PES2010 discussion thread

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

mjsmith2k said:
If I were to change the passing system in PES at all I'd have it replicate the semi-passing in FIFA; in terms of an accurate portrayal of the direction in which you are aiming and the general success rate of passes going to the man you aimed at or astray on quick passes etc. This would be a simulation of how passing feels in real life, after all it's only the odd pass that does go astray at the higher levels. Then, I would have 360 manual passing on the stick to complement this system, so for that final ball the direction of the pass will be truly manual and exactly where you meant to place it if you choose to use it.

If PES had a fully manual system it would hamper the way the game is meant to be played IMO. If you are concentrating too much on general passing it distracts your attention away from the field somewhat and doesn't allow you to work your carefully crafted tactics and formations on the field. PES has always been about that 'team' element for me, working formations and finding gaps with clever build-up play, that was why I sometimes got a little bored of fully manual on FIFA as I was all the time concentrating on getting each and every pass perfect rather than enjoying breaking down the other team.
Click to expand...

Another great post mj, couldn't agree more.

PES is, and always has been a game of tactics, formations and player selection. It's more of a managerial experience. You pick the right players in an effective formation and let the individuality of the players blend together. In Fifa I never feel the need to go too deep with the tactics as it doesn't make a difference in my experience.

And fully manual controls just wouldn't work. It would detract from the fundamentals of PES. I want my player's ability to dictate the success of my team, not my dexterity with the controller. The assisted nature of the game is what makes it, not breaks it. I think some of the Fifa converts forget that PES has always been about this and it's no different from the game they used to play and love in this respect.

Seraphs21 said:
I never really understood why everyone loves manual pass...

First of all if it is truly manual, might as well get rid of stats for passing, as your fully in control, in that sense every player on the game will be some crapper who can't make one pass, or some sort of play making genius, goal keepers included, you wouldn't be able to differentiate between the good passers in real football and the not so good ones!

Then there's the complaint that manual takes into account of the players stats... well then if thats the case its not even manual is it, as your restricted, like you got a crap passer, you aim perfectly and power it perfectly, but cause his stats are lower theres a margain of error in the code to make the ball go not as far and not in the correct direction, how bad depending on stat... which then makes you think you did it wrong anyway, not the players stats are crap.

I just think it's overhyped for a game, stats there for a reason, to recreate that said players ability... you expect to see results that you would expect to see that player in real life.
Click to expand...

Exactly how I feel. Fully manual control and the influence of player stats are a contradiction, in my opinion. You either have one or the other.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

gragra said:
What I meant about how to solve the object(s) placement after a collision:

A Simulation uses physics parameters (i.e. force, speed etc) to influence the movement an object that can otherwise essentially move freely through XYZ space, with various other parameters to stop it (i.e. drag, gravity etc).

The Heirachy for a Car could be:

Car (Global XYZ space)
- Door (INITIALLY controlled by Car's local XYZ space, but can detach to Global XYZ space)
- Bumper (same as above)
- Headlight (same as above)
etc.

Those objects under Car's heirachy can fall/fly off and leave the master controller (Car) - to be on their own in global XYZ space, controlled by physics... often a one time transaction/movement and they are gone (left back on the track for example)

The Football game has a PRE-DETERMINED Animation Cycle that needs to be interrupted and solved. As the underlying bones have limits, they cannot move freely out of the way in every case. Thus more prone to error, and they may have to solve it from the end node back to the Master, producing compound transactions/movements.

Lets say a hand is near another player

------ Hand (ALWAYS controlled by bone below's local XYZ space)
----- Forearm (same again)
---- Upper Arm (same again)
--- Shoulder (same again)
-- Spine (same again)
- Pelvis (same again)
Player (Global XYZ space)

There is a flow on effect the hand has as it moves away from the other player.

Lets say a foot needs to be moved from a Tackle (XYZ space as above)

----- Toe
---- Foot
--- Calf
-- Quad
- Pelvis
Player

Same again - other parts of the leg may have to move back.

So the complexity is in how accurately they can solve it in multiple hierarchies, remembering that each bone has to go back to another position after the event, ready to go again for the next Animation Cycle. Rinse and Repeat, Rinse and Repeat.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean, but it already solved/done in games like GTA4 for example.....that game indeed has good skeletal system and animation that could be perfect for games like PES. NOt as detailed as what you described, but seriously we are not controlling each arms, and legs so actually it is not really affecting the gameplay much, hence less calculation needed than in more complex simulation games.

I believe today technology is sufficient enough to do that thus as I said before the question is whether the developer care to implement it or not.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Seraphs21 said:
I never really understood why everyone loves manual pass...

First of all if it is truly manual, might as well get rid of stats for passing, as your fully in control, in that sense every player on the game will be some crapper who can't make one pass, or some sort of play making genius, goal keepers included, you wouldn't be able to differentiate between the good passers in real football and the not so good ones!

Then there's the complaint that manual takes into account of the players stats... well then if thats the case its not even manual is it, as your restricted, like you got a crap passer, you aim perfectly and power it perfectly, but cause his stats are lower theres a margain of error in the code to make the ball go not as far and not in the correct direction, how bad depending on stat... which then makes you think you did it wrong anyway, not the players stats are crap.

I just think it's overhyped for a game, stats there for a reason, to recreate that said players ability... you expect to see results that you would expect to see that player in real life.
Click to expand...

I agree with you totally. Thats been my argument ever since this whole 'Manaul' debate started. It's nice to have a good option to use when required, but like I said before, you very rarely use it or need to use it. PES's concept is far deeper than Fifa's imo, therefore it never will be of mass importance.

As Konami strive to take the individuality factor to new levels, EA seem content on focusing more on the visuals, rather than the fundementals. Which takes me back to my earlier post about which target market both companies seem to be aiming for.

Edit - Jamez, you beat me to it.

And Napo-Rz, I really wouldnt even bother going into that sort of technical argument with Gragra. The guy is light years ahead of all of us in this department. IMHO.
 
Last edited:
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dr Force said:
The more video's I see the more I can tell that PES has definately returned to it's roots and subsequent form. I have been playing alot of FIFA and i think it is a good game but the problem is space in FIFA which makes it a repetitive experience in comparison to PES.

PES allows you to hold and think, pass and move and not have to consistantly go down the wings. It's so difficult to get a shot off from 25/30 yards in FIFA so you are always forced wide where headers are often a very limp affair.

It's the great 1-2's in midfield that seperate these two games at the sacrafice of some animation/collision and PES is far superior in this respect.I also feel i can beat a man in PES with speed of thought whereas I just cannot find the time or space in FIFA despite it's 360 dribbling.

PES's heading and ball physics are also superb with more variables to deflections, crossing and general passing which adds more freedom to the general play IMO and results in those panic stricken scrambles for a sustained period of pressure.

FIFA is a great attempt but it's still not a patch on PES5 and with 2010 looking more and more like a highly polished 5 then I think this may well score higher than FIFA again.
Click to expand...

So it's 'same old, same old' with Fifa again this year? I get that impression from yours and other people's reactions to the game that not much has really changed.

I was initially impressed with the demo, particularly the animations and 360 degree dribbling, but the core gameplay was too similar with all the same old problems you listed above. It's just too monotonous for me, and concerns over longevity were evident. I'm glad I cancelled the pre-order and didn't waste the full RRP on Fifa.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
So it's 'same old, same old' with Fifa again this year? I get that impression from yours and other people's reactions to the game that not much has really changed.

I was initially impressed with the demo, particularly the animations and 360 degree dribbling, but the core gameplay was too similar with all the same old problems you listed above. It's just too monotonous for me, and concerns over longevity were evident. I'm glad I cancelled the pre-order and didn't waste the full RRP on Fifa.
Click to expand...

Yeah afraid so J. I do like it but give it 30 or so games and that's about as good as it gets, which is no different to every other FIFA before it.

Headers are simply appaling and it still suffers with that stop start in collisions whic can be infuriating when you have tackled someone only for you player to momentarily freeze allowing the opposition to score.

But hey ho PES is back for the purist and has always given me longevity (apart from 08 and 09) so this will defo be my game of choice for the coming year:COOL:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dr Force said:
The more video's I see the more I can tell that PES has definately returned to it's roots and subsequent form. I have been playing alot of FIFA and i think it is a good game but the problem is space in FIFA which makes it a repetitive experience in comparison to PES.

PES allows you to hold and think, pass and move and not have to consistantly go down the wings. It's so difficult to get a shot off from 25/30 yards in FIFA so you are always forced wide where headers are often a very limp affair.

It's the great 1-2's in midfield that seperate these two games at the sacrafice of some animation/collision and PES is far superior in this respect.I also feel i can beat a man in PES with speed of thought whereas I just cannot find the time or space in FIFA despite it's 360 dribbling.

PES's heading and ball physics are also superb with more variables to deflections, crossing and general passing which adds more freedom to the general play IMO and results in those panic stricken scrambles for a sustained period of pressure.

FIFA is a great attempt but it's still not a patch on PES5 and with 2010 looking more and more like a highly polished 5 then I think this may well score higher than FIFA again.
Click to expand...

Oddly I find I get far more chances to get a long range shot in FIFA than I do in PES/WE.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Realism is most important to me, but I don't think the two games have anything between them really. I'd say PES is still top in some key areas, e.g. weight of the ball, the after goal feeling and it actually feels your connecting your boot with a ball.
FIFA doesn't do a good job of differentiating between different players attributes or styles for example, they never have. When I play with a team in PES I feel like it's a team comprised of unique individuals, with strong areas, weak areas, and specialised areas... whereas in FIFA I'm merely playing as Barcelona or Aston Villa (no offence to Villa fans but you know what I mean), and the differences between them are negligible. The only attribute that has genuine significance in FIFA is stamina.
The act of defending also is more realistically portrayed in PES, so long as you can forgive (or circumvent) the sometimes poor positioning. You can also work the ball in the air with PES, whereas with FIFA it's a lottery that either works, or doesn't.
Finally longevity, become a legend and the new master league will offer a much deeper and lasting experience.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dr Force said:
Yeah afraid so J. I do like it but give it 30 or so games and that's about as good as it gets, which is no different to every other FIFA before it.

Headers are simply appaling and it still suffers with that stop start in collisions whic can be infuriating when you have tackled someone only for you player to momentarily freeze allowing the opposition to score.

But hey ho PES is back for the purist and has always given me longevity (apart from 08 and 09) so this will defo be my game of choice for the coming year:COOL:
Click to expand...

all about opinions chaps...i think fifa is great....can't wait for pro evo, should be a great game
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

First link is blocked in work :( Are you able to paste any info into a spoiler here for me?

Will check the other link tho, cheers :TU:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

nice one!!! thanks jamezinho, the pesfan article is a good one really!1
i`m really looking forward to pes 2010 tried fifa 10 but it just doesnt feel right for me... and if pes is what the reviews are telling.. i`ll be enjoying pes 2010 for a loooong time!!!!
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dr Force said:
The more video's I see the more I can tell that PES has definately returned to it's roots and subsequent form. I have been playing alot of FIFA and i think it is a good game but the problem is space in FIFA which makes it a repetitive experience in comparison to PES.

PES allows you to hold and think, pass and move and not have to consistantly go down the wings. It's so difficult to get a shot off from 25/30 yards in FIFA so you are always forced wide where headers are often a very limp affair.
It's the great 1-2's in midfield that seperate these two games at the sacrafice of some animation/collision and PES is far superior in this respect.I also feel i can beat a man in PES with speed of thought whereas I just cannot find the time or space in FIFA despite it's 360 dribbling.

PES's heading and ball physics are also superb with more variables to deflections, crossing and general passing which adds more freedom to the general play IMO and results in those panic stricken scrambles for a sustained period of pressure.

FIFA is a great attempt but it's still not a patch on PES5 and with 2010 looking more and more like a highly polished 5 then I think this may well score higher than FIFA again.
Click to expand...

Oh man I agree, especially the bold part.

I play mostly with Hoffenheim, Hamburg and Woflsburg in FIFA and despite all the teams having good midfielders I can't I can't help but go out wide because as you say the space in the middle isn't there. Also player positioning isn't very good either, coupled with the terrible tactics in FIFA 10, the same things tend to happen in my offline games over and over again. Its the main reason why I don't play with Spurs in FIFA.

Online games tend to be different because a lot of people play kick and run football, this gives me tons of times to walk about in midfield with the ball.

I do wish PES 2010 had FIFA freedom of passing, with the Konami touch of course. I want to be able to dink a 20 yard pass into space with Pirlo for example, complete with his signature motions.

I don't agree with you about PES 2010 being a highly polished PES5 though :))
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Encouraging read the ML Part 1.

Spoiler because it's long.


2010 Master League Play Through - Part 1

Ahh, Master League. A jewel in the crown of the PES series both past and present. Having said that, even the biggest fans will have to admit the mode has been going a little downhill in the past few years, and with very little advancement from game to game, was in danger of becoming obsolete.

Then rejoice, my friends, when I say that Master League has been thoroughly upgraded and, dare I say it, is returning better than ever. Why? Well read on, as I take you on a journey spanning literally hours in Part 1 of PESFan’s Master League play through.

Loading up the mode I was instructed, as ever, to select a team to nurture and make my own for the foreseeable future. Having no real ties to the Premiership but liking Martin O’Neill, I chose West Midlands Village.

After setting up how I wanted the league to be formatted (unfortunately there’s still no third division), i.e. 20 teams, goal difference before head to head, the cup not featuring two legs, that sort of thing, I was presented with my given sponsors for the coming season.

Firstly, there was Zaalachsk, a “Dutch Car Manufacturer”, who gave me a deal of £1.4m for 3 years with a home win bonus of 60k. They also promised that if I won three games in a row, they’d provide me with a further 80k, with incremental increases the more I won. Hurrah!

But beware, as they then warned that if I managed to blunder into losing more than five home games during the season my sponsorship deal would be forfeit. Those fiends. I was also given two more sponsors, the first of which was Lesplindu, a French consumer electronics company who granted me 660k a season for 3 years with a 60k win bonus and no cancellation clause. There was also Alpilatteria, an Italian food company, also gave me a 4 year deal worth 800k a year and a 60k win bonus, again, with no cancellation clause. This brought my team funds to £41,785,000.

PES was not done, as I then found out my 28 thousand-strong fan club also came with £4.2m cash for my managerial pocket, bringing the total team funds for the year to just over 46 million. Sounds a lot, but it’s surprising how quickly it disappears.

My coach, athletic trainer, club doctor and scout were all set to lvl 3, meaning I spent 4m on them collectively and my youth team and fan club were set to lvl 2, which meant another 2m. Then, there were my player wages, which came to just over 12m in total.

So before I’d changed anything my team funds for the year were down roughly 18m to 23.7m. Looking for ways to remedy this expenditure, I changed my youth team and fan club to lvl 1, along with my athletic trainer and club doctor. This saved me a few million I’d plan to use on transfers, job done for now.

I set up my formation, a 4-3-3 with Carew up front supported by Ashley Young and Gabriel Agbonlahor, and played around with my Team Style settings. After a bit of a think, I ended up going for high player support, attacking style and no compactness or pressing. I called it the ‘Tony Mowbray’ and gave myself another pat on the back.

This image has been resized, click here to view the full image


I also tweaked my training schedules, taking full advantage of Master League’s new ability to change the areas training points are spread about for players who I thought would benefit from it. I told Carew to train mostly in shooting and Ashley Young to focus on dribble speed, for example. I also went on a bit of a spending spree with my newly freed up funds and increased my coach to lvl 4, at the cost of 3m, which also upped the total points I could assign in training slightly.

Anyway, enough with that, my first game was coming up. The football gods must loathe me, as it turned out to involve an away day at Anfield to take on Liverpool. It was a pretty dull game truth be told, although I’m generally a pretty dull player, so there you go. Much to my displeasure, Salifou missed an absolute sitter with the chance at an open goal, instead choosing to blast it completely wide of the post with his first touch. I tell you. He couldn’t finish an egg that lad. Mark Lawrenson suddenly awakened too, spouting, “Well quite honestly, that would have changed the course of the game!”

Thanks for that Mark, I’d missed you.

0-0 at half time, not bad for me if I’m honest. With the second half in full swing however, I managed to score an absolutely cracking goal using Big John Carew, surprising myself, everyone in the ground, and perhaps most startlingly Mark Lawrenson, who had since changed his mind about us and declared it the best goal he’d ever seen.

At the end of the game I was presented with a screen showing the gate receipts from the match, although presumably because I was away this time the number totalled 0. Back on the menu, I had a look at the youth team, and after a brief look at some of their individual stats and a recommendation from my coach that Ximelez was a pacey player, I signed him up on a 222k professional contract.

In the next game I beat Lancashire Athletic 2-0 to progress in the England Cup, but in the game after that Yorkshire Orange humbled me with a 1-0 defeat. Ups and downs to the season thus far, but not a terrible start. The next game was away at Manchester Blues, where it was raining (natch). I scored a lovely goal in this one with a move totalling probably 20 passes or so, and ended up winning the game 1-0. I was also being awarded with gate income from my home matches now, the cup game bringing a mere 80k but the league match earning me a respectable 260k, perhaps an indication that even in PES no one can be bothered with the league cup.

Back to the menu screen and I was presented with a warning that Brad Friedel, my goalkeeper, was unhappy about something. My coach explained further by telling me it was because his contract was expiring, so I gave the cheeky guy a 2 year extension, which seemed to keep him quiet for a while. I don’t know if my team saw this as a sign of weakness, because the turn after this Delfouneso was suddenly unhappy with the position he was being played in. Sigh.

Now, I either had two options with this, the first was to just play him in his natural position or choose to specially train him in the new position at the cost of time and money. Quite a lot of money, too (about 10m), so it’s probably only viable for a team with cash to burn. Or there was the third option, which was to continue and let him sulk. I chose this one, and then dropped him a few games later. You’re not with Martin O’Neill now you know.

Further investigation revealed I could also train a player in the use of a new card, but again, it was too rich for my blood.

This image has been resized, click here to view the full image


A few games later, and I began to notice I’d a) stopped scoring, and b) my players seemed unnaturally fatigued and in bad condition. Fatigue has always been a problem with Master League, the idea that a player can’t play two games in two weeks without becoming absolutely exhausted is a ridiculous one to me, but this was different.

I remembered what I’d done at the start of the season in diminishing the ability of my athletic trainer in favour of increasing that of my coach. Turns out a better athletic trainer deals with fatigue better, as well as increasing the chances of your players being in better condition. I increased him to lvl 4, and in a few games time I started to reap the benefits, even if it did take a chunk from my budget.

Likewise my club doctor seemed quite unable to properly deal with an injury my team had sustained in any reasonable amount of time. The injury was only to Steve Sidwell though, so I left the doctor at lvl 1.

I also liked how your scout gives reports on other teams prior to playing them, for example with West Midlands City “Will probably go all defensive and play 11 men behind the ball.”, I thought it was a nice touch, and true to form, they were exceedingly defensive.

About 6 games into the season and I seemed to not be scoring as much as previously, i.e. at all. I thought a change in tactics was called for, the Tony Mowbray was no longer benefiting me as much as I’d have hoped, so it was back to the Team Styles screen to devise a new pressurising, long ball using, thug team to bully the league from now on.

The Europa League groups were then drawn, and as West Midlands qualified last season, I ended up being put with Villareal, FC Twente, and some other team who I forget and as thus is unimportant to me. When you play a Europa League game it has its own separate background, is all nicely licensed, the competing teams are properly sorted into groups of A-L, and generally feels like a suitably grand step-up from the normal league.

I lost my next two games, as well as getting knocked out of the England Cup by East London. So far my debut season was turning out to be as disappointing as real football is. Who says PES isn’t realistic? The European Footballer Of The Year was then announced, unsurprisingly featuring Messi, C. Ronaldo and Kaka in the top 3 with 550 votes, 480 and 450 votes respectively.

I played on in both my domestic league and the Europa League (a campaign which had ended in disappointment for me by late December) to end up in 7th place in January, feeling encouraged and ready to expand my squad with the look into the transfer market. It would have to wait, however, as Part 1 was up.

Come back tomorrow to read Part 2 of my Master League play through. If you ask any questions about transfers/future ML events, I’ll try and squeeze them in the report tomorrow. Cheers for reading.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Makes for a very good reading.

If they added the ability of receving offers from other clubs it would be so much better.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

is the la liga licence confirmed??? because in the winingelven video you see valencia and more teams from the liga any 1 know if this is confirmed because i wass angry when i heard that la liga was taken off from pro evo nothing worser then playing fake teams
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

charlievolano said:
Makes for a very good reading.

If they added the ability of receving offers from other clubs it would be so much better.
Click to expand...

you do get offers from other clubs don't you? At least in last PES titles. Or do you mean yourself as the coach?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I haven't played PES for years now (since PES 6), but you can choose to play as the default team with Castollo etc or as a "real" team, right?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

no la liga license??? or did they add new licensed teams like valencia etc what are the confirmed teams

real
barca
athletico
and whats the rest
 
Last edited:
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I can see where you guys are coming from with the manual v assisted controls thing, but imo in multiplayer it shouldn't really be player attributes deciding the winner...

It used to frustrate me no end when on PES5/6 someone would just pass to Adriano at every opportunity, whack it and GOAL, nearly every time... no skill involved.
Same with Beckham at crossing - get level with the box, tap a button and it puts a goal on a plate more often than not.
And with any good passer, you just aim in a general direction, tap a button and get an inch-perfect through ball to set up a one-on-one.

Yes, this may be good if you are building a team in an offline mode as you can get players of certain styles to make a team which suits you, but online people just exploit the assisted nature of the game.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

DagsJT said:
I haven't played PES for years now (since PES 6), but you can choose to play as the default team with Castollo etc or as a "real" team, right?
Click to expand...

I understand they have done away with this now, as Castello and Co are in your youth team in PES 2010. So yes, you can promote them into your team by giving them a professional contract, but i don't think you can start an ML with them from scratch, like the old days. This is what i have understood anyway.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Rob92 said:
I can see where you guys are coming from with the manual v assisted controls thing, but imo in multiplayer it shouldn't really be player attributes deciding the winner...

It used to frustrate me no end when on PES5/6 someone would just pass to Adriano at every opportunity, whack it and GOAL, nearly every time... no skill involved.
Same with Beckham at crossing - get level with the box, tap a button and it puts a goal on a plate more often than not.
And with any good passer, you just aim in a general direction, tap a button and get an inch-perfect through ball to set up a one-on-one.

Yes, this may be good if you are building a team in an offline mode as you can get players of certain styles to make a team which suits you, but online people just exploit the assisted nature of the game.
Click to expand...

To fair though Rob, I dont feel that the 'speed merchants' will win this year. I think the best PES player wins. The sprint button will not rule over the footballing brain. Or at least, after hundreds of games on the demo, thats the way it makes me feel. But I guess only time will tell.

Composure, tactics, formations, and the all-round skill of the gamer should produce the winner in most cases. I can see very good PES players beating good PES player's with far lesser skilled teams. This was a point Cannigia highlighted, and I tend to agree with him.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Rob92 said:
I can see where you guys are coming from with the manual v assisted controls thing, but imo in multiplayer it shouldn't really be player attributes deciding the winner...

It used to frustrate me no end when on PES5/6 someone would just pass to Adriano at every opportunity, whack it and GOAL, nearly every time... no skill involved.
Same with Beckham at crossing - get level with the box, tap a button and it puts a goal on a plate more often than not.
And with any good passer, you just aim in a general direction, tap a button and get an inch-perfect through ball to set up a one-on-one.

Yes, this may be good if you are building a team in an offline mode as you can get players of certain styles to make a team which suits you, but online people just exploit the assisted nature of the game.
Click to expand...

But isn't that all part of it? Yes is it boring when people continually pick the strongest teams and use their best players to predictable effect, but then you just have to find people who are prepared to play with slightly more adventurous teams.

I'd rather have that problem than a game of automatons who fundamentally all play the same. I don't see the point in having say Andrea Pirlo's facial likeness and correct kit if his passing ability is dependent on my ability to use a manual pass system. In that respect he'd be the same as Gattuso, Rosicky, Lampard and Joey Barton.

That's honestly how I feel, even with FIFA 10; the individuality isn't there and never has been.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom