PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

[Houldey]

The problem with the guys picking it apart (Chris, romanogli et al.) is that they assume their opinions are the 'right' ones. By that I mean that KONAMI should agree with them and fix the issues. romanogli's earlier post could almost be reduced to "stupid people can't see the problems", if one wanted to be harsh.

If KONAMI were to tailor PES to these few people there would be no money for a PES2018 (low sales), which would upset the vast majority and KONAMI too. It's fine to analyse the game as much as you want, but to imply that fixes for the various problems that you perceive (which are pretty much subjective) could only benefit the majority is not logical as there's no evidence to suggest that. Sometimes you should accept that you are part of a tiny minority and not expect yourself to be catered for individually.

 

[bluewomble88]

I doubt anyone would even notice the DM thing if Matt didn't make a video about it and shared it here. I mean, looking at positions in the radar than looking at their behavior in replays. Is the positioning really that bad, do you guys even feel it affecting your play? Does it affect so much on a 10-15 minute game? I understand people complaining about fouls, goalies and stuffs because you can feel the affect directly. I remember Adam saying that people nowadays are over analyzing things (even trailers) that it's scary.

This is exactly my point.

One of the reasons I moved on from 5 to 6 is because the AI just didn't attack me enough - something that seems present in the 2017 demo, but I hope that will be ironed out. Something like that I noticed by myself; I didn't have to go looking for it. When I switched up to PES 6 I found the AI a lot more aggressive, which is what I was looking for. However, others said it felt like an arcade dribble-fest. Konami can't please everyone.

In terms of the critical analysis of the DM role - I can understand people mentioning a DM not being in the right areas during attack and defence if it was widespread and hugely out of place. I don't think anyone can truly say that's happening so consistently, so to then go so in-depth with a tooth-comb seems unfairly harsh, and I therefore understand Adam when he says some people over-analyse everything. I just feel the more you do that, the more you are denying yourself the entertainment the product is trying to offer.

 

[fernadez]

The DM thing does make a difference though, the positioning of that one player can change a game from a midfield battle to a game which is just constant counter attacks. FIFA goes the opposite way in which none of your midfielders will sit and produces the same result. DM tactically is probably the most important position on the pitch and there should be the aim of representing it properly.

I doubt anyone would even notice the DM thing if Matt didn't make a video about it and shared it here. I mean, looking at positions in the radar than looking at their behavior in replays. Is the positioning really that bad, do you guys even feel it affecting your play? Does it affect so much on a 10-15 minute game? I understand people complaining about fouls, goalies and stuffs because you can feel the affect directly. I remember Adam saying that people nowadays are over analyzing things (even trailers) that it's scary.

 

[bluewomble88]

The DM thing does make a difference though, the positioning of that one player can change a game from a midfield battle to a game which is just constant counter attacks.

This would be a fair statement in my opinion if it was happening all the time. It isn't, and we're only playing with a very small number of tactics too.

 

[RAMAXWY]

 

[fernadez]

This would be a fair statement in my opinion if it was happening all the time. It isn't, and we're only playing with a very small number of tactics too.

Very fair point. I thought that this discussion was based on what we're seeing in the demo? People are saying it's the greatest game ever based on the same parameters.

 

[bluewomble88]

Very fair point. I thought that this discussion was based on what we're seeing in the demo? People are saying it's the greatest game ever based on the same parameters.

That is also a fair point. I don't get that either. It's a very promising game based on the demo, but let's not swing too far one way or the other until the full game has been played to death first.

 

[PRO_TOO]

nothing new to me in that video.. more details on the in-game edit part of the game would be nice.

 

[RAMAXWY]

nothing new to me in that video.. more details on the in-game edit part of the game would be nice.

didn't know you could also get it for free if you want to do the installing yourself so that's great.
but it does sound tempting to just plug and play

 

[Elja]

The DM thing does make a difference though, the positioning of that one player can change a game from a midfield battle to a game which is just constant counter attacks. FIFA goes the opposite way in which none of your midfielders will sit and produces the same result. DM tactically is probably the most important position on the pitch and there should be the aim of representing it properly.

It is true if you analyze it that way.. but did you really noticed it if matt didn't make the video? The thing about PES is that the AI behavior changes all the time, you can play two team with the same exact match settings and tactics and have a totally different game if you replay the match. I also saw Matt's video about how the DM behavior suddenly was fixed, this is what PES is like. Unlike FIFA when you can set a certain slider and all team will fallow the values, PES is more unpredictable. You can analyze all you want from one match, but it may be very different when you play another. Not to mention the difference from exhibition matches and master league where the scripting will play part.

PS: Sorry if I mentioned you a lot Matt, I'm a big fan of you're work. it's just coming back to you because of your videos. Cheers mate!

 

[PRO_TOO]

didn't know you could also get it for free if you want to do the installing yourself so that's great.
but it does sound tempting to just plug and play

this is a one time job! if its not me, someone will download for free, put all that stuff into folders and reupload again (for other users with usb stick already at home)! easy as pie!
if youre in need for a new usb stick anyway then you can do nothing wrong with ordering from pesuniverse.

 

[fernadez]

Yeah I did notice it, like I said when you attack, lose the ball and then the cpu is on your back four immediately it's hard not to. That's why it's such s important position in football, it allows your full backs to push on with security, it provides a base for attacks and so on.

I haven't even watched the video, but I did see the screen shots he posted. A DM too deep or too high can break an entire formation.

It is true if you analyze it that way.. but did you really noticed it if matt didn't make the video? The thing about PES is that the AI behavior changes all the time, you can play two team with the same exact match settings and tactics and have a totally different game if you replay the match. I also saw Matt's video about how the DM behavior suddenly was fixed, this is what PES is like. Unlike FIFA when you can set a certain slider and all team will fallow the values, PES is more unpredictable. You can analyze all you want from one match, but it may be very different when you play another. Not to mention the difference from exhibition matches and master league where the scripting will play part.

PS: Sorry if I mentioned you a lot Matt, I'm a big fan of you're work. it's just coming back to you because of your videos. Cheers mate!

 

[RAMAXWY]

this is a one time job! if its not me, someone will download for free, put all that stuff into folders and reupload again (for other users with usb stick already at home)! easy as pie!
if youre in need for a new usb stick anyway then you can do nothing wrong with ordering from pesuniverse.

hahahaaaaa, good point.

 

[gerd]

also, i havent seen one drop of rain splash off the net in rainy weather as boasted in their press release. multiple angles, multiple replays...am i playing the wrong demo?

I hope this is a joke...

Chris, while i often don't agree with Zee (with all due respect of course, my opinion isn't "better" than his), it's post like these that are imo more damaging than not.

I agree that discussion is a good thing, but there are people who are far too negative.

In fact, i'm quite certain that Konami doesn't listen to this forums anymore because in the past there was waaay too much negativity.

IMO this would notbe very sensible from Konami and the development team, but i kind of understand them...you only have to look at the posts about Adam Bhatti on this site...they are so personal...

Like Always, the idiots are spoiling things for the sensible people...

 

[geeeeee]

I've ordered mine already on a USB. I can fully understand why they are charging as these things take time. Really looking forward to Klash's tactics. One question though is how do they get it all done so quick? On day of release?

Looking forward to this this year.

Regarding picking out faults in games. If I'm honest I didn't see any of the faults in PES5 when it first came out. It was only years later when I joined forum's like evoweb and I began reading old posts that I realised that the CPU very rarely bought my players in ML. I was enjoying FIFA16 until I read that custom tactics don't work for CPU teams and all teams play the same and now that bugs me. One year I may avoid these forums until I have made my own mind up about the games.

 

[Elja]

Yeah I did notice it, like I said when you attack, lose the ball and then the cpu is on your back four immediately it's hard not to. That's why it's such s important position in football, it allows your full backs to push on with security, it provides a base for attacks and so on.

I haven't even watched the video, but I did see the screen shots he posted. A DM too deep or too high can break an entire formation.

Ok mate, fair play if you noticed it and that affects your play. I just think we can't analyze the AI behavior from a match, let alone a certain moment in one match.

 

[romagnoli]

The problem with the guys picking it apart (Chris, romanogli et al.) is that they assume their opinions are the 'right' ones. By that I mean that KONAMI should agree with them and fix the issues. romanogli's earlier post could almost be reduced to "stupid people can't see the problems", if one wanted to be harsh.

If KONAMI were to tailor PES to these few people there would be no money for a PES2018 (low sales), which would upset the vast majority and KONAMI too. It's fine to analyse the game as much as you want, but to imply that fixes for the various problems that you perceive (which are pretty much subjective) could only benefit the majority is not logical as there's no evidence to suggest that. Sometimes you should accept that you are part of a tiny minority and not expect yourself to be catered for individually.

Again, a fallacious argument. You don't even know what my position is!

What we do know objectively is that EA have spent years adding in systems for passing error, touch error, shot error, better physicality etc. Some of it has literally been because people here at Evo-Web have asked for it, and I've directly supplied it to their senior developers. And they seem to be doing alright for sales. In fact one or two of the key blindspots their game has (although they have tried to improve them over the years) are things that PES holds up as their key advantage, and are things we're talking about and trying to understand here!



You don't know what I'm arguing for. You think it's just for realism, or for something hardcore and only accessible to people like me. What's that based on?

What I want is for there to be depth as well as balance. And I want it all to be intuitive, so that, rather than needing a ridiculous number of buttons to do anything, it is all either stuff you can see and know and recognise from real football, or it's stuff you can intuit over time and subconsciously pick up. If you know about football then that should give you an advantage. There should be as few exploits as possible because that reduces possibilities, increases predictability and frustration.

The reason I keep referring to football when I want stuff improved is because it's the subject matter, and because the solutions to so many PES problems already exists in the real game. We don't have to break passing for 90% of players in order to have passing variety. We don't have to kill shooting in order to avoid every shot being a rocket.

We can either identify things which can be improved to make the game even better, and think about why they would or wouldn't work. Or we can just shove our hands in our pockets, shrug our shoulders, and say "well if you want realistic football go out in the park with a ball".

 

[Elja]

Regarding picking out faults in games. If I'm honest I didn't see any of the faults in PES5 when it first came out. It was only years later when I joined forum's like evoweb and I began reading old posts that I realised that the CPU very rarely bought my players in ML. I was enjoying FIFA16 until I read that custom tactics don't work for CPU teams and all teams play the same and now that bugs me. One year I may avoid these forums until I have made my own mind up about the games.

Totally agree with you geeee... I remember the days when PES was only about having a great time with mates and not being too worried about foot planting and stuff. Reading discussion, debates, and other peoples view on the game could really kill the fun and get in your head. Like someone posted here before saying "If you want to enjoy PES 2016, don't read evo-web", this could be applied with other pes series hehe..

 

[Bravez]

The PES community was always hailed for its analysis of even the smallest video back in the day. It seems that now the game isn't as good as it once was, the view on it has also changed. Now rather than being a strength, it's become a stick to beat the "negative community" with.

I'm personally nowhere near as observant as guys like Matt so I don't notice these things. With that in mind, I just avoid those videos and the discussions on it and I'm unaffected. Going into that level of detail is brilliant and can only be good for the series if its taken note of. It's very easy to avoid if you think it's too far or too negative, so do so.

 

[Chris Davies]

The problem with the guys picking it apart (Chris, romanogli et al.) is that they assume their opinions are the 'right' ones. By that I mean that KONAMI should agree with them and fix the issues.

I'm not doing that.

Matt posted some videos with his opinions and someone shot them down as having "little sense". I'd like to hear everyone's opinion. Rather than people asking that others don't share theirs because they don't care about analysis personally.

romanogli's earlier post could almost be reduced to "stupid people can't see the problems", if one wanted to be harsh.

That was in response to the post from this morning where Matt's essay was followed up by "so many words, so little sense", from someone who confessed to having no interest in the content. He's not saying "stupid", that's not the context. He's saying that you can play the game and enjoy it without the analysis (as people are clearly doing), as well as letting the people who analyse it enjoy themselves.

I agree that discussion is a good thing, but there are people who are far too negative.

People who are "far too negative", the guys who are constantly posting that they think the game is rubbish without any explanation - or even the guys who do have an explanation but just repeat the same "I don't like it" message over and over... That's trolling, and we ban those guys.

Constructive criticism, especially when it's backed up with videos and an investigation into the mechanics to find out and report how they react, though... That's a very good thing, and I'm genuinely chuffed to be part of a community that loves the game so much that they'll break it down to that level and compare it to real-life. (Again, if it was a comparison to real-life in terms of "look how realistic this bit is", nobody would be complaining.)

In fact, i'm quite certain that Konami doesn't listen to this forums anymore because in the past there was waaay too much negativity.

I think they've just discovered - on Twitter, too - that a lot of people have different complaints and it's easier to just ignore all of it. As Bluewomble pointed out before, you've got guys saying "the goalkeepers are rubbish", "the goalkeepers are too good" and "the goalkeepers are exactly the same".

Which is why, when someone like Matt comes along and provides video evidence of what he's spotted along with some real-life comparisons to back it up, I think it's invaluable. If enough people agree and retweet it, tagging in Konami each time, they might listen - whereas the people who individually say "goaleez R shit lol", or myself saying "why aren't Tranmere in the game", will always be ignored.

 

[zeemeister]

That's a terrible argument. Stop playing games because they have flaws? Come on. If that's the case, as a gamer who "enjoys their hobby properly", why are you buying PES 2017? PES 2016 is a football game, why isn't that enough for you? It has flaws but who cares, right?

The GTA example is a terrible one too, sports games are designed to recreate reality. If it was all about fun, we'd all be playing Mario Strikers Charged on the Wii and talking about whether Bowser or Mario is better up-front.

You were even one of the guys saying Superstar was too easy not long ago; now you're arguing against someone pointing out one of the reasons why! "So many words so little sense"? Why are you insulting someone for looking at the mechanics of a game they love? What's wrong with trying to help make the perfect football game? Nobody's forcing you to think about this stuff.

Wow that is a little naughty of you taking that out of context

Of course continuous improvement is required, of course we will never have the perfect game but things must be improved going forward
Care to discuss the other points I made as they kind of decribe what I meant?

In fact, your response kind of typifies what my argument is. Not everyone can be pleased with everything all the time but if you going to expend your energy focusing on the negatives you are not going to find any joy in games. Some things have to be overlooked unfortunately, if you cant then move on no sense harping on it.

BTW we are still discussing the demo right?

 

[Lami]

That's a terrible argument. Stop playing games because they have flaws? Come on. If that's the case, as a gamer who "enjoys their hobby properly", why are you buying PES 2017? PES 2016 is a football game, why isn't that enough for you? It has flaws but who cares, right?

The GTA example is a terrible one too, sports games are designed to recreate reality. If it was all about fun, we'd all be playing Mario Strikers Charged on the Wii and talking about whether Bowser or Mario is better up-front.

You were even one of the guys saying Superstar was too easy not long ago; now you're arguing against someone pointing out one of the reasons why! "So many words so little sense"? Why are you insulting someone for looking at the mechanics of a game they love? What's wrong with trying to help make the perfect football game? Nobody's forcing you to think about this stuff.

For the record, It's Mario

 

[P34SEMM]

This is the one ive ordered. The game (£32 on shopto as gold member), plus £9.99 option file still works out cheaper than Fifa17

 

[Matt10]

Thanks everyone for the positive comments and those who do comment about my findings. I think Chris should be my spokesman as he's much more articulate - my mind moves fast that the keyboard typing lags behind too often.

The purpose of my videos are not to "expose" or to belittle KONAMI's efforts, the aim is to address some key fundamentals that get lost in translation. My thinking is if they really want to harp on these advanced instructions/tactics, then let's make sure they have the base of football first. I called it a mile away that if Step 1 of having football as a base was skipped, or paid little attention to, then there is no way Step 2 - tactics/advanced instructions, would work properly.

That's exactly what is showing in the demo.

The thing is, my arguments would not hurt anyone. I focus on the CPU's positioning and overall attitude. Because, as an offline player, the CPU's play is what matters the most. Anyone who argues that the user can adjust this, that and the other, has forgotten how a beautiful game can be scarred if the CPU doesn't play right.

I mean honestly, who would be hurt if this picture was fixed...

Arsenal-CPU, User-Corinthians. Arsenal attacking, 50th minute, keeper makes a save, loose ball, defender controls.

You lose. As the User, you lose the experience of properly getting the crap beaten out of you. A defender who doesn't clear the ball and is able to freely dribble out of their own box...yes, that feels like charity. If it happens once, it will happen again.

Corinthians-CPU, User-River Plate. Corinthians attacking, in possession, 26th minute, ball is just outside of the box.

The defensive midfielder's role is to support the attack and the defense. You talk about formations or advanced instructions? Like every DM in the game goes and picks butterflies with his friends as if he's my 3-year old learning pee wee soccer.

What logical purpose does he serve here? Again, if it happens once, it will happen again.

Barcelona-CPU, User-Corinthians. Corinthians just tackled the ball from Messi at the top of the box.

Barcelona "pressing". A proper press is cutting off angles, aggressively, it's not taking ridiculous sharp angles at full speed. Whoever says this is a proper press, is mistaking it for over-commitment. My college coach would have us run wind sprints after a match if he saw this. "Might as well since that's definitely not defending".

Three areas that can be improved, and should. It wouldn't take anything away from the experience, if anything it would enhance it. Nothing is nitpicky here, it's all very much common sense.

I think we are all part of the same collective mind that 1. We are absolutely excited for the full game, and 2. We want the absolute best experience. Why? Like I've been saying, this demo was so good and we have been burned before, so whatever can be a focus to improve it, unlike PES 16, let's take that opportunity. KONAMI listen to their communities, they're a good group of guys there, and I'm confident these areas are adjustments that could be made fairly easily.

Lastly, if I hadn't pointed these out, and they were fixed anyways, would you really have cared? No. But I guarantee you, you'd have a lot more accountability to your play-style when the CPU starts to giving you a run for your money. Then these difficulty levels would truly matter, and people would be talking about how Superstar is actually harder than Top Player and Professional.

 

[robbieryan]

didn't know you could also get it for free if you want to do the installing yourself so that's great.
but it does sound tempting to just plug and play

The 'installation' as in the actual application of the files to the game itself would surely be the same with the paid version and the free version? you're literally paying £4.99 for the convenience of not having to do half hour of file/folder organisation...

...well i think anyway, nobody actually knows, i wont be paying anything until its confirmed that's for sure

 

[bluewomble88]

In fact, your response kind of typifies what my argument is. Not everyone can be pleased with everything all the time but if you going to expend your energy focusing on the negatives you are not going to find any joy in games. Some things have to be overlooked unfortunately, if you cant then move on no sense harping on it.

Good point. This has always been my biggest problem with game (or movie, music) reviews - it is, essentially, the opinion of one person. I remember reading a review for Batman Arkham Knight where the guy writing about it focussed so much on the Batmobile sections being so poor. Fair enough I thought, but when I bought the game I found those levels to be absolutely fine. In essence, I may have missed that game altogether had I not listened to my instincts. I got the feeling the reviewer almost wanted the game to be awful from the start - he's probably a Marvel fan!

So yes, by all means point out the negatives but perspective is important. Slating a whole project for one or two issues isn't fair, especially based on a demo.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Good point. This has always been my biggest problem with game (or movie, music) reviews - it is, essentially, the opinion of one person. I remember reading a review for Batman Arkham Knight where the guy writing about it focussed so much on the Batmobile sections being so poor. Fair enough I thought, but when I bought the game I found those levels to be absolutely fine. In essence, I may have missed that game altogether had I not listened to my instincts. I got the feeling the reviewer almost wanted the game to be awful from the start - he's probably a Marvel fan!

So yes, by all means point out the negatives but perspective is important. Slating a whole project for one or two issues isn't fair, especially based on a demo.

unless your a Marvel fan hahahaaaaaaa

 

[Chris Davies]

Wow that is a little naughty of you taking that out of context

You said...

Jeepers so many words so little sense.

What context am I missing? If I said your response was "a lot of words and no sense", you'd be pissed off, I imagine.

If you're not interested in the analysis or you feel that it's overboard, fair enough. But I enjoy it, and others do too. Easy enough to ignore it without resorting to comments like that.

As my mum always said...

Spoiler

Good point. This has always been my biggest problem with game (or movie, music) reviews

But videos like Matt's aren't reviews... They're observations backed up with evidence based on subject matter we have access to every weekend. They're still opinions but they're backed up with evidence to prove his points. They're technical observation videos relating to software that is trying to emulate reality (AND be fun, yes, in equal measure).

It would make no sense to review Ghostbusters and say "here's some video evidence of me hunting for real ghosts - you see how they always scatter north but they don't in the film?"... That's comparing apples to oranges.

A complaint of "it's too hard to score", "it's too hard to score against Barcelona", "it's so hard to score that it isn't realistic"... They're all (the same) opinions, but they're not providing evidence. If it was me, for example, it would just be because I'm shit at the game. That's not the game's fault.

But a complaint of "it's too hard to score because I've noticed Barcelona do this, and here are several videos of me failing to score, and videos of their defence doing this repeatedly with me trying different approaches or editing different attributes, and here are several videos of Barcelona in real life in this situation showing that they very rarely defend with ten at the back"... That's providing evidence of something, and that's the game's fault, whether it makes any difference to your experience or not.

 

[romagnoli]

I think they've just discovered - on Twitter, too - that a lot of people have different complaints and it's easier to just ignore all of it. As Bluewomble pointed out before, you've got guys saying "the goalkeepers are rubbish", "the goalkeepers are too good" and "the goalkeepers are exactly the same".

Which is why, when someone like Matt comes along and provides video evidence of what he's spotted along with some real-life comparisons to back it up, I think it's invaluable. If enough people agree and retweet it, tagging in Konami each time, they might listen - whereas the people who individually say "goaleez R shit lol", or myself saying "why aren't Tranmere in the game", will always be ignored.

This is it. Konami won't listen to each and every post, comment or complaint. You have to actually explain what you mean so that a dev going in cold can understand what you mean, with clear (ideally video) examples.

To a large extent it's down to community figures to pick up people's feedback, make sure it's meaningful, and then pass that on in a usable format. Otherwise it's just someone at Konami having to trawl through twitter.

 

[Houldey]

this is a one time job! if its not me, someone will download for free, put all that stuff into folders and reupload again (for other users with usb stick already at home)! easy as pie!
if youre in need for a new usb stick anyway then you can do nothing wrong with ordering from pesuniverse.

Or worse, somebody will re-sell PESUniverse's work on eBay.