PES2010 discussion thread

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

^
^
but every one can easly recognises that pes2010 animations and player moves is nothing compare fifa 2008 !! animations and player moves

^
Just like everybody could recognize how much of a painful experience it is playing FIFA online with all the exploits it has, and primitive tactical options.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

My last words on the PES v FIFA debate:

PES will always do some things better, FIFA will always do other things better - it's up to you to decide which advantages are more important to you.
There will never be a universal "better game" that absolutely everyone recognises as being better in every aspect... the same goes for every single type of game that has two or more games competing...

Spot on Rob.

Now your sig, just ammend it to, .....But not in Jimmy, anderson, Junka, Putuco, Han or Zee's house.

 

[drekkard]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dude you are talking about one of the most respected men in his trade in the world. If it wasn't for him and his team, football games today would not be what they are.

I read the interview (well what I could understand) and thought that he makes excellent points and sees things that we do not necesarilly see (usually the case with a genius). I do not always agree with what he says and does but respect his place in football gaming history and know he is not done yet.

For once try and post at least one thing positive about PES, you are starting to sound like a child and seemingly bitter that Konami implemented something over a long weekend that EA hoped was their trump card....tsk,tsk this from a fellow Barca supporter.

I bet if konami didn't have 360 movement you would be writing a thesis of their inadequacies as a result of it but now that it's in you are going for footplanting.

Pathetic! I for one know where I would like to plant my foot.

First of all, I wasn't the one talking about foot planting even if I do agree that PES needs some work done there.

If you read carefully my posts you will notice I always tend to explain my views on the game, and I talk a lot about the positives. I even tend to write long posts to explain things from a technical point (such as the post about how you define net animations with mesh-deform).

Just to let you know, I've stated many times my positives on the game. I put them here again specially for you:

- On close, the graphics are the best ones ever seen in a football game. I reserve my judgement about far views until I see the game on my tv.

- The new animations look definitely good even if overall the animation engine still has some obvious weaknesses (some starts/stops are too evident).

- Shooting physics are great (I don't like shooting to be scripted, I would prefer it in any kind of manualness AND mantain those great ball physics).

- Tactical cards seem to be a nice addition, though it's still to be seen the impact of them in the game.

- 360º is DEFINITELY an improvement (even if I think they decided to put it in watching EA was featuring it, and this is an OPPINION and I'm free to say it).

So, that said, I have a great respect for the work done with PES until PES 5. But from there, Seabass was lazy, Konami was lazy and didn't invest in a game that was selling millions. They even made it worse by employing a team of only 20 programmers for 2008! I'm free to think they tried to milk the cow and were surprised by EA (why they put 200 people to work in pes 2010 when they could have done that 2 years ago?).

To that, I must add that in my opinion, Seabass is not a good producer for next-gen games. The resources to develop games currently are different from the PS2 era. Things have changed a LOT, and while Seabass rests a legend for his work in that old-gen era, he seems to have lost something in next-gen and I don't see any change on him. Like the old mute-cinema actors that went down when sound arrived.

There's a great difference in quality between PES and the best sports titles right now overall. If they succeed in the online part of the game, they will recover some respect. But really, how bad a producer is when the star title DOESN'T WORK online for 2 years? It's him to blame as the producer and director.

Granted he's not as technically astute as you there infront of your High-end top of the range PC I'm sure.

I don't own a high-end PC nor I play on the PC anymore. I'm a ps3 owner. So you misfired there.

I'm not trying to seem "more astute" than seabass... We mere mortals are allowed to criticize things, isn't it? I'm for sure a silly twat next to him technically, but I assure you he's a silly twat in managerial skills and a game right now needs a LOT of these skills, you have 200 people working for you.

About football, it's clear Seabass and I doesn't share the same view about football. Not from the moment he said some weeks ago that the best player in the game would be Adriano because he's the most complete player (even more than messi and ronaldo in his oppinion). Not when I see a video of him playing the game and he is constantly running the wing to cross or cut back (I think he should have tried different things to let the users see variation, right?).

It's clear you like PES as it is and I respect it while I don't think the game is evolving as much, thus I exercise my right to say it.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

^
Just like everybody could recognize how much of a painful experience it is playing FIFA online with all the exploits it has, and primitive tactical options.

To be fair though Knight, PES 2009 has all of the above to online I've found. It's great when two people want to play football. When one person thinks he is Usain Bolt though it all goes sadly out of the window.

I have no problem with the ai's defence offline, but online, against sprint-festers, it's terrible. I have tried every tactic and nothing seems to work. Wtf ?

Thank the Lord they have addressed this in 2010. I'm an online PES noob but have become hooked of late. It's just a shame it's so easily spoilt at times. It's from one extreme to the other.

 

[gerd]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

My last words on the PES v FIFA debate:

If that would be true, it would make Evo Web a better place to be.
oh and i also prefer FIFA.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

First of all, I wasn't the one talking about foot planting even if I do agree that PES needs some work done there.

If you read carefully my posts you will notice I always tend to explain my views on the game, and I talk a lot about the positives. I even tend to write long posts to explain things from a technical point (such as the post about how you define net animations with mesh-deform).

Just to let you know, I've stated many times my positives on the game. I put them here again specially for you:

- On close, the graphics are the best ones ever seen in a football game. I reserve my judgement about far views until I see the game on my tv.

- The new animations look definitely good even if overall the animation engine still has some obvious weaknesses (some starts/stops are too evident).

- Shooting physics are great (I don't like shooting to be scripted, I would prefer it in any kind of manualness AND mantain those great ball physics).

- Tactical cards seem to be a nice addition, though it's still to be seen the impact of them in the game.

- 360º is DEFINITELY an improvement (even if I think they decided to put it in watching EA was featuring it, and this is an OPPINION and I'm free to say it).

So, that said, I have a great respect for the work done with PES until PES 5. But from there, Seabass was lazy, Konami was lazy and didn't invest in a game that was selling millions. They even made it worse by employing a team of only 20 programmers for 2008! I'm free to think they tried to milk the cow and were surprised by EA (why they put 200 people to work in pes 2010 when they could have done that 2 years ago?).

To that, I must add that in my opinion, Seabass is not a good producer for next-gen games. The resources to develop games currently are different from the PS2 era. Things have changed a LOT, and while Seabass rests a legend for his work in that old-gen era, he seems to have lost something in next-gen and I don't see any change on him. Like the old mute-cinema actors that went down when sound arrived.

There's a great difference in quality between PES and the best sports titles right now overall. If they succeed in the online part of the game, they will recover some respect. But really, how bad a producer is when the star title DOESN'T WORK online for 2 years? It's him to blame as the producer and director.



I don't own a high-end PC nor I play on the PC anymore. I'm a ps3 owner. So you misfired there.

I'm not trying to seem "more astute" than seabass... We mere mortals are allowed to criticize things, isn't it? I'm for sure a silly twat next to him technically, but I assure you he's a silly twat in managerial skills and a game right now needs a LOT of these skills, you have 200 people working for you.

About football, it's clear Seabass and I doesn't share the same view about football. Not from the moment he said some weeks ago that the best player in the game would be Adriano because he's the most complete player (even more than messi and ronaldo in his oppinion). Not when I see a video of him playing the game and he is constantly running the wing to cross or cut back (I think he should have tried different things to let the users see variation, right?).

It's clear you like PES as it is and I respect it while I don't think the game is evolving as much, thus I exercise my right to say it.

Well thats your best post ever for me. Fair play.

 

[gerd]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Drekkard, i will never begin a discussion on the technical aspests of games, you seem to know quite a lot about that aspects.
I agree with you that since FIFA08, Fifa is the better game (by far even).
But i think it is not fiar to blame Seabass. It might allbe his fault, but what you call lazyness could also be due to (in)decisions of the the higher management of Konami...i could ^point out a dozen of other reasons.

Granted, Seabass is the "face" of Pes, but i think people blame him too much without exactly knowing what goes on at Konami.

As fot my opinion on PES2010...i will see when i play the full game. I will buy both games but i thin FIFA will be the better one once again.

 

[mr_man]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

If there's one thing I would shamelessly take from Fifa, it's the trick system, gold I tell you. Wish PES could have that...

 

[master_smurf]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Trick system ???? How about freedom of movement (but with PES response times) and penalties and licenses.

To Obie - you play a football game to watch the characters running up and down ?

And before all tell me that adds so much to the play - tell EA to redo their player models first then get back to me.

I have no problem with the people who play FIFA because it offers many things not achieved in PES - It may truly be a "better" option but when I put in any sports game I want the players to replicate their real life counterparts - If FIFA can do that and fix the shooting system then I'll be there.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Trick system ???? How about freedom of movement (but with PES response times) and penalties and licenses.

To Obie - you play a football game to watch the characters running up and down ?

And before all tell me that adds so much to the play - tell EA to redo their player models first then get back to me.

I have no problem with the people who play FIFA because it offers many things not achieved in PES - It may truly be a "better" option but when I put in any sports game I want the players to replicate their real life counterparts - If FIFA can do that and fix the shooting system then I'll be there.

I couldnt have put that any better, agree 100%.

I think the trick system suits Fifa perfectly, they look amazing, but they wouldnt work with the PES concept. I would personally hate them to be in PES, I much prefer the subtle feints, and I appreciate the fact only the players with high technique can pull them off, and it isnt as easy as pressing one button. It's hard and requires perfect timing.

Two different games, two different options. Everyones a winner.

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I couldnt have put that any better, agree 100%.

I think the trick system suits Fifa perfectly, they look amazing, but they wouldnt work with the PES concept. I would personally hate them to be in PES, I much prefer the subtle feints, and I appreciate the fact only the players with high technique can pull them off, and it isnt as easy as pressing one button. It's hard and requires perfect timing.

Two different games, two different options. Everyones a winner.

Actually the trick system in FIFA09 is near perfection. Unlike popular belief, they're difficult to pull off, they don't work all the time, and only star players have a high probability of pulling them off successfully.

They range from simple feints (easy) to complicated rainbows (v.hard).... I'd love to see that in PES...

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Actually the trick system in FIFA09 is near perfection. Unlike popular belief, they're difficult to pull off, they don't work all the time, and only star players have a high probability of pulling them off successfully.

...

Your right, I meant to add that to my post. They are hard to pull off, totally agree. It's just my own personal little niggle though, I dont like the fact that you can initiate them with the press of a button thats all.

For example, the Flip-flap in PES requires you to move the stick/pad, from one diagonal to the other. It's the same type of motion you need pull off the trick in real life. You can only do it with certain players, and like you said above, only the world class players can even complete the move, never mind attempt it. Sometimes you need to do it on the move as well, which can be a little tricky to pull off. I like that.

The 'nutmeg' has a similar principle to real life with regards how you pull it off as well. Now obviously there are some pretty technical tricks in Fifa 09 that certainly would be hard to replicate by movements of the pad/stick, I appreciate that.

I just think, for me, alot of the tricks or feints in PES are relevant to certain movements in real life. Or they do for me anyway.

Dont get me wrong I love them in Fifa, the flick the ball up and over your head looks truly amazing,( Not the rainbow, or the Ossie Ardiles one as I prefer to call it. ) and when you pull it off you cant help but smile. I just wish you couldnt do it with the likes of John Terry et al. Thats not to say JT couldnt do that in real life, of course he could. He just doesnt. Thats my point.

Fifa's trick animations are jaw-dropping, no question. I just wouldnt like to see them in PES personally. I must admit the tricks were one of the main reasons I picked up a pre-owned Fifa 09. Never bought one since the N64.

Once again, thats why I think we need both games. Fifa does 'its thing' brilliantly, and PES does 'its thing' equally well.

 

[master_smurf]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I have no problem with tricks but they are on the periphery of the game and PES has enough of the stuff used in football today. How many times do you see a player rainbow a defender. I just think they are better things that would make a greater difference.

I would like to see the "push the ball in space and run around a defender" with the defender being able to body check the attacker if he moves in his way. - think the first part was or is in FIFA.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I would like to see the "push the ball in space and run around a defender" with the defender being able to body check the attacker if he moves in his way. - think the first part was or is in FIFA.

It is in Fifa, both parts. Especially the knocking the ball out of your feet with the right stick option. I mentioned that a few pages back, thats a feature I love in Fifa and think would work well in PES.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It is in Fifa, both parts. Especially the knocking the ball out of your feet with the right stick option. I mentioned that a few pages back, thats a feature I love in Fifa and think would work well in PES.

That would work so well in PES, especially with the better response times. Being able to create a few yards of space with the first touch is an essential part of football.

 

[zeemeister]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

That is a sweet trick. I wish PES had the ability to juggle a ball, as well, it would be cool if you could do it just to bring a ball under control or a spur of the moment flick over an on rushing opponent.

 

[mr_man]

That is a sweet trick. I wish PES had the ability to juggle a ball, as well, it would be cool if you could do it just to bring a ball under control or a spur of the moment flick over an on rushing opponent.

Lol if PES had that we might aswell have the whole damn trick system, I hope at the very least you can do Ronaldos jump cut... *when you want*, instead of relying on the "when I say so, system" from PES 09.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

That is a sweet trick. I wish PES had the ability to juggle a ball, as well, it would be cool if you could do it just to bring a ball under control or a spur of the moment flick over an on rushing opponent.

I would have the full Fifa 'trick-stick' repertoire in PES in an instant. Fifa's button lag kills the effectiveness of tricks in a match situation, but I think it could work really well in PES with the better response times.

 

[master_smurf]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

On Drekkard's latest comments - I agree with his observations though I place the blame more with Konami than Seabass. Then again maybe you blame Seabass because of the Japanese way of development but as big as Konami is you would think they would say "wait a minute....things have to change" Many development houses have been shouting about all the headaches that come with putting out a quality next-gen title. But if you look at Konami they let Kojima do the same and Metal Gear only changes when Kojima says "wow just saw this interesting thing they are doing in the west - maybe we should try that."

What is great about EA is that many are attacking the problem and trying to put forward the best - hopefully they will continue and it will not end up like Madden, when you are on top its only natural to get lazy.

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's really hard to pull off, and I think it's very realistic. The only reason why Konami can't have it in PES2010 because the Animations system is already struggling incorporating normal basic animations without sudden jerks or stutters... FIFA's tricks require a next-gen animation engine built from scratch which can link together animations naturally without having to mo-cap every single movement and possibility...

YouTube - Fifa 09 Standard Skills Tutorial

YouTube - Fifa 09 Juggling Skills Tutorial

YouTube - Fifa 09 Advanced Skills Tutorial

 

[Leo]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Your right, I meant to add that to my post. They are hard to pull off, totally agree. It's just my own personal little niggle though, I dont like the fact that you can initiate them with the press of a button thats all.

For example, the Flip-flap in PES requires you to move the stick/pad, from one diagonal to the other. It's the same type of motion you need pull off the trick in real life. You can only do it with certain players, and like you said above, only the world class players can even complete the move, never mind attempt it. Sometimes you need to do it on the move as well, which can be a little tricky to pull off. I like that.

The 'nutmeg' has a similar principle to real life with regards how you pull it off as well. Now obviously there are some pretty technical tricks in Fifa 09 that certainly would be hard to replicate by movements of the pad/stick, I appreciate that.

I just think, for me, alot of the tricks or feints in PES are relevant to certain movements in real life. Or they do for me anyway.

Dont get me wrong I love them in Fifa, the flick the ball up and over your head looks truly amazing,( Not the rainbow, or the Ossie Ardiles one as I prefer to call it. ) and when you pull it off you cant help but smile. I just wish you couldnt do it with the likes of John Terry et al. Thats not to say JT couldnt do that in real life, of course he could. He just doesnt. Thats my point.

Fifa's trick animations are jaw-dropping, no question. I just wouldnt like to see them in PES personally. I must admit the tricks were one of the main reasons I picked up a pre-owned Fifa 09. Never bought one since the N64.

Once again, thats why I think we need both games. Fifa does 'its thing' brilliantly, and PES does 'its thing' equally well.

Are you kidding me? You've got basic facts wrong there. It's in FIFA you have to replicate the foot movement on the great part of the feints with the right analogue stick, that's what makes it so good. For example, the flip-flap is done in that fasion, as well as step-overs, body-feints, etc. In PES it's very dull and only a few button presses away.

 

[master_smurf]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The push the ball into space doesnt need to be a "trick" though - it should be a basic movement option.

I understand people love tricks but really alot of that is fantasy football and not the norm

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's in FIFA you have to replicate the foot movement on the great part of the feints with the right analogue stick, that's what makes it so good. For example, the flip-flap is done in that fasion, as well as step-overs, body-feints, etc. In PES it's very dull and only a few button presses away.

Yes, I agree. The FIFA trick implementation does seem to replicate real feet movement on the stick. Watch the videos, it's really amazing and very complicated.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's so ironic that probably the only part of FIFA the PES fans in here like, is something I hate.

I hate the trick-stick! It just doesn't feel natural after PES, it relies too much on a complicated movement that is difficult to get exactly right twice in a row IMO. I'd much prefer the PES system of old where I'd press down R1 (at least I think it was R1) and do a little fake/sidestep one way to fool the oncoming player. I could never do that in FIFA.

 

[mr_man]

""

The push the ball into space doesnt need to be a "trick" though - it should be a basic movement option.

I understand people love tricks but really alot of that is fantasy football and not the norm

Fantasy? Oh please, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho(past ronaldinho) put the "fantasy" aspect whenever they layed a toe on the ball, that's why people go gaga whenever these skilled player get the ball, tricks also serve their purpose on being useful.

 

[zeemeister]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Lol if PES had that we might aswell have the whole damn trick system, I hope at the very least you can do Ronaldos jump cut... *when you want*, instead of relying on the "when I say so, system" from PES 09.

Nah I dont want the whole trick system. I dont know if you watched the FcBarcelona vs Shaktar Uefa supercup final where Pique did 2 headers to control then onto his knee and hoofed a crossfield kick not overly fancy but testament to his technique.

Then there's those instances that the ball sits up well and the opponent rushes to take ball off but a deft little flick over his head and in the opposite direction from which the opponent came is fairly simple but very effective.

 

[unbornchikkenvoices]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The trick system in FIFA wouyld be fantastic if it was a bit more instant to pull off and also if they cut the number of tricks you could perform.

I wanna know that I will actualy pull off a step over, every time I attempt it (im sure Zidane didnt accidentally pull off a roulette when trying to do a step-over- in real life)

in PES they need to change the skills animation so after a step-over, for example, you can change direction instantley in one fluid movement. (this is what a step over is uaually for) or atleast with high skill players a step-over should cause the defender to 'buy the dummy' giving you the space you wanted to create. prehaps defenders skill level should also include how likely they are to 'buy a dummy'

e.g skilled player performs stepover: Bramble = skinned, Nesta = brickwall.

 

[The_Knight]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's so ironic that probably the only part of FIFA the PES fans in here like, is something I hate.

I hate the trick-stick! It just doesn't feel natural after PES, it relies too much on a complicated movement that is difficult to get exactly right twice in a row IMO. I'd much prefer the PES system of old where I'd press down R1 (at least I think it was R1) and do a little fake/sidestep one way to fool the oncoming player. I could never do that in FIFA.

Well I think this is a testimony to FIFA's trick stick brilliance and balance. These tricks are very complicated and in real life you can see them once every 3-4 games in the Premier League, for instance. It would make a lot of sense for them to be as complicated as they are... When you pull it off, it's supposed to feel special... something you would save and show off in replays, just like the real thing.

 

[master_smurf]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

It's so ironic that probably the only part of FIFA the PES fans in here like, is something I hate.

I hate the trick-stick! It just doesn't feel natural after PES, it relies too much on a complicated movement that is difficult to get exactly right twice in a row IMO. I'd much prefer the PES system of old where I'd press down R1 (at least I think it was R1) and do a little fake/sidestep one way to fool the oncoming player. I could never do that in FIFA.

See - that goes to point of FIFA having a great feature implemented but the in game execution to replicate reality not being as slick as it should be.

I think that adds to the animation debate - FIFA has great animations for instances but is it really adding to the gameplay or fooling you into believing something new is occurring (eg. air play battles)

Anyway - not to break the PES-FIFA lovefest we have going - just musing.

 

[only1ronaldo]

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Trick stick amazing? Are you kiddin me? It's totally untuitive, basic tricks are complicated to pull off, and in match (tele cam) if your timing is slightly off you're losing the ball with simple challenge - it's not really rewarding, you have little advantage over defender whoever you're controlling. I don't feel I can cause real damage with Messi/Ronaldo/Ribery type of players and I haven't seen one player online who'd take advantage of their dribbling skill, apart from running on the wing to the corner flag haha. So after 500+ matches online in FIFA09 I can tell you this needs fixing.

The worst part of this system is that trick directions change depending on where you are (on the wing facing goal, going to the side etc) so you have to adjust everytime...and you have like 2 seconds max to start doing it or you're losing the ball

I really tried to master it in (mostly online) games, and yeah I do my stuff I got my dribbling patterns and some people can be left in dust, I can do wonders at right angle but still I don't feel I'm in control of everything.

Let's say I'm going from left to right and I want to do complicated mix of stepovers - IT'S CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE, I can do it on training be a pro camera or on te wing facing goal because it's like be a pro cam, otherwise it's simply too hard to do anything more complicated than some easy feints or Ronaldo chops.

Tricks really need to be more intuitive, if they stay the same in FIFA10 then it will be same pattern ridden trick-less "empty" game where you can't really dribble.

PES always kept it simple and allowed you to actually go past defenders with some effort, tricks are simple and not you don't really need them to go past someone ; it's one of the points that made the game more open style allowing more freedom on the pitch.

PES > FIFA dribbling/tricks wise, sorry no bonus