PES2010 discussion thread

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
No assumptions are needed when you have the power of common sense.

Try it sometime, you might look more intelligent.
Click to expand...

Unlike you I'm not trying to look intelligent.
Presumably you asked the poster which games he had worked on to give some validity to his comments.
When I asked the same of you you reply with garbage about common sense.
So your comments on the matter are as worthless as you believe his to be.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
Common sense - so god damn rare it's a super power.

No but seriously, anyone with a remotely technical mind can appreciate that animation in sports games is not straight forward. Animation has to be dynamic, it's not just record it and drop it in to the game, every animation has to react differently based on how the player is positioned and where the ball is in relation to the player at the very moment the animation is initiated.

This is the common sense view, therefore the onus is on someone who is challenging that view to provide some technical evidence to be at least moderately convincing. I'm aware that he might just be "dumbing down" his comments to suit the breed of intellect that peruses these boards but I'd like to know exactly why he thinks it's so trivial to add in animations which could potentially affect the core gameplay dramatically - and not only that, if it's such a walk in the park and takes a matter of days/weeks why has it taken them so many years to even contemplate it?
Click to expand...

Please lay-off the superiority complex. You'll find the 'intellect that peruses these boards' is a cut above most PES sites so no need for the patronising comments.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

So your comments on the matter are as worthless as you believe his to be.
Click to expand...

Not really, because my comments fit in with the views of many other developers and people in the industry, fit in with what Drekkard was saying above, fit in with the stack of evidence we see in the games industry which suggests animation is a complex process, exemplified by the increasing number of games which delegate animation work to other companies or middleware frameworks like Euphoria. So really my comments fit in with common sense, therefore there is no onus on me to justify these safe and well documented assumptions, nor is there any need for me to expose my own background or experience.

So please, back away from this argument because you are way out of your depth. Let's wait for this guy to return and elaborate on his ridiculous view that it takes days to implement ten different types of running animations.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
Not really, because my comments fit in with the views of many other developers and people in the industry, fit in with what Drekkard was saying above, fit in with the stack of evidence we see in the games industry which suggests animation is a complex process, exemplified by the increasing number of games which delegate animation work to other companies or middleware frameworks like Euphoria. So really my comments fit in with common sense, therefore there is no onus on me to justify these safe and well documented assumptions, nor is there any need for me to expose my own background or experience.

So please, back away from this argument because you are way out of your depth. Let's wait for this guy to return and elaborate on his ridiculous view that it takes days to implement ten different types of running animations.
Click to expand...

The thing is Drekkard has backed up why he doesn't believe that it would take days/weeks to implement by relating specific experiences, rather than just saying it's a matter of common sense, which makes him more believable.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
Not really, because my comments fit in with the views of many other developers and people in the industry, fit in with what Drekkard was saying above, fit in with the stack of evidence we see in the games industry which suggests animation is a complex process, exemplified by the increasing number of games which delegate animation work to other companies or middleware frameworks like Euphoria. So really my comments fit in with common sense
Click to expand...

See that's your problem right there. You only believe what agrees with your opinion. Surprisingly narrow minded for someone with so much common sense.

Are you here to discuss news and rumours on PES 2010 or just to insult us of lower intellect.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

drekkard said:
I've worked several times adding mocap data to rigged models, and having these models prepared to certain variables of movement. Nothing as complicated as it is in a football game like PES or FIFA, of course, where it has to interact with the physics engine and the collision detection and you have to take into account a lot more variables or even integrate the data to procedural animation processes or inverted kinetics.

And I can tell you adding the ammount of animations they seem to be adding (we're talking about 100 animations to say something) is very time consuming because you have to test and refine them and that means a lot of time generally to make sure thngs work as expected.

It's not a simple copy / paste. So I think adding all the animations, testing them and refining will take them a LOT of the time they have left and they will need to streamline the process.

So it's not a matter of days, nuts! It's a matter of months, I think they will spend 2 months on implementing animations and it's not that much time to do it. But it all depends on HOW are they implementing animations and at which level they let the animation take some variations or procedurally blend to another animation.
Click to expand...

Another good post D, thanks.

I have no idea about complex programming etc but what you say makes sense. Adding the animations are not the difficult bit, its getting them properly tested to amke it work with the existing code.

I for one would be happy to fix the running animation, the turning animation and goalkeeping animation. add this to all the other changes and we have a great game in the making. It does not require a complete overhaul in respect of animations to make it good for this year, so in my book, 4 odd months adding this in is very acheiveable.

Fingers crosed eh chaps;)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Unless anyone has worked in the games industry then we can only speculate on how long animations take to implement. I would imagine the process is not simple and fairly time consuming but none of us know how long Konami have been working on mo-cap and animations. Messi did his bit at the end of May but the other 'actors' may have been mo-capped well before. The build that the games media played 3 or 4 weeks back was probably prepared back in April or May, so Konami could well have a solid 4 or 5 months to integrate the animations and tweak everything.

That sounds reasonable to me.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
No assumptions are needed when you have the power of common sense.

Try it sometime, you might look more intelligent.
Click to expand...

C'mon mate, there is no need for this. You clearly have alot to add but please try to accept the important and valid opinions of others, even if it's not in agreement with your own.

Banters one thing but questioning the intelligence of people on a forum is one hell of an assumption.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
Unless anyone has worked in the games industry then we can only speculate on how long animations take to implement. I would imagine the process is not simple and fairly time consuming but none of us know how long Konami have been working on mo-cap and animations. Messi did his bit at the end of May but the other 'actors' may have been mo-capped well before. The build that the games media played 3 or 4 weeks back was probably prepared back in April or May, so Konami could well have a solid 4 or 5 months to integrate the animations and tweak everything.

That sounds reasonable to me.
Click to expand...


This is what I was trying to get across before James but you have explained it in a better way (hey you must have a fair old amount of intelligence;))

I think they have had at least 4 months work in getting the mocap integrated so that is why I have confidence in it looking great, however I know nowt about these sort of things so I could be way off, but Konami have been quite firm in stating that it was yet to be implemented and all the major sites who play tested said the same thing.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I think some of you are getting ahead of yourselves with the latest PES, I think people are expecting to much from Konami in such a short time. I think it will be a better game than 09 but I wouldn't say it'll be a million miles away from it like some are saying, that bit was pretty conclusive for me to see in those gameplay snippets.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I think some of you are getting ahead of yourselves with the latest PES, I think people are expecting to much from Konami in such a short time. I think it will be a better game than 09 but I wouldn't say it'll be a million miles away from it like some are saying, that bit was pretty conclusive for me to see in those gameplay snippets.
Click to expand...

That's crazy talk. It's going to be a revolution, you wait and see.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
Unless anyone has worked in the games industry then we can only speculate on how long animations take to implement. I would imagine the process is not simple and fairly time consuming but none of us know how long Konami have been working on mo-cap and animations. Messi did his bit at the end of May but the other 'actors' may have been mo-capped well before. The build that the games media played 3 or 4 weeks back was probably prepared back in April or May, so Konami could well have a solid 4 or 5 months to integrate the animations and tweak everything.

That sounds reasonable to me.
Click to expand...

I agree. Lets just wait and see for christ sakes.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

so Konami could well have a solid 4 or 5 months to integrate the animations and tweak everything.
Click to expand...

Which is completely contradicted by the fact the latest playtest build and gameplay snippets showed no sign of motion capture animations whatsoever. Maybe they are developing it in secret? Perhaps it's in that magical PES build that's supposedly been in development since the release of PES2008. I wonder if we'll ever get to see it. Or maybe only special people get to see it, but they only see it in their hallucinations from smoking the same gear as Seabass.

The thing is Drekkard has backed up why he doesn't believe that it would take days/weeks to implement by relating specific experiences, rather than just saying it's a matter of common sense, which makes him more believable.
Click to expand...

I supported my argument sufficiently well thank you, most of the things Drekkard mentioned I covered to some degree as well as mentioning a key point regarding middleware engines.

So, although you might not take my word for it, you at least seem to believe Drekkard and therefore we are clear about the fact adding new animations is not a trivial matter. Still, maybe he's right, maybe it does take days - maybe if the Games Convention build still shows no signs of improved animations people will say "wait until the demo, it only takes a few days to add new animations".

I wanted PES to be good this year, but now I don't even care. There are so many deluded fanboys - still - that I won't even mind watching it crash and burn for the third year running.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I honestly think the game is going to be somewhere between PES5 and PES2009 gameplay wise with the new animations implemented - they may not be perfect and you may get similar bugs seen in the past.

I am hoping for the sliders and cards to improve the experience more than the other things - yes I love my graphics but truth be told untucked shirts, boots and GK gloves are more important to me than great animation - if the game plays great I dont need it flawlessly animated (though I wont slight anyone for their preference).

- To real PES fans it wont matter what FIFA does if PES is a good game and enjoyable.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

with regards to the mo-cap and implementing this into the game after the build that WENB tested, supposedly konami have a team of 200 working on this so would support their theory of a 50% build, surely ;-)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
I wanted PES to be good this year, but now I don't even care. There are so many deluded fanboys - still - that I won't even mind watching it crash and burn for the third year running.
Click to expand...

See, to me this sums up your whole attitude in this thread. You're not prepared to give PES a chance or have any kind of optimism towards it. It's quite clear you don't care for the series and don't want it to be good this year. Anyone who loves PES would never say that they don't mind watching it crash and burn. And calling everyone deluded fanboys is the hallmark of someone who has nothing to contribute to the discussion. Get down off your soap box and settle down in the Fifa forum.:COAT:

master_smurf said:
- To real PES fans it wont matter what FIFA does if PES is a good game and enjoyable.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

vitalic said:
maybe if the Games Convention build still shows no signs of improved animations people will say "wait until the demo, it only takes a few days to add new animations".
Click to expand...

Your right, some may say that, but for me, I will know then what it is likely to be given what we see (brilliant poetry:P)

I will still give it a good go on the demo before totally making my mind up, but the build at Gamescom will certainly show alot of fans that it has changed or not.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

There is no point in posting a positive arguement about Vitalic's posts. Any thing that does just gets erased!!

His eyes are FIFA tinted so no more point rising to it. His colours have been shown.

He was doing so well initially.

I feel that looking at all the stuff about PES 2010 and the positive steps it has taken to me the wait is killing me. Roll on gamescon.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

drekkard said:
I've worked several times adding mocap data to rigged models, and having these models prepared to certain variables of movement. Nothing as complicated as it is in a football game like PES or FIFA, of course, where it has to interact with the physics engine and the collision detection and you have to take into account a lot more variables or even integrate the data to procedural animation processes or inverted kinetics.


And I can tell you adding the ammount of animations they seem to be adding (we're talking about 100 animations to say something) is very time consuming because you have to test and refine them and that means a lot of time generally to make sure thngs work as expected.

It's not a simple copy / paste. So I think adding all the animations, testing them and refining will take them a LOT of the time they have left and they will need to streamline the process.

So it's not a matter of days, nuts! It's a matter of months, I think they will spend 2 months on implementing animations and it's not that much time to do it. But it all depends on HOW are they implementing animations and at which level they let the animation take some variations or procedurally blend to another animation.
Click to expand...

Regarding the physics engine and collision, the underlying system in place would still take care of this even with new animations added. The ball and world doesn't really react to the animation but more to the position/rotation of the collision mesh/boxes which follow the position/rotation of the bones in the animation.

Obviously if they had 100's to add then it depends what they needed to do to add them in but i don't think they are going to change all of them, possibly concentrate on the ones that have most influence and that are seen most ie movement.

Changing a set of animations could still take days/weeks imho but it this actually depends on many things ie no. of people doing the work, how many hours a day etc.

With inverted kinetics, heads following the ball, looking at other players etc, this should already be a part of the engine and would affect the animations playing on top without the animation having any influence on it.
So even with new animations, this wouldn't be affected other than some tweaking needed.

I also think that PES hasn't started using many advanced techniques regarding interactions and collisions and probably still has most from what worked on ps2.

I've worked on many 3d games/systems and im sure i know some of what is required. I did some work on a 3d action game which had interactions with the environments, other characters and IK/animations.

Also created some crowd tests where 100 of characters moved around avoiding/bumping into each other etc and reacting based on 100's of different factors ie walk/run speed, collision points, weight, if one entity was already involved in a collision ie falling back how it would react with another enity running into it. This all involved physics, IK and some procedural animations.

Obviously you understand what your talking about Drekkard, and I understand the complexity of things too. However, games companies plan things out, if Konami planned on alot of new animations for this release, they know what is required and will have planned ahead with what is needed to implement it.

ps Im not a know-it-all and could be totally wrong, the thing with game dev is that everyone has their own ways, ideas and solutions.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Regarding the whole animations - could it be possible that there could be an animation department working on implementing animations while the core engine is still being tweaked? Ie. creating a different build version to the ones we are seeing now?

Then later, when the games core engine is completed, the animation studio within pes productions can add the animation into the current build without having to start from scratch again?

It would solve the time scale problem, as they could have started the animation progress months ago, and not have to start over after relying on another team to 'finish their part of the game' so to speak...

Does this make any sense?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

fatlip180 said:
Regarding the whole animations - could it be possible that there could be an animation department working on implementing animations while the core engine is still being tweaked? Ie. creating a different build version to the ones we are seeing now?

Then later, when the games core engine is completed, the animation studio within pes productions can add the animation into the current build without having to start from scratch again?

It would solve the time scale problem, as they could have started the animation progress months ago, and not have to start over after relying on another team to 'finish their part of the game' so to speak...

Does this make any sense?
Click to expand...

Yes it is, different departments work on seperate parts of a game witohut seeing what others maybe doing.
Even demos already shown may have been of a build that wasn't updated with alot of new anims but another build at konami could have already had alot of new anims in place.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I actually thought I could see some new animations implemented into that fuzzy gameplay video anyway. The passing animation looked slightly different, there was atouch on the ball rather than those stupid 90 dgree turns and the running looked slower.

I played 09 again yesterday and its just not right, its clunky, fast and a dribble fest, online is just plain broke and the presentation is in the N64 mould............overall a big let down.

Now when I look at the graphics upgrade, charachter models, 3D crowds, a promise of going back to Sony servers ala PES6 (which was brilliant online)implementation of the CL in ML, new card system, better atmosphere (nets etc) and then much improved animation, I cannot see it being anything but a great game.

Sure it will have its problems just like every other game, however anyone thinking that this will be a lighting upgrade over PES09 is wrong in my book. Konami are definately trying to deliver a superior experience than anything previously given to fans on the PS3 & 360, they have been out earlier than ever shouting about the game, much more interest in the fans opinion (blogs etc) and the dev team has over 200+ working on it, in comparison to a very small team from previous years.

It hurts us with what they have produced in the last 3 (although PES6 was quite good) and there is alot of synicism out there. I am very critical of games (footy games in particular) and I have niggling doubts over certain things but I just cannot imagine them releasing a PES09 graphical upgrade.

It has to change, it is changing and it may this year have you hooked seeing new things happening during every game that the other game lacks.

Be positive
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I thought it might - as you said above, different departments have different goals at the start, different targets to meet etc - rather than a linear knee-jerk reaction to the process


For the first time since pes6 im really looking forward to pes2010 - after finding fifa the better game..

I dont believe all the hype, the 'this game was started years ago etc' and of course all the drivel from wenb - but from my own readings im really looking forward to it.

Ive been missing a decent pes and looks like we are going to get it soon
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

fatlip180 said:
I thought it might - as you said above, different departments have different goals at the start, different targets to meet etc - rather than a linear knee-jerk reaction to the process


For the first time since pes6 im really looking forward to pes2010 - after finding fifa the better game..

I dont believe all the hype, the 'this game was started years ago etc' and of course all the drivel from wenb - but from my own readings im really looking forward to it.

Ive been missing a decent pes and looks like we are going to get it soon
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think most of the evidence so far would suggest this game hasn't been in production for 2 years as was the rumour, but hopefully with the much bigger development team Konami can do so much more in a year.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
Yeah, I think most of the evidence so far would suggest this game hasn't been in production for 2 years as was the rumour, but hopefully with the much bigger development team Konami can do so much more in a year.
Click to expand...


Is changing weather conditions in? PES5 and N64 versions had this?

Always was nice to see it rain then stop on PES5 and snowy conditions in the N64 version rather than the day,dusk,downpour we currently have?

it would be a welcome addition if you started a match ou in the sun but then it started raining affecting pitch condition and style of play. The slide system would surely come into it's own then and how hard could it be to implement?

It's suppose to be next-gen!
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Urban said:
Is changing weather conditions in? PES5 and N64 versions had this?

Always was nice to see it rain then stop on PES5 and snowy conditions in the N64 version rather than the day,dusk,downpour we currently have?

it would be a welcome addition if you started a match ou in the sun but then it started raining affecting pitch condition and style of play. The slide system would surely come into it's own then and how hard could it be to implement?

It's suppose to be next-gen!
Click to expand...

Its a must in next gen IMO with all that processing power but they have been fiddling around so much with a the broken gameplay that they have just not got it in.

There was talk of dynamic weather in this years version, but I'll beleive it when I see it.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Urban said:
Is changing weather conditions in? PES5 and N64 versions had this?

Always was nice to see it rain then stop on PES5 and snowy conditions in the N64 version rather than the day,dusk,downpour we currently have?

it would be a welcome addition if you started a match ou in the sun but then it started raining affecting pitch condition and style of play. The slide system would surely come into it's own then and how hard could it be to implement?

It's suppose to be next-gen!
Click to expand...

Next-gen football games have been a disappointment in my opinion. I've had my Xbox360 for three years and I still haven't played a PES or Fifa that I have found really addictive or immersive.

Regards weather; not heard anything mate. You're right though, changeable weather shouldn't be that hard on modern consoles if the N64 can do it, but I have a feeling it won't be in PES yet.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I suppose. It's just headbanging though. They always seem to have something in that was great then gets removed from the following title!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom