PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

Agreed about the tackling through the bacl of the player. I freaking hate when I think there is no way they could knick the ball but the tackler defies laws of physics and goes through my player to make the tackle.
 
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Daisuk said:
I felt that when I played with basic or advanced shooting, but shooting feels a lot more natural with manual shooting, which also seems to trigger more variations in animations from the goalie as well. Have had way more deflected shots go in since I started with manual shooting, for instance. I enjoy goal scoring a whole lot more now.
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I'll have to try manual shooting. It doesn't help the CPU on their shot power though. However, yes, the curiosity was primarily on the user's side. Thanks for the suggestion.

Deco said:
Watch any Champions league matches and you will see similarities with the way Pes plays . . the type of goals, the build up play. . . . even the way the ball hits the net. . . all very similar which is a reflection of the modern game. ..no point in comparing and trying to go back, just enjoy the memories . . times have changed. . Pes 2017 is a great game, possibly the best . . it's not perfect but it has longevity which recent ones haven't had.
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I think that is a bit off base. PES 17 has moments when it looks realistic, but it takes a lot of effort into modifying the tactics to get it to play fundamentally correct. Roping 30+yard passes down the sidelines at will, or passing to a forward with no pressure on his backside, and every single player striking the ball absolutely perfectly, are just a snippet of the lack of realism the game shows. I think the shot speed is much too powerful, and the keepers stay airborne much too long - but not as bad as PES 16 was of course.

I agree about the longevity, and PES 17 is truly where the base of this engine should have been. It still has some growing pains to go through, but I'm just as optimistic as I was before the game came out. The purpose of my previous post wasn't an assessment on the "overall" of the game, it was merely in the aspect of scoring goals and the feel behind them. Nostalgia is a very powerful resource, and is a critical buying agent to invest into the series for many users.
 
What's missing in this game is a button where you can push and pull a player or grab a player shirt for fouls. Also cutting balls in the game is so easy, it seems stats don't matter when it comes to that.
 
Matt10 said:
I'll have to try manual shooting. It doesn't help the CPU on their shot power though. However, yes, the curiosity was primarily on the user's side. Thanks for the suggestion.



I think that is a bit off base. PES 17 has moments when it looks realistic, but it takes a lot of effort into modifying the tactics to get it to play fundamentally correct. Roping 30+yard passes down the sidelines at will, or passing to a forward with no pressure on his backside, and every single player striking the ball absolutely perfectly, are just a snippet of the lack of realism the game shows. I think the shot speed is much too powerful, and the keepers stay airborne much too long - but not as bad as PES 16 was of course.

I agree about the longevity, and PES 17 is truly where the base of this engine should have been. It still has some growing pains to go through, but I'm just as optimistic as I was before the game came out. The purpose of my previous post wasn't an assessment on the "overall" of the game, it was merely in the aspect of scoring goals and the feel behind them. Nostalgia is a very powerful resource, and is a critical buying agent to invest into the series for many users.
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Well Matt after playing ML Superstar the last few days I've become disillusioned . .. ..It's a nightmare and it doesn't seem to matter which personnel you have on board, I don't think it's even down to skill or tactics . .. the A.I has an agenda and there's not much you can do about it. . .. first season is about making sure that you finish bottom of the League . ...second season so far doesn't appear to be much better . ..the A.I seems to be able to push 5 or 6 up into the box each time and yet when you break you barely manage 2 near their box which is full of their defenders who block everything are quicker and stronger than you are and it doesn't matter how you tweak it. A.I attacks consist of incredibly accurate passing and shooting and super agility and thinking. . .I've no answer in how to beat them . . .it's incredibly disheartening and wrong in my view .. . I need a break from it.
 
Great vid. .. Matt do you recommend aggressive over conservative and possession play over counter attack? Btw buy Vietto for your ML team.
 
Matt10 said:
Here are my thoughts of where the game is, but also what can be done about getting it to an acceptable level using the tactical options we have available.

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This is great, Matt, thanks for that! I've already implemented the five minute fix and the tight marking, but will try out the other suggestions as well.

I've almost played a full season with Corinthians in the Brazilian league on regular full manual now. I've enjoyed it quite a bit. Some games are ruined by AI cheating, but mostly it's been pretty good. I've really had to work the defenses with passing and movement to get goals (or have just tried with some insane long shots, and scored every now and then). I've compiled a little list of things I wish PES/Konami would get sorted eventually though (not that I'm hoping it will ever happen), thought I'd share.

- The referees. They're doing my head in with how often they give the opposition freekicks and how few freekicks I get. I've had situations where an opposition guy has fouled one of my players, then my player rolls into the legs of the opposition play, and they get the freekick! It's just ridiculous, and can surely be fixed somehow, as it's obviously biased towards the human player.

- Replays after fouls. I don't need to see them, please just get rid.

- Tackling when trying to reach stray balls. This one is doing my head in as well. So you've had a shot saved, the ball is bouncing around a bit in the six yard box, you have two players close, you think one of them could pull off a header or maybe a volley, you press the shot button, you then slide tackle their keeper or someone and give away a foul. You simply can't reach those stray balls if there are opposition players around, it seems, you'll end up tackling them 49 times out of 50.

- Stealing the ball from the opposition defence up high. This is so easy even on World Class, and should just be fixed one way or the other. I've had to just keep myself from pressing the opposition up high, but then you can have the opposition pass the ball around the back for a while, and waste valuable time, so the natural thing would be to press. Should really be fixed one way or another. I've had way too many steal the ball from an opposing player up high, one on one with keeper, goal. Not realistic at all.

- Player reactions. This is especially noticable when playing full manual, as passes aren't always perfect. Sometimes you pass the ball a bit behind your guy, and it would of course be natural for your player to have some latency in reaction, but what you're often seeing is your guy drifting on for a couple of seconds before reacting, which just isn't realistic, and it makes attacking in smaller spaces ridiculously hard on higher difficulties, as the opposition simply react sooner than your guys 10 times out of 10.

- I'm playing the Brazilian league now and have had something like 7 home matches in a row (including 5 league matches). I don't know the Brazilian league too well, but I suspect this is some lazy Konami coding, as it's been a problem for at least 10 years with PES games. Should be so easy to fix.

- Crossing and heading on full manual seems broken to me. I might be doing something wrong, but even while holding L2 down while crossing, way too often the players I have in the box will just stay rooted to the spot, even if the ball is flying just over their heads, if I press the shot button. If I do get my head on the ball, it will very often just loop into the air and over. I had an instance that I studied with instant replay where my striker goes up to head the ball, he hits it cleanly on his forehead, the trajectory of the ball before he hits it, and the way he hits it with his head tilted downwards towards the ball, would suggest a clean header downwards towards goal, but the replay shows the ball magically looping up and over goal. Not physically possible, and I've had this happen so many times I can't believe it's all human error, really.

- Offsides. A bit of a minor niggle. I see often in offside replays that you are maybe a little finger or a fibre of your shirt in offside, it would be impossible for the human eye to spot this offside, but it's always called. I honestly don't think a lot of these calls would be made in real life, as they probably wouldn't be deemed offside. Especially when playing full manual, and it's hard to get around in and around a packed box, these are quite annoying, especially if you've had a lovely passing move end with a goal, for it to be disallowed for your striker to have had his eyebrow in offside. A little more leeway on offsides would make the game a whole lot more enjoyable on full manual at least, in my opinion.

- The AI cheating. This one takes many forms, and I'm sure you all know it. Some matches you notice it as soon as you take the kick off, your players just don't respond to your commands as well, they're slow to turn, they're straying out of position just a little bit, don't receive passes well, react slowly to things happening etc. Why do they do this?! I mean, it's normal for a team to be out of form, and have bad days, but I wish there was some way for me to get an indication of this happening. Are all my guys on down arrows? Sure, I'd understand it, and I could maybe do something about it, but they're not! Some of them might be in perfectly good arrow poing up form, yet still not be able to pass to a team mate five yards away. Also, the obvious cheating where the AI, being Nottingham or someone, turns into Barcelona anno 2010 and you can't touch them. Even if you try to tackle a player he will just magically bump out of the way.

- Player form. This one, yet again, doesn't make much sense. I had a player I hadn't played all season get into the starting line-up on a neutral arrow. He goes on to score a hat trick, and had an assist as well, involved in all the goals, didn't put a foot wrong, MOM display, he was awesome. The next match he has a downward pointing arrow - what the hell? How can that be? He's had the match of his life, for crying out loud, he must be buzzing! Player form is just completely random, it's like it has nothing to do with how you play the game. I remember this working in earlier games (back on the PS2), so not sure why it doesn't now. If you had a string of good games, your team was buzzing, likewise if you were in a rut, you could clearly see it from the form of the players, and you had to fight to get out of it - now it's just all over the place and random.

- The camera. I haven't found a single camera I like this year. Only a couple of them allows you to see the entire width of the pitch, one being "fan view" which make the intricate short passes in tight spaces much harder, and one is the dynamic wide on a very low height setting, which basically mean you'll struggle to see what is happening on the far side. I've had to settle on a custom 0-10-10 (zero zoom, ten height, ten angle), but it's frustrating that you can't see the lower side of the pitch when you're in the middle of the pitch. You need to rely on the radar too much, and especially on manual passing, this isn't ideal.
 
Matt10 said:
Anyone else feel like there is less feeling of reward when scoring a goal? I think it is more aesthetic than anything where as in PES4-6 there was that feeling of the way the ball hit the back of the net, etc. Is it the keepers? Is it the ball? Net Physics, or Net color?

Can't quite put my finger on it. Was wondering if anyone else thought the same thing. I feel like it's a combination of shot power (PES 17 too powerful/unrealistic) and net physics (too loose).
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Thats why I gave up on PES of this Gen, and Im almost giving up on PES foruns as well.
Everybody have the rigth to express themselves but, what I notice, by what Ive been readind, is that PES will never gonna be like old timer fans wants. That PES 4/5/6 feeling, with next gen graphics and 360 moviment with some proper foot planting you know?
All this shit chat about manual passing and shooting make me lose my hopes on this franchise. PES was about STATS and little diferences between player to player. Now any Joe Doe can perform a 30 meters pass. Theres no need to change tactics. There no offence and defence tatics anymore. Enough with this casual type of gameplay!
PES is exactly the way this newbies wanted to be. Sorry....for the very bad english.
 
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I dont have too many gameplay issues apart from the inevitable responsiveness which makes all shots and passes really hard like rockets since there is no gradient with dribbling, running, sprinting, essentially everything is very abrupt when you move from start to stop. In the PS2 era since everything was automatic, the game could create scripted variables to make you miss and mess up your balance, its become harder to do this consistently on the newer engines.

My beef is literally everything else apart from the gameplay, Master League, is just a series of friendlies with the only good part is when you get deep into the mode teams will change managers to give you interesting variety, that's it. Its dire, its truly a disgrace! I did a simulated season with PSG and got to the french cup final, or well let me just say its just a friendly match really, no trophy presentation at the beginning, played at the konami stadium? Little to no commentary speech on it.

I've gone back to my beloved PES 2013 again, the issue people dont get that satisfaction with scoring which i last had in PES 2013 or back in the glory years is down to 50% nostalgia and 50% PES 2014-2017 has a core issue which makes shooting rather predictable and efficient since due to their being no gradient and variables in dribbling and moving with the ball you can always find that great or perfect balance to shoot.

Shooting mechanics are fine and have never been better, what is desperately needed it to develop the movement and dribbling back to the sensitivity of PES 2011-2013 where you really needed to pay such attention to the players sense of balance before taking a shot.

The big difference between shooting in PES 2013 and PES 2017 is like in real life on PES 2013, you get the balance right, and try to beat the keeper depending on the situation and your player, on PES 2017 its like you always look to shoot across the keeper or use manual shot and blast it past him. Going round keeper has been non existent on the fox engine also which is a great example of these core issues which was great in PES 2013 and prior games.
 
Dispite the scripts, the PES of old gen has far more variated gamplay than this gen. Its like I said, its stats base so AI has to make difference on outcome. Can you imagine youre playing NBA 2K, then you have full control of every action? Then you can shoot like Curry and dunk like Lebron with every player. Well, its kind the way I see PES 2017.
 
While we're on the subject of lazy coding, once thing I hate more than anything EVERY YEAR is they never correct the Cup formats for the Copy America and African Cup of Nations.

There's more than enough teams now yet we can't have a 16 team group stage. Went even give us the option to customise tournament formats in edit mode of we can't change the number of teams - what the actual fuck? Is this lazyness, neglect or some kind of weird legal loophole we don't know about?

At least the Asian Cup is correct. Heaven forbid they screw the great nation of Nippons hopes of recreating a fictional national victory in an authentic tournament tree.
 
Danny Henry said:
Dispite the scripts, the PES of old gen has far more variated gamplay than this gen.
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I played PES 6 quite recently and it wasn't more varied than PES 2017 as a whole, the shooting is more varied to an extent since its more scripted to fail and PES 2017 its easy to get the balance to shoot how you want.

PES 2017 is very different game to the old gen where every game required you to battle and pass you way up the pitch and earn a goal, PES 2017 is all about tactics, all about making sure you setup you team to give you the advantage and make sure your aware if the AI has too much advantage. You cant play the game the same way you did 10 years ago, its a different animal now. The whole PES nostalgia 'it was better on the PS2' holds no water anymore. On the PS2 you didn't need to worry about the AI's tactics anywhere near as much as you do now

The big problem with PES is not the gameplay its arguably the best every football game on the pitch, i mean arguably, i prefer 2013 still but thats just me, off the pitch its the biggest shambles it's every been, theres been NO, i mean NO work WHATSOEVER done off the pitch, no final presentation in cups like the Coupe de France is simply unacceptable and incompetent programming, its a example of the really poor presentation all round which takes away from any aesthetic immersion.

MafiaMurderBag said:
While we're on the subject of lazy coding, once thing I hate more than anything EVERY YEAR is they never correct the Cup formats for the Copy America and African Cup of Nations.

There's more than enough teams now yet we can't have a 16 team group stage. Went even give us the option to customise tournament formats in edit mode of we can't change the number of teams - what the actual fuck? Is this lazyness, neglect or some kind of weird legal loophole we don't know about?

At least the Asian Cup is correct. Heaven forbid they screw the great nation of Nippons hopes of recreating a fictional national victory in an authentic tournament tree.
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Yes, this is my beef and something which needs addressing, have you seen the FA Cup or the play at a huge random neutral stadium til the final where you play in a small neutral venue with no presentation? Its a joke it a real disgrace.

Its so simple to program the rules of the FA Cup but they never bother, just leave it in the fantasy tournament structure forever which is a joke.
 
Matt10 said:
Here are my thoughts of where the game is, but also what can be done about getting it to an acceptable level using the tactical options we have available.

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This! Stellar work.

Thanks again for your work on these edits, Matt. I have been using your 5 second fix ever since you introduced them and have had a midfield in the matches ever since. Trying to advertise them every chance I get. Thanks also for pointing me to the PC patch, as I will be switching to that platform shortly.

I am not 100% sure of removing the long ball option from the CPU, because it adds some nice variety. And even on superstar these long balls don't always reach their target. CBs can defend against them - especially with tight marking - and the CPU will also hit them long and wide, in particular when under pressure.

If the CPU has two CFs, and you can't mark both tightly (e.g., if you want to use counter target defensive tactic), one option is to mark the more dangerous CF tightly and man mark the other with a DMF.

We all know that there is plenty of room for improvement in this game, but the fact is that I am playing it every time I have the slightest chance to do so.
 
Matt10 said:
Anyone else feel like there is less feeling of reward when scoring a goal? I think it is more aesthetic than anything where as in PES4-6 there was that feeling of the way the ball hit the back of the net, etc. Is it the keepers? Is it the ball? Net Physics, or Net color?

Can't quite put my finger on it. Was wondering if anyone else thought the same thing. I feel like it's a combination of shot power (PES 17 too powerful/unrealistic) and net physics (too loose).
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I do. It's a combination of the physics, animations and shot variety, I think. There's hardly any finesse or character to the shots. They're nearly all flat bullets. No dip, swerve etc... Lots of repetition. Some of the animations are awkward too and don't feel right. Konami had the shooting spot on back in the PS2 days. FIFA didn't but it does a much better job of the shooting now. I think Konami has to improve the way shooting feels and looks if they want their future games to be addictive and have longevity.
 
After dabbling with manual passing for a long while now, I have admitted defeat and gone back to PA1 on Top Player. I am a lot better at moving the ball around manually but the fact is I have lost all 14 games where I've used manual passing and scored just 5 goals. I just don't have the time to master it anymore. The trouble is, PA1 is too assisted. I'm finding it easy to win most games so there's no safe zone between these two options that I can choose.
 
bluewomble88 said:
After dabbling with manual passing for a long while now, I have admitted defeat and gone back to PA1 on Top Player. I am a lot better at moving the ball around manually but the fact is I have lost all 14 games where I've used manual passing and scored just 5 goals. I just don't have the time to master it anymore. The trouble is, PA1 is too assisted. I'm finding it easy to win most games so there's no safe zone between these two options that I can choose.
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Are you using manual shooting or assisted? It takes a while to get used to manual . . .when I stepped up to Superstar manual passing and shooting I was lost. . I took Matt's advice about the tactics and am doing ok now. . .if you're in Master League the first season is a nightmare on manual but it gets better the more games that you play.
 
I'm on SA1 for now.
I don't play ML, just league competitions.

Manual passing feels great when you get it right but I am finding it so hard to maintain any consistency. In the final third, the defenders cover every angle perfectly. Strangely, I'm good at manual crossing and in a match yesterday, I hit the woodwork 4 times from crosses.
 
bluewomble88 said:
I'm on SA1 for now.
I don't play ML, just league competitions.

Manual passing feels great when you get it right but I am finding it so hard to maintain any consistency. In the final third, the defenders cover every angle perfectly. Strangely, I'm good at manual crossing and in a match yesterday, I hit the woodwork 4 times from crosses.
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Well isn't that where skill comes in bluewomble? That's the whole point of manual .. . it's more natural and hit and miss just like real football. . .every pass can't be perfect .. .it's down to the user. . .but what a feeling when you split a defense apart with a pinpoint pass for a goal. Crossing can be a lottery . .a defender can make a mess of jumping for a ball and miss. . allowing you to receive and score.
 
Deco said:
Well isn't that where skill comes in bluewomble? That's the whole point of manual .. . it's more natural and hit and miss just like real football. . .every pass can't be perfect .. .it's down to the user. . .but what a feeling when you split a defense apart with a pinpoint pass for a goal. Crossing can be a lottery . .a defender can make a mess of jumping for a ball and miss. . allowing you to receive and score.
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Yes I agree. But when you're playing against Leeds and they are pinging it about like Madrid whilst you struggle to find an attacker not 10 yards ahead, the fun disappears very quickly.
 
bluewomble88 said:
Yes I agree. But when you're playing against Leeds and they are pinging it about like Madrid whilst you struggle to find an attacker not 10 yards ahead, the fun disappears very quickly.
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Yeh you're right I had that on Superstar.. . couldn't get a sniff of the ball yet they could take it off me with ease and ping it around . . but that's more about scripting than the fact of playing manual. It's up to yourself but manual does become easier with time . .I thought I'd never get used to it .. now I wouldn't go back to assisted.
 
@bluewomble mate try this unless you already have, manual passing and basic shooting and on professional, before I used to have it on manual passing and manual shooting and I really struggled to score cos I was struggling to create chances to shoot on goal, weird thing is when you go to basic shooting the game isn't as hard and you create a lot more oppurtunities, also focus on the team roles your players have, it's makes a huge difference on how your team plays especially with your TS, even putting a shit player with TS boosting you'll be amazed how much better your team gels with him on, and one more thing try a variety of strikers till you find one that connects well with your midfield, this game requires a lot of observing, good luck
 
Iv just finished my 9th season with west ham and my final thoughts on the game are still strong as to when I first bought it, this game truly is brilliant, there's a lot of indivisible stats which u need to observe on the pitch which is one thing that keeps me playing this game a lot as well the individuality, I understand some guys get frustrated by the AI when your players play like Amateurs, what Iv done and does work, as soon as you see one player do a stupid pass or freeze or whatever it is, kick the ball out and do a substitution, u can see the signs earlier before you cop a goal and that has helped me overcome that but I also strongly agree what several guys here have mentioned, variety in all areas is a must in pes18 and no excuses for a real deep master league as well as high end presentation and regen players is very lazy, why can't they copy something similar like FM, but for now I can see myself playing this all year long. Good stuff
 
Sorry, Ive quoted the wrong message.

I really dont think that tactics are good this year. Or it is good but is way too simplistic and dumbed down. Now its all about a click and your team can counter like Barca no matter wich team you are using. What I mean is, if I want to play on counter, first I must have one or two talented players, a skillful passer and faster player to position and set their attack and defence awareness to stay up in the attack. All must be setup by user, not just switch on to make my team perfectly counter attack.
Back on NBA 2K exemple, I have switch on the plays markers, because I dont have the knowledge about some basketball plays. This is the level of realism that PES should achieve . This game is becoming very dumbed down every year.
But, maybe the industry dont want this kind of realism anymore. One example of this is F1 games .
 
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I think the tactics and the gameplay are fucking brilliant. HOWEVER my overall impression of this game is SHIT! You know why, try playing with another human against the cpu and you will want to throw the controller against the screen. The game is broken in this mode. If you pass to a player that your opposite human hasnt taken control of, the player runs away from the pass and you lose possesion. Every fucking time. They have to fix this, when the 2 v cpu clicks it is amazing, but this kills the game for me.
 
I just got the game for the PS3 a few weeks ago and am having a blast with it. I had been playing PES 5 and 6 on my old PS2 for ages until I picked this one up. While it is not perfect I think it is their best effort to date. Aside from graphics and option file availability is there much difference between the PS3 and PS4 version?
 
Player switching needs to be worked on. You can't pick the closest player to the dribbler sometimes and makes it really hard to stop some easy goals because of it :/
 
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