PES 2013 Discussion Thread

Jamezinho said:
I've given up hope of that one. It's the only thing that would get me back to playing this game again. It's been many weeks since I last did so.
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I truly understand you and i stoped playing the game for weeks too. But thanks to the disabling of autosave i start a new ML a couple of days ago, without player development and now it's bearable. You still have to fight with a lot of useless screenmessages but it's now better then before (autosave was killing me). I would trade it against league mode anytime of course. Still hoping!
 
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It doesn't look like PES has been completely rebuilt from scratch at all for nearly a decade, admittedly the game plays completely differently now than it did in the days of the PS2 (for the better), but from the way it feels I think I can still tell it's got a lot of the same underlying code behind it, meaning these removed features would have actually taken time and effort to lift from the coding.

The fact that there's a yearly release cycle that's been maintained since 1994 (the first release of ISS or it's equivalent in Japan) means they haven't really had much breathing space to really have a proper crack at producing something entirely new and exceptional, unless they set aside a seperate team and budget to work on a project a couple of years in advance, at the same time as the imminent release is being worked on. Same goes for EA with FIFA.

I don't know specifics, but a lot of the best games of this generation have taken years to build - with the amount of variables and intricacies in the sport of football, we'll never see a game that even comes close to what's possible with any hardware when all we get are two companies who make an initial investment whenever there's a new console, followed by constant salesman bullshit where we get sold essentially the same thing with new artwork, databases and a gameplay patch/add-on each year.

FIFA has become such a phenomenon in it's own right though that EA needn't change their "winning" formula as it's such a cash cow, and there will always be enough football fans to let them get away with it, shame really.
I even ended up buying it solely for the team play and guest users aspects of it so I suppose I'm part of the problem!

This rant comes after playing Battlefield 3 - it's almost laughable that something like that runs on the same hardware as PES/FIFA, it's entirely in another league quality-wise.
 
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What I miss in the gameplay besides my usual rants regarding cheating, stamina-system and independent ball(physics) is something that is seldomly mentioned:

A CPU-AI that anticipates things and tries to force certain developments. Imagine a situation that a midfield player passes the ball back to one of the CB's. In real life football teams sometimes anticipate a possible opportunity to force a mistake by pressuring closer to the possible candidates for a pass from him and trying to intercept the ball, so that he is either forced to play a highball , play back to the goalkeeper or play into the out...
if he doesn't want to risk losing the ball in a critical area of the pitch.

That tension to make a mistake is somehow missing. Coupled with that topic are the aspects of ballcontrol/ballphysics and vision. Players under pressure should have reduced vision (of course stat-dependent) and so playing to certain players not in direct vision-line should result in less accuracy.

And quickly passing the ball around because of pressure should transfer energy onto the ball from one pass to the next and reduce accuracy as well as make it harder to control.

And maybe the pitch is a bit too big or the players too small on it.

The other thing that is missing is how players can position their body toward the ball: In real life football when a ball comes high to a player, let's say towards his breast-area. In that situation he has the option of receiving the ball with his breast or he decides not to touch the ball, circle his body around it and let it through to use the ball's velocity as an opportunity to run up the pitch.

The ability to position the body in different and creative ways around the ball seems to be missing. Using supercancel helps a bit but even with that tool it's not possible to circle the ball in the ways real players can do.
 
henrys hand said:
What I miss in the gameplay besides my usual rants regarding cheating, stamina-system and independent ball(physics) is something that is seldomly mentioned:

A CPU-AI that anticipates things and tries to force certain developments. Imagine a situation that a midfield player passes the ball back to one of the CB's. In real life football teams sometimes anticipate a possible opportunity to force a mistake by pressuring closer to the possible candidates for a pass from him and trying to intercept the ball, so that he is either forced to play a highball , play back to the goalkeeper or play into the out...
if he doesn't want to risk losing the ball in a critical area of the pitch.

That tension to make a mistake is somehow missing. Coupled with that topic are the aspects of ballcontrol/ballphysics and vision. Players under pressure should have reduced vision (of course stat-dependent) and so playing to certain players not in direct vision-line should result in less accuracy.

And quickly passing the ball around because of pressure should transfer energy onto the ball from one pass to the next and reduce accuracy as well as make it harder to control.

And maybe the pitch is a bit too big or the players too small on it.

The other thing that is missing is how players can position their body toward the ball: In real life football when a ball comes high to a player, let's say towards his breast-area. In that situation he has the option of receiving the ball with his breast or he decides not to touch the ball, circle his body around it and let it through to use the ball's velocity as an opportunity to run up the pitch.

The ability to position the body in different and creative ways around the ball seems to be missing. Using supercancel helps a bit but even with that tool it's not possible to circle the ball in the ways real players can do.
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I agree with you, but it's all interlinked isn't it?

You're first example is spot on, the pressure creation from the CPU. In the older PES' you had this pressure sometimes. The sense of risk was more palpable because the defenders were slower to react and slightly less responsive, plus their pass accuracy probably wasn't the best, meaning that you sometimes had to take no risks pass it back and smash the ball forward from the keeper. The trade off is, as you say, the stamina system should be interworked into this philosophy.

I use this phrase a lot, but there is no trade-off in football games. If you want to press fine, but it should only be allowed or realistic to do it in spurts. There should be a clear and noticeable drop off in something at the end of it, like obviously players getting tired pressing all the time, pass accuracy decreasing, and responsiveness and positioning being affected.

The trade off the other side is that a team may have to play quick nimble clear the ball football for a while whilst the opposition hounds them. Whatever the case, at least there is a trade off.

The CPU's default mode of countering should also come at a cost. A team camped entirely in it's own box should not be able to just play two passes easily to counter at will with masses of space. The lone CPU striker (who causes havoc nearly all the time) should be hounded by two or three defenders as the ball breaks forwards, keeping that pressure and penning the CPU back. So the CPU's tactics of defensive and counter come at a cost, and that is sustained pressure against them which again leads to mistakes in concentration etc.

The main problem I see, and it dates back to forever, is that EA and KONAMI don't really know how to programme difficulty and realism. Since Jesus was a boy, the way to make the game more difficult isn't making the CPU smarter, hold onto possession longer and ensure the tactical side is top notch, but rather to crank up pressure, CPU dribbling directness and scripting. This has just got to stop going into PES 2014.

Take Man City as an example, in PES 2013 loads of fast dribblers. And take a team like Chelsea. And because they have good dribbling skills their game is predominantly dribble with every player regardless if the ball gets lost or not. It's purepy a dribbling/directness numbers game, the more the dribble with lightening speed at you then eventually they will get by you. It's the lesser teams that play more football because they have less pace and less dribbling, when it should be the other way around. Just because top teams have great dribblers doesn't make them direct sprint whores all the time. What if I want to defend deep against City? I should be able to, and the game should shift in its patterns. Sustained long phases of possession from the CPU (City) with them unable to use sprint and dribbling because I've got 11 behind the ball.

KONAMI need to get right back to the tactical side of the game and it's trade offs, combined with a more skill/technical emphasis. By skill I mean the ability to shape and shift a player movements to lose a man instead of sprint whoring, using your body to shield the ball without Superstar level meaning that CPU players can just morph through you.

The laws of physics being bent and stat boosting should definitely not be used to make the game harder. What should make the game harder is the CPU's ability to keep possession longer, the human players tactical mistakes in terms of defensive positioning and other things that make the game more random. For example the ball needs to bounce more, it really should seem alive. First touches under pressure should be emphasised more if the player isn't really world class, there's a reason why the ball is played into midfield and then passes quick to the defenders even though seemingly the guy in midfield had some space to work with.

If you aren't a top class team, then possession football should be difficult, or at least trying to sculpt a possession style game should be difficult and a long process. Look at Liverpool for example. There's a reason why teams can't all play like Barce, in that it's fkin impossible to do so with such consistency all the time. Why do division two players lump it long from the full back for example, because A) he knows he hasn't the technical ability on the ball on a worse ground than the worlds best B) he doesn't want to lose possession and so plays the percentage game and C) because players around him haven't made themselves available for the pass because they don't want to be in a risky position.

All this is missing from current games. PES 2013 is a good game, very good on times. But average players should feel just like that, average. Both for the human and the CPU. That doesn't mean average players (in terms of raw stats) should be useless though, they may have other more defining characteristics like work rate, positioning skill etc which make them invaluable to the team. I shouldn't have Gareth fkin Barry or Carrick running at me left right and centre full throttle. Pace and dribbling mean nothing without close control and technical skill, and yet all of a sudden anyone fast has the finesse of Ronaldo and Messi.

And online....I mean oh my God...where do you start on this one?!? I for one don't venture online, but I can bet what it's like. The game needs to be stripped down, and if need be make it totally defensive/technical orientated. Make players re-learn the game again, make it almost impossible to use sprint.

Just my two cents....again :)
 
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nerf said:
Does PES really need four separate attributes to represent Passing? When I open the Player Bio in FIFA, why is the first page I see the Physical stats?
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I like a lot of attributes but of course only when it really works. I think it's good to have two attributes for short and two attributes for long passes. And i think a separate attribute for speed an accuracy make sense. But right now the difference between lets say 70-80 is way to small. It doesn't work very good.

I guess physical stats are so important because it's very difficult to simulate football genius on the basis of stats. It's way easier to calculate that player A runs faster then player B and this is the reason physical attributes matters that much in football games.
 
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Robbery said:
I like a lot of attributes but of course only when it really works. I think it's good to have two attributes for short and two attributes for long passes. And i think a separate attribute for speed an accuracy make sense.
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I tend to take the opposite perspective on attributes. I would simplify the technical attributes, but bring them more under the influence of mental attributes. For example, I would be perfectly happy to have one single 'Passing' (accuracy) attribute, but make things like Awareness (vision), Concentration (consistency) and overall Technique (purity of contact) become important factors in each pass, particularly more difficult passes.
 
Joining this conversation late. Overall, I really like PES 2013 and at it's best it really is a far superior pure soccer experience than any other hame I've ever played. As ccshopland so accurately observed, R2 is te path to soccer heaven and really forces you to make that balance between individual and team dynamics. Unfortunately, many of the issues from the last few posts here are still way too prevelant.

I think a lot of the problem comes from a simple factor, Konami believes that every match should be a challenge regardless of opponent. This thinking leads to AI programming which raises opponent abilities while decreasing my teammates all in the name of good old-fashioned "rubber-band" logic. While I get to the practice pitch on occassion, I prefer to learn and test skills and moves in a match setting and the best way to do this is by playing a great team (Barca, Spain, Classic teams, etc) against crappy teams. This is the way it's done in real life in the run-ups to major national tournaments or during club pre-season tune-ups. There is nothing wrong with easily winning these games 7, 9 or 10 nil w/o breaking a sweat and w/o your GK ever touching a ball or tested. Yet, Konami insists that the moment I go up 2-nil, the other team has to become Barca and my players have to become complete morons. Because I see this all the time, I am far ls willing to accept the pressure issues dicsussed a few posts ago. If I lose the ball in this situation, I have the feeling that the CPU is screwing me rather than playing effective, intelligent soccer.

There are many things that Konami can change, but I would start by gettig rid of the difficulty levels. Have a sim mode where everything is completely stat-based and realisitic (stamina, pressure effects, passing accuracy, etc). In this mode, "difficulty" is based on team match-up. You want a difficult match? Play as USA vs Spain. You want an easy match? Play as Classic Brazil vs China. Then you can have 2 levels of "arcade" mode, where stamina is like you see it now and all players can pass and do moves and the opponents play with beefed up stats. In arcade mode, you could change passing assistance levels and tweak other things to your liking.

These would then be the main filters on-line. Have lobbies for arcade mode and have lobbies for sim mode. I would also change how ranked matches are scored on-line. Have teams grouped in tiers. You play as Barca or other tier 1 team, you can only get 10 points for a win. A tie or loss and you lose 50 pts regardless of opponent. You play a tier 2 team and win you get 50 pts. You lose and you only lose 10 points (unless you play vs a tier 1 team in which case you don't lose any points). A system like this would encourage using lower tier teams as the risk/reward stakes play out.

Sorry to be rambling. Haven't posted in a while and really like this title despite the lingering PES flaws. Somewhere hiding here is the foundation for a tremendous soccer title that would be a dream come true to us. I really hope Konami are listening.
 
Is it just me or is playing the South American part of the game a lot more fun? It's probably crazy talk but it feels like there is less cheating as well. I just had a game with Grémio against Portuguesa, and there were two instances where the cpu missed absolute sitters. I had almost put down the pad the second time! Won the game 1-0 as well.
 
Been playing ML recently on Superstar with the new patch and am noticing a lot of little stuff that is really getting on my tits. I'm still just about enjoying it, I'm going well, but little gameplay issues are really getting my goat. Does anyone else find these?

- passing the ball to a team mate, but the cursor ignoring him and selecting the guy behind him meaning the COM runs in and takes the ball.

-the COM scoring the exact same low shot that curls around the outstretched arm of your keeper, always to his left hand side. It's like a cheap sweet spot the COM knows will work.

- using A to press with a defender, then intercepting the ball while you are still holding A, which instantly registers as a pass, the power bar instalty charges and he hammers the ball to no-one.

- every single COM clearance up the pitch always falls right to one of its own players. Every time.

- on the other hand, every one of your clearances, using the clear button (the shoot button) or just whacking it away using long pass, both ALWAYS result in the ball falling to the COM player. Every single time.

- keepers tipping the ball over the crossbar when they could easily catch the ball.

- When a COM keeper brings you down for a penalty, with him as the last man just as you were about to round him and score, which has happened three times in my ML now, he never even gets a yellow card let alone a red. Annoying when the keeper then steps up to save your penalty......

Anyone notice these or is it just me?
 
Agree LTFC its all been there since day 1. One would think these obvious things would catch the eye of the developer and be patched.


Played offline exhibition matches against Real madrid with Barca top player lastnight. This game requires a lot of patience and they need to stop that sillyness with the scripting. All 3 matches they played that throughpass from deep to Cronaldo and always always always he had a defender playing him a meter online and sanding tight on him. Poor dani alves I managed to get the ball before superman (well accoring to konami) and he was barged over from the back and the ball hammered at Valdes. You can't just run through a player konami!

Also jockeying him waiting for the right moment to tackle is like trying to catch a fucking whale with a fishing pole. We know he's the cover star but come now. He dribble ability is telepathic and he shoots with no backlift whatsoever.
 
Murphy talks about the new Patch comming 20 Dec.

https://www.konami-pes2013.com/en/2...-about-the-patch-1-03-and-changes-in-the-2v2/

The overall balance of the game has also been addressed, and we’ve also taken the opportunity to make a few aesthetic improvements here and there, with the movement of players now enhanced
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Means what? You know, this is getting on my nerves now. What means the overall balance has been addressed? In multiplayer or in singleplayer? What exactly have they done?

Stop talking nonsense and give us real informations.
 
Robbery said:
Murphy talks about the new Patch comming 20 Dec.

https://www.konami-pes2013.com/en/2...-about-the-patch-1-03-and-changes-in-the-2v2/



Means what? You know, this is getting on my nerves now. What means the overall balance has been addressed? In multiplayer or in singleplayer? What exactly have they done?

Stop talking nonsense and give us real informations.
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I agree lol. It's time for KONAMI to step out of the shadows with all this convoluted bullshit. I don't normally get wound up with anything PES any more but they simply have to change the way they do things in relation to PR going forward. If they want a clean break with 2014 then this quaint retro lost in translation bollocks has to end. Simple as that. If something has changed outline exactly what has changed.
 
ccshopland said:
Hmm, liked these settings. May persevere with them.

AND.....FK ME, I HAD A PENALTY..........

YouTube - PES 2013 - A penalty....at last!

It was saved, naturally, but I almost pulled out the balloons and party cake that the ref actually pointed to the spot.

I may start the game afresh and turn off player development too, it seems to nerf all the players directness by late first season, I can only imagine what the teams will be like by season 2 or 3.
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Glad you liked them. They practically saved the game for me.

Cheers!
 
I wish they'd patch some of the details in ML. Namely, player ratings and the amount of goals other teams score. Credit where credt's due, the player form is miles better in patch 1.02 but man, Nolito bagged 5 goals in one game and got a rating of 7.5.

Also, I'm now three points clear at the top of the Portuguese league, ahead of second placed Sporting after 14 games, and I've scored 34 conceded 14. By contrast, Sporting have only scored 11, conceding 4 (two of those against me), and third place have scored just 8 goals in 14 matches, conceding 3. My team kinda look silly with my tallies so vastly higher at this stage.

Also, does anyone else feel patch 1.02 on Superstar is, not easy, but more forgiving? I'm conceding a lot of bullshit goals which is to be expected, but when attacking, I'm hammering the game at the moment. I just recently won 8-1 away from home and with a number of ML defaults still in my team. I remember getting absolutely thumped on Superstar with version 1.1. I haven't improved that much! With ML defaults and free signings I've gone from Div 2 to top of the Liga Con Sagres in just one and a half seasons. Whether I stay there is another matter, but it seems so much more easy to score compared to the last patch.
 
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I won't copy-paste the entire thing here but I just made a post in the 2v2 petition thread about that interview with Jon:

http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2633831&postcount=48

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Whats the bettin it wont come out on the 20th or only will for the PS3 and there will be some issue stopping the 360 version or some bullshit like that?
 
What are 'improved player movements'? Are they animations or supposedly better player runs off the ball? I think it's the latter.

The patch sounds pretty uninteresting to be honest, no other ML fixes despite a ton of issues still existing, none of the issues I listed earlier on about on the field issues, but they have found time to add new player celebrations and put a PES fan who won some multiplayer tournament into the game. Brilliant.

Also, who reported issues with offsides to the extent that they decided to patch it? I've never once noticed a single issue with offsides, I think Konami are pretending to have read that survey. Of all the things fans want, changes to offsides and celebrations? Really?

How about fixing the fact that the ref almost never hands the CPU a red card if it does a professional foul, or how a keeper can bring you down as the last man and not get a card. Or the painfully shy amount of penalties the game awards? Or fixing the freakishly low goal totals of other teams in ML?

Their Facebook page is inundated with people complaining about the league mode being missing yet they totally ignore it again and claim everything is at the fan's request. I mean don't take the piss Konami, if you can't add it either for weird technical or contractual reasons then just say so. At least it'll stop dicking their own fans around by not leaving them hanging on to some vague hope it'll be patched in later on. Which it won't.
 
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Suuuuupertalk said:
Also, who reported issues with offsides to the extent that they decided to patch it? I've never once noticed a single issue with offsides, I think Konami are pretending to have read that survey. Of all the things fans want, changes to offsides and celebrations? Really?
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I've seen several wrong offside calls so it's good KONAMI cares about that problem.
 
I've sent him a link on Twitter but I think he's inactive on there since PES' release (surprise surprise), anyone know of an e-mail address he will reply to?

Maybe we should collectively try to get our views out there, after all, Konami would "be mad to" ignore us!
 
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