PES2010 discussion thread

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

He's right though, manual passing in PES is the same scripted passing as the rest of the game. It's pretty pointless.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Again, Manual passing = Scripted passes. Why ? Press X correctly and the ball ends up at Y. That is what you call scripted. It's premeditated. Scripted. Preordained. Scripted. Call it whatever you want. It isnt rocket science, but it is scripted. Even if you dont apply the correct power and the pass falls short of its intended target. Scripted.

Gab, Tik X5 - Please enlighten me as to why this statement is incorrect ?

Either one of you ? I'm all ears boys.

 

[Andy]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Err.. He doesnt mean 20 different running animations.

Thanks Lami, i see what you mean now. Drekkard was on about animations within a running style, sorry my bad.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Gab, Tik X5 - Please enlighten me as to why this statement is incorrect ?

Either one of you ? I'm all ears boys.

Scripted usually refers to the fact that, for example - in PES, if I press this way and press pass, the CPU will decide not to give it enough power so that it's just about interceptable by the CPU player. Or overhit the pass just enough so that it goes out of play (or straight to the opposition). This can happen in PES. (Yes I realise that's the stats coming into play and that's how you like the game.)

In FIFA on fully manual, if you under-hit the pass, you will hit an under-hit pass. If you DON'T under-hit the pass, you WILL NOT HIT an under-hit pass, because the CPU has no "excuse" for interfering.

But it all comes down to preference and I can totally understand it. When Lami said about the players not being Sunday League players for example, and that all the passes should reach their targets because they're star players - this is 100% EXACTLY what seperates the games, and is the best example of why I am so glad there is PES and there is FIFA.

To me (and this is just my personal opinion), I see no point in playing a game that does so much with the stats. If I want to see Lampard making every pass like he does in real life, with little-to-no help from me bar pointing a stick in a vague direction... I'd rather just watch a real match.

If I don't feel like I have total control, and like it's my fault when I misplace a pass, then I feel like there's no point (because after years of playing PES I am just so sick of being restricted). Hence why I love FIFA.

When you start out on fully manual, yes, you hit shots like a one-legged drunken tramp with a blindfold on getting kicked in the nuts by a sumo wrestler, BUT... Just like real life, practice for a month, and you'll score a belter. Practise for two months, and you'll score two or three. Just like real life, it becomes second nature, but at the same time the stats of the individual players DO still come into play, just not so much as to stop you scoring a reasonably decent goal with a defender if you know what you're doing.

And that's why I love FIFA (or rather, I love the philosophy of FIFA, because this level of control is something I've cried out for for years).

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

My english is not good.I didn't understand about scripted,preordained,premediated or whatever..

''if you dont apply the correct power and the pass falls short.''

Everybody want this,right?

Well, two interesting points from that really. I'll try to explain it for you as simply as I can.

A) We weren't talking about "if you don't apply the correct power the pass falls short", no.
We were talking about "sometimes you press the pass button, the GAME decides the power for you, and MAKES it go short even if you don't want it to".

B) Some people DON'T actually want it to be that "if you don't apply the correct power then the pass falls short" - they want it to be that the game decides using the attributes of each player, whether they have the accuracy and the vision to pull the pass off, regardless of the user input (there are no power bars for normal passing in Pro Evo, which means that the game has to decide how much power to put into a pass).

Again, some people like that (and I do genuinely understand why; because it's using the player's "real" attributes to decide).

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Scripted usually refers to the fact that, for example - in PES, if I press this way and press pass, the CPU will decide not to give it enough power so that it's just about interceptable by the CPU player. Or overhit the pass just enough so that it goes out of play (or straight to the opposition). This can happen in PES. (Yes I realise that's the stats coming into play and that's how you like the game.)

In FIFA on fully manual, if you under-hit the pass, you will hit an under-hit pass. If you DON'T under-hit the pass, you WILL NOT HIT an under-hit pass, because the CPU has no "excuse" for interfering.

But it all comes down to preference and I can totally understand it. When Lami said about the players not being Sunday league players for example, and that all the passes should reach their targets because they're star players - this is 100% EXACTLY what seperates the games, and is the best example of why I am so glad there is FIFA and there is PES.

To me (and this is just my personal opinion), I see no point in playing a game that does so much with the stats. If I want to see Lampard making every pass like he does in real life, with little-to-no help from me bar pointing a stick in a vague direction... I'd rather just watch a real match.

If I don't feel like I have total control, and like it's my fault when I misplace a pass, then I feel like there's no point (because after years of playing PES I am just so sick of being restricted). Hence why I love FIFA.

When you start out on fully manual, yes, you hit shots like a one-legged drunken tramp with a blindfold on getting kicked in the nuts by a sumo wrestler, BUT... Just like real life, practice for a month, and you'll score a belter. Practise for two months, and you'll score two or three. Just like real life, it becomes second nature, but at the same time the stats of the individual players DO still come into play, just not so much as to stop you scoring a reasonably decent goal with a defender if you know what you're doing.

And that's why I love FIFA.

Excellent post Chris, and well written as ever. This is how to answer a query, using intelligence and clarifying your point.

I love the manual pass, and I hope they sort it out so it works alot better in PES 2010 than it does in PES 2009. I'm not knocking the system. It is a brilliant alternative. But what I wrote is correct. Like it or not, it's a correct statement. Thats the whole idea of manual passing, getting the ball exactly where you want it. Now if this is the case, and you excel at the system, then the pass goes exactly where you intended. That pass, by definition, is premeditated and that term, is scripted.

 

[Junka]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

HUGE FAKE

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

But what I wrote is correct. Like it or not, it's a correct statement. Thats the whole idea of manual passing, getting the ball exactly where you want it. Now if this is the case, and you excel at the system, then the pass goes exactly where you intended. That pass, by defination, is premeditated and that term, is scripted.

Yes but that part of the term scripted - i.e. "if I point north on the stick my player will move north", or in real-world terms "if I throw this apple into the air it will come back down again" - is not what anybody is ever referring to when they say "scripted", as much as that is correct.

They're referring specifically to the portion of scripting where the game says - "right, you've had enough of the ball now, the next pass that you aim inch-perfectly to Gerrard I'm going to send my striker's way - GOAL!", i.e. the part where the buttons you are pressing and the directions you're aiming aren't in the CPU's version of the script.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dude,manual pass is 4 directions.Am I wrong?

I don't know anything about this but surely it can't be four directions? That would just be straight up/down/left/right? Do you mean 8/16 directions?

 

[Nick Cave]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Must be 8 at least...

 

[Mart]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Just a random thought on the 80% thing. It's pretty standard industry practice to mark a preview build as 80% complete. It's not scientific in any way but just underlines that what you're playing isn't the final product.

Unfortunately for Konami every little thing they do is analysed to the ⁿth degree because of the last couple of years so "zomg! 80% build! lies! etc." quickly built up. But then that's what the internet's for.

Jimmy, can't believe you chose Boro, then. Glory* boy.

* Glory being very much a relative term.

 

[seppovich]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Well, two interesting points from that really. I'll try to explain it for you as simply as I can.

A) We weren't talking about "if you don't apply the correct power the pass falls short", no.
We were talking about "sometimes you press the pass button, the GAME decides the power for you, and MAKES it go short even if you don't want it to".

B) Some people DON'T actually want it to be that "if you don't apply the correct power then the pass falls short" - they want it to be that the game decides using the attributes of each player, whether they have the accuracy and the vision to pull the pass off, regardless of the user input (there are no power bars for normal passing in Pro Evo, which means that the game has to decide how much power to put into a pass).

Again, some people like that (and I do genuinely understand why; because it's using the player's "real" attributes to decide).

generally you are right. but i think, sometimes the possibility of physics are limited. you cannot take a very hard hot in some situations, does not matter how long you press the button. there i want to see the GAME restricting it. then i want to say "i never should have shot on goal in this situation"
this "100%-controll-thing" was there in iss64 where you could chase a high ball at full speed and head it back 20yards.
from pes1 to pes2009 konami implemented the restrictions of physics more and more which i am very pleased (in/off?)
do you understand what i mean?

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I understand what you're saying seppovich.

About the shooting power though, it does make a difference (try a full-power shot with Gerrard and then a full-power shot with a League 2 defender), although even more so in the new game. They've implemented a system where if your shooting power is 80+ (or 90+, I forget) you can hit Gerrard-style shots from outside of the area regularly. I'll never forget the goal Tim scored with Robben at the Emirates, it was just mental (in a good way)...

 

[Lami]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Did you try? Please go and try .It's 4 directions.left-right-up-down.And it's still same in pes 2010.Like a joke.

Man, that is just impossible Are you sure you aren't playing PES 2009 on your Nintendo?

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Scripted usually refers to the fact that, for example - in PES, if I press this way and press pass, the CPU will decide not to give it enough power so that it's just about interceptable by the CPU player. Or overhit the pass just enough so that it goes out of play (or straight to the opposition). This can happen in PES. (Yes I realise that's the stats coming into play and that's how you like the game.)

In FIFA on fully manual, if you under-hit the pass, you will hit an under-hit pass. If you DON'T under-hit the pass, you WILL NOT HIT an under-hit pass, because the CPU has no "excuse" for interfering.

But it all comes down to preference and I can totally understand it. When Lami said about the players not being Sunday League players for example, and that all the passes should reach their targets because they're star players - this is 100% EXACTLY what seperates the games, and is the best example of why I am so glad there is PES and there is FIFA.

To me (and this is just my personal opinion), I see no point in playing a game that does so much with the stats. If I want to see Lampard making every pass like he does in real life, with little-to-no help from me bar pointing a stick in a vague direction... I'd rather just watch a real match.

If I don't feel like I have total control, and like it's my fault when I misplace a pass, then I feel like there's no point (because after years of playing PES I am just so sick of being restricted). Hence why I love FIFA.

When you start out on fully manual, yes, you hit shots like a one-legged drunken tramp with a blindfold on getting kicked in the nuts by a sumo wrestler, BUT... Just like real life, practice for a month, and you'll score a belter. Practise for two months, and you'll score two or three. Just like real life, it becomes second nature, but at the same time the stats of the individual players DO still come into play, just not so much as to stop you scoring a reasonably decent goal with a defender if you know what you're doing.

And that's why I love FIFA (or rather, I love the philosophy of FIFA, because this level of control is something I've cried out for for years).

It's a double edged sword with that. Because with that amount of fidelity to control, players lose individuality. If the game executes each pass in the exact direction you choose with fully manual, then passing and shooting accuracy would be the exact same for all players.

In real life, how do miss-passes happen? Certainly not because the player wanted it to happen by intentionally passing it in the wrong direction, but rather because his final execution didn't live up to the way he wanted the ball to go, because of his capabilities/attributes. Which is why I prefer PES's passing system...

 

[seppovich]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's a double edged sword with that. Because with that amount of fidelity to control, players lose individuality. If the game executes each pass in the exact direction you choose with fully manual, then passing and shooting accuracy would be the exact same for all players.

In real life, how do miss-passes happen? Certainly not because the player wanted it to happen by intentionally passing it in the wrong direction, but rather because his final execution didn't live up to the way he wanted the ball to go, because of his capabilities/attributes. Which is why I prefer PES's passing system...

well said. this is exactly the point i tried to express with my post above.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

In real life, how do miss-passes happen? Certainly not because the player wanted it to happen by intentionally passing it in the wrong direction, but rather because his final execution didn't live up to the way he wanted the ball to go

Exactly. But in PES it is decided for you whether that execution will be 100% correct or not, rather than the player himself actually getting the execution wrong (and the player himself is being controlled by me, so it should be me, with the pad in my hand, getting the execution wrong - IN MY OPINION!).

It should be the game making it difficult to get the execution right 100% of the time, rather than the game deciding "this is the moment you're going to fluff it now" (in my opinion).

Again, I can see why both games are different, and I can see the good points and the bad points of each. It's purely down to personal preference as far as I'm concerned. I would rather sacrifice individuality to feel like it's me getting the passes exactly right, or getting the execution wrong.

(Because that feeling mirrors the feeling you get in real life IMO, you know when you've hit a good shot or a bad shot before you've even kicked the ball in FIFA, whereas the feeling I get in PES when a pass goes short is "why the fuck did you just do that when I pressed the buttons perfectly" - more frustrating than realistic).

Why you people don't believe me? I tryed now again.It's really 4 way.Like a joke.Please run the game and try.I know numbers.It's not 8 directions.Just right-left-up-down.

I've just tried manual passing in PES 2009 really quickly and it's at least 8 direction. I wasn't hitting perfectly straight passes up/down/left/right. I don't think you're quite understanding what 4 direction/8 direction means.

 

[Nick Cave]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's a double edged sword with that. Because with that amount of fidelity to control, players lose individuality. If the game executes each pass in the exact direction you choose with fully manual, then passing and shooting accuracy would be the exact same for all players.

In real life, how do miss-passes happen? Certainly not because the player wanted it to happen by intentionally passing it in the wrong direction, but rather because his final execution didn't live up to the way he wanted the ball to go, because of his capabilities/attributes. Which is why I prefer PES's passing system...

It comes down to the old do you want the players attributes to dictate in the game or do 'you' want to be in 100% control, which unless you're playing in the 1st person, makes no sense to me...

 

[gerd]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Chris this is the best explanation i've ever read about the term "scripted"...to my own shame i must admit that i never saw the relation with the stats...if that is true (and i don't doubt it), then that is the first negative point about the stats that i've come across.

Like i said in a PM, i prefer FIFA09 by far from it's PES counterpart. But the one thing that i miss in FIFA is the individuality...if i understand you then it's also the individuality (i.e. the stats) that is "responsable" for the scripting which made the last two PES virtually unplayable...that is a disappointment.

Stil i have a(n honest) question (as opposed to: i'm sceptical about what you are saying): how come that IMHO the scripted passing was less noticeable in PES3 and PES4 (and even 5 and 6, but those are my favourite ones) ??? Is it simply because we all notice the difference since FIFA has become as good...i doubt it for me personally because i've never even tried the full manual controls in FIFA...(i told i'm a very lousy player).

 

[Nick Cave]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I've just tried manual passing in PES 2009 really quickly and it's at least 8 direction. I wasn't hitting perfectly straight passes up/down/left/right. I don't think you're quite understanding what 4 direction/8 direction means.

Thank god for that, thought time had gone backwards...

 

[acey]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I tryed again now.And try to manual pass 8 directions.And it's happen.Sorry everybody =).It's just a little hard.Sorry again.

 

[Nick Cave]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I tryed again now.And try to manual pass 8 directions.And it's happen.Sorry everybody =).It's just a little hard.Sorry again.

We'll forgive you...

 

[theCRO]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's a double edged sword with that. Because with that amount of fidelity to control, players lose individuality. If the game executes each pass in the exact direction you choose with fully manual, then passing and shooting accuracy would be the exact same for all players.

In real life, how do miss-passes happen? Certainly not because the player wanted it to happen by intentionally passing it in the wrong direction, but rather because his final execution didn't live up to the way he wanted the ball to go, because of his capabilities/attributes. Which is why I prefer PES's passing system...

On the money right there, you shouldn't be able to hit a pinpoint pass everytime with the likes of Song or Huddlestone, no matter how good a player u are. This is not a simulation..their stats should detirmine their ambition in passing and their limitations..so passes astray, especially under pressure, should be frequent.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Like i said in a PM, i prefer FIFA09 by far from it's PES counterpart. But the one thing that i miss in FIFA is the individuality...

It's very difficult - if not impossible - to have manual controls and individuality unfortunately (at least when it comes to the basics i.e. passing). If you want total control of the passing then the stats mean nothing. If you want the stats to be the deciding factor then you can aim a pass perfectly but if your player doesn't have the "vision" then it will go to an opposition player. The latter problem annoys me more than the former problem, so that determines what game I play.

Again, this is why I'm glad there's two different games. It's all down to personal preference. (FIFA does incorporate the attributes, i.e. when shooting you have a larger than usual margin of error with better finishers, but it's nowhere near the level of individuality you get with PES.)

if i understand you then it's also the individuality (i.e. the stats) that is "responsable" for the scripting which made the last two PES virtually unplayable...that is a disappointment.

I can't comment because I didn't play the games to death - I have PES 2009 but the feeling of random passes going off-course for seemingly no reason did annoy me, but what annoyed me more was being able to score belters from all over the park because of the goalkeepers (either that or shooting was a bit TOO accurate, which may be the case).

Stil i have a(n honest) question (as opposed to: i'm sceptical about what you are saying): how come that IMHO the scripted passing was less noticeable in PES3 and PES4 (and even 5 and 6, but those are my favourite ones) ??? Is it simply because we all notice the difference since FIFA has become as good...i doubt it for me personally because i've never even tried the full manual controls in FIFA...(i told i'm a very lousy player).

I can't comment with absolute authority because in recent years I've not played PES as much as I did once upon a time, but perhaps it's simply because more "forced errors" have been put into the game now, to stop people holding onto the ball for 90 minutes?

Not only that but if you do actually go and play the games again - I still have Winning Eleven 6 FE - you'll be amazed at how poorly they play compared to our memories. Not games like PES 5/6, which are still great games, but WE6FE was always my favourite and I wish I hadn't gone back to play it again.

The response times, compared to how they are in the modern games, are disgraceful, and the feeling of being "on rails" is worse than I ever remember it. So many times you run out of play without being able to do anything about it. I think it's fair to say games have come a long way since then but maybe we don't appreciate it because we don't compare them often enough to realise.

Both PES 2010 and FIFA 10 will be great games if you're a fan of (the mechanics of) either, I'm sure of it.

 

[seppovich]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

...

Like i said in a PM, i prefer FIFA09 by far from it's PES counterpart. But the one thing that i miss in FIFA is the individuality...if i understand you then it's also the individuality (i.e. the stats) that is "responsable" for the scripting which made the last two PES virtually unplayable...that is a disappointment.

...

this is the reason why many people (including me ) still prefer pes over fifa.
e.g. if a cross comes to long and you have to rush for it and you try to shoot on the long corner of the goal. now when you play with 100% manual in fifa, the shot goes to this corner exactly where you want it though it is physically impossible. in pes the ball goes faar beneath the SHORT corner, doesn't matter how much shot accuracy the player has (you can see the players foot aiming for the desired direction)
this is one of the main points why pes !always was closer to the real thing, even in 2009...

 

[liger05]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

this is the reason why many people (including me ) still prefer pes over fifa.
e.g. if a cross comes to long and you have to rush for it and you try to shoot on the long corner of the goal. now when you play with 100% manual in fifa, the shot goes to this corner exactly where you want it though it is physically impossible. in pes the ball goes faar beneath the SHORT corner, doesn't matter how much shot accuracy the player has (you can see the players foot aiming for the desired direction)
this is one of the main points why pes !always was closer to the real thing, even in 2009...

That doesnt happen in Fifa at all

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Exactly. But in PES it is decided for you whether that execution will be 100% correct or not, rather than the player himself actually getting the execution wrong (and the player himself is being controlled by me, so it should be me, with the pad in my hand, getting the execution wrong - IN MY OPINION!)..

That would be great for Bal/BaP, where you are controlling yourself in the game (but even that is not v,realistic because in BaL/BaP you're a beginner novice). But when playing with Spain, for instance, it's not realistic to be delivering passes when controlling C. Ronaldo with the same accuracy they would be delivered using I. Casillas, just because it's the same player on the controller.

The final execution of the pass should be an aggregate of the way the player wanted the ball to go (or in game world, the direction you choose to flick the stick), and the actual capabilities of the player making the pass (or, the "accuracy" stats of the player). Which is why in multiplayer, a really good player (with the game pad) handling Seville could play just as good as a not-bad player (noob, inexperienced player) handling Real Madrid.

The lack of this with FIFA09's (and presumingly, 10) full manual passing and shooting makes the whole team's attributes wash up together and end up being unified as one same accuracy for all players, further aggravating the game's problem regarding loss of individuality. You don't get that special feeling that you're "controlling Ronaldo" and could finally do exactly what you want, because you'll be able to do the exact same thing controlling any other player.

 

[Andy]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

the feeling I get in PES when a pass goes short is "why the fuck did you just do that when I pressed the buttons perfectly" - more frustrating than realistic).
.

Hi chris, i suppose its just down to mindset. The way i would look at that situation is its because he has 1,totally fluffed it as in real life top stars do from time to time make mistakes or 2,his stats for long and/or short range are maybe not that good, or finally 3, his form arrows are blue or purple.

Also my views on scripting are (example) your 1-0 up with 10 mins to go, you can feel the game balance swing as the other team pressures and you just know when their winger gets the ball into the box there gonna score.Although this doesnt happen every time you can tell when its going to. Another example is when your playing with a top team and you know you should be battering the opposition, but as you say your passes are going astray with almost every player used (in this form of carpet scripting i really do think individuality does go out the window)
Then sometimes around the final third of the match it eases up so you have a chance to get that equaliser/winner.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

FIFA does have individuality like PES, the difference is PES over exaggerates it while FIFA takes them into acount whilst allowing you to have total control of where you want the ball to go.

 

[napo_rz]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's very difficult - if not impossible - to have manual controls and individuality unfortunately (at least when it comes to the basics i.e. passing). If you want total control of the passing then the stats mean nothing. If you want the stats to be the deciding factor then you can aim a pass perfectly but if your player doesn't have the "vision" then it will go to an opposition player. The latter problem annoys me more than the former problem, so that determines what game I play.

Again, this is why I'm glad there's two different games. It's all down to personal preference. (FIFA does incorporate the attributes, i.e. when shooting you have a larger than usual margin of error with better finishers, but it's nowhere near the level of individuality you get with PES.)

I have ideas here

why not combine both?

so we have a manual control like FIFA does, but at the same time apply attributes for major deciding factor that made the action finalized.

example :

1. passing directions : we will have total 360 degree passing but there SHALL BE something like a percentage on where a pass would go depending on the footballer attributes; so this will be interpreted as the better the footballer attributes the more precise the pass would be.


So when u made a long pass with a sunday league footballer there will be a tendency the pass would have several degrees miss -which ended the ball landed a few meters wide.

2. same thing with kicking power : the lesser the footballer technique the bigger the chance of kicking with 80% power bar ended up harder or softer...also determined by preferred foot, kicking angle, etc

but even with all of these, there shall be chances that even sunday league footballers can make perfect passes....

so I think we need to integrate a complex ratio system here

so at the same time we get the best of both worlds.

don't u think so?