PES2010 discussion thread

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The funny thing is they may have been working on ideas that they weren't gonna implement just yet for 2years. They weren't sure if they would work or couldn't get them to work right.

Working on a new physics system that they may implement for a future version could already be in the pipeline but we can only dream.

We can keep asking all these question, be pessimistic or optimistic, we only have a few months to find out and hope these guys are on the right path.

Also regarding Drekkard, your right about sports games in general, i think the amount of work required for sports games surpasses any other type of game eg

Good game mechanics - lots of different genres can get away with shoddy ones but no way can a sports game. The way individuals feel, move, react, turn etc is so complex that a FPS/rpg etc has it so easy. I think something like mario64's character controller wouldn't even be as complex.

AI - again, simple AI tricks can be used to get convincing AI in other genres but sports games are easily found out when the player can set AI routines/tatics and also your not dealing with a few simple bots but 20+ advanced AI bots!

Graphics - Sports games seem to be getting better graphically although some don't quite scratch up. Not many other genres where you need to have 20+ fully animated characters, with high quality textures and meshes, all nearly on the same screen.

Online - I think other genres have shown this should be possible to have good online ie FPS

Physics - again, the amount of characters, each with multiple collision points - 15+, data etc required is way beyond what you would get in other genres.

I really think football games have it tough with the next-gen with what is possible, and even implementing it is goonna be crazy. Imagine having fight night 4 type collision data on 20+ players, not possible on this gen of systems!
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
See, to me this sums up your whole attitude in this thread. You're not prepared to give PES a chance or have any kind of optimism towards it. It's quite clear you don't care for the series and don't want it to be good this year. Anyone who loves PES would never say that they don't mind watching it crash and burn. And calling everyone deluded fanboys is the hallmark of someone who has nothing to contribute to the discussion. Get down off your soap box and settle down in the Fifa forum.:COAT:



Exactly.
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That is why your one of my favourite posters.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

sindii said:
I really think football games have it tough with the next-gen with what is possible, and even implementing it is goonna be crazy. Imagine having fight night 4 type collision data on 20+ players, not possible on this gen of systems!
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Excellent post in general. Folks may argue that Fifa have done it already. It would be a very valid point, but I would argue it's at the expense of response times.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jimmy G-Force said:
Excellent post in general. Folks may argue that Fifa have done it already. It would be a very valid point, but I would argue it's at the expense of response times.
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I would agree with that entirely, Rutter has said he doesn't want to make response times "arcadey" but if that's supposed to imply that they're perfect in FIFA 09 then God help us FIFA fans... The last few weeks switching between a PES ML and a FIFA MM have really shown up how frustrating it is running into people three seconds after you've pressed the button in FIFA (I would say PES's are too fast, don't get me wrong, but rather that than "oh, you want me to kick the ball, okay, I'll... Hold on, did I remember to switch the oven off? I think I did, just before I got in the car... Did I put the alarm on the car? Oh God I don't think I did, I don't remember it beeping, shit I'll have to get someone to go and ... bollocks I've ran into him now").
 
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Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Chris Davies said:
I would agree with that entirely, Rutter has said he doesn't want to make response times "arcadey" but if that's supposed to imply that they're perfect in FIFA 09 then God help us FIFA fans... The last few weeks switching between a PES ML and a FIFA MM have really shown up how frustrating it is running into people three seconds after you've pressed the button in FIFA (I would say PES's are too fast, don't get me wrong, but rather that than "oh, you want me to kick the ball, okay, I'll... Hold on, did I remember to switch the oven off? I think I did, just before I got in the car... Did I put the alarm on the car? Oh God I don't think I did, I don't remember it beeping, shit I'll have to get someone to go and ... bollocks I've ran into him now").
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I can't agree with Rutter definitely about response time "arcadey".Response for me mean dynamic it's totally different than arcadey......I like dynamic football with good response time.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Fifa 09 response times were decent enough offline, but online I find it almost unbearable. Having to plan every pass or move 2 or 3 seconds in advance kills the impulsive side of football such as dribbling and snap shots.

Personally I would rather the response times were on the 'arcadey' side like in PES at the expense of ultra-realistic animation chains. The one thing I love about PES the most - even now when the series is a mess - is the feeling of quick, sharp control. I can twist and turn when I want, play a pass when I want, and hit a shot exactly when I want without a delay. This is more like real football. I don't have to wait 2 seconds to play a pass in real life.

Another EA game I love is Madden 09. The response times in this are pretty sharp. When I receive a pass and I want to sidestep to avoid a tackle it happens very quickly. If it had Fifa 09 resonse times the game would be unplayable.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Drekkard and Sindii, thanks for the great posts.
Those kind of posts are the one we want on this site, other than FIFA<->PES fights etc.

I think in previous years Konami was not able to make real next-gen animations because it was too time consuming for the small amount of people who worked on the past versions.
Now they have 200+ people working on it, they have the manpower to do it.
I am unfamiliar with mo-cap and making an animation using mocap, so I wonder how they cope with the different styles of moving. I guess they invited many foortballers with many different styles to do the mocaps so that you don't get all the same animations.
Is that correct?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

sindii said:
Regarding the physics engine and collision, the underlying system in place would still take care of this even with new animations added. The ball and world doesn't really react to the animation but more to the position/rotation of the collision mesh/boxes which follow the position/rotation of the bones in the animation.

...

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ps Im not a know-it-all and could be totally wrong, the thing with game dev is that everyone has their own ways, ideas and solutions.
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Nice post sindii. At the end it depends on how complex his "animation engine" is and how the game logic interacts with it. The reason why I still thinks it's a matter of months is because a lot of people often forgets bout validation processes.

Youc can implement the raw data of 100 mocaps in weeks, sure. But you have to validate everything and this can mean different validation processes inside the company, affecting different builds that have to be tested and refined.

In an action game, having someone do an animation when dies or collides with someone is so easy to test and refine. Not in a sports game, where collisionas are so complex and the interaction with the ball and other players is greater than in other games.

Anyway, I think the more time they spend on animations, the better, but not at the cost of NO refining them. I would prefer only 50 new animations well integrated than 100 rushed in the game.

About the Chris post, I think reaction times in Fifa are too slow... sometimes! I find them great for technically weak players and in certain situations, but sometimes I would like them to be like pes. I honestly think the only think they can dos about is very complex, and it's finding a way to simulate skill on players. One way that sohuld be more complex than "hey, his dribbling stats are 90, he will dribble faster" and more complex than "I've thrown an animation, when it ends I have to process the next one".

My guess is something similar to one post I can't find now. They have to make controlling the ball harder for players and have player and gamer skill higher in order to do quick moves. Gamer skill and player attributes have to be required to dribble faster.

And in the animation side, only ver complex collision detections of boot and ball and procedural animation can do this, but at the expense of some CPU requirements and manpower investment that seem out of reach right now.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

drekkard said:
I've worked several times adding mocap data to rigged models, and having these models prepared to certain variables of movement. Nothing as complicated as it is in a football game like PES or FIFA, of course, where it has to interact with the physics engine and the collision detection and you have to take into account a lot more variables or even integrate the data to procedural animation processes or inverted kinetics.

And I can tell you adding the ammount of animations they seem to be adding (we're talking about 100 animations to say something) is very time consuming because you have to test and refine them and that means a lot of time generally to make sure thngs work as expected.

It's not a simple copy / paste. So I think adding all the animations, testing them and refining will take them a LOT of the time they have left and they will need to streamline the process.

So it's not a matter of days, nuts! It's a matter of months, I think they will spend 2 months on implementing animations and it's not that much time to do it. But it all depends on HOW are they implementing animations and at which level they let the animation take some variations or procedurally blend to another animation.
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If we believe the Konami machine they have over 200 staff now, so I would hope knowing they were mo-capping for 2010, a good proportion of those will be graphic orientated.
Konami and PES brand image will take a hit advertising mo-capping for 2010 then not implementing it...
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
Next-gen football games have been a disappointment in my opinion. I've had my Xbox360 for three years and I still haven't played a PES or Fifa that I have found really addictive or immersive.

Regards weather; not heard anything mate. You're right though, changeable weather shouldn't be that hard on modern consoles if the N64 can do it, but I have a feeling it won't be in PES yet.
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That's how I feel with my PS3, though I have played (the other one) to death, I had a quick tot to at least 1100 hours, I'm a sad sad man...:OH:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Who knows with the Japs ? I think it would benefit them having a more international staff.It'd give them a different perspective
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

sindii said:
Physics - again, the amount of characters, each with multiple collision points - 15+, data etc required is way beyond what you would get in other genres.

I really think football games have it tough with the next-gen with what is possible, and even implementing it is goonna be crazy. Imagine having fight night 4 type collision data on 20+ players, not possible on this gen of systems!
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They do a mean US Football game as do others, that's all out war on screen... ;)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

For someone who has just joined this site(questionable) you are'nt shy throwing around the little snide remarks.A bit of respect will go a long way pal.It is a forum for members which we all are and we get along reasonable well,but you need to cool out.Never positve from you lately,just negative BS and insults if nobody agrees with you.Have you been here before and got banned? So an alias will do to pour your bile into these threads? BEHAVE LAD!I don't have to name you,you know who you are.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

pepper63 said:
For someone who has just joined this site(questionable) you are'nt shy throwing around the little snide remarks.A bit of respect will go a long way pal.It is a forum for members which we all are and we get along reasonable well,but you need to cool out.Never positve from you lately,just negative BS and insults if nobody agrees with you.Have you been here before and got banned? So an alias will do to pour your bile into these threads? BEHAVE LAD!I don't have to name you,you know who you are.
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I,m so sorry P:P ,I'll do my best to show EVO webbers more love:SAL:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
Like interchangeable kits. Gloriously in PES5, never to be seen again.:BRICK:
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Good point. Interchangeable kits was nice.

So was the ability, in cup mode, to have a mate control an opponent as opposed to being forced to play the AI simply because they are an AI team. A player select screen before every match to assign controllers.. that disappeared as well.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Yup. I can't wait to set a defence like Uruguay's when i'm 2-0 up with 10 mins to play :)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Maybe im mistaken, but there no game yet with real time daylight/shadows on field, right?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

goalgerd said:
im hoping with this new slider system we can finally get round to playing total football like the dutch in 1974,it would be great online to have an offside system like that

YouTube - World Cup 1974 - Holland vs Uruguay
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Thank you: I always like to see this football again. I was 21 at that time and I still remember the position changes and pressing with the whole team like that. It is a delight to watch again :)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Ahhh Interchangeable kits...... 4 long years ago they gave us that "souvenir" as someone else posted and they decided to remove it. The same way they removed teams so they could place whatever team qualified for that upcoming world cup. Does anybody remember the gameplay speed bar in WE4? (or was it WE3: FV? I can't remember) That might be asking for too much, and of course, with online gaming you can't have something like that anymore.

There are definitely many variables that add to my perception of this "lack of evolution" of the series. Chris mentioned how we are actually growing older and the game doesn't have the same impact in our lives. It's very true. We are also growing older of the game as well. Because we haven't noticed this evolution. And what's even worse is that we've noticed the change in other Konami games, other sports games, and the actual competition (FIFA). The same aging engine has been around for too long. Unfortunately, a next-gen based engine will always be a risky move. Unfortunately, Konami understands that they still need to support the PS2 market. Unfortunately, Konami realizes that multiple localized releases is profitable. I don't really know for sure but I can't explain otherwise why in the past we've had WE, PES, WE:FV/WE:FE/WE:LE, WE-Jleague, etc all in one year.

I'm aware that I sound like I'm exaggerating when I talk about this lack of evolution but I get disappointed every time I see the same lame free kick engine or pk engine or the same lame movement of the keepers when they have the ball. I remember it took them years to add overarm throws and underarm rolls to the Ps2 version of the game. In fact, I was very glad when they added to option to have the keeper drop the ball to his feet. I'm actually glad they are finally doing something about the PK. Yes, I know, it's a feature that rarely happens in a game but why make it dull when it can be more exciting and it has been relatively the same. (a different keeper camera and various PK kick animations are not exactly an evolution.)
I understand that animations, ball physics, and the collisions systems are very important if not, the most important part of the game but there are certain aspects of the game that need a lot of work, and most likely, should be done by a separate crew. I'm talking about the in-game environment. It is pitiful and has always been. I remember patching my WE with the current Solidus chants patch and one could notice the difference. The players don't emit any sort of sound whatsoever, only the fans, ref, and the ball. Players yelling, or asking for the ball. They don't need to be loud but loud enough to notice. These little things add value to the game. Wouldn't it be awesome that out of a sudden you hear a loud firecracker and the fans for no apparent reason going nuts and LOUD? Even better, you depend on the score of another game in ML and the crowd is loud b/c of the score of a different game.

I'm sorry for the little rant but something so.. trivial. But something like interchangeable kits... made me remember of the fun days. IMO PES2009 is not a bad game but it's not game that matched our expectations. PES2010 will probably be better but doesn't sound like a radical change in the right direction. Seabass has always bitched about having a small team and it seems he has a decent sized one this year but we don't know how long ago he's had it and for how long he'll have it.
 
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