PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

Chris Davies said:
Ah, sorry - it's just that you said "morally wrong" in your post. I disagree with that (and I'd be gutted to charge for it and find out someone had uploaded it somewhere for everyone to grab for free, especially when all the individual content in the package is going to be available for free as I understand it).
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I added to my post sorry!

zeemeister said:
Oh look you brought placebo along. Now we are fucked :LOL:
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LOL It's ok I'm not here to discuss PES per se, I love that you (or anyone else) love the game, I'm a misunderstood individual I swear ;) I have no issues with the PS4 version of the game, in fact I'm gutted I had to leave my PS4 at the summerhouse so can't try the demo, its the PC version and the way Konami treat the PC platform I have a problem with which wouldn't be relevant here anyway :)
 
zeemeister said:
...you always seem to side with people who are critical of PES. It's far too obvious mate.
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I'm trying to protect opinion, mate, on a message board that was created for people to discuss the game, and I try to make sure nobody feels offended for having an opinion that's different from someone else's - especially those who devote their time to putting something together for the community.

You're saying I "always side with the critics"... What situation is there ever going to be where someone is the opposite of a critic, writing an essay about everything the game does right - how unique each team feels to play against, the individuality of each player, everything the game nails now more than ever - followed by someone saying "so many words so little sense, just play the game"? And do you seriously think in that situation, I'd side with the "critic"?
 
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romagnoli said:
This is a straw man argument. Nobody's arguing over pixels of difference. Everybody's looking for realism up to a point, without sacrificing fun. It's just that they're more willing to put the effort in to find that point than you.

They're arguing about the principle of how the game positions players, how a tactic works versus what it's trying to represent in real life, how the game flows as the ball is won or lost. It's not just fancy shit that we have no business getting involved in, and it's not a needless embellishment which doesn't really change anything - it's the difference between having two or three defenders when a team counters. It's not pedantry to point that out.

For the record I think it's fine that the DM is joining the CBs - it's Konami trying to represent a specific tactic in a way that produces more team individuality, and it might not work for every team but it's cool and unique that they're including stuff like this and the false fullbacks. Over time I'm sure Konami will add more advanced tactics, maybe making this specific thing about a DM dropping back into a more generic attacking option just like asking CBs to go up for free kicks.

It's not pedantry to identify that the CPU automatically switches from ATK-DEF level 4 to 2 the millisecond it loses the ball, thereby stopping the attackers from maintaining pressure up the pitch. It's something which would make significant improvements to the game without costing anything more than the time it takes to code in a 3-5 second timer and do a quick bit of QA to ensure that it works.

Also, just because there's a variety of opinions doesn't mean that it's futile trying to find the best way to do things. There's a very easy solution to that problem, which is to (a) understand that all opinions are not equal, and (b) that people's observations are more important than the conclusions they draw from them.


I get that some people don't really want to participate in discussions like this, or feel like it's all a bit over their head, or that they can't make a distinction between enjoying a game and seeing the need for improvement in certain areas. Some people have more analytical mindsets than others - sometimes to a fault, where they try to spot patterns without enough data or enough isolation of the variable they're trying to test for. Some people are happy to leave things mysterious and not ever really know.

But it's a primitive argument to say that the choice is either (a) to enjoy the game or (b) to work out what it's doing. They're not mutually exclusive, and it's anti-intellectualist rubbish to suggest that there's no place for (b) or that it doesn't actually yield any benefits when some people stand out from the crowd and put the effort in to explain where improvements should be made.
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This is spot on. I know everything has basically been said regarding this argument but I just wanted to throw in one more piece since I came in late.

I can honestly see both sides of the argument. The one I fall under (Matt's) and others that are saying if you expect a perfect football game, you're going to be greatly disappointed. I honestly need people pointing this out because I can be so analytic and critical that I forget this from time to time, so I actually want to thank these people, I just wish certain ones didn't do it with such an attacking tone.

With that being said here's what I don't understand. People who say you can't please everybody, if Konami fixed one thing they'd mess up something for someone else etc...THEY ACTUALLY CAN! Any game really can! SLIDERS! This game desperately needs sliders, games in general desperately need more editing options so that if you wanted to play breakneck speed football you could! If you Leicester to play as slow as Barca does in real life, you can! And if I want Busquets to be slightly higher up the pitch when we attack, I can do this.

This is next gen and we're about to be in 2017. We have the abilities to provide this. Look at the wealth of customization and slider options 2k possesses. They come pretty freakin close to a perfect basketball game. All I'm saying is I want that same feeling with a footy game.

2k can please just about anybody, with just a few swipes of the left analog stick. The have a "simulation" setting, a "default" setting, and an "arcade" setting. I just want to play a "simulation superstar" Pes. I know this is asking for a lot, and even though I don't think we're there yet, I do think it's possible. Which is why I enjoy when Matt points out any nuances that I might not have noticed. What I personally need to remember, is that I'm going to enjoy this game regardless. :))
 
zeemeister said:
Also I need to add this and probably incorrectly so as it goes against my better judgement right now but you always seem to side with people who are critical of PES. It's far too obvious mate.
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The problem with being squarely in the middle is that people either side of you think you're too far the other way.
 
The funny thing about this Option File being sold is that nobody actually knows yet what possibilities this year's Edit Mode will offer. They said themselves in a response to a Youtube comment: "If we knew that we would tell you but unfortunately the edit mode process hasn't been shared. All we know is its alot easier this year."

So basically they are selling something they don't have the rights for and they didn't even start to work on yet? And people are actually buying it? That's insane.
 
PrivatelyEducated said:
The quality of argumentation from the anti-intellectual side of the debate is appalling even by internet forum standards. To even think or imply that potential improvements should not be identified and flagged up because any attempt to fix the issue in question might cause more harm than good is an outrageous surrender of your critical faculties and shows an astonishing lack of faith in the aptitude of the developers. We'd be better off if we were ignorant, seems to be the message. Actions which challenge this ignorance must have inherently bad motives, despite the fact that the PES community has a long history of analysing and finding areas which could be further evolved even when the game was at its highest point. This relativist, post-modernist, all opinions are equal rubbish needs to be extirpated from public consciousness. If you disagree with an observation the way to argue it is incorrect is to point out why it is incorrect, not to fall back to the tedious cliche of "everyone has different opinions". Sorry but tough, if something is objectively wrong or contradicts reality in a reliably demonstrable way then it should be brought to the fore in the hope it can be improved upon. Instead of telling someone to stop playing football games why don't you stop visiting internet forums? If you want to remain holed up in a cave of ignorance the internet is not the place for you, you are going to see opinions which you may disagree with, and you are just going to have to deal with it.
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Has one of the guys on here got an alter ego to tell us how thick we all are. . . . ..great way to get it off your chest.
 
PrivatelyEducated said:
The quality of argumentation from the anti-intellectual side of the debate is appalling even by internet forum standards. To even think or imply that potential improvements should not be identified and flagged up because any attempt to fix the issue in question might cause more harm than good is an outrageous surrender of your critical faculties and shows an astonishing lack of faith in the aptitude of the developers. We'd be better off if we were ignorant, seems to be the message. Actions which challenge this ignorance must have inherently bad motives, despite the fact that the PES community has a long history of analysing and finding areas which could be further evolved even when the game was at its highest point. This relativist, post-modernist, all opinions are equal rubbish needs to be extirpated from public consciousness. If you disagree with an observation the way to argue it is incorrect is to point out why it is incorrect, not to fall back to the tedious cliche of "everyone has different opinions". Sorry but tough, if something is objectively wrong or contradicts reality in a reliably demonstrable way then it should be brought to the fore in the hope it can be improved upon. Instead of telling someone to stop playing football games why don't you stop visiting internet forums? If you want to remain holed up in a cave of ignorance the internet is not the place for you, you are going to see opinions which you may disagree with, and you are just going to have to deal with it.
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WAFFLE
 
Deco said:
Has one of the guys on here got an alter ego to tell us how thick we all are. . . . ..great way to get it off your chest.
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The first thing I did when I saw the username and the join date (i.e. an hour ago) was do an IP lookup. No matches, but definitely an alter-ego, which isn't allowed, whatever the point being made. The post has been deleted and the user banned.

I'd like to think this helps to prove mods are truly "in the middle" as Romagnoli said, but, probably not...
 
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Chris Davies said:
The first thing I did when I saw the username and the join date (i.e. an hour ago) was look at the IP address and do a lookup. No matches, but definitely an alter-ego, which isn't allowed, whatever the point being made.

I'd like to think this helps to prove mods are truly "in the middle" as Romagnoli said, but, probably not...
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I hope that IP address isn't yours lol.
 
Deco said:
I hope that IP address isn't yours lol.
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Sigh, I was waiting for that... The other mods can verify, the user details (including IP address) never go away... I can upload dashcam footage of my journey home from work at the same time that the post was made if necessary (though I imagine I'd be accused of putting together that essay while stopped at some traffic lights or something)..........
 
I've genuinely enjoyed things people have posted about how Atleti press, and how they defend when deep. I've enjoyed things that people have posted about DMs.

What I always loved about this site is that, while everyone has opinions, a lot of people are also very good at expressing them. I remember that PES 2011 is what got me really into reading about football tactics, into things like ZonalMarking.net and Inverting The Pyramid. As a result I loved how in PES 2011 I felt like I could get a real advantage in a match before we'd even selected kick-off. In the years since I've leant more towards FIFA because too much about PES felt broken, gameable or imbalanced enough to decouple it from real football in my mind.

I hate thinking of PES or FIFA as 'just' a game, because to me and to most readers here, they merge with my love of football. It's like a second screen to my passion for the actual sport, something which cements and develops my interest rather than something which feeds off my love of football without giving anything back.

Being more than a game doesn't require that it be brutally hard or overly complicated - it needs the basic principles of football, simple controls, that individuality of players and teams, depth, spontaneity, and balance. Something which has all of these can be both a quick post-pub game and a holy-shit-it's-3am experience.

I'm really, seriously hoping that 2017 will be good enough for me to love playing for a good 5, 6 months. Not just because then I'd have a great PES to play again, but because it gets me closer to football itself.

PS it's not me - I had to google what extirpate was. And I went to the University of Life. (Well, Bath.)
 
elouiht said:
https://mobile.twitter.com/ArabGameNetwork/status/773586284040318976/video/1
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Love this guy, anyone else would just show video of random matches, but he's going through all of the edit stuff first. Brilliant.

The "Changing Managers" option, is that just what they're calling the manager edit function now, or has it changed? The name suggests to me that you can assign a different manager as opposed to having to edit "over" them when the manager changes, which would be niiice.
 
bluewomble88 said:
It's the same every year. Geeee, you'll remember all that time we spent trying to get PES 5 and 6 to play better. In the end my infatuation with that completely replaced the enjoyment I was getting from playing the game. Over the last couple of years I've just accepted that I'm older now and, in the grand scheme of things, a very good football game is good enough for the limited time I get to play it in the first place.
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Heh heh yeh, trying to make the CPU play more attacking. Once I got the formula I did enjoy it and I found it quite addictive but it takes sooooo much time. I've still got my half finished option file laying around somewhere. I hope no one's waiting for its release. I supposed I could release it half finished at half the price :P

Played the demo again today after a little break and it really is fantastic. One thing that I really like is the way that you can block shots. In past games I found it quite difficult because the CPU shots would mostly get passed you. But in this i feel quite comfortable getting my defender in the way and deflecting shots everywhere. It gives a more realistic experience and you get those scrambles in the penalty area. I hope I'm explaining it properly.

I really hope that the game plays the same in ML. I have not experienced any scripting as yet. If I concede I feel it was my fault or the CPU played well.

Bluewomble how are you finding the transition from PS2 to PS4? Controller the players with the stick and not the d-pad?
 
Guys don't get me wrong here. I am all for discussing issues hell I haven't been a member of this site for a decade now to talk about the good times only.

It's just every now and then we get on this little shit train and we happily chug along flinging garbage left right and centre to force our points across and dare you disagree you are labelled a heathen who only wants to talk about the positive stuff and ignore the bad, which is ludicrous because not one regular member on this site is like that

I for one do not have the energy to read a 50 pager on your humble up bringings and why you think PES is failed but you truly hope it reaches the heights that it did in its hey day of PES 6 (vomit). Then to ramble on about 20 more pages about what's wrong with current PES.

Saying it's an issue and highlighting a concern is cool but going on and on like a stuck record trying to vindicate what you truly believe with pics videos, power points then spreadsheets maybe warrants a new thread? I don't know but to me it looks like a derail ploy.

Apologies if I offend I love all of you. Xoxo
 
zeemeister said:
Apologies if I offend I love all of you. Xoxo
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Now that's a statement I can agree with. :LOVE:

I log in every day and love the discussion we get on here, the excitement, the analysis, the ML stories. Best place on the web for PES chat. Hearts to you and everybody.

A thread for analysis videos and essays is probably a good idea, let's try that.
 
geeeeee said:
Bluewomble how are you finding the transition from PS2 to PS4? Controller the players with the stick and not the d-pad?
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Fine tbh. I always used the dual sticks on the PS2 so there's hardly any difference. I prefer the triggers at the back but the tiny pause button ("options"?) is annoying.

Not regretting it at all.
 
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