technical than the spanish one or than the argentinian one. sure our tactical imprint is on a different level (anyone could tell that). but that doesn't mean our football is superior, of course, as football is not just about tactics. we can be as skilled and as tactically sophisticated as we want, we will always tend to crack under stress. every school as its own weaknesses. we can't express ourselves under pressure. and that's why facing a pacey team who puts a lot of pressure on the ball carrier (like US, for instance) is much more of a challenge for us than facing a team wich bases its football on pure technique (like spain or argentina).
i can tell u, serie a isn't even my favourite league, as my preferences usually change every year, according to the quality of the football i get to watch... last season serie a was on top, but not 2 seasons ago, neither 3 seasons ago or 4.... and neither this season.


and mate zoff's italy a defensive team? that is quite a blasphemy. that 4-4-2 was one of the most offensive setups in the whole tournament. fiore and totti (btw totti did play behind the fowards in that tournament) in the same starting 11 plus 1\2 fowards upfront (it was either delvecchio or delvecchio and del piero or insaghi and montella).
that was one of the most beautiful italy teams i ever saw (probably the most beautiful). and that italy was everything but conservative. infact right after the final, zoff was fired because those idiots at the federcalcio thought that team was a bit too "naive" and offensive.

I imagine because the they play too tactically and they're too worried about losing

tactics and mentality are 2 different things. worries and pressure can effect the way the players apply the tactical directives the coach gives.... but tactics can't effect your state of mind, your coolness or your mentality.
as u pointed out, in the last 2 years we were seriously spanked by our english counterparts... but that was not coz of conservative tactics... it was a mentality issue. our mental approach to the game was never really good..... but that's pretty understandable afterall... when u know u're about to face a stronger opponent, it's quite natural to have a worried and scared approach... this mental approach usualy makes things even worse for u.... but it's not like u can do anything about it, as u just can't decide not to be worried about facing an opponent wich is better than u are

Another thing is the physically, they just can't keep up with the tempo of modern game.

it's not a matter of tempo. we can deal with every possible tempo; the argentinian or the english, as our football (unlike the others) has not a specific tempo. what we can't handle is the pressure, wich is a different thing.
everyone thinks the british game has a higher tempo.... because the players run more and for longer. well that is just wrong. because is not the pace of the players that makes the tempo of the game. the ball movements (the passing game) that's what makes the tempo.
the british game is tougher, more phisical, it's mostly based on pressing..... and that's what we can't deal with... the pressure, not the "high tempo".
but then again this is an historycal issue of all the latin technical schools (spanish, brazilian, portuguese, italian, argentinian). it usually turns out in a battle for who decides the "theme" of the game. when we manage to force a "british-like" team to play our football, we usually win; when the "british-school opponent manages to impose its football, then we usually crack.

when i think about baldini's inventions, about sacchi's football, about boskov's sampdoria, about zoff's italy, about zaccheroni's 4-3-3 system (wich was "copied" by rjkaard and guardiola at barcelona)... it gets really hard for me to consider the italian school as "conservative"
as hodgson said "u find me 1 gaming system displayed in europe in the last 30 years, wich wasn't experimented and created in italy, and then i'll agree with u that italian football is conservative" (u gotta love the man!).

that zoff "defensive" team scored with 7 different players during euro 2000 (conte inzaghi, fiore, del piero, del vecchio, totti, di biagio)..... 6 matches, 9 goals, 7 different scorers... does it sound "defensive"?

the whole italian\defensive equation is just a clichè... pretty much like those about english footie (that english footie is technically poor, that its "tempo" is the highest).... some wrong concepts, wich became "facts" just because the media "jumped" on them for ages.

How would you describe Chiellini and his perfect partner?

that sounds like a good question for dominic, abhi. to be honest, i don't really know

 

[gerd]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I've been following the discussion for a couple of days.
You people usually make much more sense than i would do.
But i wanna say something about hte Ballon D'or and the FIFA player of the Year.
These trophies are bullshit, individual trophies do not make sense in a team sport. Now and then all time great like Maradonna, Pele and (maybe most of all) Cruijff are so important because of their talent or vision and talent (Cruijff).

But these are the real greats. Messi could become one of the all-time greats, but in the end this does not matter.
When Argetina won the WC in 1986, they had more than Maradonna, they had a pretty good team (Burruchaga, Valdano, Brown,...), same thing for Napoli.

Even Cruijff could shine because Neeskens and other team mates were brilliant lieutenants.

I remember the WC of 1990 in Italy. Never a Belgian team played better football. The star of the team was Enzo Scifo. But Scifo was brilliant because DMF Franky Vanderelst was also outstanding.

I Cristiano Ronaldo would have been more of team player, Manchester United xouldhave scored the first goal in the recent CL Final. One could argue that that final was lost by a star...

Stars are the spices in the food, but often they are less essential than people think.

 

[rfU]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

I Cristiano Ronaldo would have been more of team player, Manchester United xouldhave scored the first goal in the recent CL Final. One could argue that that final was lost by a star...

What's this... another CR7 hater... would Man U have got this far without him? No! Thats what star players do, make a difference. thats why their paid (ridiculous) millions.

When Argetina won the WC in 1986, they had more than Maradonna, they had a pretty good team (Burruchaga, Valdano, Brown,...), same thing for Napoli.

Gerd, I'm taking you less and less seriously with every word you utter. It's like Inter today, even I hate to admit it, but if Ibra wasn't around we would be very screwed. Some players are just irreplacable, as I said before, you don't score, you don't win. Obviously you need some semblance of a team otherwise all 4 defenders would man-mark Mardaona/CR7/Ibra and then where would we be. But such players shoulder the burden of the enitre team. Lo Zio made a rather outrageous comment which I ignored at first but decided to bring to light here...

being an attacking player is much more "fancy" than being a defender... and that's the only reason why ronaldo won the last ballon d'or (and not ferdinand, for instance).

the man scored 42 goals, I repeat... 42 goals... you wonder why he shrugs his shoulders after every stunning goal, the man just had no competition. And Lo Zio, Vidic would've been a better comparison IMO . Now, I do agree, defensive players get the shaft when it comes to the Ballon D'Or, Stoichkov instead of Maldini for example (I say this through gritted teeth as I am Inter fan). Is the award pointless? Maybe. A waste of time? Perhaps. But then again does the champions league or world cup cup really reward the best team in the world? No, just the team that scores the most goals

asked about the difference between capello's roma (the "glorious" roma wich won the scudetto) and last season's roma, he said "we had a better team, filled with stars in every role.... but talking about football, we were nowhere near as good as we are today. those days our stars brought us the results... today is the whole team that wins the matches"

Blasphemous son of a... . He says this after conceding 60 goals in one season. Okay, maybe this current Roma side has had more time playing together so they're more familair with one another. But for me that Roma side was a joy to watch, so balanced and cohesive... players like Delvecchio and Tommasi weren't stars, Totti wasn't even at his 'world class' best yet... the only real star player they had at the time was Batistuta, but most (Emerson, Candela, Monetlla) were unprovenat the time.

we can't express ourselves under pressure. and that's why facing a pacey team who puts a lot of pressure on the ball carrier (like US, for instance) is much more of a challenge for us than facing a team wich bases its football on pure technique (like spain or argentina).

Agreed.

and mate zoff's italy a defensive team? that is quite a blasphemy. that 4-4-2 was one of the most offensive setups in the whole tournament. fiore and totti (btw totti did play behind the fowards in that tournament)

Disagree. The fact that the Italian NT conceded so much possesion when they had players Fiore and Toti in the fold, illustrates their level of conservativeness. Anyway, how many games did they play 4-4-2 vs 3-5-2? The typical lineup was cannavaro-nesta-iuliano;zambrotta-albertini-conte-maldini;fiore;Totti-Inzaghi. Why not sacrifice Conte for another forward? Same thing happened WC '02 with Toti partnering Vieri up front. Only time Italy took the initiative to my recollection was WC '06 with Zambrotta and Grosso playing very offensive. But like you said, I think its ap problem facing pacey teams that press the ball carriers.

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

the man scored 42 goals, I repeat... 42 goals... you wonder why he shrugs his shoulders after every stunning goal, the man just had no competition. And Lo Zio, Vidic would've been a better comparison IMO

oh com on man, u know what i meant! i didn't mean to talk specifically about ronaldo, neither to question his victory. i just picked him and (Imo) the last season european top performing cb, and told u they would have never picked the centre back. and mate, it's not because he scored 42 goals. even if ronaldo would have scored 15 goals (1 of them being in the final) he would have won the ballon d'or no matter what. and we all know that.
the history of the ballon d'or is there to tell us. that is not a prize for the baresis, the redondos, the scholes, the maldinis, the xavis, the pirlos, the scireas......
because people loves the fowards, the supporting strikers, the wingers.... they are the ones who attract money and hype.

however mate i respect your view. besides, if the ballon d'or had such a huge success in the last 50 years it's because most of the people likes the idea. personally i don't think it's a waste of time (at least it doesn't waste my time)... i think it's just ridiculous, but hey, always give the people what they want, so...

your last post allowed me to spot the root of our different views.

it's like Inter today, even I hate to admit it, but if Ibra wasn't around we would be very screwed. Some players are just irreplacable, as I said before, you don't score, you don't win. Obviously you need some semblance of a team otherwise all 4 defenders would man-mark Mardaona/CR7/Ibra and then where would we be. But such players shoulder the burden of the enitre team.

that's where our views are very very different. and i think this difference also explains why u miss the 90s (because we had a few more stars those days); and also explains why u implied that adding another foward would have made zoff's italy more "offensive".
what can i say, we have very, very different opinions on this concern. i consider football a collective game where one player (no matter how good he is) can't make the difference just by himself.
infact i can't think of 1 star who was able to "shoulder the burden of the entire team".
u think without ibra inter would be screwed.... well ibra is a world class player and is departure would be a huge blow, but as gerd said ibra is the icey on the cake. the core of the team is not ibra.... is cambiasso, is zanetti, is chivu. u could do without ibra.... not so well sure, but i'm confident that would be the perfect chance for balotelli to get some starter playtime and become world class....but without those 3 guys.... then u would be screwed.

the same way, i can tell u the great thing about man utd is not ronaldo. he's a fantastic player, no doubt.... but the real core of man utd can't be found in ronaldo. it can be found in carrick, in rooney, in vidic, in rio, in evra, in park, in tevez.
what makes man utd a better team than inter is not ronaldo. they have (had) their star, u have your star (ibra).... what makes them a better team is having a fantastic foward (rooney) who always sacrifice himself and goes on pressure on the ball carreer... and sticks to his man until the edge of van der saar's box (as if he were a sideback), carrick''s geometry, park's and tevez's hard work. theese are the factors that made man utd the best team in the world.... it's not just about ronaldo. and btw i'm not a ronaldo "hater" i love him as a player.

Blasphemous son of a... . He says this after conceding 60 goals in one season

he said that last season, he wasn't talking about this season.

Disagree. The fact that the Italian NT conceded so much possesion when they had players Fiore and Toti in the fold, illustrates their level of conservativeness. Anyway, how many games did they play 4-4-2 vs 3-5-2? The typical lineup was cannavaro-nesta-iuliano;zambrotta-albertini-conte-maldini;fiore;Totti-Inzaghi. Why not sacrifice Conte for another forward?

mate, possession doesn't mean having an offensive attitude! there's no relation between possession and mental approach. possession refers just to your style. we will never play for possession... i mean today we play with a very offensive 4-3-3... and we still don't play for possession.
spain has been the most boring team in europe for about 20 years... and they've always played for possession (here in italy we used to say "if football were played without goals and nets, spain would always win the world cup"). u need a more fresh example? what about last season's barcelona? probably the most annoying football in the last 5 years.... and it was all about possession.
it is never a good idea to judge a team's attitude from the stats, as they can be pretty deceptive (ball possession especially), u should at least combine different stats, like ball possession + shots + corners.... and still u probably wouldn't be able to have a right picture of the match.
just let me picture that team for u

---------------zambrotta-------------------------cannavaro----------------------nesta--------------------------------maldini


--------------------------------------------------------------------albertini
---------------------------------conte-----------------------------------------------------------------pessotto\di livio


-------------------------------------totti------------------------------------------------------fiore
---------------------------------------------------------------del vecchio\inzaghi

u think it could have been more offensive than this??? how? swapping conte for another foward?? u realise that would mean having just 2 midfielders and 4 attackers???!! that would be so unbalanced the team wouldn't have gone through the group stage, let alone reaching the final. besides conte was italy's de rossi..... u can't play football with a pure quality playmaker like albertini, 2 advanced midfielders, 2 fowards and no metodistas... that would be a suicide.

and however, to be precise, zoff used to switch one of the advanced midfielders\sp for another foward during half time. wich means that the team usually ended the match with 1 between totti and fiore behind 2 fowards (between inzaghi, del piero, montella, del vecchio).

i think u underestimated that data i wrote in my previous post.... that team scored with 7 different players in 6 matches... almost every player from the starting 11! Now that's a stat wich can tell u something about a team.
and this is actually something pretty usual for italy. we always score with almost all our players. the fowards aren't the only ones who are involved in the offensive phase (wich is the trademark of a conservative team; leaving the cbs, the sidebacks and the midfielders behind the ball line and just let the attacking players to take care of the offensive phase).. we attack and score with our midfielders and defenders too.
the 2006 world cup for instance 7 matches, 12 goals, 10 different scorers. each member of our defensive line (except cannavaro) managed to score at least once.

ask everybody in italy wich was their favourite italia team in the last 25 years and they'll all pick zoff's italia.
u say that the only offensive italy u recall is lippi's one (wc 06). but that was not an offensive team at all. that was a balanced team.... zoff's italy was much much more offensive.

trust me mate u picked the wrong example. actually there's no good example u could possibly pick to argument your "italy is a defensive team" point. because that clichè can survive just as long as u look at it from a wide and out of focus point of view.
but as soon as u take a closer look, as soon as u really watch how sacchi's italy used to play, or zoff's italy, donadoni's italy, vicini's italy, bearzot's italy (as u probably noticed i mentioned every italy' coach in the last 28 years.... except trapattoni).... when u stop thinking about the clichèes and start watching with your own eyes what we're talking about, then the truth comes out.

 

[Dominic]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Is that team correct? I think Zambrotta played purely as midfielder back then. Wasn't Pessotto used as the right back?

 

[lo zio]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Is that team correct? I think Zambrotta played purely as midfielder back then. Wasn't Pessotto used as the right back?

u know actually u're probably right. zambro became a fullback in 2001, now that i think about it.
my mistake. as soon as i thought about zambro, i immediately placed him as a fullback

however pessotto did play at midfield as an internal-left once. it was the first or the 2nd match of the competition, if i remember well. he turned out to be pretty poor there and so zoff moved him back on the defensive line.

man, u have quite a memory!

 

[Milanista]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Did anyone watch the under-21 Sweden - Italy game? Great goals and great team work. Our young team has real fighting spirit, something Lippi's Italy lacks.

Balotelli's goal was very nice. Great turn and pass by Giovinco.

YouTube - Mario Balotelli Great Goal 1-0 - Italy vs Sweden - U21 Euros

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

Both will become top players, I think Giovinco needs games at this stage of his career though

 

[Leo Bax]

Re: Serie A Thread - 2008/2009 Season

YouTube - Espulsione Balotelli Svezia-Italia U21 19.06.2009

OH MY GOD, come on guys let's go to help Sweden N°19, someone from crowds shooted him with a 44 Magnum !!!!

ehm....no, from the replay seems Balotelli gave him a looooooooooow kick...

seriously, f**k off this and all cheaters (italian too), now we lost one of our best players.. It was the same in WC2006, Materazzi (another dickhead as Mario) was sent in Australia game..refereer seems to hate italian di**heads...