PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

rojofa said:
http://www.pcgamer.com/revenue-from-pc-free-to-play-microtransactions-has-doubled-since-2012/

"Microtransactions will generate $22bn of revenue in 2017, compared to $8bn from full game purchases."

That's where the money is... Wouldn't surprise me to see PES/FIFA go more F2P with more microtransactions. Want to play a season of ML? That'll be a fiver...

They only need to get a small number of whales in the door who will throw £100s/1000s at them to make something far more profitable than it would otherwise be from simply selling more copies based on the quality of the product alone.

They're clearly funnelling people towards MyClub; shoving news/promotions about it in your face when you boot the game, giving "GP" rewards for everything, showing the currencies in the corner of the screen... There's loads of stuff to keep reminding you to play that toxic game mode - it's become more prevalent each year and changes like that are bound to make them more money than they would get from making significant AI or game mode improvements.

They even released MyClub as a F2P, "PES Lite"...
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yeah, it makes me wonder if we will ever see great AI again.
 
elfie said:
I agree with you, especially about the part that it has to do with the age we were and time we lived in.
I also sound like an old man, but then again i am an old man so i'm allowed to sounds like one, but times have indeed changed. Game development seems to have more "earn lots of money" focus and less love.
It is something that i see in business life as well.

That being said, MLB the show (sorry for again bringing up this baseball game that probably nobody ever plays) is an exeption.
It's released every year, improved upon every year and the devs actively participate on the operation sports forum.
They add tons of stuff without taking away other stuff.
So, they change something in the controls, but always leave you the option to play it in the old way.

But gameplay wise, that game has evolved year after year. The leaps have become less big but still they manage to improve it year to year. And even though i have fond love and memories for the old baseball games i played, there is absolutely NO WAY i every want to go back to them, simply because this game is so much better.

So....it is possible, and it can be done.

But...despite all the above they get lots of shit and negativaty thrown at them by the users who are angry that their favorite teams away jersey is just a tiny bit off color.
It's not easy being a game developer, having management push you to realease a yearly game to earn tons of money on one side, and angry forum fans giving you shit on the other side.
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but your talking about a first party developer Sony vs a 3rd party developer like konami.
Sony makes games to sell there console so they need be high quality.
Konami and EA just make games for money.
if Sony made a football game, well i guess PES would be no more, probably why we don't see it. Japanese companies working together.
 
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If this keeps following this route, I can only think that we´re closer to the end of videogames as we know it. It´s a global thing right now, not only soccer games do it. I only care for offline gaming, and I can´t stop thinking I´m like a really old dinossaur, close to extinction... I really hope they keep pushing for better AI on games and offline modes, but the future doesn´t look promising.
 
Bond!JamesBond! said:
but your talking about a first party developer Sony vs a 3rd party developer like konami.
Sony makes games to sell there console so they need be high quality.
Konami and EA just make games for money.
if Sony made a football game, well i guess PES would be no more, probably why we don't see it. Japanese companies working together.
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True, i didn’t think of that.
 
xicpanad said:
If this keeps following this route, I can only think that we´re closer to the end of videogames as we know it. It´s a global thing right now, not only soccer games do it. I only care for offline gaming, and I can´t stop thinking I´m like a really old dinossaur, close to extinction... I really hope they keep pushing for better AI on games and offline modes, but the future doesn´t look promising.
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Soccer? What's soccer?
Oh you mean football! :P
 
Ameppe said:
That is really on Superstar against CPU? I can assure you that playing Master League on Superstar against CPU they are never that stupid. That to me seems like Professional at most.

I play at 0 speed. CPU defense has positional issues, it's too rigid etc, but it's not that bad.

I think the question we should ask is: does playing as Mertens or controlling him compared to Dzeko (eg) feels different? I think it's extremely noticeable, not just the speed, but also the acceleration, the weight of the player when you turn, the little flick you can do with Mertens that are impossible to do with Dzeko, the much more physical strenght by Dzeko and that mighty headers. Individuality is still there and it's very prominent.

Koulibaly in defence is a beast, and you can tell that because his physical strenght and ability to gain ball control compared to other Napoli defenders is so noticeable it would be foolish to say individuality is not there. Many of the specific traits of players are also special abilities, not anymore in stats but still very important. Special abilities also distinguish one player from the other.
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I wish it weren't, but it was. Happens a lot more when you get past that midfield. The good thing about Superstar is that the CPU is fairly aggressive, regardless of tactics, so their attention to the ball defensively is a bit more honed in. That's the perfect test though to isolate that animation. It's been that way for a while now, but PES 2010 is what comes to mind the most. It's just one of those things that makes you stop and think..."That was a bit too easy..."

Nature of the beast though, once you see it, it's hard not to unsee it. Like I said, the consistency is not as common on Superstar, but it is interesting that there are no player abilities/styles/com styles that control this behavior.

I like your description of individuality. I also believe that a lot of that on-the-ball area has been a big focus this year, maybe sometimes to a fault because off-the-ball has needed work since day 1. I feel like they listened a bit as the issue I had with the SB not committing to the flank defensively was 90% fixed in the gameplay patch.
 
zeemeister said:
State of the nation here Jimmy. I stopped posting videos here ages ago. This place has become about picking apart pes rather than being constructive we make shit up now about what's wrong with PES just to fit our own agendas.

Dare you call it out you will get labelled. I joined a pes site because I enjoy the game. That's not why we are here anymore. The level of complete ignorance regarding PES and the fleeting statement that gets flung about here is astounding.

It's a shame that we seem to be heading the same route as WENB.
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This is not the case for everyone mate and i enjoy Jimmys videos a lot! And other videos about the good things in this game too. Don't let other take away the fun you have with this game. No need for this. I like this game, you like this game, Jimmy likes this game. We're not alone here.
 
Chuny said:
I wouldn't mind paying a monthly fee for a real amazing Master League mode. If it's down to a poor ML like we've had for the past 4 years OR having to pay regularly for one that's awesome, then I would be willing to. But it better be flawless and full of options, and not scripted, and REAL.
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Would you pay for 2011's MLO? I actually would in a heartbeat. I have too many subscriptions to count, and some I don't use. I would love this as an option, especially if it included offline ML as well.
 
xicpanad said:
If this keeps following this route, I can only think that we´re closer to the end of videogames as we know it. It´s a global thing right now, not only soccer games do it. I only care for offline gaming, and I can´t stop thinking I´m like a really old dinossaur, close to extinction... I really hope they keep pushing for better AI on games and offline modes, but the future doesn´t look promising.
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We're in a tough balance overall. E-Sports is kicking into high gear, and that's a revenue baby, which is number one priority for any company. I think that's why my mentality of gameplay customization comes into play. What seems to be inevitable that E-sports is the focus (i.e. 5 min halves, fast open gameplay) then one can only try to combat it, or find a solution ahead of time, when there is a fear of a proper sim being lost. Again though, that's all left to perception and interpretation at the end of the day. It's the beauty of this forum. We all have differing opinions, and the most important part is how we treat others when we respectfully disagree.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Sorry guys but no pay to play please for ANY GAME. The level of micro transaction is just fine in PES imo.
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I don't think it's fine in PES 2018 tbh, MyClub is pay-to-win by design, and involves gambling in the form of "spinning" with agents (basically a slot machine for kids).

Gaming has been going that way for a while, but I hope the fiasco surrounding Battlefront 2 lootboxes will finally result in some legislation being put in place about video game microtransactions/gambling.
 
I dont think you need that much money to have a decent team, with all the preorder bonus and daily login etc etc with the first 100k free gp + 1000 myclub coins i got a decent starting team.

And PES has no payed dlc or season pass bs. Totally okay in that department. And im glad they stated they dont want to change it.

I would prefer tho to buy players like in FIFA.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
I dont think you need that much money to have a decent team, with all the preorder bonus and daily login etc etc with the first 100k free gp + 1000 myclub coins i got a decent starting team.

And PES has no payed dlc or season pass bs. Totally okay in that department. And im glad they stated they dont want to change it.

I would prefer tho to buy players like in FIFA.
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Regardless of how much money you need for a "decent" team, if you can pump more money in to get players with better attributes/traits that will perform better and win you matches you may not have won, it is pay-to-win.

And what about the people who didn't pre-order a super-duper-deluxe edition? I didn't, so I don't get Maradona or the extra coins... Preorder-to-win as well, nice...

It is ridiculous the lengths that some people go to in "farming" MyClub GP - I've seen posts on Reddit where people suggest doing the Coach mode games with white ball players (so just sit and watch the game play itself), or play co-op mode alone (with 2x CPUs) etc. The contract costs are like 3000+ for 10 matches for one black ball player, when you barely get over 3000 for one win (less if you don't win). Unless you log in every day, get all of the bonus GP and tediously farm extra GP, you'll barely break even (if at all) and progress will be at a snails pace... So many people just dump money in, because they purposely made the mode so grindy and slow to progress.

Not only do people put up with that shit, they lap it up to the extent that MyClub/FUT are the most played online modes in each game... This is why we are getting shafted more and more every year with these shitty microtransactions and P2W modes while single-player/gameplay take a back seat.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
Well you can always protest by not buying the game or not going into the mode or not buying the super duper delux version.
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I only buy the game... Problem is that too many other people just put up with it and pay, making things worse for everyone.

You can't even play standard online co-op without having to deal with MyClub opponents, and you can't even filter them out.
 
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Matt10 said:
I wish it weren't, but it was. Happens a lot more when you get past that midfield. The good thing about Superstar is that the CPU is fairly aggressive, regardless of tactics, so their attention to the ball defensively is a bit more honed in. That's the perfect test though to isolate that animation. It's been that way for a while now, but PES 2010 is what comes to mind the most. It's just one of those things that makes you stop and think..."That was a bit too easy..."

Nature of the beast though, once you see it, it's hard not to unsee it. Like I said, the consistency is not as common on Superstar, but it is interesting that there are no player abilities/styles/com styles that control this behavior.

I like your description of individuality. I also believe that a lot of that on-the-ball area has been a big focus this year, maybe sometimes to a fault because off-the-ball has needed work since day 1. I feel like they listened a bit as the issue I had with the SB not committing to the flank defensively was 90% fixed in the gameplay patch.
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Honestly i have been even too much critical of the game as it is, i prefer to enjoy it for what it is. It obviously has flaws but CPU allowing sometimes to run like that is so rare in my experience it feels realistic enough.

Look at this video


Now, this is gamebreaking though. I stopped playing that game as soon as it became too obvious there was such an easy way to score. That is Superstar.

Look at the fouls number too as a reminder that the issue is there since years and still not fixed. As you can see defenses backing off is not because of recent tactics introductions, they are behaving like this since years. There are some deep issues unresolved in Pes, that sometimes are less problematic, other times more, but the game really needs a reboot in my opinion. Or they should at least solve the long standing issues to have a great foundation for future games. Right now, even some basics are flawed and they can't really build on it.

The result is an enjoyable game that won't ever reach the greatness again, if they just keep tweaking it instead of really fixing fundamental issues.
 
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Matt10 said:
We're in a tough balance overall. E-Sports is kicking into high gear, and that's a revenue baby, which is number one priority for any company. I think that's why my mentality of gameplay customization comes into play. What seems to be inevitable that E-sports is the focus (i.e. 5 min halves, fast open gameplay) then one can only try to combat it, or find a solution ahead of time, when there is a fear of a proper sim being lost. Again though, that's all left to perception and interpretation at the end of the day. It's the beauty of this forum. We all have differing opinions, and the most important part is how we treat others when we respectfully disagree.
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Amen!
 
Matt10 said:
We're in a tough balance overall. E-Sports is kicking into high gear, and that's a revenue baby, which is number one priority for any company. I think that's why my mentality of gameplay customization comes into play. What seems to be inevitable that E-sports is the focus (i.e. 5 min halves, fast open gameplay) then one can only try to combat it, or find a solution ahead of time, when there is a fear of a proper sim being lost. Again though, that's all left to perception and interpretation at the end of the day. It's the beauty of this forum. We all have differing opinions, and the most important part is how we treat others when we respectfully disagree.
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This is the part I don't get. Why would maximum assistance levels and 5 min halves be preferred for E-Sports? There's more potential viewers and market growth, if the game was designed with deeper realism rather than end to end stuff. A sim would be more entertaining to watch I'd think? I don't know who at these game companies came up with the idea that "E-Sports football games must be as arcade-y as possible". This needs to change.
 
vxcmplx said:
This is the part I don't get. Why would maximum assistance levels and 5 min halves be preferred for E-Sports? There's more potential viewers and market growth, if the game was designed with deeper realism rather than end to end stuff. A sim would be more entertaining to watch I'd think? I don't know who at these game companies came up with the idea that "E-Sports football games must be as arcade-y as possible". This needs to change.
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I think it is not a matter of being arcade or sim but rather a matter of being accessible to the mass. As much as I would love devs to give more emphasis on simulation type of game, I understand that many potential buyers, who are casual players only, might have troubles/difficulty with a more simulation game. So arcade is an easier road for devs to have this crowd buying the game even if they only play it for a couple of handfull days during the year. From the devs perspective, the problem is not how long will you play the game, but will you buy it.
 
RaceRoom Racing Experience could be a model. They give away the engine and a few cars and three tracks for free, everything else you have to pay for (additional cars, tracks, series etc.) but it's usually at a price point that you would be willing to shell out regularly. There is a mix of licensed and fantasy content but in general everything is of a quite high quality and fairly up to date (which is important).

Adopted to Konami this would mean: PES would become more of a platform rather than a mere game and existing content would be sliced up and sold in packages. Advantage: Separate teams could more neatly focus on separate things. One could continuously improve the core (gameplay, animation, physics etc), others could merely focus on content. Those could even be external teams or community members who, for a small license fee, would finally be able to make some money of their hard work. Similar to flight simulators there would be central store that would be continuously updated ideally increasing a steady stream of cash. If they'd find the sweet spot for pricing (i.e. teams 2.99, top-teams 3.99, stadia 1.99, series 6.99, CL season 9.99 just as an example), they could in the end make more revenue from a single user than selling the whole package once a year, because as a fan I would be always on the look out for rebates or things I would like to add to my collection.

RaceRoom also shows, that this doesn't necessarily mean a lack in quality either. Physics are top notch, AI is adaptable and convincing, graphics and presentation for a DX9 game still quite decent, sound is excellent. It is considered highly among hardcore simmers and rookies alike and the developers (a Swedish team) are continuously publishing new content.

Now, given that the PES team is still predominantly Japanese, they will likely not do any of these (Western) things, but in general I think the day and age of an 'all inclusive' package once a year, is a business model on the decline.
 
I feel that Konami doesn't use the Champions League license nearly as much as it could - I remember an old Eidos Champions League game from the late 90s that had loads of classic teams, a scenario mode, interesting stats/facts about the CL etc.

If they sold a full-on detailed classic CL campaign with all the teams/stadia etc I would probably buy it... I guess these days there are so many obstacles in licensing something like that though. They can't even have all of the current CL teams in their current CL mode (Bayern...).

That said, why bother making proper extensive/detailed DLC anyway when people will throw way more money at you for a chance to get Beckham in their dream team, something that required almost zero effort (a face, FK animation and a few commentary lines).
 
rojofa said:
I feel that Konami doesn't use the Champions League license nearly as much as it could - I remember an old Eidos Champions League game from the late 90s that had loads of classic teams, a scenario mode, interesting stats/facts about the CL etc.

If they sold a full-on detailed classic CL campaign with all the teams/stadia etc I would probably buy it... I guess these days there are so many obstacles in licensing something like that though. They can't even have all of the current CL teams in their current CL mode (Bayern...).

That said, why bother making proper extensive/detailed DLC anyway when people will throw way more money at you for a chance to get Beckham in their dream team, something that required almost zero effort (a face, FK animation and a few commentary lines).
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I remember those CL games. I know my memory of a little kid may be a bit partial with nostalgia, but they weren't bad at all, I had some good fun with friends at the times. I miss more than a bit that period, where more or less everybody had a shot to a serious football game.
 
Madmac79 said:
I remember those CL games. I know my memory of a little kid may be a bit partial with nostalgia, but they weren't bad at all, I had some good fun with friends at the times. I miss more than a bit that period, where more or less everybody had a shot to a serious football game.
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There were loads of different football games by different studios around at that time within a few years of each other, from the top of my head; FIFA, ISS, Eidos CL, This Is Football, Actua Soccer, Three Lions, David Beckham Soccer, Viva Football (loads of classic teams in that one)... Might have missed some but I remember playing at least the demos of these.

Some probably weren't great, probably seem dreadful if you look at gameplay now but I enjoyed most of them as a kid. Was nice to be able to just pick up something different, I wish we had more choice nowadays but not much chance with how expensive modern games are to develop.
 
This game annoys me greatly and I have many complaints. However, I play it almost everyday (Online Divisions) because despite the flaws there's enough there for me to be content with. The last football game I 'enjoyed' this much was PES 2011.

If I look through my recent posts, there's probably more complaints than compliments. This thread is a discussion of PES 2018, not everything will be positive. We won't agree on everything, everyone wants something different to be added or changed, some major (e.g. player awareness stinks), some minor (e.g. I want Nike ID).

I want this game to be great and it annoys me when stupid things occur. The stuff about the defenders backing off to a certain spot is valid, I see it regularly in my games. The complaints about the backheels are valid but I think it's more of a (lack of) animation issue.

Referees not giving a free kick for a clear foul but then going back at the next break in play to book the player that he didn't give a foul for is remarkable and I don't think it's legal. It was also in PES 2017.

Goalkeepers stopping the chance of a counter attack because they automatically go into that silly slow motion dive is :BRICK:

Also Advanced Shooting sucks (sorry I had to sneak that in, I hate it).

On the flip side, Jimmy's video's are informative and show me stuff I didn't even know was possible. I'm using :r2: in a lot more ways now, thanks. Using the Wingback Advanced Instruction as a way to offer some protection to full backs is very helpful. I can't remember who suggested it but I appreciate it. It's very clear online that many don't use it.

I'm all for sliders, I believe they'll help greatly and not get in the way of this foundation. If you don't like them, don't use them. Zeemeister is right though, this isn't the thread for it because it's not in the current game.

Napoli are phenomenal to play with. When everything clicks, they are the best example of everything that is right about this game and PES in general. They can open teams up in so many ways but they can also be improved (Team ID). Callejon doesn't make the run to the back post enough (situational awareness) when Insigne has the ball on the left.

I would like to have a rotation of teams to use but I can't understand how I could save more formations/tactics on a PS2 memory card than the 2TB HDD in my PS4. There is nothing Konami can say to justify this. I'll continue to bang this drum at every chance I get.

I want Konami to implement their ideas, I prefer their interpretation of football. This is why I'm here and why I prefer it to the other game. However, I also don't want them to be reactive and be easily influenced by loud noises.

All of the above doesn't really flow but I hope you get my points.
 
I'd love to see another developer put together a football game, but I can see why they don't - everyone buys FIFA (even non-football fans) and it's even bundled with consoles, which a Konami rep has anonymously complained to MCV about before (Average Joe only needs one football game). Not to mention all licenses in existence being swallowed up.

Somebody on here said the other day "first-party games are quality" (and don't have to rely on microtransactions), "third-party games don't have to be". Or something similar (sorry if I've mangled your quote)...

That got me thinking about the days of Sony making This is Football. I'd love to see that come back - not necessarily because it used to be a great quality game, but because I'd love to see a big developer creating a serious football game from scratch. No crappy old legacy code in there.
 
I think licenses firmly locked down to both our current games are the most troublesome part of it all to be honest. I'm sure that more than a single software house could do a good or even better than Ea and Konami job, but I'm afraid very few people would play an unlicensed game, even if it was that good (I would by the way). Plus I'm sure that to program state of art animations, graphic and football mechanics itself you already need to put out a lot of money/commitment, no wonder nobody even dares anymore.
 
Madmac79 said:
but I'm afraid very few people would play an unlicensed game, even if it was that good (I would by the way)
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I would too, but you're right. Hence my fear that we're stuck in this cycle of games with the focus on kids, online gamers, and microtransactions. Forever. From now.

You could spend millions on a game's development and produce something absolutely amazing (think of the technology we have now - football games have never taken advantage of the CPU power in the latest consoles).

But if your Premier League is called the Prime League and features Flanchester United and Riverpool, it's just not going to sell. Average Joe doesn't apply any kind of critique to the game, it's "just a game" and with that mentality, you'd rather have the one that looks right. Gameplay isn't a massive factor.
 
I want to see something truly ambitious, taking advantage of modern hardware and not just ported over from 360/PS3 (with possibly still some code from the PS2 days). Stuff like full real time ball physics based only on actual collisions, proper foot planting and players being propelled only by the physics of it, the ball being a totally seperate entity... Overall I just want to see it become more tactile, more actual physics involved.

To me it feels like both games are quite simplistic in many ways - e.g. the way you are either "in possession" or "defending" with controls based on that; pressed B to pass/cross first time in a 50/50? Well, the game designated you as "defending" so you've just slide tackled... Would love to see a game try some different control scheme to make these situations feel more open.

Football games have always been like this and we've become accustomed to it, but after playing a game like Rocket League where you have so much freedom and precision of control, and the extremely tactile interaction with the ball... PES/FIFA seem very on-rails and governed too much by their behind-the-scenes scripts/parameters rather than simply the physics of what you're seeing happen on the screen.

This is the direction I hope that either a new game or PES/FIFA take in the future, but I can't imagine FIFA changing much at all in the forseeable future... Their current formula works too well for them.
 
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