PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

talucchesi said:
The problem here is though when we go to our attacking fullbacks style, Busquets doesn't split the Cb's like he would in Pes. He is playing in a "normal" CDM position with both fullbacks still high up the pitch. Here's a screenshot I grabbed of our last game that kind of demonstrates this...

ULi_0vtg.jpg


Unfortunately, this seems pretty impossible to recreate with this years Pes so far
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Screenshot's not working for me.
 
Loving the advanced shooting, makes the difference between players even more pronounced.

As for that fucking stumble then freeze animation...starting to get to me now, especially when you're losing against Barcelona and have launched a counter attack.

Think the slide tackles are a little overpowered as well actually.
 
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fernadez said:
Loving the advanced shooting, makes the difference between players even more pronounced.

As for that fucking stumble then freeze animation...starting to get to me now, especially when you're losing against Barcelona and have launched a counter attack.

Think the slide tackles are a little overpowered as well actually.
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I remember trying advance shooting in 16 and hit the bar too many times in 17 its just the same, hit the bar 3 times in one game and there is next to no skill involved i dont get any sense of achievement in scoring at all.

Agree with the stumble animation, im seeing it all the time now..I saw four tackles in a row that effectively made me four players down for a second allowing the AI to break free...it's very disengaging
 
Funny enough I just hit the bar missing an open goal, but I'm hoping it's because I forgot to aim in the heat of the moment.

Regarding the slide tackles, I think as well it's that the ref doesn't call some that are obvious fouls. Just got clattered by Sergio and the ref played on.
 
Matt10 said:
I'm not arguing the fact that the tactic exists, or that they are not valid to be used. I'm arguing the fact that the intensity of the tactical adherence being too high in this video game. There is a very big difference there. I never disagreed with the advanced instructions, formations or any particular strategy. What is very clear is that the execution of the tactics are too robotic, at least in the demo, that it actually works against the gameplan. No manager in their right mind would tell Barcelona players to press with 1 player right behind the other. There is such an intensity of that tactic, that it doesn't look like proper pressing...it looks like over-commitment. Which is why you can easily just pass the ball forward to get out of the press. It's that simple.

Theory is all fine, but tactics aren't supposed to be theories in this game, they are supposed to help - and not hurt - those who use them. From what I can see, in the demo, that all that is needed, is to scale down the intensity that players adhere to the tactics, so it doesn't look like they are running around with their heads cut off.
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never had a problem with the tactics in PES i am glad they are there and work. always want my team to play like i want them to play.
looking for a human error in the tactics like you mentioned should mostly come from the human player himself and not from the ai.
that's why getting to grips with the tactics and what suits your type of play is very important. adding too much AI error in it too look human is a bit too much if you ask me.
when i loose i wanna feel like i screwed up and not that the AI screwed me and i feel like that 85% of the time so i don't need it to get less.
what PES achieved in itself tactical wise is brilliant. i really had a hard time breakin down Arsenal and Barcelona in this Demo. passing it around like in your video was do-able but getting through the defense to create chances was very difficult.
against the brasilian teams i had much more succes.
i mostly use River Plate, they really suit my playing style.
having a ball with the demo.
if you asked me i am hoping Konami don't change a thing
 
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RAMAXWY said:
never had a problem with the tactics in PES i am glad they are there and work. always want my team to play like i want them to play.
looking for a human error in the tactics like you mentioned should mostly come from the human player himself and not from the ai.
that's why getting to grips with the tactics and what suits your type of play is very important. adding too much AI error in it too look human is a bit too much if you ask me.
when i loose i wanna feel like i screwed up and not that the AI screwed me and i feel like that 85% of the time so i don't need it to get less.
what PES achieved in itself tactical wise is brilliant. i really had a hard time breakin down Arsenal and Barcelona in this Demo. passing it around like in your video was do-able but getting through the defense to create chances was very difficult.
against the brasilian teams i had much more succes.
i mostly use River Plate, they really suit my playing style.
having a ball with the demo.
if you asked me i am hoping Konami don't change a thing
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It's not about adding AI error, it's about allowing players to play like players, and less like robots. PES do very well at getting tactics to even work in the first place, but they could easily scale it down. The question I have is they did it right at one point in time, in the series, what has changed? I look at the consolidation of Teamwork and other ratings, that have now been lumped in with Attack/Defensive Prowess.

Again, it's just the opinion of the demo, and it could very well be because it's highly limited in the tactical selection, or just the full game code - who knows. Much like most of my videos, once you see these things, you can't unsee it. Superstar & Top Player are ridiculously easy because of this, and that's counter-intuitive, so that should be enough to raise the question.
 
elouiht said:
From pesgaming


Originally Posted by Duck No.99
You don't have to worry about the amount of slots...

As far as I know , there are slots for 1000 kits. I think, it's enough for all the missing kits, at least home, away and GK:

Premier League: 20 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 18 team kits to create: 54 kits
Championship: 24 unlicensed teams -> 24 teams kits to create: 72 kits

Ligue 1 and Ligue 2: completely licensed

Serie A: 20 teams, only two unlicensed teams -> 2 team kits to create: 6 kits
Serie B: 22 unlicensed teams -> 22 team kits to create: 66 kits

Eredivisie: completely licensed

Primera Division: 20 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 18 team kits to create: 54 kits
Segunda Division: 22 unlicensed teams -> 22 team kits to create: 66 kits

Liga NOS: 18 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 16 team kits to create: 48 kits

Liga Brasileirao: completely licensed
Liga Argentina: completely licensed
Liga Chile: completely licensed

League PEU (example: for Bundesliga): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create
League PLA (example: MLS): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create
League PAS (example: J-League,...): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create

(several teams of different leagues already in-game -> reduces number of kits to create)

National teams: 83 teams, +/- 10 licensed teams -> 73-75 team kits to create: 225 kits

Summary:
225 + 60 + 60 + 60 + 48 + 66 + 54 + 66 + 6 + 72 + 54 = 771 kits

ML fake teams: ca. 30 unlicensed teams -> ca. 90 kits

=> 771 + 90 = 861 kits to equip all unlicensed in-game teams

Then we still have around 140 kits for third kits or second GK kits.

So I think, it's better to create kits with a higher resolution of 2048x2048.
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thats only if you use 1024x1024 kit pngs
 
Matt10 said:
It's not about adding AI error, it's about allowing players to play like players, and less like robots. PES do very well at getting tactics to even work in the first place, but they could easily scale it down. The question I have is they did it right at one point in time, in the series, what has changed? I look at the consolidation of Teamwork and other ratings, that have now been lumped in with Attack/Defensive Prowess.

Again, it's just the opinion of the demo, and it could very well be because it's highly limited in the tactical selection, or just the full game code - who knows. Much like most of my videos, once you see these things, you can't unsee it. Superstar & Top Player are ridiculously easy because of this, and that's counter-intuitive, so that should be enough to raise the question.
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personally i don't think the game is easy and didn't see you really prove that either. passing the ball around easily isn't the same as breaking a team down easily.
if what you are saying was correct we would be able to run rings around teams in the Demo (headless chickens)
i had a hard time beating Arsenal with River Plate (succeeded after 4 times) and Barcelona(succeeded after 3 times)
the animations do look robotic when i watch gameplay footage on youtube but when playing it everything looks and feels right( hard to explain)
you mentioned ball physics. personally i think those in FIFA17 look better but i will have to check it out better when the demo comes out.
teams need to feel different in the game, you should feel the pressure when playing against top teams. you should feel the urgency to pass the ball when you are being closed down etc.
all these things are done very well. not with classy animations i give you that but nothing in the past has felt better than what this Demo has produced.
i really wanna feel all the other teams that will be available in the game. it really look to be an awesome year for football gaming fans
 
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Matt10 said:
It's not about adding AI error, it's about allowing players to play like players, and less like robots. PES do very well at getting tactics to even work in the first place, but they could easily scale it down. The question I have is they did it right at one point in time, in the series, what has changed? I look at the consolidation of Teamwork and other ratings, that have now been lumped in with Attack/Defensive Prowess.

Again, it's just the opinion of the demo, and it could very well be because it's highly limited in the tactical selection, or just the full game code - who knows. Much like most of my videos, once you see these things, you can't unsee it. Superstar & Top Player are ridiculously easy because of this, and that's counter-intuitive, so that should be enough to raise the question.
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Do we know this for sure? Are we examining the old games with the same level of scrutiny? If not, it's not fair to the new game. I'm under the impression we've made more progress in PES17 than less, tactically, compared to the old games. But then again, I have not tested the games under the same conditions and held them under the same standards/measurements of scrutiny.

Yes, the stats were there back in PES13...teamwork, chemistry, mentality, tenacity, ....I see there's something even called "positioning"?
Now, do they work as advertise tho? Does it impact actual in-game performance? Do we go in there and look at it frame-by-frame and ask, if it resemble real football? Hopefully it's not also just cosmetic? Since those are the questions we place on PES17 (and 16), which are all valid questions. I think it should be asked about PES13 as well, otherwise, we risk romanticizing the past.

Don't get me wrong, I want the game to be that deep. But I never felt it on that level, in any of the games throughout the years. So I'm not sure if it was ever there at some point.
 
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RAMAXWY said:
never had a problem with the tactics in PES i am glad they are there and work. always want my team to play like i want them to play.
looking for a human error in the tactics like you mentioned should mostly come from the human player himself and not from the ai.
that's why getting to grips with the tactics and what suits your type of play is very important. adding too much AI error in it too look human is a bit too much if you ask me.
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It's not AI screwing you over, it's more like asking for scenarios, where stats will screw you over, coz you couldn't afford to field a better player for that position with better stats to carry out the gameplan. But I do think 17 seem to feel a bit better, for me, it's too early to tell. Need more playing time with it
 
zeemeister said:
Manual shooting I put a ball wide open goal with the keeper lying in his arse. Was very disconcerting :LOL:
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I'm missing absolute sitters. . .it feels like you don't get enough time to steady yourself when shooting. . .I'm not complaining . . .I like the balance in the game.
 
vxcmplx said:
It's not AI screwing you over, it's more like asking for scenarios, where stats will screw you over, coz you couldn't afford to field a better player for that position with better stats to carry out the gameplan. But I do think 17 seem to feel a bit better, for me, it's too early to tell. Need more playing time with it
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well i did feel a very obvious difference when fielding my 78 DM instead of my 75 DM midfielder and my 77 LM instead of my 75 LM when i was River Plate especially when playing Barca and Arsenal( can't remember the players names) so i do think that is present in the Demo. i am willing to bet that if you select another player instead of Alves (off to Juventus) when using Barcelona you will feel the difference in the team also(gonna try and check that out soon)
think of all the teqnical south american teams we can use against the top tier english and spanish teams.
my goodness very mouthwatering indeed.
 
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RAMAXWY said:
well i did feel a very obvious difference when fielding my 78 DM instead of my 75 DM midfielder and my 77 LM instead of my 75 LM when i was River Plate especially when playing Barca and Arsenal( can't remember the players names) so i do think that is present in the Demo. i am willing to bet that if you select another player instead of Alves (off to Juventus) when using Barcelona you will feel the difference in the team also(gonna try and check that out soon)
think of all the teqnical south american teams we can use against the top tier english and spanish teams.
my goodness very mouthwatering indeed.
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I think an example would be like this. If you apply Matt's level of examination, then you'd be asking precise questions like..
- Does my 75 DM defend better or worse than the 78 DM? How is their positioning in comparison, without the ball? Do they anticipate attacks similarly? 75 and 78 is just the overall number, which are the stats on each player that dictate their behavior? (Thus the talk about attacking prowess/defensive prowess stats vs teamwork/tenacity/mentality/chemistry)
...and then also study their behavior and positioning, frame-by-frame.

So it's going beyond just saying, "I feel a very obvious difference". I guess we're looking for something more tangible and specific.

I don't do that much in PES, because I'm not sure if that stuff is even there in the first place. I don't mind watching videos that break this down with rigorous tests tho.

And I think what Matt is trying to focus on, is the tactical part of stats implementation. We all can feel some form of stat implementation while on the ball. But we want to know how well stats implementation is done tactically (off-the-ball?), how it effects their positioning, and if there's a difference between a top class anchor man, and a low-end anchor man, for example. Does the low-end one have defensive lapse/lost of focus (thus the talk about consistency, discipline, errors etc.)? I think that's what Matt means by robotic or not. Coz if the two players behave the same way, with the same exact consistency, while they have noticeably different stat distribution.... then it's fair to call it tactically robotic.
 
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vxcmplx said:
I think an example would be like this. If you apply Matt's level of examination, then you'd be asking precise questions like..
- Does my 75 DM defend better or worse than the 78 DM? How is their positioning in comparison, without the ball? Do they anticipate attacks similarly? 75 and 78 is just the overall number, which are the stats on each player that dictate their behavior? (Thus the talk about attacking prowess/defensive prowess stats vs teamwork/tenacity/mentality/chemistry)
...and then also study their behavior and positioning, frame-by-frame.

So it's going beyond just saying, "I feel a very obvious difference". I guess we're looking for something more tangible and specific.

I don't do that much in PES, because I'm not sure if that stuff is even there in the first place. I don't mind watching videos that break this down with rigorous tests tho.

And I think what Matt is trying to focus on, is the tactical part of stats implementation. We all can feel some form of stat implementation while on the ball. But we want to know how well stats implementation is done tactically (off-the-ball?), how it effects their positioning, and if there's a difference between a top class anchor man, and a low-end anchor man, for example. Does the low-end one have defensive lapse/lost of focus (thus the talk about consistency, discipline, errors etc.)? I think that's what Matt means by robotic or not. Coz if the two players behave the same way, with the same exact consistency, while they have noticeably different stat distribution.... then it's fair to call it tactically robotic.
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well you seem to really understand him so maybe you can explain to me what he was trying to prove with the video he posted.
nothing he said was proofed in his video(frame by frame or with paused and rewind moments to really make your statement valid). it just seemed like his opinion.
he said the pressure applied by Barcelona was like headless chickens and he can break them down easily.
he passed the ball around a lot but didn't even have the majority of the posession.
he didn't even have one shot on target.
he lost the match.
we obviously have a different understanding of what breaking a team down easily means.

i said i could feel the difference in the team when fielding other players which isn't different to test in the demo i think but what you'd like to see,feel and understand was also not proven by his video at all.
so talking about it like you just did, is fine cause we all wanna see, feel and understand how some stats and tactics work but saying that its not there or claiming the game is easy and posting a video without solid proof or a good break down like you just mentioned doesn't really say anything to me at all.
 
Notice that in Matt's video Barca one the possession battle by 1%. Matt was using Corinthians...

I don't care what anyone says, there's something wrong when that's the case.
 
Interesting find about whether the inverse controls affects advanced shooting because I tried advanced shooting last night on the default settings (free kick line) and I noticed that if you point the left stick towards the goals it goes towards the top corner (shooting left to right, holding the stick north-east goes the goalkeeper's right hand top corner and south-east goes to the keeper's left hand top corner). Aiming away from the goal (north-west or south west when shooting left to right) goes to the respective bottom corners. That's exactly how I remember it from prior games when I tried it.

It was definitely different to the other two shooting options but I'm not sure it was better for me. I prefer just using a combination of the power bar and holding the left stick down longer or shorter to get the shots roughly where I want them. Having to remember the right direction might mean I don't get the shot off when i want to or actually aim to a spot I wasn't intending, which defeats the purpose of having more control. Perhaps with more time it will become second nature. Advanced throughballs are pretty cool though.
 
talucchesi said:
Notice that in Matt's video Barca one the possession battle by 1%. Matt was using Corinthians...

I don't care what anyone says, there's something wrong when that's the case.
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Keep in mind Barca hardly plays possession football anymore. The reason they dominate is because of the good players, not because they actively pursue possession,
 
Coach pep said:
Keep in mind Barca hardly plays possession football anymore. The reason they dominate is because of the good players, not because they actively pursue possession,
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Also Barca play more direct football. Taking possession is merely an means to an end result. If there are spaces to exploit they will attempt to exploit them.

We also can't assume the tactics within the demo are always on-point. And we have to take the players (in this case Matt) PES playing style into account.
 
Coach pep said:
Keep in mind Barca hardly plays possession football anymore. The reason they dominate is because of the good players, not because they actively pursue possession,
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So shouldn't they dominate possession when you play against them in the game....

Something is wrong when this isn't happening
 
Barca_Fan13 said:
Also Barca play more direct football. Taking possession is merely an means to an end result. If there are spaces to exploit they will attempt to exploit them.

We also can't assume the tactics within the demo are always on-point. And we have to take the players (in this case Matt) PES playing style into account.
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It shouldn't matter your playing style. Unless you're a GOD at this game this should never happen. I can outpossess Barca playing with Corinthians farr too easily playing on Superstar full manual. There really isn't a real excuse. The cpu always play too direct and don't carry out their "possession" well enough. Simply put.
 
RAMAXWY said:
well you seem to really understand him so maybe you can explain to me what he was trying to prove with the video he posted.
nothing he said was proofed in his video(frame by frame or with paused and rewind moments to really make your statement valid). it just seemed like his opinion.
he said the pressure applied by Barcelona was like headless chickens and he can break them down easily.
he passed the ball around a lot but didn't even have the majority of the posession.
he didn't even have one shot on target.
he lost the match.
we obviously have a different understanding of what breaking a team down easily means.

i said i could feel the difference in the team when fielding other players which isn't different to test in the demo i think but what you'd like to see,feel and understand was also not proven by his video at all.
so talking about it like you just did, is fine cause we all wanna see, feel and understand how some stats and tactics work but saying that its not there or claiming the game is easy and posting a video without solid proof or a good break down like you just mentioned doesn't really say anything to me at all.
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The basis of the video was actually a collective agreement of those that have said the difficulty levels in this demo are not properly "difficult", especially pertaining to Superstar. This sentiment is all over the forums, all over youtube, it's not surprising. I explain why it looks that way. It's not just my opinion, it's proven in the video. If you were watching that match IRL, you'd be like WTF is Barcelona doing? How is Corinthians dominating the flow of the play, and how is it Barcelona are freaking out defensively - leaving incredible gaps wide open. No manager in their right mind would say that is okay. This is why I also mention another solution, if tactical adherence can't be toned down, then an increase in defensive line height could make it a proper press, especially in Barcelona's case. Again, it's the demo, so that option is not possible - so I still remain hopeful for the full game.

The problem with these responses is exactly what I mentioned in the video...using tactics as a crutch. Tactics are not the be all end all, and the lack of proper football common sense just validates where the priorities are. It's like we're afraid to criticize the implementation of tactics in fear KONAMI is going to strip them away from us like children. It's okay to criticize them. It's so very obvious that tactics are being over-done, over-programmed and all that needs to be done is to lower that intensity level of the players following those tactics.

What I try to do in my videos is 1. State an issue and 2. Provide possible solutions. The very first thing I mentioned in the video was that I was just going to talk over the gameplay in the background, so there was not going to be any pausing or pointing out specific issues with a visual. I will do that on a more in-depth video, most likely when the full game comes out next week.
 
Everyone needs to calm down with this difficulty thing. It's ALWAYS much harder in master league or cup comps. We can judge there. Full game comes out next week.
 
RAMAXWY said:
well you seem to really understand him so maybe you can explain to me what he was trying to prove with the video he posted.
nothing he said was proofed in his video(frame by frame or with paused and rewind moments to really make your statement valid). it just seemed like his opinion.
he said the pressure applied by Barcelona was like headless chickens and he can break them down easily.
he passed the ball around a lot but didn't even have the majority of the posession.
he didn't even have one shot on target.
he lost the match.
we obviously have a different understanding of what breaking a team down easily means.

i said i could feel the difference in the team when fielding other players which isn't different to test in the demo i think but what you'd like to see,feel and understand was also not proven by his video at all.
so talking about it like you just did, is fine cause we all wanna see, feel and understand how some stats and tactics work but saying that its not there or claiming the game is easy and posting a video without solid proof or a good break down like you just mentioned doesn't really say anything to me at all.
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I was talking about him trying to show the defense line DM positioning issue in his earlier video/project, that one I did find investigative.

I feel the same as you about that video. That's what I was implying by "that's a long video with broad commentary" when I replied to the video post. I couldn't find a focus on the commentary, but I wrote a reply the best I could, going off on some points he was hinting at. Tbh could have just wrote a post instead of making the video, coz there was not relationship between the video and what he talked about. Video didn't serve as a visual aid at all. But I didn't feel the need to attack it. It felt like a podcast, talking over an unrelated video. I guess that's what it is, trying to work out the ideas? Plus, the video wasn't really about the title "ball physics" either.

The one I watched previously was done better. The one about defense line and DM issue. Now that we're on the topic, might as well give some feedback. I hope future videos have more rigor in-line with the one from earlier. I guess we're all here to give feedback and ideas. I hope feedback like this is fair, since you have branded your channel, "source of realistic gaming". What's the next step Matt? Like I said, I'm not sure if nuances like these exist in PES, but good luck with the projects.
 
Matt10 said:
The basis of the video was actually a collective agreement of those that have said the difficulty levels in this demo are not properly "difficult", especially pertaining to Superstar. This sentiment is all over the forums, all over youtube, it's not surprising. I explain why it looks that way. It's not just my opinion, it's proven in the video. If you were watching that match IRL, you'd be like WTF is Barcelona doing? How is Corinthians dominating the flow of the play, and how is it Barcelona are freaking out defensively - leaving incredible gaps wide open. No manager in their right mind would say that is okay. This is why I also mention another solution, if tactical adherence can't be toned down, then an increase in defensive line height could make it a proper press, especially in Barcelona's case. Again, it's the demo, so that option is not possible - so I still remain hopeful for the full game.

The problem with these responses is exactly what I mentioned in the video...using tactics as a crutch. Tactics are not the be all end all, and the lack of proper football common sense just validates where the priorities are. It's like we're afraid to criticize the implementation of tactics in fear KONAMI is going to strip them away from us like children. It's okay to criticize them. It's so very obvious that tactics are being over-done, over-programmed and all that needs to be done is to lower that intensity level of the players following those tactics.

What I try to do in my videos is 1. State an issue and 2. Provide possible solutions. The very first thing I mentioned in the video was that I was just going to talk over the gameplay in the background, so there was not going to be any pausing or pointing out specific issues with a visual. I will do that on a more in-depth video, most likely when the full game comes out next week.
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I still didn't see it in the video tho. Your post here made your point better than the video did.

Are tactics overdone, over programmed tho? Do you think there should be a carpet decrease on tactical adherence, or by individual cases? (I opt for the latter)
 
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