PES2010 discussion thread

Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

mjsmith2k said:
I think it's funny how you're writing the game off already and you haven't even seen any gameplay footage or even played the demo.

What will be even funnier will be if it turns out to be a great game and you have to eat your words :)). The same goes for everyone.
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I hyped up, imported and devoured every WE/PES game for about 6 years. Some years the only difference was a tweak in falling over animation.

The bottom line is that the Konami have cried wolf for 3/4 years now, and accomplished nothing. If it's a great game, then happy days, I'll buy it and love it. But what annoys me is the WENB/Konami 'PR' where they claim a great revelatio nis just around the corner...but it never is..
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

YoungGun_UK said:
I don't agree with them HAVING to put manual passing for 360 movement to work Drekkard. Yes it would please me and many other people who use it for FIFA but with FIFA 10 90% of the community will play with Assisted passing and the 360 dribbling with only 9% on Semi and 1% on Manual. If it broke the game playing with Assisted passing EA couldn't do it either.

Also I remember earlier (maybe a month back?) Their was a somewhat "Fake" list that came out but apparantly some of them were true and some weren't. Did that have 360 degree movement on their?
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They have to change the shooting and passing routines if they add 360, really I can't see the game with 360 and passing and shooting in its current form, would feel like a kind of frankenstein to me. Maybe that's why adam didn't see it necessary (how can someone despise the idea of freedom of movement? is this guy insane?), but I think it really is and some more refined manual controls should be implemented to take full advantage of it. I would prefer them to do it differently than EA, try something else in the way of manual controls, so we end up with 2 different games WITH some DEPTH at controls.

About the fake list: it was totally fake, they included such stupid things a "mocapping nets and the ball" which is odd. Of course they put 360 degrees, because any fan that took the time to write a wishlist would put this kind of things in the list, 360º being a must because EA had already said it was in fifa, so the fanboy put it in the first place.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I was expecting to see hundreds of new posts enthusing about the news..................still not announced!!!

It has to be 360............nothing else comes near all the clues;)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

YoungGun_UK said:
Also I remember earlier (maybe a month back?) Their was a somewhat "Fake" list that came out but apparantly some of them were true and some weren't. Did that have 360 degree movement on their?
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BillyBoy said:
Yeah I think it did.
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Nick Cave said:
Yeah good point, they dismissed it out of hand, maybe it had more to it than Konami wanted out so rubbished it big time...
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http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1672090&postcount=1564

Guys, lets keep this list saved and wait til the announcements in gamescom. Who knows, maybe it wasn't fake?
 
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Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I would be more than content with a few small things that have been missing for a decade...like decent penalties.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Just remember that list is still labeled "FAKE". So don't take everything as gospel. I only posted it again because the guys said 360 was mentioned in it. So if 360 happens to really be in, then it might be just a possibility that other things from that list can be true. Don't rocket your hopes up though ;)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

YoungGun_UK said:
I don't agree with them HAVING to put manual passing for 360 movement to work Drekkard. Yes it would please me and many other people who use it for FIFA but with FIFA 10 90% of the community will play with Assisted passing and the 360 dribbling with only 9% on Semi and 1% on Manual. If it broke the game playing with Assisted passing EA couldn't do it either.
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I agree, manual controls aren't a concern for the vast majority that play PES and Fifa but 360 dribbling would make a massive difference regardless of how many assists you use.

WEtongelre said:
"Even the nets are motion captured" :SHOCK::WORSHIP:
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: how the fuck do you motion capture a net!?
:?

Surely nets are programmed as particles or whatever it's called? (Cue Drekkard):COAT:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The one thing that should be implementing euphoria imo is nets.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Lami said:
Just remember that list is still labeled "FAKE". So don't take everything as gospel. I only posted it again because the guys said 360 was mentioned in it. So if 360 happens to really be in, then it might be just a possibility that other things from that list can be true. Don't rocket your hopes up though ;)
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More and more of that list turn out to be true, it seems... interesting :)
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Seriously, you guys are hilarious.:APPLAUD:

Mo-capping the nets is the most stupid thing I've ever heard and anyone that even knows a bit what they are talking about are laughing with me.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
I agree, manual controls aren't a concern for the vast majority that play PES and Fifa but 360 dribbling would make a massive difference regardless of how many assists you use.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: how the fuck do you motion capture a net!?
:?

Surely nets are programmed as particles or whatever it's called? (Cue Drekkard):COAT:
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I have no idea too. Surely they know what they're doing...
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

if its not 360 movement or motion capture...then its gotta be a punch-up mode...where after a slide tackle, if the start and select button are pressed it will go into a mode like tekken and u'll be able to knock out players or even do a fatality to injure the players!!:GSCARF:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I think what I meant to say was 'why' would they motion capture the nets? It doesn't make sense as a net can move in infinite ways depending on how the ball hits them and how powerful. It's not something motion capture would be used for.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Professor Nutmeg said:
It's something technical and something that'll supposedly benefit 'everybody.' So you have to think along those lines. This is why i don't think it's anything to do with 'online' or a licensed league/team etc.
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Didnt that rag (the sun) article say the other day that konami were dropping their servers and using sony's and someone elses servers. Maybe this is the big news .Hopefully not though. Dont get me wrong it is good news but after all the excitement building it would seem like a letdown.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Jamezinho said:
I think what I meant to say was 'why' would they motion capture the nets? It doesn't make sense as a net can move in infinite ways depending on how the ball hits them and how powerful. It's not something motion capture would be used for.
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But, if its just as simple as that, then why do nets in Football Kingdom behave differently than PES's?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Lami said:
But, if its just as simple as that, then why do nets in Football Kingdom behave differently than PES's?
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Of course you can do them in different ways(everything is), but to mo-capping them is not any solution. Firstly it's up to personal taste, and secondly it might not be the of the highest importance when making a game. Your comment is like wondering why the running animation in GTA IV looks better than the one in Saints Row..
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

I'm sure it must be Mo-Capped lacers of the shoes with 360° movement of the ball! :PIG:

Seriously I think everything that makes the game feel more realistic is a welcome improvement! Who cares if better animated nets or balls are the result of a ridiculous Mo-Cap session or just well programmed, if the result looks great, it's good for us!:SMUG:
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Very interesting reading that list again. The way its written may be down to the poster(mo-capping the net etc) but maybe he the information could be correct somewhat.

PES6 Online/No Konami ID (Check)
New animations (Waiting on)
Graphics/Lighting redone (Check)
360 Movement (Waiting on)
Anfield Licensed (Check)
ML changes (From the list I think they have?)

All pretty likely and the rest can possibly be done? I've been warped back into the PES hype it seems.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

By the way, how does the animation of a ball look like ???
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They might simply mean "animate" as in "movement" (animate = come to life, move), though if they use those words interchangably in the context of videogames they should be shot in the face point blank, and also maybe considered not a trustworthy source for video game commentary and tidbits?
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

The nets in PES are pretty bad. The actual movement is not bad but they are all the fucking same at every ground, which is way, way off reality.

I find it just bloody amazing how PC lovers can patch the nets but a whole year of develooment time cannot find time to make these little changes.

I think this year that Konami have maybe changed the nets and mickey mouse gloves in the past couple of months as part of "listening to the community" effort.

Amazing how alot of that, once laughable list could actually be true.

I'm so intrigued to see this thing in full flow now its killing me.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Leo said:
Of course you can do them in different ways(everything is), but to mo-capping them is not any solution. Firstly it's up to personal taste, and secondly it might not be the of the highest importance when making a game. Your comment is like wondering why the running animation in GTA IV looks better than the one in Saints Row..
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Just wondering because I've no idea how all this animation programming works tbh.
 
Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

For those interested on how nets are done in a videogame I've written a VERY LARGE explanation (more or less accurate, as english is not my first, not even my third language and my knowledge is limited to small videogames and things I've developed during my life as a -average- programmer and development manager).

That explanation by itself is enough to understand why it makes no much sense to mocap a net.

Nets are not particle systems (explosions, fireworks, dripping water or little pieces of paper in the wind are treated as particles, you can look for a pretty nice and simple software called "particle illusions" to make up your mind on how they work), in fact are a runtime dynamic patch (or mesh) deformation. Unsure of the exact words in english because I know all this stuff in a mix of languages.

The idea is you have a kind of box consisting in deformable planes. One impact into the mesh affects a group of points and those points transmit part of the energy to the surrounding points and so on.

The key words are runtime, dynamic and mesh deformation anyway. To make it simple, imagine a recently washed blanket that you put to dry outside hanging of a rope. If you punch it, it will deform. Now let's translate that to a 3d plane in a game. You need to stablish a matrix in the plane, that matrix will be the base of all your calculations. The level of definition of this matrix will be key to achieve greater precision later. So, let's say the matrix is 100 rows and 60 columns (a rectangle shaped plane).

It's a plus if the matrix you create combines exactly with the net texture that is done by the art director, so the dots of the matrix are actually dots in the texture. But that can be tricky.

Now that we have a matrix in a plane that defines dots in 3d space, add to them forces and tensions, so when one point of the matrix moves, it translates part of the energy to its correlative points and drag them and so on for all the matrix. Thus, when the ball impacts in the plane, you have to consider:

- Which points are impacted by the ball.
- Which force is applied to the points.

Take notice that this points move in a 3d space, so there's a lot of trigonometry involved in all those, which make it costly to calculate.

Depending on the values of tension you have, the matrix will deform more or less and will react softer or harder.

Now, all this is great and theorically, with infinite processor capabilities, you could perfectly simulate any kind of net (in any shape and composed of any pattern: squares, hexagons, etc..).

But stressing the processor in a game is a luxury. So, programmers have to find a way to use less processor being more effective. One thing you can do to lessen the processor work is to diminish the number of dots, so make the matrix smaller. By doing this, you reduce the precision of the outcomes, and if the matrix has not enough definition, you get those outcomes where you can see the big triangle-shaped bits of the net warping the ball (and even clipping it). Besides, depending on the style of the net you may adjust the matrix and all the values until you find a good combination of all the factors.

So, you have to balance the matrix and the processor cost. But there's more. The physical recreation of forces and tensions also cost a lot of the processor, so you need to find a nice way of representing them with the minimum cost for the game. Here is where it doesn't matter how many people you put at work. You need a genius to do this effectively (we're talking about a mix of complex maths and complex gaming knowdlege) and achieve great results. It's not a matter of how much it costs, but of having the right person to do it and the time to spend on it. To make it clear, I know exactly how it works and how it's done, but I couldn't even drem on actually doing it, some very especial talent is needed. For example, finding a way to achieve the same result spending 5% less processor in every cycle can be bloody impossible.

And then think about the shadows casted by the net and other lightning / rendering elements that depend on this calculations every frame, though that's a thing that mostly is covered by the render engine.

Now try to imagine all this combined with the fact that in the game you don't have a plane, but a box and the corners have to behave slightly different and the dots near the posts have different tension than "free" dots.

You need good programmers to do this, and you know it's most probable that they prefer to use those good programmers on other key areas of the game, as ball physics, procedural animation, AI, etc... That's why it's relatively easy to develop different styles of nets, but the resources you will put in it would make other areas of the game suffer.

That said, there's one question left. Why Football Kingdom had such good nets in a old-gen console?

Part of it is because they had luck and the right guys did program that part.

But, at the risk of being impopular (or infamous), I always considered those nets were very pretty but not realistic at all. I've never seen nets like that in all my footballing life. Insted, the nets of Fifa seem to me the most realistic nets I've ever seen. Surely, they coulld achieve the "football kingdom" effect, but the way they go with the game, they prefer to have more "subtle" nets, and I like the idea. If you mess around in the Fifa arena, you will notice great great net dynamics there. In the game they're not that great, but that's because they use a kind of "lite" nets that cost less to the processor. In particular, take a look in the subtle ripples created in the Fifa arena, they're so realistic and satisfying!

The effect on football kingdom is overdone to achieve a stylish look. Hey, I agree it's pleasant and great, but it's not that realistic after all. And if you look closely at how they reacted, you'll see that the net reacted extremely softly and right to the ball impact, but generated almost no ripples to the res of the structure. That's the way they found to creat a good looking effect without affecting many dots in the matrix, thus sparing a lot of calculations. Hey, I also like it anyway!

In pes, the problem in the next gen has always been the ugly shape with sandbags. Take that out and we may discover pretty decent coding for the nets, though in pes 2009 I've seen quite ugly deformations "in the matrix" now and then.

Hope I've been clear and people likes this totally excessive post.
 
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Re: PES2010 News & Rumours thread

Nice post Drekkard but...why not just make the nets from rigid bodies, linked by joints using any physics engine available, simple really. Tweak as needed, jobs a good un.

The processor wouldn't really use any cycles until the ball actually hit the net. The bodies would just sleep until contact. Same thing with rendering of the nets, render engine would take care of that stuff.

Just my 2cents as usual, nice to know we got other guys who know about the ins n outs of certain things.
 
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