PES2010 discussion thread

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

PesFan owner wrote: "Been playing latest PES code all day, I have it here now, can't say anymore until the pan European embargo date, but lots of exciting news!"
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

drekkard said:
For those interested on how nets are done in a videogame I've written a VERY LARGE explanation (more or less accurate, as english is not my first, not even my third language and my knowledge is limited to small videogames and things I've developed during my life as a -average- programmer and development manager).

That explanation by itself is enough to understand why it makes no much sense to mocap a net.

Nets are not particle systems (explosions, fireworks, dripping water or little pieces of paper in the wind are treated as particles, you can look for a pretty nice and simple software called "particle illusions" to make up your mind on how they work), in fact are a runtime dynamic patch (or mesh) deformation. Unsure of the exact words in english because I know all this stuff in a mix of languages.

The idea is you have a kind of box consisting in deformable planes. One impact into the mesh affects a group of points and those points transmit part of the energy to the surrounding points and so on.

The key words are runtime, dynamic and mesh deformation anyway. To make it simple, imagine a recently washed blanket that you put to dry outside hanging of a rope. If you punch it, it will deform. Now let's translate that to a 3d plane in a game. You need to stablish a matrix in the plane, that matrix will be the base of all your calculations. The level of definition of this matrix will be key to achieve greater precision later. So, let's say the matrix is 100 rows and 60 columns (a rectangle shaped plane).

It's a plus if the matrix you create combines exactly with the net texture that is done by the art director, so the dots of the matrix are actually dots in the texture. But that can be tricky.

Now that we have a matrix in a plane that defines dots in 3d space, add to them forces and tensions, so when one point of the matrix moves, it translates part of the energy to its correlative points and drag them and so on for all the matrix. Thus, when the ball impacts in the plane, you have to consider:

- Which points are impacted by the ball.
- Which force is applied to the points.

Take notice that this points move in a 3d space, so there's a lot of trigonometry involved in all those, which make it costly to calculate.

Depending on the values of tension you have, the matrix will deform more or less and will react softer or harder.

Now, all this is great and theorically, with infinite processor capabilities, you could perfectly simulate any kind of net (in any shape and composed of any pattern: squares, hexagons, etc..).

But stressing the processor in a game is a luxury. So, programmers have to find a way to use less processor being more effective. One thing you can do to lessen the processor work is to diminish the number of dots, so make the matrix smaller. By doing this, you reduce the precision of the outcomes, and if the matrix has not enough definition, you get those outcomes where you can see the big triangle-shaped bits of the net warping the ball (and even clipping it). Besides, depending on the style of the net you may adjust the matrix and all the values until you find a good combination of all the factors.

So, you have to balance the matrix and the processor cost. But there's more. The physical recreation of forces and tensions also cost a lot of the processor, so you need to find a nice way of representing them with the minimum cost for the game. Here is where it doesn't matter how many people you put at work. You need a genius to do this effectively (we're talking about a mix of complex maths and complex gaming knowdlege) and achieve great results. It's not a matter of how much it costs, but of having the right person to do it and the time to spend on it. To make it clear, I know exactly how it works and how it's done, but I couldn't even drem on actually doing it, some very especial talent is needed. For example, finding a way to achieve the same result spending 5% less processor in every cycle can be bloody impossible.

And then think about the shadows casted by the net and other lightning / rendering elements that depend on this calculations every frame, though that's a thing that mostly is covered by the render engine.

Now try to imagine all this combined with the fact that in the game you don't have a plane, but a box and the corners have to behave slightly different and the dots near the posts have different tension than "free" dots.

You need good programmers to do this, and you know it's most probable that they prefer to use those good programmers on other key areas of the game, as ball physics, procedural animation, AI, etc... That's why it's relatively easy to develop different styles of nets, but the resources you will put in it would make other areas of the game suffer.

That said, there's one question left. Why Football Kingdom had such good nets in a old-gen console?

Part of it is because they had luck and the right guys did program that part.

But, at the risk of being impopular (or infamous), I always considered those nets were very pretty but not realistic at all. I've never seen nets like that in all my footballing life. Insted, the nets of Fifa seem to me the most realistic nets I've ever seen. Surely, they coulld achieve the "football kingdom" effect, but the way they go with the game, they prefer to have more "subtle" nets, and I like the idea. If you mess around in the Fifa arena, you will notice great great net dynamics there. In the game they're not that great, but that's because they use a kind of "lite" nets that cost less to the processor. In particular, take a look in the subtle ripples created in the Fifa arena, they're so realistic and satisfying!

The effect on football kingdom is overdone to achieve a stylish look. Hey, I agree it's pleasant and great, but it's not that realistic after all. And if you look closely at how they reacted, you'll see that the net reacted extremely softly and right to the ball impact, but generated almost no ripples to the res of the structure. That's the way they found to creat a good looking effect without affecting many dots in the matrix, thus sparing a lot of calculations. Hey, I also like it anyway!

In pes, the problem in the next gen has always been the ugly shape with sandbags. Take that out and we may discover pretty decent coding for the nets, though in pes 2009 I've seen quite ugly deformations "in the matrix" now and then.

Hope I've been clear and people likes this totally excessive post.
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Are you a software developer?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I develop multimedia projects and apps and some games here and there, nothing big, mostly in flash or java, some multiplayer projects, now preparing a quite interesting mmorpg (and confidential) flash-based. But have managed projects for 13 years. The concepts are always the same, difference is the dimension and scale of things (problems included). But enough to know that even beyond money, it's talent what makes a good game.

Sindii, when the nets are "resting" they don't use the processor, everything "activates" when it moves. A rigid body would consume a lot more of processor, because you would have a lot of objects with many faces and much more information to process that should be rendered, moved and you would have the same bottleneck. You can estimate a goal net would be made of thousands of objects if "modeled" with objects joined somehow. Plus, there's elasticity, you should be able to stretch the objects. What you describe would, in fact, be a real net while now they have textures projected in space.

It's easier to do it as they do now, having a kind of texture bump-mapped cut into pieces that form a mtarix and deforms and interact with the ball and stretching a texture is easy and low consuming.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

drekkard said:
I develop multimedia projects and apps and some games here and there, nothing big, mostly in flash or java, some multiplayer projects, now preparing a quite interesting mmorpg (and confidential) flash-based. But have managed projects for 13 years. The concepts are always the same, difference is the dimension and scale of things (problems included). But enough to know that even beyond money, it's talent what makes a good game.

Sindii, when the nets are "resting" they don't use the processor, everything "activates" when it moves. A rigid body would consume a lot more of processor, because you would have a lot of objects with many faces and much more information to process that should be rendered, moved and you would have the same bottleneck. You can estimate a goal net would be made of thousands of objects if "modeled" with objects joined somehow. Plus, there's elasticity, you should be able to stretch the objects. What you describe would, in fact, be a real net while now they have textures projected in space.

It's easier to do it as they do now, having a kind of texture bump-mapped cut into pieces that form a mtarix and deforms and interact with the ball and stretching a texture is easy and low consuming.
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cool. sounds like you have been at it for a very long time. im a software developer myself using j2me, j2se and Android
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The lack of communication between the Konami staff and the fans is laughable compared to how EA, especially Rutter, communicates and takes ideas from fans on a regular basis.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Aboutreika18 said:
The lack of communication between the Konami staff and the fans is laughable compared to how EA, especially Rutter, communicates and takes ideas from fans on a regular basis.
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If he would only implement some of them then EA would be on to something :LOL:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

FreMM said:
If he would only implement some of them then EA would be on to something :LOL:
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You mean as they have done already?:APPLAUD:
But this is off topic..

Looking forwards to the news, and I will be laughing if it is 360-movement or not. Can only pray they if it is, that they will reduce the speed even further and implent manual controls. Once you go manual, you'll never be able to go back..
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dusse said:
You mean as they have done already?:APPLAUD:
But this is off topic..

Looking forwards to the news, and I will be laughing if it is 360-movement or not. Can only pray they if it is, that they will reduce the speed even further and implent manual controls. Once you go manual, you'll never be able to go back..
Click to expand...
:WORSHIP:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

FreMM said:
WENBSSADAM
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Dammit I can imagine what he would say...."guys bad news....our announcement has to be pushed back due to the NDA......our relationship with Konami is so strong now and we don't want to strain those ties that myself and Suff have built up...blah, blah....."
I still admire how they have built up their reputation. Good or bad they are on everyones lips.

FreMM said:
If he would only implement some of them then EA would be on to something :LOL:
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:APPLAUD:

Yeah EA have done a good job of bringing themselves up beyond Konami's level...the trick is to keep it there. Gamers are a fickle bunch and if you drop the ball they seldom forget.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

zeemeister said:
Yeah EA have done a good job of bringing themselves up beyond Konami's level...the trick is to keep it there. Gamers are a fickle bunch and if you drop the ball they seldom forget.
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Ha ha now i see where ea are coming from with there oversized ball :P
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dusse said:
Oh, people seem to have forgot about PES 2008/2009 already.;)
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Why do you think that? I am more than sure that the people that genuinely like PES's good times are really frustrated with those poor efforts. I guess that is the main reason of high hopes towards PES2010: the desire of a real good and playable PES...
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Han said:
Is that just an assumption?
I cannot find any message from Adam where he said that.
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Hi han adam mentioned it in the podcast on wenb.on adams other site welovepes i have just seen this.(i hear the sound of backtracking methinks................Wednesday, 5 August 2009
New Embargo Date Gamescom?
I think so, it certainly points towards that.


This "pan-European" statement reminds me of something I deal with regarding work, and its a date that is set for everyone across the continent.


We had the same thing put on us last year, as when we played PES 2009 before Leipzig our NDA finished as the show started. Be warned though, last year we also had an extended embargo on game modes (like edit mode) so the same might be in place this year too.


Either way, it still means Gamescom will be the day the world ends. Or the day PES 2010 news/videos hit the internet. Same thing.
Posted by Adam at 22:42
Labels: gamescom
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Dusse said:
Once you go manual, you'll never be able to go back..
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Oh trust me, we will, and have. Just like 90% of Fifa players probably did when they realised it doesnt quite work.

Also, like we have said many, many times. The option of fully manual controls takes away for the most part the real need to have any statistical individualism players may have, or may not, depending on which game you prefer.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Putuco Malo said:
Why do you think that? I am more than sure that the people that genuinely like PES's good times are really frustrated with those poor efforts. I guess that is the main reason of high hopes towards PES2010: the desire of a real good and playable PES...
Click to expand...

Why I think that? Well, mostly becuase a lot of people is expecting PES2008 to be a miracle. I have yet to see a game changing that much by one year of development.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jimmy G-Force said:
Oh trust me, we will, and have. Just like 90% of Fifa players probably did when they realised it doesnt quite work.

Also, like we have said many, many times. The option of fully manual controls takes away for the most part the real need to have any statistical individualism players may have, or may not, depending on which game you prefer.
Click to expand...

99,99% percent have never, ever tried manual and 99,8% don't even know what settings they use.:BYE:
 
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