RAMAXWY
Premier League
- 16 October 2006
- Barcelona
PES 2017 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
This is a video game, people want to have fun too. So what you're suggesting every game should end 0-0 because of the short time you're playing? When did PES ever been like that.
Bond!JamesBond!
PS2 PES Greatness
yeah, keepers shouldn't be the main reason you see realistic lower scoring.
everyone said keepers suck in PES.
Now the keepers are real good but the midfielders suck.
Edmundo 22
League 1
- 11 November 2003
Matt thanks for your video, discussions would have more solidarity if posters used videos to show what they mean. For me it's hard to say anything when you dont know the difficulty and tactic settings. I can make a Pes 2016 video on regular difficulty and show the same thing. Lower diffculty gives more space.
Last edited:
Dr Force
Golden Boot Winner
Yes they look great
Ok Matt stalemate . .. we'll live to fight another day . .. btw what about that big fecking gap when Ronaldo scored in that Pes 2011 vid? .. . . hmmm ... is Pes 2011 becoming the new Pes5 as a point of reference?
It's already been discussed, and yes, it is a problem but Konami buddies aka Asim and Adam don't see anything wrong with it-I already told them about it last year and it was ok for them, so...
shez
League 1
- 19 August 2005
No fouls no offsides in the first half of Matts video. Very poor IMHO
aussiepesfan
Champions League
- 17 April 2002
Great post, not because I totally agree with you, but because it really raises questions as to why or who at Konami decided to take steps backwards from the realism of pes14 to what we have now. I do think that pes17 has many, many improvements from 16, as can be spotted in the many clips we've seen...Ball physics do look much improved which is a huge thing in football.
BUT its 2 key areas that we can see have fallen short (gone backwards). First, animations with player movement/dribbling look really bad as they did with 16. Many posts ago, I mentioned that 'the look' still has, in my view, a direct relationship to how the game feels when controlling a player. Simply put, the game needs to feel like playing real football when controlling a single player. I tried pes14, pes15 and pes16 in free training mode.. simply moving around with the ball, sprinting, passing, crossing scoring etc, and by a MILE, pes14 felt the most realistic (some of this also do to the fact that the ball physics are in my view amazing in 14). More realistic than any other football game. It Looks and feels brilliant. The players actually have player models of real life looking football players (no hunch, no big shorts that make upper legs look enormous), particularly the players with their shirts untucked - to be specific - they look awesome in 14. The movements were natural and realistic.. out of any soccer game, the least amount of missing animations that ive seen. This obviously increases the response time, but I always thought this increase in response time was in fact more sim than the arcade feel of being able to go left, right, and 360 in a milli second. Also, im playing we2014 asoki samuri, the last made version of we/pes14 which I believe improved the response issue quite a bit. Anyways with pes14 in free training mode, it felt like I was actually controlling a football player. You need this feeling in a football game - if you want to be immersed by it.
With pes15 and 16, free training mode, first thing I notice is a deterioration in realistic player models. Pes15 isn't that bad though.. pes16 much worse.. bigger shorts, legs spread wider, and more of a hunch in the running animations. Ok, the responsiveness no doubt improved, but with it comes the horrible/unrealistic movements (missed animations and sliding) and horrible running form. It also seems to negatively affect the passing. Almost too responsive, n no weight to the pass. Im talking more about 16 here, because, 15 actually felt pretty good (albeit not as natural and realistic as 14)..but pes15 player movement/animations are much better than 16, and there is a heaviness that I really enjoy when moving and passing in 15. Unfortunately the ball felt and sounded like a rock when you kicked it
The 2nd key area that is really concerning from the pes17 clips seen thus far, is exactly what Matt10 mentioned in his YouTube clip (fantastic summation btw, thanks for that). Its to do with the actual football brain/tactics that are incorporated in the gameplay. We desperately need realistic common-sense football in regards to how the game is actually played in the professional world of football (positioning and tracking). Matt10's video clearly shows that either Konami lack football knowledge (on how football is actually played, even by the worst of the worst professional teams) or are truly going the arcade route.
As critical or negative as many of us sound here, I do think we need to continue to relay these messages to Konami, and for them to know that many of us just aren't happy with the decisions they are currently making. Will it make a difference, who knows.. as they know they cannot make all fans happy with their decisions. Im just hoping that the big dogs at Konami start hiring or listening to some educated football folk who really know the game and that their passion heads towards a simulated route.
Anyways, although I doubt things will improve drastically from what we've seen from these clips, I do remain optimistic that the version we get will be a better build in regards to tactics etc. On a positive, at least it seems that some of the old issues from pes16 have been some what improved, ie. refs look much better now, keepers seem to save low shots better - haven't seen the slow mo dive. Shot variation/errors still need work though.
Banksy
Banned
- 25 June 2014
I hear you Matt and I think your points are valid..however,I think we also have to bare in mind the user controlling the game is leaving holes everywhere,rushing forward and just pinging the ball around wildly..
When is there ever any passes between the defenders and he rarely passes backwards or to the sides,or does he slow the tempo down and try to draw the opposition out of position.
For me the game is playing out exactly how it should when the end user is applying no thought to how he plays and is just taking his own players out of position all over the pitch.
It looks frenetic and disjointed because that's how it's being played..not a great example of even a average player and the passing looks totally assited.
Last edited:
zeemeister
foxy engine
No fouls no offsides in the first half of Matts video. Very poor IMHO
What do you think of the vids that did have fouls and offsides?
I remember posting a vid of a goal in one of the PES threads gone by. An innocent share of a goal I enjoyed and was proud of and people in this community took the time to shit on silly little things that didn't detract from the enjoyment I got out of it.
Last edited:
aussiepesfan
Champions League
- 17 April 2002
I guess we'd have to agree to disagree on that part. Because for me, how the game "looks" most certainly affects how it "feels". To get a real football feeling, as in controlling a football player, the movement/passing/shooting, has to "look" like decent movement/passing/shooting, when pressing the button for it. The audio/sound being realistic also affects the feeling.
If you are talking about response time, meaning feeling, then yes.. they are different.
On the topic of pes17.. I do have to say the ball physics look much improved, and I do think this will improve the 'feeling' of the game. Im not sure how you guys feel, but for me, if seems the actual new sound of the ball being kicked (which is now no doubt louder on default sound - from new clips weve seen) makes the ball seem heavier in the game. This for me correlates to the idea that the ball will 'feel' heavier in the game.. I think the 'feel' is directly related, not just to response, but visuals/animations and sound...It all works together. Pes15 felt heavier, when controlling a player, than pes16. No doubt this had to do with the fact that pes15 didn't have nearly as much skating as pes16, and also had more natural movement than pes16. Pes16 had more response than pes15, yet it had a worse "feeling" (for me) than pes15... go figure...
shez
League 1
- 19 August 2005
Not enough fouls and offsides on all vids I've seen so far.
A full half of football with no fouls or offsides is not a good sign.
I'm talking User v CPU.
Last edited:
aussiepesfan
Champions League
- 17 April 2002
..yes.. that's it. Agreed. But we really need a balance. If you are going to include all the animations to make things look and feel realistic, the increased animations would probably only work if they were sped up to some degree - to ensure there is reasonable response. Ultimately I think konami should focus on the absolute "basic movements" first.. ie. proper passing and side foot animation. What I find interesting about the recent pes's, is the animations for side footers don't have any backlift, this is for passing distances that are close, as well as those going the full length of the field. A long hard low pass should have a huge backlift, and since it takes the bar time to fill up, there should definitely be time to add these back lifting animations. This would affect response time, and this would be a good/realistic addition to response time, as you cannot just do this ping pong style.
zeemeister
foxy engine
They did have body positioning affecting passing and shooting in a recent PES but many started complaining about lag. I didn't mind it at all as it added to realism but you have to recognise that the game speed needs to be reduced to allow time for all the little movements to happen and you are trying to squeeze 90mins of football into 15 min.
It's quite a difficult balance to achieve I can imagine - I am no expert though.
It's quite a difficult balance to achieve I can imagine - I am no expert though.
No fouls no offsides in the first half of Matts video. Very poor IMHO
This is PES mate, you can't judge the game in one or two gameplay matches. Different match with different outcome. I wouldn't judge the game on a very limited footage. I'd rather wait for the demo and play 20 or so match before judging it.
Here's the screenshot I took on one of the gameplay vs A.I.
Last edited:
Bond!JamesBond!
PS2 PES Greatness
beautiful post
this is the whole problem, fix this and the rest will fall into place.
this is why defenders get beat.
Banksy
Banned
- 25 June 2014
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
what are these flickering shadows on players especially related to? bad antialiasing? lod? both?
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
NETS - sorry for the lazy copy paste
i think the solution is again in the past. that defence intensity (i dont think it had a name, defence level?) you could set up for each player could determine how much would they move forward in certain tactics, also the attacking movement (those little arrows)could help where the players should move during attack. eg if u dont set up arrows and defence level is set on high, Pique wont move out of his position even if the team's attacking level is red, yes he would be more offensive but wouldnt turn in to Robi Carlos he'd just adapt to the team's tactic and would position a little bit higher according to the team tactic and offensive level.
i remember trying to do something like this for PES 6
(amateur)
Barca- Bayern is more end to end since both teams press higher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wpRlQH6HxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCAQZurzZoE
Marko Zgela @Zgela10 11h11 hours ago
@Adam_Bhatti can you change net tension in pes 2017? Is there any option?
0 retweets 0 likes
Reply Retweet
Like
More
Adam Bhatti @Adam_Bhatti 11h11 hours ago
@Zgela10 no
0 retweets 0 likes
Reply Retweet
Like
More
Marko Zgela @Zgela10 11h11 hours ago
@Adam_Bhatti I saw some post about 4 options for nets,but nevermind its ok
0 retweets 0 likes
Reply Retweet
Like
More
User Actions
Following
Adam Bhatti
@Adam_Bhatti
@Zgela10 yes, hanging style.
i think the solution is again in the past. that defence intensity (i dont think it had a name, defence level?) you could set up for each player could determine how much would they move forward in certain tactics, also the attacking movement (those little arrows)could help where the players should move during attack. eg if u dont set up arrows and defence level is set on high, Pique wont move out of his position even if the team's attacking level is red, yes he would be more offensive but wouldnt turn in to Robi Carlos he'd just adapt to the team's tactic and would position a little bit higher according to the team tactic and offensive level.
i remember trying to do something like this for PES 6
(amateur)Barca- Bayern is more end to end since both teams press higher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wpRlQH6HxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCAQZurzZoE
Last edited:
Banksy
Banned
- 25 June 2014
beautiful post
this is the whole problem, fix this and the rest will fall into place.
this is why defenders get beat.
This is myth..I welcome better response and played on unassisted you don't get perfect clean passes or touches and this is amplified by weaker players.
Powered fast passes do need to be controlled and I you don't take a touch before you pass or your body or foot is in the wrong position the balls scuffs or there isn't a clean contact.
There is also error and when pes had what is perceived(imo)as better more realistic animations the game was heavy,clunky and a labour to play..
Konami games where always about great response and this was no different in the ps2 error or with iss.
Hyper realistic player animations don't make for a better game and as deco rightly said in the case of Fifa it's a mirage.
Even in its more limited form player moment,momentum is conveyed well it's not unrealistic nor does it defy the laws of physics or the centre of gravity that real players have,use of the close control button allows you to shimmy,shift your weight and create intricate passing angles.
It's not the animations or the response that's wrong with pes16,it's just hugely unfinished and just needs some key fleshing out in areas that will enhance the experience and just make it a better all round game to play.
Last edited:
Banksy
Banned
- 25 June 2014
It's been no different since pes11,we've never seen serious refinement with one particular vision of the game and to expect a product as refined or as polished as a pes 5 in a year or just two isn't realistic..
They need to stick to a formula and just refine every year it's what Fifa has done with great success and I'm now more confident then ever this is the line konami is taking..
Changing it up and starting from scratch every year or two hasn't given them time to really deliver and more robust,finished and polished product.
They need to stick to a formula and just refine every year it's what Fifa has done with great success and I'm now more confident then ever this is the line konami is taking..
Changing it up and starting from scratch every year or two hasn't given them time to really deliver and more robust,finished and polished product.
shez
League 1
- 19 August 2005
@Palenar no one can judge anythng at this stage.
We are trying to point out concerns that we had for 3 or 4 years now and were not addressed, I worry about fouls,goalkeepers, shooting.
Then when we talk ML i'll mention the fatigue issue,lack of injuries and other fundamentals that we don't want to see broken.
The community will handle licensing and squad problems but Konami have to listen to us at least.
We are trying to point out concerns that we had for 3 or 4 years now and were not addressed, I worry about fouls,goalkeepers, shooting.
Then when we talk ML i'll mention the fatigue issue,lack of injuries and other fundamentals that we don't want to see broken.
The community will handle licensing and squad problems but Konami have to listen to us at least.
aussiepesfan
Champions League
- 17 April 2002
..im all for building on what they already have, if only the base is good. I wish they did this with pes14. Anyways thats the past so ill stop talking about pes14 (even though secretly im hoping they have been working on this version behind closed doors surely not!!!)
You are right in saying its no good in starting a new build every year. Of course its best to stick with a winning formula, and build on what is already good. Im just hoping they can stick some more realistic player models and running animations over the current engine..that'd be a start
Im wondering how much the actual staff at Konami (those in charge of programming pes/we) has changed over the last 5-10 years... and how that's affected what they do...does seabass actually make any input these days??? Im sure I saw his name in the credits last year.. or for pes15
Fifa.. for me, even to this day, their player models have never been spot on. Players models decent up close.. but gameplay wise, they look too lanky and tall.. they all have long legs. Animation wise, it actually looks pretty good, and more realistic than pes17.. however their issue is that it doesn't move anywhere as smoothly as pes. Played fifa16 on ps4 a week ago... the fps and way the ball pans (way camera follows the ball in the air) is just not smooth enough for me to enjoy it. My ps4 works fine btw. Its just the way the ball moves through the air... like its missing some frames.. my guess is that its not running at 60fps, and missing frames to enhance response.. or its just the way the game is programmed... not sure..
Just a random thought regarding pes14. I do remember when I got it.. pre patch etc, for ps3, and was a little annoyed by the responsiveness during exhibition mode. Most annoying was some slow down with many in the box. This was later fixed, but at the time, I remember playing purely in training mode. ie. free training 11 v 11. and for me this played brilliantly.. despite the fouls (which were off by default). But it was the first time I thought.. wow.. finally I can enjoy a next gen version of pes. Finally I enjoyed a version of pes more than pes5/we9le/pes6...
surely not!!!) You are right in saying its no good in starting a new build every year. Of course its best to stick with a winning formula, and build on what is already good. Im just hoping they can stick some more realistic player models and running animations over the current engine..that'd be a start
Im wondering how much the actual staff at Konami (those in charge of programming pes/we) has changed over the last 5-10 years... and how that's affected what they do...does seabass actually make any input these days??? Im sure I saw his name in the credits last year.. or for pes15
Fifa.. for me, even to this day, their player models have never been spot on. Players models decent up close.. but gameplay wise, they look too lanky and tall.. they all have long legs. Animation wise, it actually looks pretty good, and more realistic than pes17.. however their issue is that it doesn't move anywhere as smoothly as pes. Played fifa16 on ps4 a week ago... the fps and way the ball pans (way camera follows the ball in the air) is just not smooth enough for me to enjoy it. My ps4 works fine btw. Its just the way the ball moves through the air... like its missing some frames.. my guess is that its not running at 60fps, and missing frames to enhance response.. or its just the way the game is programmed... not sure..
Just a random thought regarding pes14. I do remember when I got it.. pre patch etc, for ps3, and was a little annoyed by the responsiveness during exhibition mode. Most annoying was some slow down with many in the box. This was later fixed, but at the time, I remember playing purely in training mode. ie. free training 11 v 11. and for me this played brilliantly.. despite the fouls (which were off by default). But it was the first time I thought.. wow.. finally I can enjoy a next gen version of pes. Finally I enjoyed a version of pes more than pes5/we9le/pes6...
patzor
League 1
- 11 July 2010
Of course we can judge stuff at this stage. There's no variation in shooting and the animations aren't as good as they should be at this day and age. Please.
Great video by the way, matt!
Great video by the way, matt!
gabe.paul.logan
Retired Footballer
I agree. This "you shouldnt judge without playing it" is the easiest excuse to shut people up. I see what i see. It looks an end to end, ping pong passing, easy to hit the target (not easy scoring since GKs are much better indeed) game.
And yes i also can tell for the good that its slower, GKs are better, over the top passes are not that OP, there are fouls, there are even injuries, also the graphics are much better.
But it seems like many people think that based on videos u only can say pros and not cons. Yeah, reasonable.
And heavily agree with Matt10, those who got invited to the PESDays shouldnt be so biased since YES THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FUTURE OF PES WITH THEIR FEEDBACK. And i remember one of the youtubers who goes to PESDAYs said "No!" when i asked him if shootin is op in 2016 with a stupid look on his face like it was a retarded question.
So yeah. They should have more objective view on things and not so much subjective, many of these people dont give a damn about oldschool players preferences at all.
Rant over
And yes i also can tell for the good that its slower, GKs are better, over the top passes are not that OP, there are fouls, there are even injuries, also the graphics are much better.
But it seems like many people think that based on videos u only can say pros and not cons. Yeah, reasonable.
And heavily agree with Matt10, those who got invited to the PESDays shouldnt be so biased since YES THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FUTURE OF PES WITH THEIR FEEDBACK. And i remember one of the youtubers who goes to PESDAYs said "No!" when i asked him if shootin is op in 2016 with a stupid look on his face like it was a retarded question.
So yeah. They should have more objective view on things and not so much subjective, many of these people dont give a damn about oldschool players preferences at all.
Rant over
Last edited:
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
I agree. This "you shouldnt judge without playing it" is the easiest excuse to shut people up. I see what i see. It looks an end to end, ping pong passing, easy to hit the target (not easy scoring since GKs are much better indeed) game.
And yes i also can tell for the good that its slower, GKs are better, over the top passes are not that OP, there are fouls, there are even injuries, also the graphics are much better.
But it seems like many people think that based on videos u only can say pros and not cons. Yeah, reasonable.
And heavily agree with Matt10, those who got invited to the PESDays shouldnt be so biased since YES THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FUTURE OF PES WITH THEIR FEEDBACK. And i remember one of the youtubers who goes to PESDAYs said "No!" when i asked him if shootin is op in 2016 with a stupid look on his face like it was a retarded question.
So yeah. They should have more objective view on things and not so much subjective, many of these people dont give a damn about oldschool players preferences at all.
Rant over
Good post. I'm with you, mate. I still feel optimistic with PES 2017, honestly. It's just 1 or 2 particular areas that I am concerned, and thus critical about. It's because those are only, really, 1 or 2 areas that just need to fix - then it's let loose on a potentially very fun game - for all demographics.
curdstar
Premier League
- 19 September 2006
- PES4 Partick Thistle
Selling 3.3 million copies of a game in today's market is actually very strong going, so long as the product in question hasn't had silly amounts of money thrown at marketing and promotion. PES/Konami don't do that.
Seriously, listen to yourself.
Oh FFS! They sell millions of copies of the game, but the way some folk talk in here (a good community otherwise) you would think it was 30.
MikeM24
Big Daddy
Yeah I was coming in here to ask if the referees have been improved, as there definitely is an imbalance between what the CPU has awarded as a foul, and what the player gets. It doesn't seem deliberate (cheating), because on some occasions I do get a freekick for slight contact. It just ruins the game because there is no balance. The CPU crash tackles my players in exactly the same way that I get penalised for.