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PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

sincover said:
One thing that they haven't changed is the AI's passing success rate. It's almost always near 100%. Even AI players with techniques of D have the success rate of Xavi or Guti in his heyday.

I like what they have done to the player's passing accuracy; sometimes it's underhit or behind the target which produces a lot more dynamism.

It's frustrating that Konami clearly understands this aspect of football, but always fails to implement it properly for those of us who only play singleplayer.
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I totally agree..
In real football overall pass accuracy never exceeds the value of 75%-80%
konami should adapt the gameplay to these values
 
Anyone else having trouble with pass aiming? Can't seem to aim correctly, passes going to the wrong player very often.. I tried full manual pass and still can't seem to get the grip.. sometimes I just tap the pass button and it still goes for a further player ahead..

Might have to do with me just now switching to the Analog stick as I always played with the D-pad in PES2011.
 
Interista said:
Anyone else having trouble with pass aiming? Can't seem to aim correctly, passes going to the wrong player very often.. I tried full manual pass and still can't seem to get the grip.. sometimes I just tap the pass button and it still goes for a further player ahead..

Might have to do with me just now switching to the Analog stick as I always played with the D-pad in PES2011.
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The analog stick is quite sensitive to pass direction I've noticed. For me just going from xbox to ps3 when playing fifa really messes with my pass accuracy at first due to analog sticks at different positions, so take some time to get used to it and it will get better.
 
fideco said:
I totally agree..
In real football overall pass accuracy never exceeds the value of 75%-80%
konami should adapt the gameplay to these values
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Just this weekend, Man Utd completed 454/524 passes against Arsenal - 87%. Arsenal completed 325/394 at 82%. For Tottenham and Man City it was 80% and 88% respectively.

The last games of last season, Man Utd completed 86% of their passes to Blackpool's 83%, and Everton completed 81% to Chelsea's 86%.

Last season's pass completion averages by team:
mUJZo.jpg


I agree that the passing is too accurate/on-rails at the moment, and it's obvious the passing assistance bug is much to blame for this (though you'd hope the amount of CPU error would scale up to replace user error). But you can't just scale against pass completion stats over a match because that tells you nothing about the types of passes involved. A 5 yard pass counts as much as a 50 yard pass, and a lot of the teams that are lower down that table above are teams that play more direct football. But then when a new manager comes along that plays a very different, more pass-oriented style, you often find the team's percentages go up, even if they have much the same players. So the only way to judge how accurate/inaccurate passes should be is to look at the passes involved in far more detail than just a collection of numbers.

It's an over-reliance on numbers that has broken the back of English football in the form of Watford and Charles Reep, who misinterpreted data and convinced key English footballing figures that the fewer passes you made, the more likely you were to score.
 
Bit off topic ( although it is about PES 2012 ):
Is here somebody who knows an online shop in Germany where I can buy PES 2012? I live in Holland and I don't want to wait until 14 october...
 
Ximenez said:
What "sheer variation" do we get with a long ball?

And crossing is only "improved" because it is too easy. Too easy because the defence is awful at getting back into position, and they simply don't have enough scope to do proper clearances. And your strikers end up running past a lot of the crosses. Crossing used to be hard; an art. You had to think about the position of defender and attacker, where you are on the field and what cross type to use. Now, you just hit circle. I don't even try to aim them anymore. If the striker misses it, the guy arriving late is putting it in. Not enough margin for error and another feature Konami continuously dumb down to suit the masses.
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The long ball now has more directions,variation and can be used now as effectively as short passing.The physics have been massively improved and body and foot position can be used to create some fantastic angles and plays along with the way players now head the ball.Balls can be driven into space behind the defence and its now very effective on counter attacks and when you want to be very direct.

Crossing is now more contexual and is effected by how much you lean into the ball with the player,power and direction.Its not just a case of pressing circle,you can control the tradjectory and placement with your player.You can also wip it in more from extreme angles on the wings and it doesnt home in like pes2011.You also dont have to triple tap now for low crosses as these can now be generated with stick control and less power.

I was a massive ISS fan back in the day on the n64 which used the exact crossing and long ball system.I can do things with this demo that i have never been able to do with any previous pes.

Pes even since the ps2 has had a very automated crossing system and long passing system thats always been simple and pandered to the masses and the limitations of the d-pad.Now finally we have something more akin to the freedom the was afforded to us back on the n64.
 
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So am I the only one who does not get inch perfect passes every time? Multiple times in a match I will get passes underhit, overhit, off target and to the wrong person. Sure there could be more error but its far from perfect. Maybe its the people that play with Man U, Milan ect that experience this. Play a few games with Penarol and keep returning to the team select screen until you get quite a few of the players with poor condition, then you will see how good the game should be. The game could still have more error though but I can just imagine the sstick Konami would get if there was.
 
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Alexbeckhs said:
As i said guys, it is absolutely NONSENSE to state LOD this year has worsened,
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wiking76 said:
i agree with you.. no bad lod this year
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Tunizizou said:
Yes , LOD is good this year , you can notice it during Free Kick ;) (no more bad face)
But blur during gameplay and during replays should be removed .
We can't apppreciate the great PES graphism with this bad effect
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hello mates
i actually felt the need to post on this point as some mates here claimed the opposite , and i guess i've the right to comment on this and "for other peoples" who think opposite to the above mentioned claims


and i think my point will be explained through answering 3 questions :
1- 1st question
is pes 2012 1st demo has graphics equal/better/worse" than pes 2011 "a mate a bove wrote something like "worseR" a funny grammar mistake indeed

and the answer should be linked with at least some screenshots of both games from the same pc at the same resolution and graphic level

pes 2011 screen shot "wide cam"
2ylmvrp.jpg


pes 2012 demo screen shot "wide cam"
33ytixy.jpg

i think it's very easy now to answer the above question
if u look at the player standing close to the screen with the number and name on the shirt back , u can hardly see these kind of details in pes 2012 demo screenshot while it's well evident in the pes 2011 screen shot


2-2nd question
what is the cause of such graphical difference?
since the demo is out i heared a lot of explanations for this graphical downgrade in pes 2012 demo . some stated that there's some sort of blur , some said it's just a low level of details on wide cam "LOD"

to answer this question we should know at 1st what is "blur" ?

in gaming industry there is 2 kinds of blur:

a) motion blur
heavily used in pes 2011 replay system
and from Wikipedia its definition : Motion blur is the apparent streaking of rapidly moving objects in a still image or a sequence of images such as a movie or animation. It results when the image being recorded changes during the recording of a single frame, either due to rapid movement or long exposure.

from the above mention now u conclude that motion blur has nothing to do with the steady animation or image quality while threre's no actual movement" and as the above screens are taken even before the game begins then it's impossible that the cause of this graphical affection is the motion blur

b)Gaussian blur: which i think has been mentioned before
Wikipedia definition : It is a widely used effect in graphics software, typically to reduce image noise and reduce detail.
now neither me nor the guy mentioned this as a possible cause can assure 100% that it's the main cause of the poor wide cam graphics

but i have my reason not to believe that konami implemented Gaussian blur to worsen the gameplay graphics

:as highlighted in bold above that Gaussian blur's main result is to "reduce the details" so i find it non-nlogic for konami to produce the game with normal level of details then reduce it by this Gaussian filter as the gameplay smoothness will be affected in this case by applying a blur filter to already high detailed object , although they can achieve the same result by just lowering the "level of details" LOD moreover increasing the fluidity and gamelay smoothness by such downgraded details level

even if the opinion of the Gaussian blur filter being used by konami in pes 2012 is right it's actually runs in the same direction , as saying that there's blurry graphics in pes 201n and that a Gaussian blur filter is used simply means that there's something wrong with graphics and level of details because simply Gaussian blur means low level of details "LOD" as highlighted above


3-3rd question:
why did some here say that pes 2012 demo has low LOD while we can see player faces well in replays , tucked and untucked shirts and so on
and the answer is konami like any other game developper doesn't settle on a single LOD for the whole game but there's different LOD values for the different game situations
-LOD of players during entrance scene
-LOD of players during highlights and replays
-LOD of players during free kicks
-LOD of referees during replays
-LOD of referees during gameplay
-LOD of players during gameplay
even the LOD for the gameplay cam has 3 different levels of details among which the game switches freely during gamelay for every individual player according to his distance from the screen "game cam"

so to say that the replays have good graphics is completely unrelated to what we discuss about the gameplay LOD


now to summarize all the post
the cause of such poor wide cam gameplay graphics is low LOD which may be due to either :

1-konami used low resolution textures in the demo leading to poor LEVEL OF DETAILS to reduce the demo file size
OR
2-KONAMI has decided to lower the players LOD in gameplay to help to maximize the fluidity and smoothness of gameplay "as we all felt 1st time we play this game"
OR
3-konami allowed the gameplay to run at the usual "gameplay LOD" then lowered it again by using Gaussian blur filter to make the gameplay widecam image more realistic

but to describe what some people said about game having a lower gameplay level of details being a "non sense" is surprisingly unjustifiable IMHO

sorry for long post and for the scientific complexities in it
 
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Expander said:
you can control the tradjectory and placement with your player.
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:APPLAUD: I wonder how many people miss this point about the game. Its not just crosses either I think that most passing is sensitive to body position and the pass you are trying to preform. I have seen Ganso play some lovely balls diagonally over the top with the outside of his boot, if I was to try that with most of the Penarol players the ball would just go in a straight line because they arent as gifted, to play a similar ball I would have to change the body position of the player. This happens to me alot when trying to play a ball over the defense with Pacheo, often it will go straight because I am just in a button mashing frame of mind and not trying to create the right angles with the players body. When I really concentrate on this the game plays much better.
 
Ern Dog said:
So am I the only one who does not get inch perfect passes every time? Multiple times in a match I will get passes underhit, overhit, off target and to the wrong person. Sure there could be more error but its far from perfect. Maybe its the people that play with Man U, Milan ect that experience this. Play a few games with Penarol and keep returning to the team select screen until you get quite a few of the players with poor condition, then you will see how good the game should be. The game could still have more error though but I can just imagine the sstick Konami would get if there was.
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Good post. I too perform & encounter bad passes to the frequency I'd expect. And there is noticeable difference between the passing from players in good or bad form. Also the quality of the team makes a reasonable difference.

As for those discussing the graphics, the demo was compressed in size so comparisons to the full game of PES 2011 are premature. My laptop shows more LOD, runs smoother for the new demo than the full PES 2011 ever did, but it could all change.
 
Ern Dog said:
:APPLAUD: I wonder how many people miss this point about the game. Its not just crosses either I think that most passing is sensitive to body position and the pass you are trying to preform. I have seen Ganso play some lovely balls diagonally over the top with the outside of his boot, if I was to try that with most of the Penarol players the ball would just go in a straight line because they arent as gifted, to play a similar ball I would have to change the body position of the player. This happens to me alot when trying to play a ball over the defense with Pacheo, often it will go straight because I am just in a button mashing frame of mind and not trying to create the right angles with the players body. When I really concentrate on this the game plays much better.
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Absolutely,this game is just on a completely different level to anything thats come before.I feel now that i can play total football.The better you play and the more creative you are the more your team respond and spring into life.

You get out what you put in and this game rewards skill and timing.
 
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Expander said:
Crossing is now more contexual and is effected by how much you lean into the ball with the player,power and direction.Its not just a case of pressing circle,you can control the tradjectory and placement with your player.You can also wip it in more from extreme angles on the wings and it doesnt home in like pes2011.You also dont have to triple tap now for low crosses as these can now be generated with stick control and less power.

I was a massive ISS fan back in the day on the n64 which used the exact crossing and long ball system.I can do things with this demo that i have never been able to do with any previous pes.

Pes even since the ps2 has had a very automated crossing system and long passing system thats always been simple and pandered to the masses and the limitations of the d-pad.Now finally we have something more akin to the freedom the was afforded to us back on the n64.
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Does somebody want to tell me what this guy is on about? Your posts often come across as fantastical but i truly have no idea how you can be describing the crossing system in PES. Contextual? Yeah all those 150 degree turn crosses i can make are soooo contextual. They don't have the same trajectory or power as crosses i make when facing towards the box or anything. I'm going to call you out because you specifically mentioned player positioning was a factor when crossing whereas i, and i would like to know if others do too because i don't think they do either, actually don't see this at all. What did you even mean when you said crossing is affected by how much you lean into the ball?
 
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Northzzz said:
Does somebody want to tell me what this guy is on about? Your posts often come across as fantastical but i truly have no idea how you can be describing the crossing system in PES. Contextual? Yeah all those 150 degree turn crosses i can make are soooo contextual. They don't have the same trajectory or power as crosses i make when facing towards the box or anything. I'm going to call you out because you specifically mentioned player positioning was a factor whereas i, and i would like to know if others do too, actually see this at all or if it is just you because you seem to be the only one mentioning it.
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Im not going to explain something that took me and a mate over seven years to master in the iss and perfect striker series on the n64.

Put the time in and then we can have this conversation.Its all about feel and understanding the dynamics.

You see pes2012 isnt a million miles away from what MAJORa where doing back on the n64.Its the same nucleaus just re-invented or re-engineered.Im in dream land.
 
Expander said:
Im not going to explain something that took me and a mate over seven years to master in the iss and perfect striker series on the n64.

Put the time in and then we can have this conversation.Its all about feel and understanding the dynamics.

You see pes2012 isnt a million miles away from what MAJORa where doing back on the n64.Its the same nucleaus just re-invented or re-engineered.Im in dream land.
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If you're not going to explain it then why bother mentioning it. It's not as if it wasn't a controversial thing to say because you were directly arguing with Ximelez who firstly purported that he thought crossing had little variation.

Were you talking about manual crossing?
 
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Northzzz said:
If you're not going to explain it then why bother mentioning it. It's not as if it wasn't a controversial thing to say because you were directly arguing with Ximelez who firstly purported that he thought crossing had little variation.
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But shorly the fun is discovering and learning it yourself.

I wasnt arguing,im just not wrong about this one and was re-iterating my point.
 
Script on this game scream on my face. Terrible, completey terrible.

It's been useless to understand the defence mechanics if the ball will go to cpu player again.
 
Hany, just compare the ingame 3D Models of both pes2011 and pes2012, If you look carefully you can see that pes2012 has way more details left, tucked/untucked shirts, arms well defined (you can even see where the sleeves ends!), faces recognizable...
When i'm talking of LOD, i'm talking of 3D models, i already said that the blur is an issue, and i wasnt talking about that.

Edit: okay here i post a picture (its a pes2009 one, but the lod (3D MODELS) in pes2010/11 are quite the same)

lodcheckup1.jpg


Look at the picture on the left, you can see how bad it was (these models were used also in the IN-PLAY), look at the arms, they seem to be burnt, and what about the faces...?

All details that have been changed in pes2012, you just have to look carefully while playing to notice all the improvements i've already quoted. ;)
 
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DuduBR9 said:
Script on this game scream on my face. Terrible, completey terrible.

It's been useless to understand the defence mechanics if the ball will go to cpu player again.
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Theres no scripting now and this game is balanced perfectly between attack and defence.If your down in a game you have to earn the rub by moving the ball,keeping possesion and playing intelligent football.Let the ball do the work.

You dont even have to use r2(jockey)or the overly automated shadowing mechanic.Soft hands,good stick control and timing the point in which you tackle is key.Dont press to much,try to fill the passing channels and destroy any danger at its source.

Dont get sucked into the ball carrier and always maintain your shape and above all keep your defence in front of the opposition dont let them get in behind you.Try to build slowly and make sure any players that have overlapped dont loose the ball.

Hope this helps,because defendings a art and works like real life.

Also the real art of this game is to get players to link up or play off each other,the more you use this dynamic the more the ai will respond and adapt to this type of play.

The ai is very reactive,and will respond to what your doing and the type of football you play.If your just stabbing buttons and forcing it the game will punish you.
 
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Northzzz said:
Does somebody want to tell me what this guy is on about? Your posts often come across as fantastical but i truly have no idea how you can be describing the crossing system in PES. Contextual? Yeah all those 150 degree turn crosses i can make are soooo contextual. They don't have the same trajectory or power as crosses i make when facing towards the box or anything. I'm going to call you out because you specifically mentioned player positioning was a factor when crossing whereas i, and i would like to know if others do too because i don't think they do either, actually don't see this at all. What did you even mean when you said crossing is affected by how much you lean into the ball?
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I agree, remember Expander's crazy aftertouch theory for PES 2011? :LOL:
 
To be fair, that's quantity. As the aftertouch business and the monumental flip-flopping last year showed, quality and quantity are very different.
 
romagnoli said:
To be fair, that's quantity. As the aftertouch business and the monumental flip-flopping last year showed, quality and quantity are very different.
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But are stand by what i said about the we demo last year against the dumbed down version that made it to market.

Just as i will the issues with the ai and collision physics that i openly raised.

Different animal this year though rom,light years ahead of pes2011,and pes2012 would greatly benefit from a aftertouch system.

Last year i stuck my neck out for a game i really beleived in because i could see where it was going and the direction konami were taking.I wasnt wrong and despite all its short comings it won you and rob back over from fifa.
 
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I love how whenever someone posts a video of the CPU breaking hips and scoring goals, someone posts a response on why that shouldn't happen.

It's the goddamn CPU! How unfair are YOU being. Now, if defending issues were online, I'm sure we could start a fire somewhere.
 
DuduBR9 said:
Script on this game scream on my face. Terrible, completey terrible.

It's been useless to understand the defence mechanics if the ball will go to cpu player again.
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What is the problem ? I sometimes succeed also fail dispossesing
Cpu ai using the improved def. Mechanic in 2012. Pretty happy with the responsiveness tho
 
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