PES 2013 Discussion Thread

Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

You know one massive issue the whole PC debate is missing is that the Japanese market is dominated by consoles. The amount of people who use PCs for gaming is so much lower than it is in Europe or America. I'm pretty sure it's far more expensive to build good machines over there than here too given the price of components (that's something i've heard, i do not have any quotes). To overlook this is simply poor judgement. The idea that Konami, as a Japanese company, would release PES as PC-exclusive is as unfeasible idea as you can get.

If you can name me one modern Japanese developer who prioritises PC gaming over console gaming then i'll go out and buy a hat and digest it accordingly.
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jamezinho said:
Are you on the WENB forums still? I guess Adam himself may have some insight into why the graphics went downhill after 2010. Maybe Alan knows too. He posts here quite often.

An educated guess would be, as I said before, PES2011 couldn't handle PES2010 graphics coupled up with the new AI. This suggests to me that the engine PES is built on just isn't good enough for the current generation of consoles, a situation which should never have been allowed to happen.
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Yeah i still have an account there, think, I'll pass the message on.

The part in bold, please don't get so annoyed with Konami's incompetence, don't make the same mistake i made with FIFA, just accept it, understand why and just look for other things, i noticed games are much better when you play and experience whats there rather than get angry at whats not there.

The key is always the money, and it seems Konami have simply not been able to step up the budget to cope with the technical demands. Something i think i'll need to look into.

A pet hate of mine with PES is the blur effect that has been applied to the graphics. This was introduced with PES2011, the same year the graphics started to slide. Perhaps this is not simply a motion blur effect, but was implemented to hide some other graphical deficiencies?

Regarding atmosphere - surely this would be quite easy to improve upon? It's not like it can get any worse.
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Yes, something I'll ask about.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Northzzz said:
You know one massive issue the whole PC debate is missing is that the Japanese market is dominated by consoles. The amount of people who use PCs for gaming is so much lower than it is in Europe or America. I'm pretty sure it's far more expensive to build good machines over there than here too given the price of components (that's something i've heard, i do not have any quotes). To overlook this is simply poor judgement. The idea tha Konami, as a Japanese company, should release PES as PC-exclusive is as unfeasible idea as you can get.

The reason they choose console development is because that's where the audience and the money is. The same argument can be used for any developer in truth but the issue becomes more prominent in Japan given the ratio of people using gaming consoles to gaming PCs is multiplied vastly compared to the West, where it's obviously still pretty high.
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Thats how the world is run though made.

the key is ALWAYS the money, who funding what and what are their intentions. Usually to make profit, usually not giving a shit who's feet they step on or thinking about helping others!

Consoles are progressing like snails, i swear the PS4 should be out by now, but thy are still making so much money from the current gen, there's no need to upgrade it seems. Online gaming has so many so engrained into false achievement, they will just keep milking the cow.

You get these PC people creaming about how good PC games are yet, really they just the same as console games but with far better graphics, the AI isn't really any smarter at all.

Is gaming too big buisness for quality titles for all rather than Fast food, McDonalds' type gaming for consumers to use, get bore then buy into the hype of the next game or the next meal it seems?
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

klashman69 said:
Thats how the world is run though made.

the key is ALWAYS the money, who funding what and what are their intentions. Usually to make profit, usually not giving a shit who's feet they step on or thinking about helping others!

Consoles are progressing like snails, i swear the PS4 should be out by now, but thy are still making so much money from the current gen, there's no need to upgrade it seems. Online gaming has so many so engrained into false achievement, they will just keep milking the cow.

You get these PC people creaming about how good PC games are yet, really they just the same as console games but with far better graphics, the AI isn't really any smarter at all.

Is gaming too big buisness for quality titles for all rather than Fast food, McDonalds' type gaming for consumers to use, get bore then buy into the hype of the next game or the next meal it seems?
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I edited that out but you were too quick to reply. I thought it was a bit obvious that people are going to run to where the money is but you're essentially right.

I have no issue with the current consoles really, i play my PS3 as much as i use my PC for games, but the problem is that consoles just feel like really underpowered PCs at this point. The Xbox 360 and PS3 do nothing that my relatively decent PC could not, and it'd probably do it 10 times better too. When you think about it 7 year old specs is a long time in the fast moving world of technology. I think they ran out of ideas with those consoles a couple of years back (maybe the limit where developers could get the most of it them).

I personally think with the next generation of consoles we'll see something different. I don't think consoles can get away with being like underpowered PCs anymore given that the price of PC components seems to be getting lower each day and more and more people seem to be getting into PCs who otherwise would not have in previous generations. That's why i think the Wii is good, sure it doesn't have many good games but it feels like a console doing something different and serving some purpose despite it's low specs. It's not trying to be like a PC, there's actually a benefit to the console beyond the exclusive games. It's a shame that the console based most of its effort on family friendly games.

Developers seem to be more and more open to PC development too given the way things like Steam are opening up the possibility for cheaper distribution. Sure the games always end up as console ports but they usually look better and play smoother. I think it's pretty interesting how games like Dark Souls are being made for PC now. If they can get Japanese developers (Capcom and Sega aside) on-board then that's a pretty huge deal considering how console-based they generally have always been (as i pointed out in the other post).
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

klashman69 said:
The part in bold, please don't get so annoyed with Konami's incompetence, don't make the same mistake i made with FIFA, just accept it, understand why and just look for other things, i noticed games are much better when you play and experience whats there rather than get angry at whats not there.
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Oh, I'm not annoyed. What's done is done. I've actually been enjoying PES2012, much more so now I'm on the PC.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jamezinho said:
Oh, I'm not annoyed. What's done is done. I've actually been enjoying PES2012, much more so now I'm on the PC.
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Ooh phew lol :)

Thats good to hear.

I edited that out but you were too quick to reply. I thought it was a bit obvious that people are going to run to where the money is but you're essentially right.

I have no issue with the current consoles really, i play my PS3 as much as i use my PC for games, but the problem is that consoles just feel like really underpowered PCs at this point. The Xbox 360 and PS3 do nothing that my relatively decent PC could not, and it'd probably do it 10 times better too. When you think about it 7 year old specs is a long time in the fast moving world of technology. I think they ran out of ideas with those consoles a couple of years back (maybe the limit where developers could get the most of it them).

I personally think with the next generation of consoles we'll see something different. I don't think consoles can get away with being like underpowered PCs anymore given that the price of PC components seems to be getting lower each day and more and more people seem to be getting into PCs who otherwise would not have in previous generations. That's why i think the Wii is good, sure it doesn't have many good games but it feels like a console doing something different and serving some purpose despite it's low specs. It's not trying to be like a PC, there's actually a benefit to the console beyond the exclusive games. It's a shame that the console based most of its effort on family friendly games.

Developers seem to be more and more open to PC development too given the way things like Steam are opening up the possibility for cheaper distribution. Sure the games always end up as console ports but they usually look better and play smoother. I think it's pretty interesting how games like Dark Souls are being made for PC now. If they can get Japanese developers (Capcom and Sega aside) on-board then that's a pretty huge deal considering how console-based they generally have always been (as i pointed out in the other post).
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Hmm PES's issue could be that they aren't taking PC power into account enough. You know what i see no reason at all why they cant implement PES 2010's lighting system on the PC among other features.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

klashman69 said:
Hmm PES's issue could be that they aren't taking PC power into account enough. You know what i see no reason at all why they cant implement PES 2010's lighting system on the PC among other features.
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Maybe just some graphical optimisation for the PC version in the way of higher-res pitch textures, kits, etc.... eg. Battlefield 3 had HD textures on a separate disc for the 360 version.

I know these things can be improved via modding, but still, you know what I'm saying.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

1m47kc0f said:
Ping pong passing still exists. Which makes me think ping pong shooting and crossing are still there. Funny how Konami proudly include it in their trailers every year. This is something EA have been trying to fix every year, albeit slow, FIFA 13 is actually looking like a real football game.

First touch control, this is only going to add to arcady feel of PES , with players now knocking the ball up at every opportunity to lob a defender or perform an overhead. How many times you see that in real football?
Add the terrible animations and limited player individuality and the broke stamina system. GG.

I'm out

Edit: Forgot to mention the superhuman frame to frame contain defending. Already seen it in FIFA and it blows.
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poster above summed it all up nicely, this is pretty much what we're getting this year and it's nowhere near regaining crown or some other press BS, it actually looks like it continues to descend,

the worst part is that even early demo can be confusing and may be pretty much playable for couple days or weeks but in the end all of the flaws and shortcomings will be noticed, you can easily predict what will be discussed here after month or two after retail release...unfortunately :YAWN:

Fox Engine nextgen PES on the other hand...that could be a real deal like it was when they started from scratch in PS2 era, keepin tabs on this one definitely
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Jamezinho said:
Are you on the WENB forums still? I guess Adam himself may have some insight into why the graphics went downhill after 2010. Maybe Alan knows too. He posts here quite often.

An educated guess would be, as I said before, PES2011 couldn't handle PES2010 graphics coupled up with the new AI. This suggests to me that the engine PES is built on just isn't good enough for the current generation of consoles, a situation which should never have been allowed to happen.

A pet hate of mine with PES is the blur effect that has been applied to the graphics. This was introduced with PES2011, the same year the graphics started to slide. Perhaps this is not simply a motion blur effect, but was implemented to hide some other graphical deficiencies?

Regarding atmosphere - surely this would be quite easy to improve upon? It's not like it can get any worse.
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What was at least 'inferred' regarding PES2011 was that with the gameplay changing and the developers looking to implement a new method of putting animations into the game, something had to not so much give, but that they had to start from scratch with visual elements. With PES2012 it was inferred that fluidity was priority so again any enhancements to visuals (particularly from gameplay views) were not subject to further enhancement.

We know the story regarding PES2013 - that they toyed with the idea of bringing in at least new elements from a new engine but this was canned, so again the visuals are at least currently not what they should be and that might not change massively to bring them closer to what PES2010 offered.

All that reads worse than it really is to be honest. I don't think the devs would ever admit to anyone out with their own tight circle in Japan, but I think they might have looked at FIFA and reckoned it simply wasn't going to happen in this generation. Pure speculation on my part, of course, but I think they believed that if ever there was a time to just do the best with what resources they had regards tech and and instead look to innovate and experiment with new gameplay theory in order to establish a fresh base there, now was as good a time as any. It's pure opinion as to how folk think such experimentation since PES2011 has worked out when considering both PES2011 and PES2012 on their own merits, but I would say there have been some pretty vast changes to the make-up of the gameplay since PES2010 - some good, some not so good and some just needing more fleshed out or better optimised/balanced.



Jamezinho said:
Some of the shadows are overdone, too, such as at the Allianz. It's hard to see what's going on in the dark areas.

PES2010 had nice, juicy green pitch textures which probably helped give the day matches a brighter feel.
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In the latest podcast, Adam mentioned that onoe of the discussions they had with the developers was things like contrast and alike. Shortly after his return we went to work on a doc regards the overall visuals in PES and how they need to improve in specific areas. Funny that you mention it but one of the examples I offered was the shadows in the Allianz. I grabbed an image of the game from google at the Allianz and then performed some rather basic alterations using windows live image viewer in order to illustrate how the shadows could be improved. pics below :

Original

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Touched up w/ basic Live Viewer variables

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now, all I was trying to show here was that with some simple adjustment I was able to make it easier to maintain colour and detail in the shadowed area while still maintaining a decent shadow effect itself. Personally, I think I somehow managed to increase shadow detail regards the wee slits of light shining through parts of the roof. Like I say, it is crude but it was something we thought was worth feeding back.

I would also like to see options to increase/decrease the depth of the shade of green the turf as well as shadow adjustment that are independent of the standard brightness and colour sliders in the display options.

I also commented on how night time lighting needs to remove that rather cold/wet/reflective look throughout the visuals (ironically, if you a play a night match in the rain at the stadio olimpico it looks less ''wet'' than the default!) and for them to ''warm'' the image up a bit and heighten contrast a little more as I believe doing something like that might actually improve the games fluidity in night time matches.

I also submitted a stack of images from Blue Samurai (PES2010) to show how that games wide cam is arguably superior to the wide-cam angles found in '11 and '12. Man, I loved playing matches in that game at the Konami Stadium with it's lush green turf and beautiful contrast! No turf shade in either of '11 or '12 were as deep looking.

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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

I like what you've done with the Allianz image there, Alan. While it's obviously a little over-saturated, the image as a whole looks more realistic because of the more natural looking shadow. The pitch looks more playable as a result. Actually, I don't mind the brighter colours to be honest. A return to the vibrancy of PES2010 would be most welcome.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

only1ronaldo said:
poster above summed it all up nicely, this is pretty much what we're getting this year and it's nowhere near regaining crown or some other press BS, it actually looks like it continues to descend,

the worst part is that even early demo can be confusing and may be pretty much playable for couple days or weeks but in the end all of the flaws and shortcomings will be noticed, you can easily predict what will be discussed here after month or two after retail release...unfortunately :YAWN:

Fox Engine nextgen PES on the other hand...that could be a real deal like it was when they started from scratch in PS2 era, keepin tabs on this one definitely
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Did you play Pes 2013? :FAIL: It's ridiculous what you are talking about. You play FIFA and about PES you don't know nothing. You saw one video and you know everything about Pes 2013 ? What a BS. Go play FIFA and stop talking all the time bullshit how you love PES bla bla bla. You didn't see FIFA 13 but you know that game will be awesome.:YAWN:
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Wait a minute if they struggling to maintian things from a graphics perspectice howcome they can add things like a dumb guy in a sort running laps for 90 minutes.

I sell my old copies of PES so I can't tell for sure but I really don't think the graphics deteriorated.

Of course PC kicks ass but that's due to the hardware involved. PES2012s looks is the last thing that bothers me.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

I agree KONAMI need to look into the whole colour/vibrancy thing. Whilst I think that PES looks the more grown up of the two games in terms of player models/faces/stadia, FIFA does have the edge in terms of creating the day game sunshine atmosphere and a better night time feel.

I'm constantly battling with PES to achieve the perfect 3pm, sunny feel to games.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Well what Alan did with the Bayern stadium shows that it can't be that difficult to make PES look a little more vibrant and far less gloomy.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

So ? maybe new trailer tomorrow before E3 ? Like last year ?
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

lons_pl said:
Did you play Pes 2013? :FAIL: It's ridiculous what you are talking about. You play FIFA and about PES you don't know nothing. You saw one video and you know everything about Pes 2013 ? What a BS. Go play FIFA and stop talking all the time bullshit how you love PES bla bla bla. You didn't see FIFA 13 but you know that game will be awesome.:YAWN:
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I didn't even mention FIFA I could care less about it, you got issues :OOOH: that's not a judgement but rather a prediction of things to come, I've been there year ago and 2 years ago and it always ends the same, no point being optimistic even if I'd want to ; if you're playing your beloved PES with red tinted glasses -good for you, have fun, I for one am tired of being spoonfed with BS every year "gameplay wise PES will smash FIFA"
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Funny how you say you didn't mention FIFA but then you do, and that you're assuming people here don't think PES already smashed FIFA in gameplay.

Truth is, the game has been ever evolving. Several poor calls and decisions dampened the game's potential but that doesn't mean they've been lying to us.

You're sounding like one of those Youtube kiddies with your "rose tinted glasses" comments. Well done.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

only1ronaldo said:
I didn't even mention FIFA I could care less about it, you got issues :OOOH: that's not a judgement but rather a prediction of things to come, I've been there year ago and 2 years ago and it always ends the same, no point being optimistic even if I'd want to ; if you're playing your beloved PES with red tinted glasses -good for you, have fun, I for one am tired of being spoonfed with BS every year "gameplay wise PES will smash FIFA"
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Don't forget that EA talking BS every year like KONAMI with Pes. I don't see any difference:)) FIFA's gameplay for many people are the same crap like in Pes. Maybe for you FIFA is brillant game but for many is not. What is so superb in FIFA? Unrealistic collision system? Momentum? New camera? What? In my opinion you have glasses on your eyes because you look what people said about game, what revieres write about game and have many copy FIFA sells. You don't have your own style.
 
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Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

only1ronaldo said:
I didn't even mention FIFA I could care less about it, you got issues :OOOH: that's not a judgement but rather a prediction of things to come, I've been there year ago and 2 years ago and it always ends the same, no point being optimistic even if I'd want to ; if you're playing your beloved PES with red tinted glasses -good for you, have fun, I for one am tired of being spoonfed with BS every year "gameplay wise PES will smash FIFA"
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Now now, the biggest obstacle in PES development is gone for now, so you can at least be positive for once (I mean Seabass).

He has done all he could for PES and I am glad for past 2 decades of his games, but he burnt out of ideas, didn't know in which direction PES should go. Thus why I think PES 2008-2012 are fails as PES games and don't come close to PES5/WE9 in terms of joy and "realism" ;).

Kei can pull stuff he did with PES3, so I am expecting A LOT now. Hopefully this game will be heaps better than PES 2011/2012... Can only be seen, I guess :).
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

PES 2013 wouldn't be much difference because it uses the same game engine that uses PES 2012 with the same limitation. So, don't get your hopes high ;)

PES 2014 is what I think could be different than PES 2012 and 2013 because of the different game engine they are using which has Natural Motion physics engine and a nice pathfinding engine.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

It won't be any different in technical terms, but that doesn't mean the gameplay can't be great.

Obviously if all you care about are shiny animations, then there's nothing new for you in PES 2013.
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

Mehtab said:
PES 2013 wouldn't be much difference because it uses the same game engine that uses PES 2012 with the same limitation. So, don't get your hopes high ;)

PES 2014 is what I think could be different than PES 2012 and 2013 because of the different game engine they are using which has Natural Motion physics engine and a nice pathfinding engine.
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LOL and you believe you will see FOX engine next year? Dude... New consoles will come out in 2015/2016, so it's still some time to wait.

I believe Kei can turn sh*t into gold (like with good old ISS core :P).
 
Re: PES 2013 Discussion Thread .......

As we were talking about Fox Engine and PES nextgen few posts ago, I think you guys should look at the new WiiU.

Kojima Team has been working on this new engine for years to make sure that it's an accessible and more multiplatform engine, so the WiiU could possibily run it nicely and may be the first new console to have a nextgen version of PES, an alternative to play it on a videogame for those who don't like PC for games (like myself).
 
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