PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

Chris Davies said:
Average Joe doesn't apply any kind of critique to the game, it's "just a game" and with that mentality, you'd rather have the one that looks right. Gameplay isn't a massive factor.
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This is so true.
Nowadays it is all about online, and about dominating / shaming / humiliating the opponent.
And they do not care how it is done.

We have a tv program called e-league in which Fifa 18 is played. The player represent their Eredivisie teams (who sponsor them or even pay them a salary, i'm not sure).
I watched it once but couldn't bare it anymore after 5 mins. So fucking fast, zillions of tricks. It had really nothing to do with football, might as well have been pong.
 
I’ve played pretty much every football game since the very first, World Cup by Anco on the ZX Spectrum.

But Actua Soccer by Gremlin Graphics always remains fond to me, and in no small part to the amazing commentary by probably my favourite football commentator of all-time, Barry Davies. Even listening to this clip makes you realise how much better it was than today’s PES 18 dross.

P.S. My all-time favourite all-round commentator for boxing and football- Ian Darke. Although Clive Tyldsley is right up there with the very best ever, tops Motson and Tyler for me.

 
tobi said:
I want Konami to implement their ideas, I prefer their interpretation of football. This is why I'm here and why I prefer it to the other game. However, I also don't want them to be reactive and be easily influenced by loud noises.
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Don't have to be worried, mate.
Yes, I believe Konamees;)(hi, there) have been here monitoring us, as they must have been curious of the responses to their product, from those who have been here Evo-web, the one of the biggest PES community in the world.

However we don't need to be compromised by them, we, by ourselves don't have to limit our topic in fear of them to add something to, or remove something from the game.
I'm afraid they can't even do those things.(Can you;), there?) as they actually are just messengers. Nobody knows what will they deliver to their boss, and only god knows whether the delivered messages will be considered or will be thrown to bin.
So let it be, don't bother too seriously.

Anyone can talk about anything as far as it's not an off-topic or a trolling. On the other hand, another one can oppose it as well. That's the good way how we build up a discussion, while we avoid separating people into by this game and that game, and insulting those who have different opinions.
 
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papinho81 said:
I think it is not a matter of being arcade or sim but rather a matter of being accessible to the mass. As much as I would love devs to give more emphasis on simulation type of game, I understand that many potential buyers, who are casual players only, might have troubles/difficulty with a more simulation game. So arcade is an easier road for devs to have this crowd buying the game even if they only play it for a couple of handfull days during the year. From the devs perspective, the problem is not how long will you play the game, but will you buy it.
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Isn't the real money maker in E-Sports the view rates? That's as important as selling copies of the game to the masses. 3-4 years ago they were already filling stadium sized arenas for games like League of Legends etc. I just think sports titles are very behind in terms of traction.

And I mean, other competitive E-Sports involves a higher degree of difficulty (and dare I say, intelligence), than what we have in both PES and FIFA official leagues of 5 minute games and end-to-end button smashing. That's just not ideal for growing a dedicated audience looking into the future.

I've always thought if you need a market incentive to create a sim game, detailed and thoughtful enough that people would actually care to watch, then E-Sports could just be the right platform and opportunity.

But then the correct way to do this would actually be 11v11, so I don't know..lol
 
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Rodchenko said:
RaceRoom Racing Experience could be a model. They give away the engine and a few cars and three tracks for free, everything else you have to pay for (additional cars, tracks, series etc.) but it's usually at a price point that you would be willing to shell out regularly. There is a mix of licensed and fantasy content but in general everything is of a quite high quality and fairly up to date (which is important).

Adopted to Konami this would mean: PES would become more of a platform rather than a mere game and existing content would be sliced up and sold in packages. Advantage: Separate teams could more neatly focus on separate things. One could continuously improve the core (gameplay, animation, physics etc), others could merely focus on content. Those could even be external teams or community members who, for a small license fee, would finally be able to make some money of their hard work. Similar to flight simulators there would be central store that would be continuously updated ideally increasing a steady stream of cash. If they'd find the sweet spot for pricing (i.e. teams 2.99, top-teams 3.99, stadia 1.99, series 6.99, CL season 9.99 just as an example), they could in the end make more revenue from a single user than selling the whole package once a year, because as a fan I would be always on the look out for rebates or things I would like to add to my collection.

RaceRoom also shows, that this doesn't necessarily mean a lack in quality either. Physics are top notch, AI is adaptable and convincing, graphics and presentation for a DX9 game still quite decent, sound is excellent. It is considered highly among hardcore simmers and rookies alike and the developers (a Swedish team) are continuously publishing new content.

Now, given that the PES team is still predominantly Japanese, they will likely not do any of these (Western) things, but in general I think the day and age of an 'all inclusive' package once a year, is a business model on the decline.
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Great idea, very intriguing.
I would really like this.

One of the updates could be the yearly rosters and the core team could work on gameplay updates considered as 'new' games. That way time would be less important and there would be less need to 'publish' an unfinished product.

I also like the user generated content. PES has a tradition of kitmakers and even people who create, players, teams and leagues. Konami never has done something with the community generated content. That would be great.

Most people are not interested in the Belgian league but if a Belgian community member would create Belgian teams, then people interested could buy this league ( license issue, i know, but lets forget this for the sake of argument).

The national team of Nepal? Why not...
 
gerd said:
Great idea, very intriguing.
I would really like this.

One of the updates could be the yearly rosters and the core team could work on gameplay updates considered as 'new' games. That way time would be less important and there would be less need to 'publish' an unfinished product.

I also like the user generated content. PES has a tradition of kitmakers and even people who create, players, teams and leagues. Konami never has done something with the community generated content. That would be great.

Most people are not interested in the Belgian league but if a Belgian community member would create Belgian teams, then people interested could buy this league ( license issue, i know, but lets forget this for the sake of argument).

The national team of Nepal? Why not...
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Agree for the most , but i think that just unlocking more leagues (also fake doens't care) to have a more complete scenario could be more simple for KONAMI.
And about @Rodchenko idea also will be nice, but i think that in this way all the modding community could only disappear, Konami would be forced to lock all their additional contents that mean that no one should be able to open them --> result : we can only play with Konami DLC and Add-on ,not a great deal IMO.
 
Been mentioned before but the new Ashes Cricket game and the previous Don Bradman cricket games by Big Ant have a great way of getting round lack of licenses called The Academy. Basically a community resource where people can create, upload / download a stack of user-created content. Players, teams, stadiums, bats... Really well implemented and it's cross-platform too - so something created on the PC version can be used by an Xbox user etc. If a relatively small developer can manage something like that then surely Konami could ? As an Xbox user it's tough not being able to download an option file to sort the lack of licenses on PES.
 
If we really are heading towards the full E-Sports model (God please, please please no), where all the efforts are for the online mode, you really must damn hope that we'll have an highly customization of the ia game, way higher than sliders, or else the possibility of having the generic league of legends stupid bots for the single, or even just a bland "training" arena and that's all, in a couple of years won't be as absurd as you would think it is by now.
 
kilay said:
Agree for the most , but i think that just unlocking more leagues (also fake doens't care) to have a more complete scenario could be more simple for KONAMI.
And about @Rodchenko idea also will be nice, but i think that in this way all the modding community could only disappear, Konami would be forced to lock all their additional contents that mean that no one should be able to open them --> result : we can only play with Konami DLC and Add-on ,not a great deal IMO.
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In this particular case, yes, because engine and content is published by the same company in a walled garden scenario. There are, however, many examples where a more hybrid approach is applied. Assetto Corsa, to stay within the racing genre as an example, would be one such example where the developer delivers the engine and additional payware packages while the game is still highly moddable and a community favorite offering tons of free content but also assets that are sold at a comparatively moderat price point (like for example these guys: http://racesimstudio.com).

I don't claim to have thought this through. I am not a business person and I don't know how viable and sustainable such scenarios are. I guess at the beginning of my thoughts was the question how Konami could instigate improvements in their engine much quicker than at the rate they have been doing it over the last years. One answer would be to try to offload work that isn't directly connected to their core – the engine and the underlying stats and logics – as there is already so much quality stuff out there, that they could leverage if they were a bit more open, innovative and agile.

Another reason why they will probably never do this, however, are the possible licensing/litigation issues that would come with such scenarios.
 
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sweetmagee said:
Been mentioned before but the new Ashes Cricket game and the previous Don Bradman cricket games by Big Ant have a great way of getting round lack of licenses called The Academy. Basically a community resource where people can create, upload / download a stack of user-created content. Players, teams, stadiums, bats... Really well implemented and it's cross-platform too - so something created on the PC version can be used by an Xbox user etc. If a relatively small developer can manage something like that then surely Konami could ? As an Xbox user it's tough not being able to download an option file to sort the lack of licenses on PES.
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Not sure on the proper legal situation here. Probably not an issue for Big Ant because the studio is quite small and Cricket is more of niche sport (is there a contending developer?).

I would expect EA to cause Konami a lot of pain if the latter opened up their game to use 'licensed' community assets. Would be an extremely funny way, though, to beat EA on the licensing front ;)
 
I think that Konami need to go back to their roots of ISS. By that I mean that they need to create just the best clubs of Europe (approx. 40/50) and some South American (and Internationals of course). Then they would be able to create much better team and player I.D. (like before), because they will be focused on less teams and players. This sum of teams is just too much for them (and EA too). ISS had only the best teams, and everybody were playing it because of the great gameplay. So I wouldn't mind play Master league with two/three leagues with best teams like on ISS before 18 years.
 
M2015 said:
I think that Konami need to go back to their roots of ISS. By that I mean that they need to create just the best clubs of Europe (approx. 40/50) and some South American (and Internationals of course). Then they would be able to create much better team and player I.D. (like before), because they will be focused on less teams and players. This sum of teams is just too much for them (and EA too). ISS had only the best teams, and everybody were playing it because of the great gameplay. So I wouldn't mind play Master league with two/three leagues with best teams like on ISS before 18 years.
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This is not something that would work. Even i wouldn't manage to play a game with so few teams, even if it had the best gameplay ever. Pes sales would totally collapse unless they would sell it at like 20 euros.
 
Ameppe said:
This is not something that would work. Even i wouldn't manage to play a game with so few teams, even if it had the best gameplay ever. Pes sales would totally collapse unless they would sell it at like 20 euros.
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Does that assume that people buy the game because they support a certain team or league that wouldn't be present? If so, I mean, the game is selling now despite having so few licenses (and the majority won't know what an option file is, let alone have a computer, a USB stick and the ability to Google instructions, let ALONE find the right websites and navigate past all of the ones laden with pop-ups and viruses).

(Just playing devil's advocate - I don't personally think there would be a gameplay improvement with less teams, the same blanket rules would apply.)
 
I agree with you Chris that lesser teams would not mean more focus on gameplay.
We as fans should try to persuade Konami to break the one year cycle.
I'm not good at this, but i will try to explain.

I will take the current game as a bad example.

Adam and Konami say that PES2018 is the first game in a 3 year cyclus (cycle?).
Well the first year we pay a certain amount of money for the basic game (perhaps with in it's basic form only two or thre leagues). If you won't more content (teams), you pay more.

The second year, you get updated rosters (perhaps for a small amount of money) and updated gameplay (and that need not necessarly to be in september, but could be december - gives developers more time) for a bigger amount of money and so one. Basically you buy one "physical, game on disc that is the basis, the fundament for a cycle of 3 years.

There are two sorts of updates:
1.teams and players
2. gameplay improvements

So Konami has two different
teams that work on the game: a big team for the gameplay and a samller for the roster updates and extra teams/leagues/players.

You pay for example 50 euro's for the core game with the disc
10 extra euro's for extra teams
20 Euro's for a roster update
40 euro's for gameplay improvements.

Buying the the core game on disc is some sort of subscription. Konami promises you a core package and you get that core package for 50 euro's no matter how many updates they need to present us with a decent game.

THe year after they can 'expand' the gameplay and so on...

This is perhaps not realistic, but i had fun thinking about it.
 
PES needs to focus on its roots where stats are clearly evident in how players pass and how successfully, pace, and shooting. The problem now is that it is just too streamlined and seeminly 9/10 a defender can hit a ping on target in the same way a striker can.

If this was implemented and a new shooting system and problems with fouls, defensive lines etc then there would not be much of an issue.
I get people like Adam and Asim need to tow company line, but to deflect that such problems exist is ridiculous and insulting to the core group of PES fans who have been around for over 15 years.
 
martyl2 said:
I get people like Adam and Asim need to tow company line, but to deflect that such problems exist is ridiculous and insulting to the core group of PES fans who have been around for over 15 years.
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In Adam's defence, he reached out over the video review I put together* and said that he was shocked that altering all the player's attributes made no difference to the success of the AI's passing, shooting etc. (I edited Man City's players to have the minimum - 40 - for every attribute, and they still passed the ball around like superstars on Top Player / Superstar). He said it was something he'd discuss in Japan - what that means exactly, who knows.

*Which I was sort of hoping he wouldn't see to be honest - we've known each other for a long time and I felt like he'd feel a bit stabbed-in-the back by it - but thankfully he took it as fair constructive criticism, even if he didn't agree with everything...
 
You did a great job, Chris. really hope that it makes the Japanese team think about gameplay.
Despite all the bickering, this community can do great things.

Thanks, even if it would change nothing, you tried something constructive!
 
Chris Davies said:
In Adam's defence, he reached out over the video review I put together* and said that he was shocked that altering all the player's attributes made no difference to the success of the AI's passing, shooting etc. (I edited Man City's players to have the minimum - 40 - for every attribute, and they still passed the ball around like superstars on Top Player / Superstar). He said it was something he'd discuss in Japan - what that means exactly, who knows.

*Which I was sort of hoping he wouldn't see to be honest - we've known each other for a long time and I felt like he'd feel a bit stabbed-in-the back by it - but thankfully he took it as fair constructive criticism, even if he didn't agree with everything...
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omg finally somebody shown Konami what they have done with individuality
 
Chris Davies said:
In Adam's defence, he reached out over the video review I put together* and said that he was shocked that altering all the player's attributes made no difference to the success of the AI's passing, shooting etc. (I edited Man City's players to have the minimum - 40 - for every attribute, and they still passed the ball around like superstars on Top Player / Superstar). He said it was something he'd discuss in Japan - what that means exactly, who knows.

*Which I was sort of hoping he wouldn't see to be honest - we've known each other for a long time and I felt like he'd feel a bit stabbed-in-the back by it - but thankfully he took it as fair constructive criticism, even if he didn't agree with everything...
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You shouldn't feel bad. Konami has always been very obscure about their processes, motivations, and methodologies. It should imo actually be Adam's job to confront them with the things you brought up in your review and instill in them a bit more of an 'open culture' which is an essential part of customer loyalty these days. So, thanks for doing this. Let's hope it reverberates in some way.
 
Chris Davies said:
In Adam's defence, he reached out over the video review I put together* and said that he was shocked that altering all the player's attributes made no difference to the success of the AI's passing, shooting etc. (I edited Man City's players to have the minimum - 40 - for every attribute, and they still passed the ball around like superstars on Top Player / Superstar). He said it was something he'd discuss in Japan - what that means exactly, who knows.

*Which I was sort of hoping he wouldn't see to be honest - we've known each other for a long time and I felt like he'd feel a bit stabbed-in-the back by it - but thankfully he took it as fair constructive criticism, even if he didn't agree with everything...
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Did you ever check up on him again on that topic?.
I mean, weren't you curious after a few months whether he did talk about it with the people at Tokio and what they were going to do about it (IF anything at all)?. Or at least just to know why did they ever implement something like that
 
Adam seems like too much of a yes-man for his increased presence to have much, if any, positive impact on the progression of the series.

I'm tired of his shtick in trying to hype the game, and his interactions with people on Twitter are laughably unprofessional. Arrogant, condescending and incapable of handling constructive criticism from most people, seems trigger-happy in just blocking people as well.

Seems like he's got where he is by sucking up to the right people, saying the things they want him to say, not by actually being good at his job and a force for good for the franchise.

Someone like CD would be far better for the series in that position imo...
 
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His methodologies in terms of handling criticism etc may be questionable to some but I suppose the dynamic shifts greatly when you start working for Konami making it difficult to be brutally honest and openly critical of parts of the game. At the end of the day his job is to hype the game and address concerns, but not to the level of saying this 'part is shit' etc etc...I respect the man who utilised his passion for PES to make a full time career out of it. The more popular or known you get the more you are open to hate I suppose.
 
In all honesty, the role of a marketer is to get people to get hyped to the point of buying the product. Adam did his job.

The problem is KONAMI doesn't approach their PES game the way most companies do. There is no beta testing, no community of gamers or well known YouTubers, there is just E3 unveiling and then these events at partnered sites. That's not the same as giving someone a month or two access, and opening a forum specifically for those beta testers.

I was a beta tester for The Golf Club 2 by HB Studios. Without getting into detail, they did things right and they listened to feedback by allowing forum feedback. Gave us plenty of time to test and work out issues that were provided with different versions.

I feel like KONAMI approach PES with too much pride - and it's to a fault. They feel like the PES purist mentality is enough to grab onto nostalgia's sake and feel like they don't need help. The issue is they come back, 3 months down the road, and ask for the feedback. Makes you feel like you're not just a consumer, but you're also part of their late QC team.

They need to either A) sit in a dark room, with PES 19, and turn off the internet, so they don't get any input and CREATE THEIR GAME; or B) Open up the Beta Testing for those influential in the community, that can approach the game from multiple sides, arcade, sim, online, p1vp2, MyClub...the works.
 
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