Serie A Thread - 2014/15 Season

Well with Carpi and Frosinone promoting, there is an exciting season ahead...

Oh, and in the end Palermo did much better than you feared, Ben.
 
gerd said:
Oh, and in the end Palermo did much better than you feared, Ben.
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yup! it was a wild ride!!! gotta hand it to Damjan.... he was right all along about Palermo this season. :APPLAUD:
Godotelli said:
Here is today’s question.....
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the real question is why would u waste your time reading martin samuel :D.... a condescending moron, whose over the top chauvinism is only matched by his distaste towards any form of fact-checking or "research" (which is quite evident from his pieces) and his ridiculous hatred towards anything remotely connected to france... and especially to platini, against whom he launched a personal crusade ever since michel took office (and mind u, i'm no fan of platini either).

as for the topic of conversation, i'm in no position to talk about FFP, coz i never bothered reading the regulations (and never really payed much attention to what journalist write on the issue, as journalists usually can't get anything right about such matters), but indeed from day one it was pretty evident FFP was exposed to some ridiculous loopholes.

but the assumptions made by samuel concerning the role played by milano clubs in uefa's strategies are downright ridiculous. certainly there is a circle of european clubs who can pressure the federation towards certain courses of action.... and the milano clubs are definitely part of that circle.... but i seriously doubt they are the most influential actors on that scene (infact, if anything milan clubs have probably lost much of their influence over the last 10 years).

also FFP is not the reason why berlusconi didn't sell the whole club. infact berlusconi wanted to sell only a fraction of the club, so that he could find fresh money, while remaining at the helm of the club. he got exactly what he set out to (at least for the time being).

and to say berlusconi and moratti can't keep up with the abramovichs and the mansours and all the new rich owners isn't really accurate.... they could keep up with them (very much so, infact) they just didn't want to anymore.
keep in mind moratti and berlusconi have been in this circus for more than 20 years...can u imagine abramovich or the mansour family display such a financial committment over such a long period of time? even assuming they would still be the owners of their clubs 20 years from now, do u think they would still invest the same kinda money in them? i don't think so.

so, after splashing about 100 millions euros every season (just to cover for current expenses!!!) for many years, moratti got tired and left.
as for berlusconi, the situation is different. he didn't got tired of spending crazy money on milan..... but his daughter did.
many years ago, when berlusconi threw himself into politics, in order to avoid a monumental conflict of interests, he had to "disinvest" from his business ventures. therefore he left his daughter Marina in charge of Fininvest, the main holding company of the berlusconi family. Berlusconi always financed milan with money coming from fininvest, but after a few years marina grew tired of splashing dozens of millions every year, just to let his daddy play with his favourite toy... so she cut the funding.
hence the need for a new investor.

looking at the situation from a broader perspective, i think the ones who were damaged the most by the implementation of FFP were the sponsors. club owners certainly took a hit, but not as big as them. infact club owners proved u can easily circumvent FFP with some obvious expedients.... FFP is just a nuisance to them, but is a real problem for sponsors. so if i were to set out to find out who's pressuring uefa into toning down FFP, i'd rather look in that direction.
infact, as martin pointed out, FFP even favours the elite clubs under some aspects, allowing them to mantain the status quo and to cripple potential upstarters.
and i don't think FFP makes it any harder for club owners to find potential buyers (as the moratti-thohir deal proved).

i gotta say i love the way some journalists make up facts to support their half-ass theories. this article is filled with false axioms, which samuel casually mentions, as if they were established truths, without even trying to prove them..
- milan and inter (alone!) somehow pressured platini to introduce FFP. :CONF:
- Platini built up an entire program based on such pressure (a program which was, btw, supposed to be the cornerstone of his presidency)
- then, when moratti and berlusconi changed their mind (does he even know moratti sold inter years ago?).... and once again, platini immediately bent to milan pressure... why... i don't know i guess berlusconi and moratti got some dirt on michel....
- berlusconi can't sell milan because of FFP...:CONF:
- berlusconi and moratti can't keep up with the new generation of rich club owners (does he have any idea who berlusconi and moratti are?).
ridiculous. just ridiculous. :D

i don't know what's more grotesque: that he actually makes a living out of writing such bullshit..... that someone pays him to write that trash..... or that some people even bother reading his articles.
 
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That first paragraph, such lack of self awareness :ROLL:

Considering Platini mentioned these owners by name as being of great concern when setting up FFP, it's hardly an assumption!

As for most of the rest, you should probably respond to the actual article rather than straw man it.
 
Godotelli said:
That first paragraph, such lack of self awareness :ROLL:
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wow! really? that's your reaction to my post?!? a not so veiled insult?! i gotta say, unless u're somehow related to martin samuel, that was really uncalled for.
i didn't insult u or mock u... nor i intended to. i simply gave u an advice (the kind i would give to a friend): to be more selective in picking your sources of information.
and, so that u would have something more than my personal opinion to go by, i even took the time to remark everything false and uncorrect about that article u linked (as an example of what kind of a journalist samuel is).
i spent 5 minutes writing that last post.... 5 minutes of my life i dedicated to educating u about the actual reasons why milan and inter cut their spending, about why berlusconi is just looking for inverstors and doesn't want to sell the club..... and this is how u respond!?!
well, i guess that's what i deserve for trying to have a conversation with u (yet again)..... but it's okay, it's not gonna happen again.

anyway, replying to your sly insinuation (which u so elegantly veiled with the kind of sarcasm one would expect from a teenager), YES, i can be obnoxiously condescending... despite what u said, i'm well aware of that.
but in all fairness i also don't take myself much seriously.... i'm able to admit my flaws and even laugh at them (when someone expose them with more class than u did, that is). it's also worth mentioning that i'm not a professional journalist. what we're doing here is the equivalent of some friendly banter at a bar.... if i were to write a piece for a newspaper.... an article to be read by thousands of people, i believe i would try and contain my ego a little bit better than martin samuel.

also, even though i'm no journalist, i have the decency to always remark if what i'm writing is an established fact or just an assumption...... i don't mask my personal opinions for facts, like mr. samuel does.

finally, as for your "moron" insinuation, to be honest, i don't really see myself as one...... but then again, the fact that i'm still replying to u doesn't really help my case here.
however that can be easily fixed. i apologise for my condescending tone and i apologise for exposing your (apparently beloved) martin samuel for what he is... but don't worry, from now on u can quote in your posts the daily mail, the sun, even cosmopolitan for all i care... i'm just gonna ignore u.

EDIT: actually, wait a minute....i will induge u one last time.
godotelli said:
Considering Platini mentioned these owners by name as being of great concern when setting up FFP, it's hardly an assumption!
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WTF!!?! hardly an assumption?!? do u understand the difference betweeen an assumption and a proven fact?
if u think that the fact platini mentioned in an interview that berlusconi and moratti were concerned by the implementation of FFP, somehow proves that platini wants to change such policy because of some sort of pressure those 2 would have applied on him, then i can see why u even read such trash....
this isn't "hardly an assumption"..... it's precisely an assumption..... it's the very definition of the word.
where's the causal link between berlusconi's and moratti's concerns and uefa's strategies? where's the proof that those concerns where the actual reason why platini would be changing his mind? and if berlusconi's and moratti's opinion really carries such weight, then why did platini ignored their concerns and moved forward with FFP in the first place? if they're such powerful and influential people, then their criticism towards FFP should have been enough to prevent FFP to even kick in. why their concern wasn't enough to stop platini back then, but is suddenly the reason why platini is changing his mind now??
there's nothing to tie theese 2 episodes apart from samuel's opinion.... and if u can't even tell the difference between an established fact and an assumption, well, like i said, i do understand why u read the daily mail now.
but like i already said, don't worry. as far as i'm concerned, from now on u can rehash any sort of conspiracy theory or nationalistic bullshit the likes of martin samuel feed u. i'll just ignore it (which is what i should have done from the beginning).
 
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if berlusconi's and moratti's opinion really carries such weight, then why did platini ignored their concerns and moved forward with FFP in the first place?
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Seriously? You're dishing out all this shit towards Samuel and myself and you come out with that? Deary me...

Because everything is either assumption or proven fact?
It is not an assumption when one of the parties involved tells the world...

The only thing you have said that is worth talking about is the intentions of SB with regard to his bid to sell, but other than that it doesn't even appear that you read the article (at least not with out getting all defensive - your nationalist projections are transparent)

BTW, 2nd rule of the internet: The first to start throwing the words "kid" and "teenager" around is usually a kid or teenager.
 
Godotelli said:
The only thing you have said that is worth talking about is the intentions of SB with regard to his bid to sell, but other than that it doesn't even appear that you read the article (at least not with out getting all defensive - your nationalist projections are transparent)
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my nationalist projections? you really believe i would defend berlusconi or moratti? that's hilarious. i can't stand berlusconi and i always considered moratti an idiot. infact i don't think i've ever wrote anything nice about them in here. My only interest is remarking the difference between complot theories based on half-assed assumptions and facts.

anyway, let's just drop it here. this sort of silly confrontation bores me and it was clearely my mistake to reply in the first place.
 
I think the loosening of FFP, is the result of many factors. Legally, I don't think it would have stood up to a challenge, it's essential premise was that you couldn't invest (via loan, cash injection etc) in a football club beyond it's projected revenues. This is contrary to most common business practices (where investments can be made via private ownership, secured loans (corporate bonds) and via stock floatation). Additionally elements of FFP seemed anti competitive, essentially it created a ceiling which prevented (or at least prohibitively restrained) new clubs breaking into European Football's elite. So long as no clubs legally challenged FFP this wouldn't have been a problem, but if clubs did challenge it, it could have been deemed anti-competitive and repealed. I think that is why FFP is being watered down, if no club legally challenges it it might work, but as soon as there is a serious legal challenge it could collapse, UEFA probably know (expect) this and so watering it down reduces the chance of a club seriously objecting and so reduces the chance of a legal challenge. UEFA probably decided that some (weaker) form of FFP regulation is better than no regulation (i.e. a legally collapsed FFP).

Could it have been the result of a personal decision by Platini, possibly, and possibly there was a degree of influence by some clubs. But it have more to do with PSG/Qatar (for whom Platini's son works) than the Milan clubs.
 
edmundo said:
So long as no clubs legally challenged FFP this wouldn't have been a problem, but if clubs did challenge it, it could have been deemed anti-competitive and repealed.
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it could, but i don't think any club would go that far. there are indeed grouds to challenge FFP for violation of the european competition law, but whoever would file a complaint to the european commission would also have to pay a monumental forfait (for breaking the arbitration clause of the federation contracts).
and since it wouldn't even be a clear-cut case, i don't think any club would consider the challenge worth the forfait.
as u said, diplomatic pressure would be a much safer way..... but obviously it would take much more traction than just milan and inter to have any serious impact on uefa.

besides, crowd-pleasing statements aside, i don't think milan and inter have any real interest in toning down FFP (or having it repealed)... let's be honest, it's not like they would have any serious money to spend anyway (FFP or no FFP).
just last week Tronchetti Provera (ceo of pirelli, inter's main sponsor) stated he's actually planning on downsizing his investment in inter.... and as for milan, this new asian investor seems more like a a thohir kinda guy (meaning a pennywise, clever businessman) than flamboyant crazy spender a la abramovich (but that's just my opinion of course).

btw i didn't know platini's son worked for psg! infact i didn't even know he had a son..... i wouldn't go as far as to scream conflict of interests, but that's..... controversial to say the least! :D
 
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cfdh_edmundo said:
I think the loosening of FFP, is the result of many factors. Legally, I don't think it would have stood up to a challenge, it's essential premise was that you couldn't invest (via loan, cash injection etc) in a football club beyond it's projected revenues. This is contrary to most common business practices (where investments can be made via private ownership, secured loans (corporate bonds) and via stock floatation). Additionally elements of FFP seemed anti competitive, essentially it created a ceiling which prevented (or at least prohibitively restrained) new clubs breaking into European Football's elite. So long as no clubs legally challenged FFP this wouldn't have been a problem, but if clubs did challenge it, it could have been deemed anti-competitive and repealed. I think that is why FFP is being watered down, if no club legally challenges it it might work, but as soon as there is a serious legal challenge it could collapse, UEFA probably know (expect) this and so watering it down reduces the chance of a club seriously objecting and so reduces the chance of a legal challenge. UEFA probably decided that some (weaker) form of FFP regulation is better than no regulation (i.e. a legally collapsed FFP).

Could it have been the result of a personal decision by Platini, possibly, and possibly there was a degree of influence by some clubs. But it have more to do with PSG/Qatar (for whom Platini's son works) than the Milan clubs.
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I think it's a likely few things

- An attempt to end the currently ongoing legal challenge from Dupont, the Bosman lawyer
- poorly performing establishment clubs
- The huge PL TV deal has also probably made a few formerly pro-FFP European clubs less strident
- and perhaps the fact that Platini's son's PSG have again failed FFP whilst other rich benefactor clubs haven't.
- most people have seen through UEFA's FFP PR
 
amineken22 said:
PS: Sorry for the late response I'm not active as much these days so I've only seen this now.
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don't worry buddy.... it's not like i visit the forum every day either, so no problem at all.
thanks for the info, especially about the change of policy regarding co-ownerships. i didn't know about that! is it an italian thing only or will it be a europe-wide change of strategy?

as for the latest news regarging serie a, the berlusconi-bee deal went through (well it's not really a recent news anymore, but anyway).
Berlusconi sold 48% of his club (as every serious journalist and media outlet anticipated), for a little less than 500 million euros (so much for FFP making it difficult for berlusconi to find new investors....).
i gotta say i'm very surprised by this deal.... to me that's an awful lot of money for a minority share in a club like milan. i mean, i'm not a financial advisor and i'm definitely no expert when it comes to this stuff (and by "this stuff" i mean what sort of aspects come into consideration when trying to establish a football club's worth)....
however we are talking about a club which has clearely lost much of its "legendary" status over the last few years... a club who competes in a mid-tier league (coz that's what serie a is theese days) and doesn't even have a chance to win such a league.... a club which doesn't even compete in champions league on a regular basis anymore (let alone having any chance to win the cup). a club which only actual asset is a single real property (milanello, the training ground), as they don't even own the stadium they play in.
how on earth they came up with such a huge pricetag, i just don't understand.
 
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Total coincidence that the sale occurs now after it's common knowledge that FFP is set to be relaxed in the future. The sudden signing of 35mE Martinez is coincidence too, of course.
 
does anybody know anything about this Jonathan Calleri palermo seems to be following recently? :))
 
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I've seen a few Boca matches lately and I like him a lot, but I think a move abroad would come too early right now. He hasn't been at Boca long and some more experience in South-America would be better I think.
 
cheers Damjan. btw do u follow argentinian football closely? a few friends of mine follow it, but i don't trust their opinion as i trust yours (beware: if u answer "yes", i'll probably pester u for infos any time palermo is linked to an argentinian player :D ).
amineken said:
It's more of European overhaul, FIFA banned third party ownership last year and UEFA wanted to do something similar adn so they went after the co-ownership deals and since Italy is where most of the practice takes place Italian club were given a little bit more time to re-order their affairs and regulate themselves.

This article talks about some of the interesting co-ownership deals that are still in place. Might be worth a look
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some very intersting players in that list!
between that and parma players being up for grabs, it should make it for a very interesting summer transfer window.

btw did u guys hear about the new match fixing scandal in serie b?
http://www.lagazzettadelmezzogiorno.it/english/catania-chairman-arrested-in-fresh-match-fixing-scandal-no828351

.... and just when u thought italian football couldn't possibly sink any lower....
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/33224457
 
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*aLe said:
I feel sorry for Parma, really sorry.
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yeah, i gotta say the parmensi are have been quite unlucky with their club owners... first that horrible situation with Tanzi, and now this.
Also from the scraps of information i got (i haven't followed sport news much closely lately), it appears Ghirardi isn't really coming across like a smart and responsible businessman.

Ale said:
And it looks like also Reggina (another team that used to be in Serie A during the mid 2000s) won't exist anymore:
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oh man, that is such a shame! they had a very good team in serie a less than 10 years ago.
btw who's in charge in Reggio right now? is Foti still president and owner of the club? coz if a well connected, local businessman like foti can't attract any investors, their financial situation must be very bleak.
 
Zamparini struck again.
He fired Iachini.
Davide Balardini is Palermo's new coach...


Good luck Davide...i wonder how long you will be there...
 
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