PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

Matt stop the well said nonsense when clearly you don't agree with a word that I've said .. . ..I speak from the heart I've no other agenda. .I don't come on here to get other peoples backs up . . I've no reason to do that, but I'm not blinded by love for Pes. ..Pes 2017 was a great game when they finished tinkering with it and I still play it. .it's not your cup of tea and thats obvious and will never be unless sliders came on board. .you do a great job trying to figure out how to improve the game and you put a lot of time into it . .well done . . problems will always exist in Pes . .one improvement will lead to another fault. .I've nothing against you or anybody else who enjoys finding faults in the hope of finding solutions . .you can't ignore the fact that a lot of people are enjoying the game even with it's faults which they are aware of .. we can all find faults with anything in life and highlight them. . .it's a video game which will always have faults .. why try fix something which you know can never be perfect. . every year it's the same. . if they had this or that it would be great . .you have to take the game for what it is and find enjoyment in it. . if not move on. . you're talking as if we're all so dumb that the problems elude us . .they don't. ..all we can do is give feedback and hope things improve . .konami know this ..it's part of the charade . .think about it . . if they released a perfect game they wouldn't be able to take it any further . .I'm not part of any clique on this site and could be banned but I'll still hold firm in what I believe . .I've supported Pes since International Superstar soccer when I was laughed at for not playing Fifa. ..I could easily go over to Fifa sites and tear them apart but I don't . .no reason to . .I just happen to believe that Pes is a better game . .I'm just fed up with the bad press Pes gets all the time. . .If it bothered me the way it bothers other people I wouldn't play it . .that's all I've to say.
You said it yourself Deco. All we can do is give feedback hoping they listen. That's why we're trying to make more noise, because as you've seen already, even with some noise and proof we're told not enough. It gets tiring you know. We all want the best for PES in our own ways. But what some of us "critics" want are really very basic stuff that were already available in PES and removed, and no one knows why.

Instead of building on all the past elements that obviously worked great and got all of us onboard, they slowly removed and replaced stuff that didn't need go. Like, who asked for fouls to disappear when they worked flawlessly? Whatever happened to offsides? They're nonexistent now. Whoever asked to take out transfer frequency this year? Why'd the SBs become so passive this year when we never had this issue before (apart from 2011, and that was patched!). Why does the passing stat not matter now? Remember we dropped it down to 40 and it made no difference! Whoever asked to remove player stats that worked perfectly, like acceleration, shot technique, response, teamwork, etc? Why was team spirit introduced when it doesn't work as well as, teamwork, the stat we already had that did work? All these and more are just mind boggling man.

There was a feature in PES2010 ML that made that mode very alive for me, and I know you love ML so you can't disagree with me here :P. The loyalty and happiness feature. It affected player's performance if he was unhappy! He'd want to leave or not renew contract etc. I once sold my keeper who was one of my best assets for a lot of money, and he had high loyalty and didn't want to go. Right after selling him some of my very loyal players became extremely unhappy of what I did and requested transfers! They felt threatened because loyalty meant nothing to me when money was thrown on the table :LOL: It was an awesome experience that made ML feel alive for me. And for some odd reason, as per usual with Konami, that vanished from future iterations of PES :(

Another example from PS2 PES ML, training players between games caused fatigue, which in turn leads to increased risk of injury, so you had to be very careful. Pushing them too hard and building up fatigue, the higher it was, the bigger the injury and the longer the recovery period. I once did a stupid mistake and overtrained/overplayed a star player who got a massive injury and was out for almost a year and a half! And that was someone I spent a lot of time and money to get. Lmao. Down the bin, everything.

Tl;dr, We're not really asking for the impossible here. We just want old elements/features in PES to return.

P.s. I really miss the pure simplicity of arrows that managers use irl to dictate what their team does, instead of all this complicated, convoluted stuff we have now, that don't even work properly :(

And believe me, I'm doing my best to enjoy PES 2018. Many positives in it and with a little patching and tweaking, it can be the best.
 
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I saw the most beautiful thing today where the CPU actually scuffed their shot from inside my 18. It was Albrighton with his weaker foot. Have yet to see that again, but it made me chuckle and then cry because I didn't save the replay.
If you're on PS4, and saw something you liked and missed the chance to save, keep the share button pressed for a few seconds and you'll have a menu popup, then click square to save. That would save the last 10 or 15 or 30 minutes (can be set in settings) you played because the PS4 is constantly recording. Then go and trim the part you want out of it :)
 
If you're on PS4, and saw something you liked and missed the chance to save, keep the share button pressed for a few seconds and you'll have a menu popup, then click square to save. That would save the last 10 or 15 or 30 minutes (can be set in settings) you played because the PS4 is constantly recording. Then go and trim the part you want out of it :)

Honestly shooting isn't as bad as people make it out to be especially the ball physics on the release build. The only issue with shooting and everything else in PES 2018 is how stats doesn't really have that much of an impact. I actually kinda love shooting, just wish stats had more impact on shot variety.
 
Honestly shooting isn't as bad as people make it out to be especially the ball physics on the release build. The only issue with shooting and everything else in PES 2018 is how stats doesn't really have that much of an impact. I actually kinda love shooting, just wish stats had more impact on shot variety.
You're quoting the wrong post :D
 
Not gonna quote your massive post, Lami, but one thing to remember is that this is the first game of the latest '3 year build' (i.e. they've been working on this iteration for the last 3 years). That to me says a lot of it is new vs being built on top of what already existed. So a lot of what we view as being 'taken out' may actually be a case of them not having time (or remembering?) to put it back in. Not excusing some of the basic issues you bring up, and it may just be semantics, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

At my work we recently released a revamped version of our old tool - it was completely rebuilt from the ground up. People asked why we got rid of features but really we just haven't got around to adding those in yet!

On the other hand, I'm not sure if that's a good argument because so much of the gameplay and ML is similar to what we had last year. Just food for thought, though.
 
DH0pKNoW0AATgPI.jpg

anyone remember this?
inter was announced but I guess there should be two more to come?
 
Not gonna quote your massive post, Lami, but one thing to remember is that this is the first game of the latest '3 year build' (i.e. they've been working on this iteration for the last 3 years). That to me says a lot of it is new vs being built on top of what already existed. So a lot of what we view as being 'taken out' may actually be a case of them not having time (or remembering?) to put it back in. Not excusing some of the basic issues you bring up, and it may just be semantics, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

At my work we recently released a revamped version of our old tool - it was completely rebuilt from the ground up. People asked why we got rid of features but really we just haven't got around to adding those in yet!

On the other hand, I'm not sure if that's a good argument because so much of the gameplay and ML is similar to what we had last year. Just food for thought, though.
You know, in that case, the least they could do is tell us just that, if that really was the reason. Tell us they had to build from the ground up for next gen or new engine and as a result some things got affected, and things need time to get implemented. Just be honest with us. No need to play us like fools and tell us there's nothing wrong with them making us feel like we're crazy nutjobs ;)
 
Completely agree as well here. I said this in my demo review and in the FootyU podcast. The game is changing. Pop culture is changing. Where PES may have been able to be part of a cult following, now it's more mainstream and has to appeal to the masses.

My challenge is, does it have to sacrifice the very basic human fundamentals of playing with a football though? Let's say they can't adjust the gameplay, so can they do something else?

Can they adjust the "realism" of gameplay by minutes played? Is that a tough concept?

5 mins - arcade
10 mins - less arcade
15 mins - slightly realistic
20 mins - realistic
25 mins - more realistic
30 mins - ultra realistic

Basically, I don't believe in the idea of excusing the lack of fundamentals for the sake, or purpose, of just being okay and accepting that this is fine. Maybe the change isn't immediate, maybe it's not next year or the year after. I refuse to settle, and that's my own problem. I know I'm not alone there, but we've been down this road. I've said plenty of positives of the game, even fed that back A+ on the ball, C- off of it. I also said in my video that we can't expect the off-the-ball to be that great in PES 2018 because it wasn't a feature or focus based on the marketing we received on the game. But just because it's not mentioned, there's that (delusional?) part of me that believes that maybe, just maybe, it'll be a focus in a patch update or something. I want to enjoy the game incredibly bad. That's the reality of this all. It's not about finding problems, it's about addressing the problems with solutions.

They had this back from PES 2011-2013 (to a slightly lesser extent)

the game would be harder and have more realism the longer the time length.

This doesn't really seem to happen on the new engine.
 
You said it yourself Deco. All we can do is give feedback hoping they listen. That's why we're trying to make more noise, because as you've seen already, even with some noise and proof we're told not enough. It gets tiring you know. We all want the best for PES in our own ways. But what some of us "critics" want are really very basic stuff that were already available in PES and removed, and no one knows why.

Instead of building on all the past elements that obviously worked great and got all of us onboard, they slowly removed and replaced stuff that didn't need go. Like, who asked for fouls to disappear when they worked flawlessly? Whatever happened to offsides? They're nonexistent now. Whoever asked to take out transfer frequency this year? Why'd the SBs become so passive this year when we never had this issue before (apart from 2011, and that was patched!). Why does the passing stat not matter now? Remember we dropped it down to 40 and it made no difference! Whoever asked to remove player stats that worked perfectly, like acceleration, shot technique, response, teamwork, etc? Why was team spirit introduced when it doesn't work as well as, teamwork, the stat we already had that did work? All these and more are just mind boggling man.

There was a feature in PES2010 ML that made that mode very alive for me, and I know you love ML so you can't disagree with me here :P. The loyalty and happiness feature. It affected player's performance if he was unhappy! He'd want to leave or not renew contract etc. I once sold my keeper who was one of my best assets for a lot of money, and he had high loyalty and didn't want to go. Right after selling him some of my very loyal players became extremely unhappy of what I did and requested transfers! They felt threatened because loyalty meant nothing to me when money was thrown on the table :LOL: It was an awesome experience that made ML feel alive for me. And for some odd reason, as per usual with Konami, that vanished from future iterations of PES :(

Another example from PS2 PES ML, training players between games caused fatigue, which in turn leads to increased risk of injury, so you had to be very careful. Pushing them too hard and building up fatigue, the higher it was, the bigger the injury and the longer the recovery period. I once did a stupid mistake and overtrained/overplayed a star player who got a massive injury and was out for almost a year and a half! And that was someone I spent a lot of time and money to get. Lmao. Down the bin, everything.

Tl;dr, We're not really asking for the impossible here. We just want old elements/features in PES to return.

P.s. I really miss the pure simplicity of arrows that managers use irl to dictate what their team does, instead of all this complicated, convoluted stuff we have now, that don't even work properly :(

And believe me, I'm doing my best to enjoy PES 2018. Many positives in it and with a little patching and tweaking, it can be the best.
What a great post thanks Lami you put it all better than I ever could
 
You said it yourself Deco. All we can do is give feedback hoping they listen. That's why we're trying to make more noise, because as you've seen already, even with some noise and proof we're told not enough. It gets tiring you know. We all want the best for PES in our own ways. But what some of us "critics" want are really very basic stuff that were already available in PES and removed, and no one knows why.

Instead of building on all the past elements that obviously worked great and got all of us onboard, they slowly removed and replaced stuff that didn't need go. Like, who asked for fouls to disappear when they worked flawlessly? Whatever happened to offsides? They're nonexistent now. Whoever asked to take out transfer frequency this year? Why'd the SBs become so passive this year when we never had this issue before (apart from 2011, and that was patched!). Why does the passing stat not matter now? Remember we dropped it down to 40 and it made no difference! Whoever asked to remove player stats that worked perfectly, like acceleration, shot technique, response, teamwork, etc? Why was team spirit introduced when it doesn't work as well as, teamwork, the stat we already had that did work? All these and more are just mind boggling man.

There was a feature in PES2010 ML that made that mode very alive for me, and I know you love ML so you can't disagree with me here :P. The loyalty and happiness feature. It affected player's performance if he was unhappy! He'd want to leave or not renew contract etc. I once sold my keeper who was one of my best assets for a lot of money, and he had high loyalty and didn't want to go. Right after selling him some of my very loyal players became extremely unhappy of what I did and requested transfers! They felt threatened because loyalty meant nothing to me when money was thrown on the table :LOL: It was an awesome experience that made ML feel alive for me. And for some odd reason, as per usual with Konami, that vanished from future iterations of PES :(

Another example from PS2 PES ML, training players between games caused fatigue, which in turn leads to increased risk of injury, so you had to be very careful. Pushing them too hard and building up fatigue, the higher it was, the bigger the injury and the longer the recovery period. I once did a stupid mistake and overtrained/overplayed a star player who got a massive injury and was out for almost a year and a half! And that was someone I spent a lot of time and money to get. Lmao. Down the bin, everything.

Tl;dr, We're not really asking for the impossible here. We just want old elements/features in PES to return.

P.s. I really miss the pure simplicity of arrows that managers use irl to dictate what their team does, instead of all this complicated, convoluted stuff we have now, that don't even work properly :(

And believe me, I'm doing my best to enjoy PES 2018. Many positives in it and with a little patching and tweaking, it can be the best.

I agree with you Lami I remember all of that stuff . .it feels like konami are on a tight budget or they are only allowed so many options and have to juggle them around . . .leave out one thing to bring in another .. .I didn't like that one where the guy comes in moaning if he's not playing. . even if he was shite and your team was full of superstars he'd knock at the door every five minutes. . . sorry about some of last night I'm just a hot headed person . .have to manage it better.
 
I agree with you Lami I remember all of that stuff . .it feels like konami are on a tight budget or they are only allowed so many options and have to juggle them around . . .leave out one thing to bring in another .. .I didn't like that one where the guy comes in moaning if he's not playing. . even if he was shite and your team was full of superstars he'd knock at the door every five minutes. . . sorry about some of last night I'm just a hot headed person . .have to manage it better.
No it's all good. I understand frustrations from both sides.

Yea I remember the moaning part. That was in 2011 or 12 or 13 can't remember exactly.
 
I saw the most beautiful thing today where the CPU actually scuffed their shot from inside my 18. It was Albrighton with his weaker foot. Have yet to see that again, but it made me chuckle and then cry because I didn't save the replay.

I shouldn't have said some of that stuff last night. . .I know you work hard at improving things in the game . .I lose the head too easily and then regret it .. .I shouldn't be lashing out at people on the site.
 
Anyone who has used pes World. Should I apply live update before or after, and should I tick use players from the of?
 
There was a feature in PES2010 ML that made that mode very alive for me, and I know you love ML so you can't disagree with me here :P. The loyalty and happiness feature. It affected player's performance if he was unhappy! He'd want to leave or not renew contract etc. I once sold my keeper who was one of my best assets for a lot of money, and he had high loyalty and didn't want to go. Right after selling him some of my very loyal players became extremely unhappy of what I did and requested transfers! They felt threatened because loyalty meant nothing to me when money was thrown on the table :LOL: It was an awesome experience that made ML feel alive for me. And for some odd reason, as per usual with Konami, that vanished from future iterations of PES :(

Man I'd love so much for players to have a proper, deep personality and act accordingly. Maybe I'm the only one, but I see the off the field portion of my ideal career mode more as a storyline maker ala Crusader Kings 2 (if you are familiar) than a cold agglomerate of numbers and names. Now I'm probably thinking too big (more like dreaming really), but imagine the kind of deepness that could come from having not only players, but even club owners and managers as characterized personalities that interact with you, and between themselves.. it would finally make a truly alive and highly replayable career..

By the way, I agree, why they keep putting in and out stuff from ML is a mistery to me. I remember the Pes 2011 one.. although they removed the feature you talked about, it still had a great, deep scouting system that actually made sense maybe for the only time in the entire saga.. I remember transfer market being also very hard with the default team, to the point that you truly had to make serious choices to build your team..

all gone in an year..
 
I shouldn't have said some of that stuff last night. . .I know you work hard at improving things in the game . .I lose the head too easily and then regret it .. .I shouldn't be lashing out at people on the site.
We're all passionate about PES mate and sometimes we get heated or say stuff we don't mean..

You're a good poster from what I can gather
 
Maybe I'm the only one, but I see the off the field portion of my ideal career mode more as a storyline maker ala Crusader Kings 2 (if you are familiar) than a cold agglomerate of numbers and names.

Will it come with all the incest and kinslaying as well? :D

It's a bit like this with managers, they have their own tactics so when they move from team A to team B, they bring in something new. That's...something. It was really visible in PES 2015 for me, every new season I would instantly know which team changed their manager because their style was different.

Fake owners, with their own budgets and demands, could be a really fun addition too.

Jokes aside, yes ML could use more stuff, and it's really weird for me to hear about feature-packed ML - I could play PES 2009 at best all the way until 2013. In the end I'd rather choose gameplay over features, and could never get into 2010-2013 games :(

2009 I had to play at some point, even PES 6 didn't work well on my PC :D

Big part of ML was always having yer own narrative and story in yer own head. It works extremely well in old PES games where many teams have no licenses but they have some sort of image (no RD White Blue generic fuckoff names). I can easily play PES 5/6 without any patch whatsoever, but it's a bit problematic with newest titles :(

Worst thing for me now is not even lack of features, it's that sometimes I have no idea what some existing things actually do. Affection? Ye it's gud when it's high that's something I can guess by myself but do we know anything else?

It's not even new features for me, I just want existing ones to have a purpose, so that there'll be actual gameplay and strategy and thinking to do. I like things like Team Roles, now I'm mostly looking for people with Youth Prospect/Creator roles since their stats will grow noticeably faster. It's nothing big, but it gives you something to think about. And that's the kind of thing that I'd like the most to be honest. I would absolutely loathe something like FIFA Career Mode, ugh. Never liked it, never will.
 
I actually like the fact there are disputes between passionate pes fans like matt and deco shows ppl still care and want a game we can call a classic

We must be the most loyal fans of a series in gaming we are all still here since the ps2 days searching for a next gen version of those classics i feel pes 2018 is like the perfect canvas to paint it on except konami decided to use crayons when creating the AI
 
Completely agree as well here. I said this in my demo review and in the FootyU podcast. The game is changing. Pop culture is changing. Where PES may have been able to be part of a cult following, now it's more mainstream and has to appeal to the masses.

My challenge is, does it have to sacrifice the very basic human fundamentals of playing with a football though? Let's say they can't adjust the gameplay, so can they do something else?

Can they adjust the "realism" of gameplay by minutes played? Is that a tough concept?

5 mins - arcade
10 mins - less arcade
15 mins - slightly realistic
20 mins - realistic
25 mins - more realistic
30 mins - ultra realistic

Basically, I don't believe in the idea of excusing the lack of fundamentals for the sake, or purpose, of just being okay and accepting that this is fine. Maybe the change isn't immediate, maybe it's not next year or the year after. I refuse to settle, and that's my own problem. I know I'm not alone there, but we've been down this road. I've said plenty of positives of the game, even fed that back A+ on the ball, C- off of it. I also said in my video that we can't expect the off-the-ball to be that great in PES 2018 because it wasn't a feature or focus based on the marketing we received on the game. But just because it's not mentioned, there's that (delusional?) part of me that believes that maybe, just maybe, it'll be a focus in a patch update or something. I want to enjoy the game incredibly bad. That's the reality of this all. It's not about finding problems, it's about addressing the problems with solutions.
It is,it's about addressing issues,I agree,you have very good and solid points.
The game length fix or game length being the new difficulty/arcade-sim slider,really great thought.
It might be me who has "settled" with this game being what it is right now,and feeling ok with it.
It's good that some want more,I respect that in you,great that you want to move things in a better direction.

I'm usually just like you when it comes to a lot of things,movies/series,god knows how many I've stopped watching because a few small details have been off,that's were I go fully bananas and can't watch it.
Good points,smart solutions,well put Matt
 
Well you've mugged yourself off haha brilliant, did make me laugh

It's a shame most don't like this game because of the poor AI being faster than you, John Terry faster than vardy when vardy is 5 meters in front lol so stupid, hopefully we will all enjoy this game soon,don't lose hope just yet:)
 
Well you've mugged yourself off haha brilliant, did make me laugh

It's a shame most don't like this game because of the poor AI being faster than you, John Terry faster than vardy when vardy is 5 meters in front lol so stupid, hopefully we will all enjoy this game soon,don't lose hope just yet:)
You have a thing for Vardy and Terry right?
A bit obsessed?
We've kinda get that by now
 
All we can do is give feedback hoping they listen. That's why we're trying to make more noise, because as you've seen already, even with some noise and proof we're told not enough. It gets tiring you know. We all want the best for PES in our own ways. But what some of us "critics" want are really very basic stuff that were already available in PES and removed, and no one knows why.

Making noise is right, but if i didn't play Pes 2018 i would think it's one of the worst football games ever, considering how much complaints there are on here and how little people speak about what is good.
 
Making noise is right, but if i didn't play Pes 2018 i would think it's one of the worst football games ever, considering how much complaints there are on here and how little people speak about what is good.
You have a point. Maybe it isn't obvious we're coocoo about PES and take it for granted that people already know we are and since that's the case we think no need to mention the positives and just point out the negatives hoping they get sorted and have the perfect current game. Next time I'll start with, "I love this and that but I have a couple issues" .
 
You said it yourself Deco. All we can do is give feedback hoping they listen. That's why we're trying to make more noise, because as you've seen already, even with some noise and proof we're told not enough. It gets tiring you know. We all want the best for PES in our own ways. But what some of us "critics" want are really very basic stuff that were already available in PES and removed, and no one knows why.

There was a feature in PES2010 ML that made that mode very alive for me, and I know you love ML so you can't disagree with me here :P. The loyalty and happiness feature. It affected player's performance if he was unhappy! He'd want to leave or not renew contract etc. I once sold my keeper who was one of my best assets for a lot of money, and he had high loyalty and didn't want to go. Right after selling him some of my very loyal players became extremely unhappy of what I did and requested transfers! They felt threatened because loyalty meant nothing to me when money was thrown on the table :LOL: It was an awesome experience that made ML feel alive for me. And for some odd reason, as per usual with Konami, that vanished from future iterations of PES :(

And believe me, I'm doing my best to enjoy PES 2018. Many positives in it and with a little patching and tweaking, it can be the best.

Perfect post. I loved ML that year... I actually had something to do outside the matches. I had to actually manage my squad, and there was a purpose for that! Now, it feels really stupid because all I see are some random arrows showing a random form... Things like, I´m loosing a ton of matches, and then, I finally win one important match, and the result is half team out of form for the next one. Also happens before cup matches and derby ones. I really don´t get it yet. I could never understand the reason of random form and this is the kind of things that removed immersion and depth. This is why Fifa has all the bells and whistles. It´s not that great on the pitch, but has all those things going on in the backstage, like realistic player emotions and reactions, season objetives etc...

Also, people are sometimes saying this game needs sliders. I believe that, the day PES has sliders, is the day I´ll stop enjoying it. For the purists, it might make some sense, but for the majority, it will only leave us in a huge rabit hole. Once you know it, your stuck in a never ending search for the perfect slider set, instead of actually enjoying the game. I knew Matt a couple years ago because of sliders, I started following him and I really still appreciate his energy in trying to make things better. But, don´t take me personal Matt, I believe he also has a obsession with this. He actually has fun in tinkering things here and there, he´s an explorer and kind of a scientist... he should be working on game developing and testing, but then drags us into this never ending story. I certainly don´t wanna go that route. I´ve tried it once and its not for me.

Currently still playing PES 2017, and it has changed throughout the year. I can only imagine that PES 2018 will get better along the year also.
 
Perfect post. I loved ML that year... I actually had something to do outside the matches. I had to actually manage my squad, and there was a purpose for that! Now, it feels really stupid because all I see are some random arrows showing a random form... Things like, I´m loosing a ton of matches, and then, I finally win one important match, and the result is half team out of form for the next one. Also happens before cup matches and derby ones. I really don´t get it yet. I could never understand the reason of random form and this is the kind of things that removed immersion and depth. This is why Fifa has all the bells and whistles. It´s not that great on the pitch, but has all those things going on in the backstage, like realistic player emotions and reactions, season objetives etc...

Also, people are sometimes saying this game needs sliders. I believe that, the day PES has sliders, is the day I´ll stop enjoying it. For the purists, it might make some sense, but for the majority, it will only leave us in a huge rabit hole. Once you know it, your stuck in a never ending search for the perfect slider set, instead of actually enjoying the game. I knew Matt a couple years ago because of sliders, I started following him and I really still appreciate his energy in trying to make things better. But, don´t take me personal Matt, I believe he also has a obsession with this. He actually has fun in tinkering things here and there, he´s an explorer and kind of a scientist... he should be working on game developing and testing, but then drags us into this never ending story. I certainly don´t wanna go that route. I´ve tried it once and its not for me.

Currently still playing PES 2017, and it has changed throughout the year. I can only imagine that PES 2018 will get better along the year also.
Good post agree completely

Forget sliders. They never fix anything, they will address on issue but break another at same time

Plus sliders can't be used online so it's pointless IMHO
 
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