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PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

Chris Davies said:
If it's still the same as 2016, you press the through-pass button and position a marker at the same time (the marker can be disabled in the options menu, so if you're not seeing anything that might be why).

The button-press is supposed to determine the strength of the kick (and how likely it is to run on), but if you put the aim marker (which you have about half-a-second to position) way down the pitch, you'll kick it hard enough to get there.

I used to find it really helpful for putting the ball exactly where you intend to, and it stops the CPU deliberately putting too much pace on it and giving the ball straight to the goalkeeper.

But having not spent a lot of time with PES 2016 up until this last few months, I've found I can't get used to it again...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I must have the marker turned off . .didn't realise it worked like that. . . .and I call myself a Pes fan.
 
Deco said:
Thanks for that, I must have the marker turned off . .didn't realise it worked like that. . . .and I call myself a Pes fan.
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Here's a screenshot (look for the yellow dotted-line circle by the D at the edge of the box):

pes-advance-through-pass.jpg
 
cowden_harley said:
Am i right in saying you can't drag players into positions in tactics anymore?

Also score this full manual today. Was off my seat.



and then this peach

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see, thats manual shooting!!! love the hard low shots! what a difference compared to assisted shooting!
awesome camera angle and rain drops on the cam in that second video! looks so damn cool!!!
 
Last couple of days, away from the game, I was thinking how amazing the ball phsysics are in this game. However, the more I watch, and the more I play, some things just stuck out. Take a look if you'd like. What do you guys think - are Ball physics enough for PES 17?

 
Matt10 said:
Last couple of days, away from the game, I was thinking how amazing the ball phsysics are in this game. However, the more I watch, and the more I play, some things just stuck out. Take a look if you'd like. What do you guys think - are Ball physics enough for PES 17?

Click to expand...


Matt did you ever watch Man Utd under Ferguson or the great Liverpool sides? They both went from stopping an attack to a lightning quick counter attack in seconds which included full backs taking part. It does happen in football . .some teams love to play that way . .. as for Barcelona they actually do press very hard when they lose the ball until they win it back, that was the secret to a lot of their success. You're talking about adhering too strictly to tactics but does the user not have the choice of where he wants the ball to go. .I don't think the tactics are going to override what the user is trying to do. . .the tactics may change what positions the players are on the pitch but surely if you're controlling what is happening then it's down to yourself which way that you approach it.
 
So come on... how excited are you all?

Im really really excited to play this years game. i was happy with last years game but this one again just smooths out the edges a lil.

Do we know how up to date the game will be from the off?
 
From pesgaming


Originally Posted by Duck No.99
You don't have to worry about the amount of slots...

As far as I know , there are slots for 1000 kits. I think, it's enough for all the missing kits, at least home, away and GK:

Premier League: 20 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 18 team kits to create: 54 kits
Championship: 24 unlicensed teams -> 24 teams kits to create: 72 kits

Ligue 1 and Ligue 2: completely licensed

Serie A: 20 teams, only two unlicensed teams -> 2 team kits to create: 6 kits
Serie B: 22 unlicensed teams -> 22 team kits to create: 66 kits

Eredivisie: completely licensed

Primera Division: 20 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 18 team kits to create: 54 kits
Segunda Division: 22 unlicensed teams -> 22 team kits to create: 66 kits

Liga NOS: 18 teams, 2 licensed teams -> 16 team kits to create: 48 kits

Liga Brasileirao: completely licensed
Liga Argentina: completely licensed
Liga Chile: completely licensed

League PEU (example: for Bundesliga): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create
League PLA (example: MLS): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create
League PAS (example: J-League,...): 20 teams -> 60 team kits to create

(several teams of different leagues already in-game -> reduces number of kits to create)

National teams: 83 teams, +/- 10 licensed teams -> 73-75 team kits to create: 225 kits

Summary:
225 + 60 + 60 + 60 + 48 + 66 + 54 + 66 + 6 + 72 + 54 = 771 kits

ML fake teams: ca. 30 unlicensed teams -> ca. 90 kits

=> 771 + 90 = 861 kits to equip all unlicensed in-game teams

Then we still have around 140 kits for third kits or second GK kits.

So I think, it's better to create kits with a higher resolution of 2048x2048.
 
Matt10 said:
Last couple of days, away from the game, I was thinking how amazing the ball phsysics are in this game. However, the more I watch, and the more I play, some things just stuck out. Take a look if you'd like. What do you guys think - are Ball physics enough for PES 17?


Click to expand...







Been saying for a few years, we need a tactical discipline stat, so we can see some variation of players who are sharper in their positioning than others. There a lots of things that can result in robotic performance in this game. Consistency is also one of those. There should be a separate stat named "consistency" that gives you some random small mistakes, depending on the player's consistency in real life. E.g. this kind of ball-player separation doesn't happen in PES at all (where the ball-stringed-to-player sensation actually breaks off): https://streamable.com/aa66


If the players on the field don't make small mistakes, then it's real tough for the COM to even get a chance do dispossess us, everything is too clean --- passes snap to feet, dribblers with ball stringed to feet. What's to stop us from over-playing in difficult areas?

The tactical element feels flat, because the personal traits don't show enough, I believe that's what you're saying here. Tactics that behave too close to instructions, without accounting for the personal behavior. I think PES does an OK job in player ID and role-specific behaviors (although could improve). It's the discipline that needs to be there, to make it feel a little less robotic maybe.

For example, the press you are talking about, I'd like to see some variations of how some players would press better than others, how some players have more tenacity and efficiency, while others only press half heartedly and with poor success rate. To balance this out, the defenders need to be made more clumsy, less reliable.

I think in PES, there's always been a flattened way to bring out the events of real football, and to balance out one simplified mechanic with another simplified mechanic.

E.g. I always feel the press does not have individuality nuances in the way I described above, because:
- passing is OP (ball travels from point-to-point, no gradation. Thus some of us resort to manual)
- dribbling is OP, ball strings to feet
- to balance this, pressure is OP ( [] and X button gives you no individual differences in efficiency and ability to read the situation. The only difference lies in the actual body contact --- body strength, and ball winning stat. Def prowess does not effect the ability and accuracy of your player trying to track down the ball carrier --- the [] and X button overrides this).



I always say ping pong passing+the easy dribbling mechanic vs OP full court pressure, are two sides of the same coin, they exist to balance each other out.



When you have flattened realities like these in the game, it's hard to say what takes precedence. Does tactics dominate the events in the game? Or does simplified mechanics override everything, including tactics? Or even, does control/assistance settings override individual traits, or mistakes? You can really say that about everything that happens in PES. So that's my general statement on this subject. Flattened realities kinda suck.



But I've also heard comments that making a game this detailed, would result in it "not being fun". So that's up for discussion too.



I feel you on what you say about controlling the ball tho. In fact, in PES, the way to represent this could be "controlling your body shape". I dream of a game where using the correct body shape is always necessary, and has huge effects on accuracy. That's most of what we are doing on the field, we are controlling the ball, thinking about the next step, orienting our body within the allowed time frame. That should be the foundation of everything we do on the field, I think that also matches what you were saying about the "controlling the ball", coz you cannot control the ball well without being able to control your body well.

When "body control" stat was announced this year, I had high hopes that it would have correlation to how every player is able to orient their body, turn, controlling their limbs etc. But as it turns out, this is the official description:

XBigesW.jpg


From that description, it seems to me the body control stat is just a "how well can I ride a challenge" stat. So I'm a bit disappointed. I was hoping to see it take effect even in open space, without pressure or body contact.

Sorry for long post, that's a long video with broad commentary, I think it helps to go into specifics of the mechanics in the game that allows/prevents it from doing what you've described.
 
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Deco said:
Matt did you ever watch Man Utd under Ferguson or the great Liverpool sides? They both went from stopping an attack to a lightning quick counter attack in seconds which included full backs taking part. It does happen in football . .some teams love to play that way . .. as for Barcelona they actually do press very hard when they lose the ball until they win it back, that was the secret to a lot of their success. You're talking about adhering too strictly to tactics but does the user not have the choice of where he wants the ball to go. .I don't think the tactics are going to override what the user is trying to do. . .the tactics may change what positions the players are on the pitch but surely if you're controlling what is happening then it's down to yourself which way that you approach it.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing the fact that the tactic exists, or that they are not valid to be used. I'm arguing the fact that the intensity of the tactical adherence being too high in this video game. There is a very big difference there. I never disagreed with the advanced instructions, formations or any particular strategy. What is very clear is that the execution of the tactics are too robotic, at least in the demo, that it actually works against the gameplan. No manager in their right mind would tell Barcelona players to press with 1 player right behind the other. There is such an intensity of that tactic, that it doesn't look like proper pressing...it looks like over-commitment. Which is why you can easily just pass the ball forward to get out of the press. It's that simple.

Theory is all fine, but tactics aren't supposed to be theories in this game, they are supposed to help - and not hurt - those who use them. From what I can see, in the demo, that all that is needed, is to scale down the intensity that players adhere to the tactics, so it doesn't look like they are running around with their heads cut off.
 
Matt10 said:
I'm not arguing the fact that the tactic exists, or that they are not valid to be used. I'm arguing the fact that the intensity of the tactical adherence being too high in this video game. There is a very big difference there. I never disagreed with the advanced instructions, formations or any particular strategy. What is very clear is that the execution of the tactics are too robotic, at least in the demo, that it actually works against the gameplan. No manager in their right mind would tell Barcelona players to press with 1 player right behind the other. There is such an intensity of that tactic, that it doesn't look like proper pressing...it looks like over-commitment. Which is why you can easily just pass the ball forward to get out of the press. It's that simple.

Theory is all fine, but tactics aren't supposed to be theories in this game, they are supposed to help - and not hurt - those who use them. From what I can see, in the demo, that all that is needed, is to scale down the intensity that players adhere to the tactics, so it doesn't look like they are running around with their heads cut off.
Click to expand...

Over commitment? . .. . . . . But isn't that how teams get caught on the break in reality probably not to the extreme that you have pointed out. If I switched to long ball it wouldn't mean that I have to play long ball. . the option would be there. If you're talking about the a.i alone well then the user can't do much about it lol. . . .. I'm sure they're aware that you've brought this up.
 
Deco said:
Over commitment? . .. . . . . But isn't that how teams get caught on the break in reality probably not to the extreme that you have pointed out. If I switched to long ball it wouldn't mean that I have to play long ball. . the option would be there. If you're talking about the a.i alone well then the user can't do much about it lol. . . .. I'm sure they're aware that you've brought this up.
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Absolutely! You can over commit from time to time, but not at the scale of what's being displayed. This is why Superstar has no sense of really being difficult. You're spot on, if you switch to a long ball tactic - then it's your choice to perform that tactic. That is another layer of adherence, only that you - as a player - can control. The AI, do not have this. It's a live or die situation for them.

What baffles me is that in the nex-gen stats, they removed so many key values that allowed this to happen, in particular "Teamwork", and consolidated the likes of "Teamwork, Chemistry, Tenacity and Mentality" with simply..."Prowess" (Attacking/Defending).

I made this post on Operation Sports, and it's going to be the basis of my next video to properly prepare what could come. It's the reason PES 16 felt just as robotic, and I will naturally fear that any game afterwards follow the same path:

---

There are some key player ratings that are no longer in the current PES, that made up the proper composition of a player - that actually allowed the players to vary their adherence to tactics, or overall teamwork. You guessed it, that value was "Teamwork" (there was also "Chemistry" in previous games).

Look here for Messi in PES 16 - http://www.pesmaster.com/l-messi/pes-2016/player/7511/

- No mention of "Teamwork", or "Chemistry"

Instead we have Attack/Defense Prowess:

Attacking Prowess:
The Ability to be involved with goal scoring chances (appropriate positioning when attacking, fast reactions to loose balls, getting into the right places for crosses).

Defensive Prowess:
The ability of defending by predicting the pattern of play. It includes how good his reactions are based on intelligent reading of the game when defending, rather than his physical reactions.
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Now here Messi from PES PES 13 - http://www.pesmaster.com/messi/pes-2013/player/7511/

- Teamwork value of 83

To go into it deeper, see here, the "NexGen Pes Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35306

And the "Old-Gen Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27818

Teamwork

Teamwork relates to supportive off the ball movement. A player with high Teamwork (Xavi, for example) supports their teammates by moving around the field, making themselves available for potentional passes. Additionally, in the case of defenders, Teamwork effects a player's ability to work with his defensive teammates as a unit.

Teamwork is not, despite previous beliefs, at all related to how good of a playmaker a player is.
Click to expand...

So instead, the NexGen PES Stats have consolidated the likes of Teamwork, Menality, Tenacity, Chemistry, etc - into the value of "Prowess". Attacking/Defensive Prowess is the reason we are getting the game the way it is in this current gen. There is no more truly identifiable stat that controls the adherence level to the tactics, or even the nature of a game is played. It's all "under the hood" now.

One last point, the Attack/Defense ratings of old, is different than the Attack/Defense Prowess. I still highly believe the Prowess values are purely cosmetic, or an addition/subtraction, of the OVR value. The best way you can test this is load up PES 13 (or older), lower Attack and raise Defense. Play a ML, finish the match, go in and see the CPU scores. In PES 13 (or older) you will see very low scoring, in PES 16 you will see them completely untouched, there will be a range of scores.
 
Matt10 said:
I'm not arguing the fact that the tactic exists, or that they are not valid to be used. I'm arguing the fact that the intensity of the tactical adherence being too high in this video game. There is a very big difference there. I never disagreed with the advanced instructions, formations or any particular strategy. What is very clear is that the execution of the tactics are too robotic, at least in the demo, that it actually works against the gameplan. No manager in their right mind would tell Barcelona players to press with 1 player right behind the other. There is such an intensity of that tactic, that it doesn't look like proper pressing...it looks like over-commitment. Which is why you can easily just pass the ball forward to get out of the press. It's that simple.

Theory is all fine, but tactics aren't supposed to be theories in this game, they are supposed to help - and not hurt - those who use them. From what I can see, in the demo, that all that is needed, is to scale down the intensity that players adhere to the tactics, so it doesn't look like they are running around with their heads cut off.
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I really appreciate your efforts and contribution to the forum Matt. Everything that you say makes sense, but IMO it is having very little impact on the fun and enjoyment I am getting every game I play? I understand the need for constructive and well thought out criticism, however for the majority of football gamers, this kind of issue (IMO) will be overlooked, because it's just great to play in its current state.

I have no doubt that the full game will have some things smoothed out so, potentially, an even better game, but my first stop is "do I enjoy it?" The tactical authenticity is important but some way down the line for me.

I see adaptation from the AI when I play and that in itself is a big step in the right direction.

Thanks for your continued efforts
Dave
 
Matt10 said:
I'm not arguing the fact that the tactic exists, or that they are not valid to be used. I'm arguing the fact that the intensity of the tactical adherence being too high in this video game. There is a very big difference there. I never disagreed with the advanced instructions, formations or any particular strategy. What is very clear is that the execution of the tactics are too robotic, at least in the demo, that it actually works against the gameplan. No manager in their right mind would tell Barcelona players to press with 1 player right behind the other. There is such an intensity of that tactic, that it doesn't look like proper pressing...it looks like over-commitment. Which is why you can easily just pass the ball forward to get out of the press. It's that simple.

Theory is all fine, but tactics aren't supposed to be theories in this game, they are supposed to help - and not hurt - those who use them. From what I can see, in the demo, that all that is needed, is to scale down the intensity that players adhere to the tactics, so it doesn't look like they are running around with their heads cut off.
Click to expand...


I think part of it is because COM applies pressure in a 1v1 mindset. While there may be some sensitivity or intelligence regarding overall shape in how the COM presses, it is not smart enough for us to call it contextual.

Example of Atletico's pressing:



Some of this organization is missing, as well as the individual's intelligence of staying in passing lanes while pressing, using "cover shadow" to block off pass opportunities while moving closer. That's contextual.

Also missing is tactical discipline and on-the-ball consistency. We really need more errors in this game. Not every player should have the same effectiveness and intelligence to carry out a gameplan. Player ID covers this to a certain extent, but we need more errors, more gradation, more organic moments. Tho I feel PES17 is a step in the right direction, maybe we'll get a bit closer year by year.

I mean, it also depends on your assistance settings also, doesn't it? If you ask for a game where the COM is supposed to read your body shape and intelligently decipher what you might be trying to do next, block off your options etc...... and then you crank up pass assistance level to the max, that can override your body shape and your pass might come out accurate, regardless of poor body shape. In situations like these, it can really defeat the purpose? There's always things like these that makes it difficult to keep the game and the COM performing in a robust way. To me, everything is related.

Thus why I said in the post earlier:
When you have flattened realities like these in the game, it's hard to say what takes precedence. Does tactics dominate the events in the game? Or does simplified mechanics override everything, including tactics? Or even, does control/assistance settings override individual traits, or mistakes? You can really say that about everything that happens in PES. So that's my general statement on this subject. Flattened realities kinda suck.
Click to expand...
 
romagnoli said:
The problem might be that there are a lot of clubs using the attacking fullbacks set when they don't strictly play in that exact manner, but it's a legitimate tactic based on a few teams in recent history, Barca being the most famous of those. To an extent it's why 3-4-1-2 and the like has had a resurgence over the past few years - it's a natural shift to what a 4-3-3 with overlapping fullbacks and a false 9 ends up becoming, with a slightly different slant on what positions you move into as you build up play (and the abilities of players in those positions changes because the third, central CB has more of a CB flavour than DM etc).

The best option if you want attacking fullbacks without the DM doing a Busquets is perhaps to set your sliders up to attack down the wing, use possession play, and set your wide men to AMF instead of LMF/RMF so they're more central. Your DM should stay a DM, and you should also find that only one fullback will overlap at a time so you still have 3 back.

Klashman could probably tell you better than I could.
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The problem here is though when we go to our attacking fullbacks style, Busquets doesn't split the Cb's like he would in Pes. He is playing in a "normal" CDM position with both fullbacks still high up the pitch. Here's a screenshot I grabbed of our last game that kind of demonstrates this...

ULi_0vtg.jpg


Unfortunately, this seems pretty impossible to recreate with this years Pes so far
 
Matt10 said:
Teamwork

Teamwork relates to supportive off the ball movement. A player with high Teamwork (Xavi, for example) supports their teammates by moving around the field, making themselves available for potentional passes. Additionally, in the case of defenders, Teamwork effects a player's ability to work with his defensive teammates as a unit.

Teamwork is not, despite previous beliefs, at all related to how good of a playmaker a player is.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I'm curious, this stuff...teamwork, chemistry, mentality (with the exception of tenacity)...is real hard to quantify. They are somewhat intangible. Does it actually work in PES13 and prior? Can we actually see players have better positional intelligence? (i.e. we can say it's not cosmetic?)


I'd lke to see a video on that, how it works in actual in-game performance, highlighting how the better players are better positioned off-the-ball, to keep passing lanes open etc.. That would be really interesting to see. I'm not sure if 2013 has the tech to program something so subtle and intangible, it's difficult to do even today..
 
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