Edmundo said:
I agree with you completely. I don't have a problem with Inter being awarded the titles as there just doesnt seem to be cast-iron evidence they did significant wrong-doing.......
......To me it has smacks of collective punishment/responsibilty. It makes a mockery of everything, is unprofessional and its almost as though there is an attitute of, "Well Juventus were caught doing bad things, but you know what, we also caught Milan doing bad things, maybe not as bad but still bad, and we kinda think Inter might have been doing it too, and didn't Franco Sensi give some guy a watch years ago? Well let's just say everyone was guilty and scrub off the 2004-5 season"
whoa!! wait a minute mate, i did not mean any of that!!! and if that's what u got from my post, then i must have explained myself very poorly. let me try again.
the reason why i think it would have been a better decision to nullify those 2 seasons has nothing to do with the suspicions surrounding inter. What i wrote about inter was merely an attempt to explain juve fans' perspective on this whole situation. but i'm not a juve fan and i would never call someone "guilty" before the verdict (and like i said, we won't ever get a verdict on inter because the statute of limitations already ran out).
and i most certainly ain't trying to somehow deminish juve's responsibilities or to make a mockery of calciopoli. i simply see this situation from a different point of view.
i'm not saying my point of view is "the right one", and, like i already said to Gerd, many people in italy share your opinions on this situation.....
... but from my point of view, the situation is completely different from how u pictured it. in my opinion assigning those scudetti to inter makes a mockery of calciopoli and is an embarassing attempt to reduce calciopoli to a simple fraud of one man (alone). to me that is a spectacular manipulation of the facts, which allows serie a (as a league) and the italian federation to wash their hands of this entire scandal (as if they had no part whatsoever in it).
to me THAT is a scandal. and as a small club fan, as fan of a club which didn't cheat, i can tell u i consider this denial much more insulting than the alternative (voiding those 2 scudetti).
calciopoli was not a simple fraud. like i said, moggi couldn't have done anything without some help. and the whole concept of corruptiuon and collusion inherently implies the involvment of multiple individuals. moggi colluded with the refs commissioners (bergamo and pairetto) and also with some italian federation directors (like innocenzo mazzini). this is not debeatable anymore, as it has been proven in court, and there's a verdict confirming it today.
and so we get to my point... i don't want those 2 seasons erased from serie a recordbook coz i want innocent clubs to pay.... i want those 2 seasons nullified because i want the federation to pay. it's the federation's duty to monitor our competitions, to supervise our competitions so that theese situations don't occurr.
and they didn't just ignore their responsibilities, they didn't just fail to monitor and supervise...... they freaking cooperated with moggi! they didn't just allow moggi to do whatever he wanted (which would have already been bad enough)... they helped him!!!!
i've listened (with my very own ears) to a phone conversation between moggi and mazzini (a italian federation drector), in which mazzini suggests moggi that the best retaliation to counteract Della Valle's opposition inside the serie a board would have been to assign "their refs" to fiorentina's upcoming matches (so they could screw up fiorentina's games and persuade Della Valle to lighten up and stop being such a pain in the ass).
this man (Innocenzo Mazzini) was a freaking federation director! he was working for the federcalcio when he made that phone call (and many others).
so why on earth should the federation get away with it? we have a verdict stating some federation directors were accomplices to the fraud.... the very same sentence which establishes juve's, milan's and fiorentina's responsibilities..... juve got punished, milan got punished fiorentina got punished...... why the fuck should the federation get away with it!!!!
why should the federation be allowed to hand a trophy, as if moggi's fraud were the only anomaly in an otherwise perfectly valid competition!!!!
should we really pretend that, apart from moggi's cheating, those 2 seasons were absolutely regular????
are we really so naive to believe that assigning those 2 scudettos to inter (or to any other club) would serve justice and restore some kind of balance?
u seem to believe that "saving those seasons" and assigning the scudetto anyway would be the most fair solution for those clubs which didn't cheat. well let me tell u, as a palermo fan i don't find this solution "fair" at all. of course i can't speak on behalf of all the fans of innocent clubs.... but still i am one of those fans and i believe not assigning those scudetti at all would have been much more appropriate and fair.
the federation shouldn't have been allowed to assign any title, because the entire final table was compromised by a fraud in which some of their employees were found to be accomplices!! they should not be allowed to act as if everything was regular apart from juventus position on the table, because that's not true! the entire table has been altered as a result of the cheating and those 2 seasons produced no champion at all,
because no club in serie a has a legittimate claim to those scudetti (not even the ones which didn't cheat.... but i'll explain that later).
u seem to suggest that my solution would make a mockery of calciopoli and "somehow" deminish juventus resposibilities. that's absolutely false. i don't want to absolve anyone.... infact quite the opposite... i want all the responsibles to pay (including the federation). the calciopoli scandal destroyed juventus reputation and dishonoured serie a, but didn't seem to effect the italian federation at all.... a federation which was allowed to bring 3 clubs to champions league..... and one of them even won the cup!
i understand economic interests carry a lot of weight in theese sort of decisions, but, had money not been a factor in uefa's decision making process, the italian federation would have probably been banned from uefa for a good chunck of years and their clubs woudln't have been allowed to take part in any uefa competition. and without uefa's pressing to elect a champion, those 2 scudetti would have been voided (that was infact the original intention of the italians).
a federation which can't organize and monitor the regularity of a championship shouldn't be allowed to crown a champion, nor to send any team to eufa competitions.
when it came to juventus ownership, u mentioned the concept of corporate responsibility (aka "strict liability") to establish the agnelli family responsibility in moggi's fraud (which is a reasonable argument)...... if u know what strict liability means, then u must realise that this concept also applies to the federation (which is guilty of the same sort of negligence).
and finally let's consider the football-cycling comparison. u see, so far i explained u the ethical reason why i think those scudetti shouldn't have been assigned. such reason is obviously subjective and personal, and one might well disagree with me (infact i'm not trying to persuade u my point of view is the right one here, i'm just explaining myself more accurately, coz it seems u misuderstood my previous posts).
but there's also another reason to throw those 2 seasons into the garbage.
and this is a logical reason, not one based on ethics or personal values and opinions. and that football-cycling comparison offers me a chance to show this reason to u.
such comparison can't hold up because football and cycling are very different sports. cycling is based on a single competitive event wich involves all the partecipants. so, if one of them cheats, then u can simply scrub him off the competition and the final classification will be absolutely regular.
a football league instead, is completely different, as it's based on multiple events which involve only 2 partecipants (the games). and the result of theese events
effects both teams position on the table (in terms of points).
therefore, whereas a cyclist cheating only effects his own position on the final classification, a football club cheating effects the entire league table as not only juventus' points, but also other clubs' points (and position) were altered.
practical example: i seem to remember one of the matches investigated was a juve-udinese match which juventus won thanks to an undeserved penalty (or something like that). udinese didn't cheat, and yet their position on the table has been obviously altered because of that event. and there's simply no denying that.
there were dozens of episodes like this one. the entire table has been altered. the race to avoid relegation was altered, the race for europa league was altered, the race for champions league was altered. and it's impossible to retroactively "fix" all theese match results, because no one can tell which team would have won (perhaps juve would have won all those matches anyway).
so now u must realise the football-cycling comparison is a terrible one..... and u must also realise why i think the entire final league table shoud have been nullified.
Edmundo said:
Juventus's listing is fairly complex, even now. Around 64% of the company is owned by EXOR, an Italian investment company which itself is 51% owned by the Agnelli family. 10 years ago, during the scandal, Exor was then known as IFIL/IFI but the structure was essentially the same.
yep. but exor and ifil are not operative companies, their both investment companies..... they're holdings, and as such, they're not involved with the operative management or the day to day management of the companies controlled by it.
exor (and ifil before exor) are nothing but vaults... they're only there to count the money that comes from their controlled companies.
exor controls a shitload of different companies (from fiat to insurance companies.... from real estate service firms to banks, to companies which sell agricultural equipments).
they're not supposed to know everything that happens inside theese companies, simply because they couldn't possibly know.
so pointing out that juventus belongs to the "exor family" is not good a reason to assume the agnelli family knew about moggi's malpractices.
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